The Long War in the Atlantic and Pacific

[stevep]

Feb 1, 2018 22:19:38 GMT lordroel said:

For those who are interested, there is a good discussion going on regarding this timeline on the NavWeaps Discussion Boards with the thread called: The Long War in the Atlantic and Pacific

  Hell I had forgotten you had originally posted the idea here!  I'm stevep59 on the naval site as you may have guessed.

[lordroel]

Feb 2, 2018 11:50:11 GMT stevep said:

Feb 1, 2018 22:19:38 GMT lordroel said:

For those who are interested, there is a good discussion going on regarding this timeline on the NavWeaps Discussion Boards with the thread called: The Long War in the Atlantic and Pacific

  Hell I had forgotten you had originally posted the idea here!  I'm stevep59 on the naval site as you may have guessed.

And I am lordhen there.

[lordroel]

The Long War in the Pacific Chapter III (The Imperial Japanese Navy)

The Imperial Japanese Navy expanded in the years after the Russo-Japanese War, building additional dreadnoughts and battle cruisers. After defeating China in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War (1916 to 1917), the Japanese incorporated the most effective Chinese warships into their own fleet, including dreadnoughts built in British, German, American and Austro-Hungarian shipyards. During a brief naval war with a revived Russian Far Eastern Fleet, resulting in the defeat of the Russians and a British-brokered cease-fire the Japanese seized the Tsar’s Pacific Fleet, taking over the handful of ships worth bringing into service.

The enlarged Empire commanded greater resources, and continued to pour them into its Navy. The Fuso, Ise, Nagato and Tosa classes, initially planned to number two ships each, instead became sets of four battleships.

Thanks to her enhanced power and prestige, Japan was able to demand and receive equal treatment at the Washington Naval Conference, extracting an equal ratio with Britain and the United States. That allowed the Imperial Japanese Navy to complete and retain the new Tosa-class fast battleships plus all twelve units of the Fuso, Ise and Nagato classes; they also obtained a provision allowing conversion of all four new Amagi-class battle cruisers into aircraft carriers and six smaller, older battle cruisers into light carriers. A small aircraft carrier already under construction was cancelled.

Two of the smaller ships were initially converted, with the others laid up to await test results from the first pair. As experience taught Japan’s naval architects the intricacies of carrier air operations, the remaining ships were rebuilt until all 10 were complete in the early 1930’s.

During the decades between the wars, Japan built a naval air arm to match its carrier fleet, with a large reserve of well-trained pilots (thanks to cheap and plentiful gasoline) and cutting-edge, high-performance aircraft. The converted battle cruisers would be joined by the Soryu class of three large purpose-built carriers laid down in 1934, three more of the Shokaku class laid down in 1938, and finally three of the Taiho class begin in 1941.

American politicians heated up their “America First” rhetoric following the 1940 election of Paul McNutt – who advocated “the extermination of the Japanese in toto” – as president. In response, the Imperial Navy activated its “Rapid Armaments Program,” laying down additional aircraft carriers of the new Unryu class plus escorts, destroyers, transports, submarines and mine warfare vessels. Long-standing plans to convert a number of passenger liners, seaplane carriers and submarine tenders into escort aircraft carriers also went forward.

By late 1943, the Imperial Japanese Navy had ten fleet carriers and fourteen light carriers in commission, with three more fleet carriers nearing completion and six more under construction. A single unique “battleship-carrier” also remains in service, though relegated to support missions. Modern aircraft as capable as anything in the American arsenal filled their flight decks: A7M “Reppu” fighters, D4Y “Suisei” dive bombers and B6N “Tenzan” torpedo bombers, with the new B7A “Ryusei” attack plane beginning to replace the latter two types on the bigger Japanese carriers.

Supporting the carriers are four battle cruisers rebuilt as fast battleships, and a battle line of sixteen reconditioned battleships from the Great War era plus the four behemoths of the Yamato class. Two older battleships, German-built prizes taken from the Chinese in 1917, are in service as training ships and available for secondary duties.

