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Post by eurowatch on May 19, 2018 20:30:28 GMT
But we would already have France and England to help us. If there is a buffer state we need it would be eastwards, since the Thirty-years war is already tearing the Holy Roman Empire to pieces and potentially start a very big stream of migrants. England and France will betray us as, especially France who will not be happy with is going to happen 150 years from now and England just saw a rival appear they might not be able to beat. If England tries anything then we Will just have to pull the Medway Raid fourty years early. As for France, after seeing the Spaniards getting steamrolled they would be foolish to think they have a chance. Cardinal Richelieu had as first priority to protect French power and pissing off the superpower next door would be counterproductive to that goal. Louise XIV might try something though considering he was a bit of a warmonger. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 19, 2018 20:39:49 GMT
England and France will betray us as, especially France who will not be happy with is going to happen 150 years from now and England just saw a rival appear they might not be able to beat. If England tries anything then we Will just have to pull the Medway Raid fourty years early. As for France, after seeing the Spaniards getting steamrolled they would be foolish to think they have a chance. Cardinal Richelieu had as first priority to protect French power and pissing off the superpower next door would be counterproductive to that goal. Louise XIV might try something though considering he was a bit of a warmonger. Question are any foreign citizens also transported to the past who where in 2018 Netherlands, also we have a huge stockpile of american vehicles we can borrow: Prepositioned equipment site officially opens in Netherlands, i also see the Royal Netherlands Navy re-commission many former vessels, i know of 4 Dokkum-class minesweepers, that can be armed with machine guns if needed, i think there are many other ships that might be able to use. |
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Post by eurowatch on May 19, 2018 21:01:00 GMT
If England tries anything then we Will just have to pull the Medway Raid fourty years early. As for France, after seeing the Spaniards getting steamrolled they would be foolish to think they have a chance. Cardinal Richelieu had as first priority to protect French power and pissing off the superpower next door would be counterproductive to that goal. Louise XIV might try something though considering he was a bit of a warmonger. Question are any foreign citizens also transported to the past who where in 2018 Netherlands, also we have a huge stockpile of american vehicles we can borrow: Prepositioned equipment site officially opens in Netherlands, i also see the Royal Netherlands Navy re-commission many former vessels, i know of 4 Dokkum-class minesweepers, that can be armed with machine guns if needed, i think there are many other ships that might be able to use. Given the popularity of Dutch tourist spots, quite a few tourists would have hitched a ride. The KM Will defenitly have to expand since six frigates, four mini-frigates and four submarines are not going to be enough to protect the tradelanes. Re-commisioning some of the older ships would be a good stopgap measure but De Schelde Will have to start cranking out new destroyers pretty quickly. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 19, 2018 21:17:04 GMT
Question are any foreign citizens also transported to the past who where in 2018 Netherlands, also we have a huge stockpile of american vehicles we can borrow: Prepositioned equipment site officially opens in Netherlands, i also see the Royal Netherlands Navy re-commission many former vessels, i know of 4 Dokkum-class minesweepers, that can be armed with machine guns if needed, i think there are many other ships that might be able to use. Given the popularity of Dutch tourist spots, quite a few tourists would have hitched a ride. The KM Will defenitly have to expand since six frigates, four mini-frigates and four submarines are not going to be enough to protect the tradelanes. Re-commisioning some of the older ships would be a good stopgap measure but De Schelde Will have to start cranking out new destroyers pretty quickly. , you make it sound so easy, you do know that by 2018 most of the Royal Netherlands Navy ships where constructed at Romania's Damen Shipyards Galati then tow to the Netherlands for last fitting of systems, also while we could build destroyers (we call them frigates in the Netherlands as out government does not like the term destroyers anymore) they would have no guns ore anti ship missiles ore even anti air missiles (not needed in 1621 i think) as most of them where build in the former United States of America, also it takes almost 4 years to build a single ship. Best the 4 Dokkum-class minesweepers and the 6 Alkmaar class-minesweepers (i think we have another 6 waiting to be sold, thus making it 12 Alkmaar class) and turn them into gun boats who armed with 20 mm machine gun and added with some marines armed with Panzerfaust 3 (we do not need to hunt tanks in 1621, thus we can use them to attack wooden ships with) and we have a nice patrol fleet.  |
