kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 818 
Likes: 258
|
Post by kasumigenx on May 31, 2017 18:02:45 GMT
The Japanese would first need to conquer Taiwan, the Kingdoms in Luzon would continue to be an intermediary to the Japanese and the Malays as they were in the era of Majapahit, they would be more united once they encounter the Japanese. So the saying works for them, The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Perhaps at that time they would be also allied with the Kingdom of Gowa and other Malay Kingdoms.. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,439
|
Post by lordroel on May 31, 2017 18:03:24 GMT
So the saying works for them, The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Perhaps at that time they would be also allied with the Kingdom of Gowa and other Malay Kingdoms.. But i do wonder who would be the supreme king to lead them. |
|
kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 818
Likes: 258
|
Post by kasumigenx on May 31, 2017 18:04:40 GMT
The Japanese would first need to conquer Taiwan, the Kingdoms in Luzon would continue to be an intermediary to the Japanese and the Malays as they were in the era of Majapahit, they would be more united once they encounter the Japanese. So the saying works for them, The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Spanish allies in Luzon who are of Bornean descent were coward backstabbers. |
|
kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 818
Likes: 258
|
Post by kasumigenx on May 31, 2017 18:06:30 GMT
So the saying works for them, The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Spanish allies in Luzon who are of Bornean descent were coward backstabbers. I think the strongest kingdom or polity would rule others. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,439
|
Post by lordroel on May 31, 2017 18:11:36 GMT
The Spanish allies in Luzon who are of Bornean descent were coward backstabbers. I think the strongest kingdom or polity would rule others. Found something that might help, i think.  |
|
kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 818
Likes: 258
|
Post by kasumigenx on May 31, 2017 18:15:32 GMT
I think the strongest kingdom or polity would rule others. Found something that might help, i think. Since the Spanish already conquered Pampanga, the pagans will rally to the Kingdom of Kaboloan ruled by a Javanese royal house, that is if they play with limahong better or limahong did not come. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,439
|
Post by lordroel on May 31, 2017 18:21:10 GMT
Found something that might help, i think. Since the Spanish already conquered Pampanga, the pagans will rally to the Kingdom of Kaboloan ruled by a Javanese royal house, that is if they play with limahong better or limahong did not come. The Bruneian Empire might be a contender in taking over the Philippines and latter one the won that might face the Japanese if they arrive. |
|
kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 818
Likes: 258
|
Post by kasumigenx on Jun 1, 2017 5:36:55 GMT
Kaboloan with the Support of the Pagans will try to play both.
|
|
eurofed
Banned
Posts: 586
Likes: 62
|
Post by eurofed on Jun 30, 2017 17:57:57 GMT
Interesting digression about precolonial Philippines. Now, I suppose it is entirely feasible ITTL the Iberians neglect colonization of the archipelago, perhaps because they are more focused on North Africa, the Americas, and Indonesia (ITTL the Aviz unite Castilla, Aragon, and Portugal, and the HRE gets centralized, quite possibly by the Habsbug or perhaps by another German royal house, so there is no Netherlands). However if they do the Philippines shall surely become a natural expansion target for Japorea, right next after Taiwan and Hainan. And I can't see anybody that would stop them, if the Europeans stand apart. Short of getting leaders as talented as the great conquerors of history, the precolonial kingdoms of the Malay Archipelago in the 16th-18th century were simply far too weak to resist conquest by a strong, ambitious European or Asian empire. So if they don't go to Iberia or another European colonial power, TTL Philippines shall be seized by Japorea and thoroughly assimilated.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,439
|
Post by lordroel on Jun 30, 2017 20:20:05 GMT
, TTL Philippines shall be seized by Japorea and thoroughly assimilated. And replacing Spanish with Japanese is not going to help. |
|
eurofed
Banned
Posts: 586
Likes: 62
|
Post by eurofed on Jul 1, 2017 4:27:45 GMT
, TTL Philippines shall be seized by Japorea and thoroughly assimilated. And replacing Spanish with Japanese is not going to help. Well, Japorea is closer to the Philippines than Iberia, being a smaller, more geopolitically focused empire than the Spanish-Portoguese one it may pay more attention to its various components, so I guess it shall do a more thorough job of cultural assimilation for the Filipinos than the Spanish. As I see it, exchanging 186 languages for one is a net gain for trade of goods and ideas. Admittedly, getting assimilated into a European Romance culture or an East Asian Japonic-Koreanic shall more or less feel the same kind of alien experience for the precolonial Filipinos. For what I know Japan-Korea and the Malay Archipelago didn't share many cultural elements before the Japoreans are going to go on a conquest spree in Southeast Asia. The Indochinese mainland did share a sizable common ground with Northeast Asia through Chinese cultural influence, but the islands were a different matter. |
|
kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 818
Likes: 258
|
Post by kasumigenx on Jul 2, 2017 18:20:50 GMT
And replacing Spanish with Japanese is not going to help. Well, Japorea is closer to the Philippines than Iberia, being a smaller, more geopolitically focused empire than the Spanish-Portoguese one it may pay more attention to its various components, so I guess it shall do a more thorough job of cultural assimilation for the Filipinos than the Spanish. As I see it, exchanging 186 languages for one is a net gain for trade of goods and ideas. Admittedly, getting assimilated into a European Romance culture or an East Asian Japonic-Koreanic shall more or less feel the same kind of alien experience for the precolonial Filipinos. For what I know Japan-Korea and the Malay Archipelago didn't share many cultural elements before the Japoreans are going to go on a conquest spree in Southeast Asia. The Indochinese mainland did share a sizable common ground with Northeast Asia through Chinese cultural influence, but the islands were a different matter. I think Northern Luzon will remain an intermediary between Japorea and Malay Archipelago forming a Majapahit Trebizond like state..Northern Luzon will be nothing just a rock for them in OTL before 18th century the Spanish hardly conquered Northern half of Luzon except for the coastal and Manila bay area..I think a Wokou state will rise in Southern Luzon in another timeline.. |
|
eurofed
Banned
Posts: 586
Likes: 62
|
Post by eurofed on Jul 4, 2017 17:50:29 GMT
Well, if one looks at the pattern of premodern European colonization in Asia as an analogy, we may certainly expect the Japoreans may start their conquest by seizing the coastal areas of greater strategic and/or economic value, and only progress to penetrate the interior areas in serious depth only decades or even centuries later. Perhaps an East Asian empire whose core is geographically closer to Southeasr than the European powers might follow a quicker colonization pattern. I suppose one might follow the examples of expanding Asian empires (e.g. Imperial China, the most successful Indian and Muslim states) as a closer analogy. IIRC their typical conquest speed was somewhat quicker than that, but they almost always expanded by land, so the example might be imperfect.