From its huge, well-protected base in the Pearl River Estuary on Oahu in the Hawaiian Islands, the Combined Fleet commands a dominating central position in the Pacific basin. The Americans are known to covet the islands, but with their main fleet base at San Diego over 2,600 miles away, there does not appear to be much cause for alarm.

[stevep]

Jul 24, 2020 19:09:21 GMT lordroel said:

The Long War in the Pacific Chapter III (The Imperial Japanese Navy)

The Imperial Japanese Navy expanded in the years after the Russo-Japanese War, building additional dreadnoughts and battle cruisers. After defeating China in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War (1916 to 1917), the Japanese incorporated the most effective Chinese warships into their own fleet, including dreadnoughts built in British, German, American and Austro-Hungarian shipyards. During a brief naval war with a revived Russian Far Eastern Fleet, resulting in the defeat of the Russians and a British-brokered cease-fire the Japanese seized the Tsar’s Pacific Fleet, taking over the handful of ships worth bringing into service.

The enlarged Empire commanded greater resources, and continued to pour them into its Navy. The Fuso, Ise, Nagato and Tosa classes, initially planned to number two ships each, instead became sets of four battleships.

Thanks to her enhanced power and prestige, Japan was able to demand and receive equal treatment at the Washington Naval Conference, extracting an equal ratio with Britain and the United States. That allowed the Imperial Japanese Navy to complete and retain the new Tosa-class fast battleships plus all twelve units of the Fuso, Ise and Nagato classes; they also obtained a provision allowing conversion of all four new Amagi-class battle cruisers into aircraft carriers and six smaller, older battle cruisers into light carriers. A small aircraft carrier already under construction was cancelled.

Two of the smaller ships were initially converted, with the others laid up to await test results from the first pair. As experience taught Japan’s naval architects the intricacies of carrier air operations, the remaining ships were rebuilt until all 10 were complete in the early 1930’s.

During the decades between the wars, Japan built a naval air arm to match its carrier fleet, with a large reserve of well-trained pilots (thanks to cheap and plentiful gasoline) and cutting-edge, high-performance aircraft. The converted battle cruisers would be joined by the Soryu class of three large purpose-built carriers laid down in 1934, three more of the Shokaku class laid down in 1938, and finally three of the Taiho class begin in 1941.

American politicians heated up their “America First” rhetoric following the 1940 election of Paul McNutt – who advocated “the extermination of the Japanese in toto” – as president. In response, the Imperial Navy activated its “Rapid Armaments Program,” laying down additional aircraft carriers of the new Unryu class plus escorts, destroyers, transports, submarines and mine warfare vessels. Long-standing plans to convert a number of passenger liners, seaplane carriers and submarine tenders into escort aircraft carriers also went forward.

By late 1943, the Imperial Japanese Navy had ten fleet carriers and fourteen light carriers in commission, with three more fleet carriers nearing completion and six more under construction. A single unique “battleship-carrier” also remains in service, though relegated to support missions. Modern aircraft as capable as anything in the American arsenal filled their flight decks: A7M “Reppu” fighters, D4Y “Suisei” dive bombers and B6N “Tenzan” torpedo bombers, with the new B7A “Ryusei” attack plane beginning to replace the latter two types on the bigger Japanese carriers.

Supporting the carriers are four battle cruisers rebuilt as fast battleships, and a battle line of sixteen reconditioned battleships from the Great War era plus the four behemoths of the Yamato class. Two older battleships, German-built prizes taken from the Chinese in 1917, are in service as training ships and available for secondary duties.

From its huge, well-protected base in the Pearl River Estuary on Oahu in the Hawaiian Islands, the Combined Fleet commands a dominating central position in the Pacific basin. The Americans are known to covet the islands, but with their main fleet base at San Diego over 2,600 miles away, there does not appear to be much cause for alarm.

  Why do I get the feeling there's going to be a sneak attack on the naval base at Pear Harbour, however with the subtle [or not] difference of the Japanese being on the receiving end.

