lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 8, 2017 13:54:48 GMT
There are three kinds of issues involved here. First of all, yes scientific and technological progress was made in OTL western Eurasia during the Middle Ages, although the bulk of it occurred in the latter half of the period, during the High and Late Middle Ages span in Europe and the Islamic Golden Age in the Middle East. On the other hand, western Eurasia did suffer greatly from Rome's collapse, the socio-economic regression and political fragmentation in manorialism and feudalism, and the break of Mediterranean unity caused by expansion of Islam. ITTL nothing of the sort exists, Rome keeps being basically prosperous, the integrated proto-market economy and urbanized society the Principate created across the Med lands remains strong and gets expanded to Central and Eastern Europe several centuries before OTL Christendom did it. As a result, Rome evolves directly from early Principate conditions into High/Late Middle Ages and Islamic Golden Age ones without the baggage of feudalism centuries earlier than OTL, precisely because it misses the collapse and keeps building on its own achievements. It also helps the Roman, Chinese, and Indian sophisticated civilizations create an efficient proto-global trade network to exchange goods and ideas across Eurasia since Principate/Han times. So Rome evolves from Principate to Renaissance in one unbroken trend, about a half-millennium earlier than OTL. The TL tracks such progress all the way to mastery of Renaissance signature techs. Since its society remains highly dymamic, as much as OTL Europe if not more so, it is only natural this progress pattern holds true all the way to industrialization and the Information/Space Age, so Rome achieves both pretty much with the same temporal advantage in comparison to OTL, industrialization by the half of the second millennium, 21st century technology by the last quarter of the same, at the very least. One might even argue that rate of progress may be slightly quicker yet, because of greater amounts of brainpower and resources, but I suppose OTL Europe pace anticipated by a half millennium might be a prudent aestimate. On the other hand, I see no plausible reason whatsoever why TTL Rome should be expected to be any less dynamic than OTL Europe. Moreover, I am also persuaded OTL modernity failed to realize its full potential of technological progress in certain fields such as space, energy, and biotechnologies, and since the factors that held back our world do not seem especially relevant here, the 21st century level equivalent for Rome is more advanced than OTL in those fields. The TL's final picture of modern Rome does represent this advantage, and it is assumed they achieved this level with the aforementioned half-millennium difference. Last but not least, I'm left dubious if OTL 21st century did the very best an equivalent advanced civilization in other fields such as cybernetics, materials science, IT, nanotech, and so on, or if there was unrealized potential to do somewhat better. I lack sufficient knowledge in these fields to make the informed judgement I made for space, energy, and biotech. If potential to do better in the other fields did exist, modern Rome might well have realized it because of its resources advantages. So there are three levels for this issue: first, successful Rome during its post-Classical history accumulates an advantage of at least about half a millennium in technological progress which holds true throughout its history; second, when it achieves 21st century equivalent several centuries earlier, it is even more advanced (by a few decades, probably) in certain specific fields where OTL failed to express its full potential; third, such an extra advantage may or may not be true across the board, but since the author is uncertain about this and lacks exhaustive knowledge, the TL assumes it does not occur. So Rome may become a space power. |
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Oct 8, 2017 15:14:20 GMT
So Rome may become a space power. Absolutely so. By their 2010s-plus equivalent in the last quarter of the second millennium, they are taking the first baby steps in that direction with great enthusiasm for space colonization. They have the technology, the resources, and the political/cultural committment. In the next few decades they are going to stage large-scale colonization of the Inner Solar System with domed and orbital habitats, and soon after that, enact terraforming of Venus and Mars. By the time they reach the third millennium, they are certainly going to be a spacefaring interplanetary civilization and an empire spanning the Solar System, with transhumanist postcyberpunk technology. Quite possibly an interstellar empire as well, provided they can crack the puzzle of FTL technology in the next few centuries. I'm fairly confident wormhole travel and/or the Alcubierre warp drive are allowed by physical laws, the trick is to make the big leap and develop the necessary technology. More and more scientific evidence is piling up that Earth-like planets that humans can colonize are in all likelihood fairly common in the galaxy. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 8, 2017 15:15:35 GMT
So Rome may become a space power. Absolutely so. By 2010s-equivalent, they are taking the first baby steps in that direction with great enthusiasm for space colonization. They have the technology, the resources, and the political/cultural committment. In the next few decades they are going to stage large-scale colonization of the Inner Solar System with domed and orbital habitats, and soon after that, enact terraforming of Venus and Mars. By the time they reach the third millennium AD, they are certainly going to be a spacefaring interplanetary civilization and an empire spanning the Solar System, with transhumanist postcyberpunk technology. Quite possibly an interstellar empire as well, provided they can crack the puzzle of FTL technology in the next few centuries. I'm fairly confident wormhole travel and/or the Alcubierre warp drive are allowed by physical laws, the trick is to make the (big) leap and develop the necessary technology. More and more scientifc evidence is piling up that Earth-like planets that humans can colonize are in all likelihood fairly common in the galaxy. How more i think about it how more this Rome could end up becoming something like the Romulan Star Empire of Star Trek. |