It also depends if at the time Japorea is engaged in colonizing the Philippines, it is also distraced by important military commitments elsewhere. E.g. the TL assumes Japorea is busy during the 17th century in a successful effort to contend the Far East to Russia. In addition or in alternative to colonization of the Philppines, the Japoreans may also get engaged in an effort to conquer Indochina, which may or may not drag them in a renewed conflict with Qing China. On the other hand, for what I know, the precolonial Malay Archipelago states were military lightweights, so an European or South/East Asian seafaring empire might overwhelm them with only a fraction of their military resources. The Indochinese states as a rule were of somewhat sturdier stuff, but even Vietnam underwent a period of serious weakness and disunity in the 16th-18th century, so in their case I tend to assume it much depends on the actions of China. The strength of the Burmese and Thai kingdoms waxed and waned during this period, so their performance may vary.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,439
|
Post by lordroel on Jul 4, 2017 17:52:20 GMT
Well, if one looks at the pattern of premodern European colonization in Asia as an analogy, we may certainly expect the Japoreans may start their conquest by seizing the coastal areas of greater strategic and/or economic value, and only progress to penetrate the interior areas in serious depth only decades or even centuries later. Perhaps an East Asian empire whose core is geographically closer to Southeasr than the European powers might follow a quicker colonization pattern. I suppose one might follow the examples of expanding Asian empires (e.g. Imperial China, the most successful Indian and Muslim states) as a closer analogy. IIRC their typical conquest speed was somewhat quicker than that, but they almost always expanded by land, so the example might be imperfect. It also depends if at the time Japorea is engaged in colonizing the Philippines, it is also distraced by important military commitments elsewhere. E.g. the TL assumes Japorea is busy during the 17th century in a successful effort to contend the Far East to Russia. In addition or in alternative to colonization of the Philppines, the Japoreans may also get engaged in an effort to conquer Indochina, which may or may not drag them in a renewed conflict with Qing China. On the other hand, for what I know, the precolonial Malay Archipelago states were military lightweights, so an European or South/East Asian seafaring empire might overwhelm them with only a fraction of their military resources. The Indochinese states as a rule were of somewhat sturdier stuff, but even Vietnam underwent a period of serious weakness in the 16th-18th century (so in their case I tend to assume it much depends on the actions of China). The strength of the Burmese and Thai kingdoms waxed and waned during this period, so their performance may vary. Could the Japoreans instead of conquering not create some puppet kingdoms in the Philippines. |
|
eurofed
Banned
Posts: 586
Likes: 62
|
Post by eurofed on Jul 4, 2017 20:33:19 GMT
Could the Japoreans instead of conquering not create some puppet kingdoms in the Philippines. Possibly but since direct conquest would have worked so good for them in their Northeast Asian core I'd really expect them to try and replicate the pattern at least half of the time when they knock at the door of Southeast Asia. It might go various ways but given the circumstances I'd much more expect the Philippines becoming a Japorean colony, while Indochina becomes either a client of Japorea, a vassal of China, a contested area or buffer between the two empires (and Iberian Indonesia), or any possible patchwork hybrid betwen these outcomes. I'm sorry, but the precolonial Malay Archipelago states were such lightweights they were utterly unable to resist colonization by such second-tier powers as Portugal and the Netherlands, so I have the greatest skepticism in their ability to defend their independence, short of their kings becoming as talented as the greatest statesmen of history. On the other hand, if Japorean colonization pattern in Southeast Asia becomes a close analog of the European one, it may well include a relatively lengthy transitiory period where vassallization and indirect influence is the main manifestation of Japorean influence, and only the coastal areas of greatest economic or stategic value are directly controlled. If I have to bet on any regional state escaping full-fledged European or East Asian colonialism in the end, my money is on one or the other of the mainland kingdoms, not any of the archipelago polities. |
|