[lordroel]

Jul 25, 2020 10:33:48 GMT stevep said:

Jul 24, 2020 19:09:21 GMT lordroel said:

The Long War in the Pacific Chapter III (The Imperial Japanese Navy)

The Imperial Japanese Navy expanded in the years after the Russo-Japanese War, building additional dreadnoughts and battle cruisers. After defeating China in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War (1916 to 1917), the Japanese incorporated the most effective Chinese warships into their own fleet, including dreadnoughts built in British, German, American and Austro-Hungarian shipyards. During a brief naval war with a revived Russian Far Eastern Fleet, resulting in the defeat of the Russians and a British-brokered cease-fire the Japanese seized the Tsar’s Pacific Fleet, taking over the handful of ships worth bringing into service.

The enlarged Empire commanded greater resources, and continued to pour them into its Navy. The Fuso, Ise, Nagato and Tosa classes, initially planned to number two ships each, instead became sets of four battleships.

Thanks to her enhanced power and prestige, Japan was able to demand and receive equal treatment at the Washington Naval Conference, extracting an equal ratio with Britain and the United States. That allowed the Imperial Japanese Navy to complete and retain the new Tosa-class fast battleships plus all twelve units of the Fuso, Ise and Nagato classes; they also obtained a provision allowing conversion of all four new Amagi-class battle cruisers into aircraft carriers and six smaller, older battle cruisers into light carriers. A small aircraft carrier already under construction was cancelled.

Two of the smaller ships were initially converted, with the others laid up to await test results from the first pair. As experience taught Japan’s naval architects the intricacies of carrier air operations, the remaining ships were rebuilt until all 10 were complete in the early 1930’s.

During the decades between the wars, Japan built a naval air arm to match its carrier fleet, with a large reserve of well-trained pilots (thanks to cheap and plentiful gasoline) and cutting-edge, high-performance aircraft. The converted battle cruisers would be joined by the Soryu class of three large purpose-built carriers laid down in 1934, three more of the Shokaku class laid down in 1938, and finally three of the Taiho class begin in 1941.

American politicians heated up their “America First” rhetoric following the 1940 election of Paul McNutt – who advocated “the extermination of the Japanese in toto” – as president. In response, the Imperial Navy activated its “Rapid Armaments Program,” laying down additional aircraft carriers of the new Unryu class plus escorts, destroyers, transports, submarines and mine warfare vessels. Long-standing plans to convert a number of passenger liners, seaplane carriers and submarine tenders into escort aircraft carriers also went forward.

By late 1943, the Imperial Japanese Navy had ten fleet carriers and fourteen light carriers in commission, with three more fleet carriers nearing completion and six more under construction. A single unique “battleship-carrier” also remains in service, though relegated to support missions. Modern aircraft as capable as anything in the American arsenal filled their flight decks: A7M “Reppu” fighters, D4Y “Suisei” dive bombers and B6N “Tenzan” torpedo bombers, with the new B7A “Ryusei” attack plane beginning to replace the latter two types on the bigger Japanese carriers.

Supporting the carriers are four battle cruisers rebuilt as fast battleships, and a battle line of sixteen reconditioned battleships from the Great War era plus the four behemoths of the Yamato class. Two older battleships, German-built prizes taken from the Chinese in 1917, are in service as training ships and available for secondary duties.

From its huge, well-protected base in the Pearl River Estuary on Oahu in the Hawaiian Islands, the Combined Fleet commands a dominating central position in the Pacific basin. The Americans are known to covet the islands, but with their main fleet base at San Diego over 2,600 miles away, there does not appear to be much cause for alarm.

  Why do I get the feeling there's going to be a sneak attack on the naval base at Pear Harbour, however with the subtle [or not] difference of the Japanese being on the receiving end.

But at least the United States declared war against the empire of Japan, so i think the United States Pacific Fleet was already underway when the declaration of war was issued.

So now it is the question, are there any Japanese flattops in Pearl Harbor.

[stevep]

Jul 25, 2020 10:37:11 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 25, 2020 10:33:48 GMT stevep said:

  Why do I get the feeling there's going to be a sneak attack on the naval base at Pear Harbour, however with the subtle [or not] difference of the Japanese being on the receiving end.

But at least the United States declared war against the empire of Japan, so i think the United States Pacific Fleet was already underway when the declaration of war was issued.

So now it is the question, are there any Japanese flattops in Pearl Harbor.