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Post by eurowatch on May 19, 2018 21:35:48 GMT
Given the popularity of Dutch tourist spots, quite a few tourists would have hitched a ride. The KM Will defenitly have to expand since six frigates, four mini-frigates and four submarines are not going to be enough to protect the tradelanes. Re-commisioning some of the older ships would be a good stopgap measure but De Schelde Will have to start cranking out new destroyers pretty quickly. , you make it sound so easy, you do know that by 2018 most of the Royal Netherlands Navy ships where constructed at Romania's Damen Shipyards Galati then tow to the Netherlands for last fitting of systems, also while we could build destroyers (we call them frigates in the Netherlands as out government does not like the term destroyers anymore) they would have no guns ore anti ship missiles ore even anti air missiles (not needed in 1621 i think) as most of them where build in the former United States of America, also it takes almost 4 years to build a single ship. Best the 4 Dokkum-class minesweepers and the 6 Alkmaar class-minesweepers (i think we have another 6 waiting to be sold, thus making it 12 Alkmaar class) and turn them into gun boats who armed with 20 mm machine gun and added with some marines armed with Panzerfaust 3 (we do not need to hunt tanks in 1621, thus we can use them to attack wooden ships with) and we have a nice patrol fleet. There is also the possibility of just having the 1621 ships keep doing their duty until they can be replaced With new ships. Giving them armour plating would already make them pretty much invincible by the standards of the time. But weapon Production is going to have to be resumed anyway so building 127mm cannons Will have to be included. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 19, 2018 21:47:59 GMT
eurowatch , you make it sound so easy, you do know that by 2018 most of the Royal Netherlands Navy ships where constructed at Romania's Damen Shipyards Galati then tow to the Netherlands for last fitting of systems, also while we could build destroyers (we call them frigates in the Netherlands as out government does not like the term destroyers anymore) they would have no guns ore anti ship missiles ore even anti air missiles (not needed in 1621 i think) as most of them where build in the former United States of America, also it takes almost 4 years to build a single ship. Best the 4 Dokkum-class minesweepers and the 6 Alkmaar class-minesweepers (i think we have another 6 waiting to be sold, thus making it 12 Alkmaar class) and turn them into gun boats who armed with 20 mm machine gun and added with some marines armed with Panzerfaust 3 (we do not need to hunt tanks in 1621, thus we can use them to attack wooden ships with) and we have a nice patrol fleet. There is also the possibility of just having the 1621 ships keep doing their duty until they can be replaced With new ships. Giving them armour plating would already make them pretty much invincible by the standards of the time. But weapon Production is going to have to be resumed anyway so building 127mm cannons Will have to be included. Well we do have Batavia werf, they have the expertise and the skills to teach and allow us to build ships of the 1600s period, also we have the Batavia, a replica of here namesake that sank in 1629 of the coast of Australia, i think there might also be Amsterdam a replica, both can be used as auxiliary cruisers, armed with machine guns and anti-tanks missiles, i think any ships that gets to close to them will get a big surprise. Batavia Amsterdam
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Post by eurowatch on May 19, 2018 22:07:48 GMT
There is also the possibility of just having the 1621 ships keep doing their duty until they can be replaced With new ships. Giving them armour plating would already make them pretty much invincible by the standards of the time. But weapon Production is going to have to be resumed anyway so building 127mm cannons Will have to be included. Well we do have Batavia werf, they have the expertise and the skills to teach and allow us to build ships of the 1600s period, also we have the Batavia, a replica of here namesake that sank in 1629 of the coast of Australia, i think there might also be Amsterdam a replica, both can be used as auxiliary cruisers, armed with machine guns and anti-tanks missiles, i think any ships that gets to close to them will get a big surprise. BataviaAmsterdam
Or windjammers, wh ich would be more effective as cargo ships and gun platforms then the galeons of the time. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 20, 2018 9:38:31 GMT