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Oct 8, 2017 15:24:32 GMT
Absolutely so. By 2010s-equivalent, they are taking the first baby steps in that direction with great enthusiasm for space colonization. They have the technology, the resources, and the political/cultural committment. In the next few decades they are going to stage large-scale colonization of the Inner Solar System with domed and orbital habitats, and soon after that, enact terraforming of Venus and Mars. By the time they reach the third millennium AD, they are certainly going to be a spacefaring interplanetary civilization and an empire spanning the Solar System, with transhumanist postcyberpunk technology. Quite possibly an interstellar empire as well, provided they can crack the puzzle of FTL technology in the next few centuries. I'm fairly confident wormhole travel and/or the Alcubierre warp drive are allowed by physical laws, the trick is to make the (big) leap and develop the necessary technology. More and more scientifc evidence is piling up that Earth-like planets that humans can colonize are in all likelihood fairly common in the galaxy. How more i think about it how more this Rome could end up becoming something like the Romulan Star Empire of Star Trek. It seems a reasonable expectation. Space Rome shall in all likelihood be as pro-science, eager for exploration, and unconcerned with racial differences as the Federation but not so pacifist or anti-transhumanist, militarist like the Klingon but not so dedicated to warrior ideals for their own sake, imperialist like the Mirror Universe's Terran Empire but not so trapped in short-sighted brutality and internal power struggles, and ruthlessly practical like the Romulans, so it would most likely resemble a human-dominated version of the latter more than any other ST Alpha Quadrant interstellar power. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 8, 2017 15:26:22 GMT
How more i think about it how more this Rome could end up becoming something like the Romulan Star Empire of Star Trek. It seems a reasonable expectation. Space Rome shall be as pro-science and eager for exploration as the Federation but not so pacifist or anti-transhumanist, militarist like the Klingon but not so dedicated to warrior ideals for their own sake, imperialist like the Mirror Universe's Terran Empire but not so trapped in short-sighted brutality and internal power struggles, and ruthlessly practical like the Romulans, so it would like resemble the latter more than any other ST Alpha Quadrant interstellar power. But unlike the Romulan Star Empire is has probably to compete with the other reaming powers on Earth am i right. |
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Oct 8, 2017 15:32:07 GMT
It seems a reasonable expectation. Space Rome shall be as pro-science and eager for exploration as the Federation but not so pacifist or anti-transhumanist, militarist like the Klingon but not so dedicated to warrior ideals for their own sake, imperialist like the Mirror Universe's Terran Empire but not so trapped in short-sighted brutality and internal power struggles, and ruthlessly practical like the Romulans, so it would like resemble the latter more than any other ST Alpha Quadrant interstellar power. But unlike the Romulan Star Empire is has probably to compete with the other reaming powers on Earth am i right. Quite possibly. Or alternatively, being the most powerful and successful human empire in any case (especially if we take the high end of variance options for its modern borders), eventually it finds a way to break the MAD stalemate with the other superpowers, conquer or peacefully assimilate them, and unify spacefaring mankind. On the other hand, the Earth empires could keep expanding their borders across the Solar System and eventually our corner of the galaxy, and become the seed of distinct human interstellar civilizations, kinda like Vulcan and Romulus in the Star Trek setting. It could go both ways. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 8, 2017 15:35:45 GMT
But unlike the Romulan Star Empire is has probably to compete with the other reaming powers on Earth am i right. Quite possibly. Or alternatively, being the most powerful and successful human empire in any case (especially if we take the high end of variance options for its modern borders), eventually it finds a way to break the MAD stalemate with the other superpowers, conquer or peacefully assimilate them, and unify spacefaring mankind. On the other hand, the Earth empires could keep expanding their borders across the Solar System and eventually our corner of the galaxy, and become the seed of distinct human interstellar civilizations, kinda like Vulcan and Romulus in the Star Trek setting. It could go both ways. You mean that Rome allows one of the few power blocs that have not been assimilated ore invaded by them to go into space where that power bloc set itself up on a new world becoming something like Romulus of Star Trek. |
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Oct 8, 2017 16:14:28 GMT
Quite possibly. Or alternatively, being the most powerful and successful human empire in any case (especially if we take the high end of variance options for its modern borders), eventually it finds a way to break the MAD stalemate with the other superpowers, conquer or peacefully assimilate them, and unify spacefaring mankind. On the other hand, the Earth empires could keep expanding their borders across the Solar System and eventually our corner of the galaxy, and become the seed of distinct human interstellar civilizations, kinda like Vulcan and Romulus in the Star Trek setting. It could go both ways. You mean that Rome allows one of the few power blocs that have not been assimilated ore invaded by them to go into space where that power bloc set itself up on a new world becoming something like Romulus of Star Trek. Quite possibly, yes, especially if Rome eventually accomplishes final unification of Earth and/or the Solar System when interstellar travel is already available, and humans know Earthlike planets are relatively common in the galaxy, so their defeated enemies flee someplace among the stars to establish a new colony and the Romans do not bother chasing them down, not when our corner of the galaxy provides plenty of good real estate to colonize anyway. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 8, 2017 17:17:58 GMT