  That would be a question but I think there's likely to be some as it sounds like its their major fleet base and presumably the US is seen as the great threat.  The other question of course is, especially if there's a formal dow arriving 1st, are they caught by surprise.  They might be, or might not.  Plus do they have radar or any code-breaking successes like the US did OTL?  The other question is are they a brutal racist dictatorship as OTL, which would weaken them in much of their empire or more liberal in that they could gain a lot of strength from their colonies.

  I can't remember what is the political situation in the rest of the world?  Is there a rampant Nazi [or otherwise] Germany in Europe conquering a lot of areas, relative peace or somewhere in between.  Also are Japan attacking British and Dutch colonies.  If not and given that in TTL it could well be that they stay neutral.

[lordroel]

Jul 25, 2020 11:12:15 GMT stevep said:

I can't remember what is the political situation in the rest of the world?  Is there a rampant Nazi [or otherwise] Germany in Europe conquering a lot of areas, relative peace or somewhere in between.  Also are Japan attacking British and Dutch colonies.  If not and given that in TTL it could well be that they stay neutral.

You can read in page 1 of the thread in The Long War in the Pacific Chapter II what the situation is in Europe, the United kingdom is barley holding its own against Germany, i would not be surprise if the United Kingdom ends up allies with Japan when Germany and the United States become allies.

Also in The Long War in the Pacific Chapter I (the road to war) you can read that the Empire of Japan by 1943 stretches from the northern tip of Sakhalin Island southward to the northern coastline of Borneo. Manchuria (including Outer Manchuria), Taiwan, Korea and the Philippines are incorporated into the Empire and the Empire of China and the Kingdom of Hawaii are in name only independent. 

[stevep]

Jul 25, 2020 12:07:53 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 25, 2020 11:12:15 GMT stevep said:

I can't remember what is the political situation in the rest of the world?  Is there a rampant Nazi [or otherwise] Germany in Europe conquering a lot of areas, relative peace or somewhere in between.  Also are Japan attacking British and Dutch colonies.  If not and given that in TTL it could well be that they stay neutral.

You can read in page 1 of the thread in The Long War in the Pacific Chapter II what the situation is in Europe, the United kingdom is barley holding its own against Germany, i would not be surprise if the United Kingdom ends up allies with Japan when Germany and the United States become allies.

Also in The Long War in the Pacific Chapter I (the road to war) you can read that the Empire of Japan by 1943 stretches from the northern tip of Sakhalin Island southward to the northern coastline of Borneo. Manchuria (including Outer Manchuria), Taiwan, Korea and the Philippines are incorporated into the Empire and the Empire of China and the Kingdom of Hawaii are in name only independent. 

  OK thanks.  That is going to be very awkward for Britain, both because of the defence of Canada and assorted Caribbean possessions and its reliance on goods from N America, especially food and oil. I can' see that going well for Britain even if say the US is a lot weaker than OTL.

[lordroel]

Jul 25, 2020 15:10:49 GMT stevep said:

Jul 25, 2020 12:07:53 GMT lordroel said:

You can read in page 1 of the thread in The Long War in the Pacific Chapter II what the situation is in Europe, the United kingdom is barley holding its own against Germany, i would not be surprise if the United Kingdom ends up allies with Japan when Germany and the United States become allies.

Also in The Long War in the Pacific Chapter I (the road to war) you can read that the Empire of Japan by 1943 stretches from the northern tip of Sakhalin Island southward to the northern coastline of Borneo. Manchuria (including Outer Manchuria), Taiwan, Korea and the Philippines are incorporated into the Empire and the Empire of China and the Kingdom of Hawaii are in name only independent. 

  OK thanks.  That is going to be very awkward for Britain, both because of the defence of Canada and assorted Caribbean possessions and its reliance on goods from N America, especially food and oil. I can' see that going well for Britain even if say the US is a lot weaker than OTL.

Even if a President McNutt is elected in 1940, i doubt he can make the United States Navy large enough in only 3 years time to be able to face the the Japanese head on, thus the sneak attack we are going to see in Pearl Harbor, this time with the Americans doing the attacking.