Well we do have Batavia werf, they have the expertise and the skills to teach and allow us to build ships of the 1600s period, also we have the Batavia, a replica of here namesake that sank in 1629 of the coast of Australia, i think there might also be Amsterdam a replica, both can be used as auxiliary cruisers, armed with machine guns and anti-tanks missiles, i think any ships that gets to close to them will get a big surprise. BataviaAmsterdam
Or windjammers, wh ich would be more effective as cargo ships and gun platforms then the galeons of the time. That could work i think. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 20, 2018 9:50:50 GMT
But we would already have France and England to help us. If there is a buffer state we need it would be eastwards, since the Thirty-years war is already tearing the Holy Roman Empire to pieces and potentially start a very big stream of migrants. England and France will betray us as, especially France who will not be happy with is going to happen 150 years from now and England just saw a rival appear they might not be able to beat.
England at this point is still friendly, albeit with some rivalries and also isn't as powerful as the 1621 Netherlands in many ways so having the new Dutch leap out of sight probably wouldn't be that big a problem. How the Stuarts react to the history books they read is going to be problematic however. You could end up triggering an earlier civil war, one which the monarchy could win and a continuing autocratic state. 
The problem for France is less what happens in 150 years than that a predominantly Protestant super-power has appeared while their in the midst of serious religious division, although admittedly the Edict of Nantes is in place currently and possibly it might prompt a king to break with the counter-reformation enough to promote full tolerance. Especially if Spain has got splatted, which greatly removes the threat from that power. Doubly so if their removed from the southern Netherlands and possibly as a result their other Rhenish territories, such as the Franche-Comté. Also if I recall correctly the southern Netherlands included areas that are now part of Picardy although they may have come under French control prior to this point. [Quickly checking an historical atlas and it looks like those northern regions were still part of the Spanish Netherlands after the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 so they may well stay 'Dutch' this time around.]
It would be interesting and rather odd having a previous Dutch leaders and independence hero ruling the new southern lands but might be the best way of doing it. Although by this time how Catholic was the south, as the Spanish managed to largely root out Calvinism I believe and how Protestant was William? Could be some nasty religious tension there.
As Eurowatch says the big issue, once Spain has been slapped down, is the cluster-f**k ongoing in central Europe and neighbouring areas, especially given the intolerance of the period and the views of the modern Dutch. Who are likely to be seen as satanic in their values by all sides in 1621!
Also what is the Dutch reaction going to be to its overseas possessions and also the assorted traders/privateers all over the place. Still have New Amsterdam and starting to secure control over the spice islands as well as colonies elsewhere. Forget exactly when the Netherlands occupied a good part of northern Brazil. Also what is the status of the 2018 Dutch overseas possessions? Do you still have any and if so have they been brought along for the ride or are they in 1621 mode?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 20, 2018 10:00:52 GMT
Also what is the Dutch reaction going to be to its overseas possessions and also the assorted traders/privateers all over the place. Still have New Amsterdam and starting to secure control over the spice islands as well as colonies elsewhere. Forget exactly when the Netherlands occupied a good part of northern Brazil. Also what is the status of the 2018 Dutch overseas possessions? Do you still have any and if so have they been brought along for the ride or are they in 1621 mode?
I think Caribbean Netherlands is what you mean stevep , as the islands of Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba are special municipalities (Dutch: bijzondere gemeenten) who carry many of the functions normally performed by Dutch municipalities, thus i can assume they are also transported back into 1621. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 20, 2018 10:25:13 GMT
Also what is the Dutch reaction going to be to its overseas possessions and also the assorted traders/privateers all over the place. Still have New Amsterdam and starting to secure control over the spice islands as well as colonies elsewhere. Forget exactly when the Netherlands occupied a good part of northern Brazil. Also what is the status of the 2018 Dutch overseas possessions? Do you still have any and if so have they been brought along for the ride or are they in 1621 mode?