You mean that Rome allows one of the few power blocs that have not been assimilated ore invaded by them to go into space where that power bloc set itself up on a new world becoming something like Romulus of Star Trek. Quite possibly, yes, especially if Rome eventually accomplishes final unification of Earth and/or the Solar System when interstellar travel is already available, and humans know Earthlike planets are relatively common in the galaxy, so their defeated enemies flee someplace among the stars to establish a new colony and the Romans do not bother chasing them down, not when our corner of the galaxy provides plenty of good real estate to colonize anyway. Does Rome religion change in the future if they go to space. |
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Oct 8, 2017 18:35:55 GMT
Quite possibly, yes, especially if Rome eventually accomplishes final unification of Earth and/or the Solar System when interstellar travel is already available, and humans know Earthlike planets are relatively common in the galaxy, so their defeated enemies flee someplace among the stars to establish a new colony and the Romans do not bother chasing them down, not when our corner of the galaxy provides plenty of good real estate to colonize anyway. Does Rome religion change in the future if they go to space. Kind of, but the basics may fit with a few tweaks. I suppose the most naive polytheist and Earthly-parochial aspects may get toned down, and the immanent pantheist ones get emphasized with a deist interpretation. I think "the Multiverse is (the Supreme) God, it created and evolves the Universe according to observable natural law, we are all part of it" is a kind of religion that may fit well with a scientifically advanced civilization. Alternatively or in combination, it may adopt an evolutionary apotheosis vision of (lesser) divinity under the influence of transhumanism, kinda similar to certain ideas of Mormonism: "(Hypothetical) Sufficiently Advanced Aliens are (lesser) Gods, in due time we shall evolve to be like them if we are worthy". Or perhaps some other variant I cannot think of at the moment. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 8, 2017 18:39:39 GMT
Does Rome religion change in the future if they go to space. Kind of, but the basics may fit with a few tweaks. I suppose the most blatantly naive polytheist and Earth-parochial aspects may get toned down, and the immanent pantheist-monist ones get emphasized with a deist interpretation. I think "the Multiverse is (the Supreme) God, it created and evolves the Universe according to observable natural law, we are all part of it" is a kind of religion that may fit well with a scientifically advanced civilization. Alternatively or in combination, it may adopt an evolutionary apotheosis vision of (lesser) divinity under the influence of transhumanism, kinda similar to certain ideas of Mormonism: "(Hypothetical) Sufficiently Advanced Aliens are (lesser) Gods, in due time we shall evolve to be like them if we are worthy". Or perhaps some other variant I cannot think of at the moment. Would strange to see Romans in the future landing on Mars, a planet that is named after the god of War. |
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Oct 8, 2017 19:13:02 GMT
Kind of, but the basics may fit with a few tweaks. I suppose the most blatantly naive polytheist and Earth-parochial aspects may get toned down, and the immanent pantheist-monist ones get emphasized with a deist interpretation. I think "the Multiverse is (the Supreme) God, it created and evolves the Universe according to observable natural law, we are all part of it" is a kind of religion that may fit well with a scientifically advanced civilization. Alternatively or in combination, it may adopt an evolutionary apotheosis vision of (lesser) divinity under the influence of transhumanism, kinda similar to certain ideas of Mormonism: "(Hypothetical) Sufficiently Advanced Aliens are (lesser) Gods, in due time we shall evolve to be like them if we are worthy". Or perhaps some other variant I cannot think of at the moment. Would strange to see Romans in the future landing on Mars, a planet that is named after the god of War. By the time the Romans colonize Mars and Venus, they have long since understood the sophisticated meaning behind the naive (if inspirational) myth. The Hellenistic names for the living archetypes of war and love are but one example of the many masks and titles they got in many traditions across the world. They know and honor all of them but understand these archetypes are everywhere humans honor and practice the fighting arts or passion and in no special physical place. The names of the planets are but an apt way to honor the gods. A basic doctrine of Romanism pretty much since its development is "an universal immanent divine force exists, which creates fate and natural law, and the various gods are self-aware universal archetypal expressions of natural law, who wear different faces and names in different cultures, and may partially affect (but not entirely abrogate) fate and natural law in their respective fields of responsibility." Such a kind of religion makes fairly easy to reconcile and integrate scientific understanding of the world with a sophisticated interpretation of syncretic pagan myth. By its very nature, Romanism is never going to have any outstanding problems with fundamentalism, and Roman culture grew to hate the idea anyway. If anything, the Romans may be even more prone than OTL to pick names for celestial bodies from syncretic pagan mythology, although I suppose they might become equally fond of using the names of venerated historical luminaries, such their best Emperors, greatest scholars, statesmen, and generals, and the like. |
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