I think Caribbean Netherlands is what you mean stevep , as the islands of Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba are special municipalities (Dutch: bijzondere gemeenten) who carry many of the functions normally performed by Dutch municipalities, thus i can assume they are also transported back into 1621.
That's what I was thinking of. Wasn't sure if you still had a few territories in the region. Their going to have an interesting time, especially since there are probably other powers, most likely Spain, who owned or claimed them in 1621 and is going to be less than happy with their sudden appearance and also possibly their apparent vulnerability. This could be another likely source of conflict as if the Caribbean Netherlands have immediate communications with home the Spanish viceroys won't.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 20, 2018 10:30:29 GMT
I think Caribbean Netherlands is what you mean stevep , as the islands of Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba are special municipalities (Dutch: bijzondere gemeenten) who carry many of the functions normally performed by Dutch municipalities, thus i can assume they are also transported back into 1621. That's what I was thinking of. Wasn't sure if you still had a few territories in the region. Their going to have an interesting time, especially since there are probably other powers, most likely Spain, who owned or claimed them in 1621 and is going to be less than happy with their sudden appearance and also possibly their apparent vulnerability. This could be another likely source of conflict as if the Caribbean Netherlands have immediate communications with home the Spanish viceroys won't.
Yep, especially Bonaire as it has a airport ( Flamingo International Airport) that can handle large jet aircraft, i see the Nederlands sending marines and army units there to keep Caribbean Netherlands free from Spain. |
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Post by stevep on May 20, 2018 10:42:21 GMT
That's what I was thinking of. Wasn't sure if you still had a few territories in the region. Their going to have an interesting time, especially since there are probably other powers, most likely Spain, who owned or claimed them in 1621 and is going to be less than happy with their sudden appearance and also possibly their apparent vulnerability. This could be another likely source of conflict as if the Caribbean Netherlands have immediate communications with home the Spanish viceroys won't.
Yep, especially Bonaire as it has a airport ( Flamingo International Airport) that can handle large jet aircraft, i see the Nederlands sending marines and army units there to keep Caribbean Netherlands free from Spain.
Ah that's useful. Will make it a lot easier in the short term at least.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 20, 2018 11:23:53 GMT
Yep, especially Bonaire as it has a airport ( Flamingo International Airport) that can handle large jet aircraft, i see the Nederlands sending marines and army units there to keep Caribbean Netherlands free from Spain. Ah that's useful. Will make it a lot easier in the short term at least.
Yes as air travel is i think the only way to feed those three islands for now. |
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Post by eurowatch on May 20, 2018 11:27:18 GMT
That's what I was thinking of. Wasn't sure if you still had a few territories in the region. Their going to have an interesting time, especially since there are probably other powers, most likely Spain, who owned or claimed them in 1621 and is going to be less than happy with their sudden appearance and also possibly their apparent vulnerability. This could be another likely source of conflict as if the Caribbean Netherlands have immediate communications with home the Spanish viceroys won't.
Yep, especially Bonaire as it has a airport ( Flamingo International Airport) that can handle large jet aircraft, i see the Nederlands sending marines and army units there to keep Caribbean Netherlands free from Spain. Qouting Defensie.nl the military forces in the Carribiean are: - one sqaudron of marines (32nd raiding squadron) on Aruba - one rotated detachment of marines on St. Maarten - one rotated company from the Army - the Aruban militia - the Curaqaose militia - one FRISC-troop - the stationed ship in the west (typically a frigate) - the strategic transport ship Zn. Ms. Pelikaan - one brigade of marechaussee. If necassery, the presence can be expanded. |
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