Battle World 1939: Germany-Japan Vs United Kingdom-Canada

[lordroel]

Battle World 1939: Germany-Japan Vs United Kingdom-Canada

Welcome to Battle World 1939, a world where four countries, namely the Empire of Japan, the Third Reich, the United Kingdom and Canada are located, each country is 500 kilometers from each other the rules are and conditions of Battle World 1939 are:

(1) Each country is made up of only the home territory as it was in 1939 before the World War II started.

(2) Each country has all of their ships, aircraft and armies they had in 1939 located in their home territory.

(3) Each country has located a Oil Field, several mines with products who can not be depleted and who location are known to their governments

(4) Each country will have a fighting policy, the British alliance and the German alliance will have to fight each other until only one alliance stands as the winner.

Let the War of Battle World 1939 begin.

[stevep]

Mar 15, 2018 19:45:20 GMT lordroel said:

Battle World 1939: Germany-Japan Vs United Kingdom-Canada

Welcome to Battle World 1939, a world where four countries, namely the Empire of Japan, the Third Reich, the United Kingdom and Canada are located, each country is 500 kilometers from each other the rules are and conditions of Battle World 1939 are:

(1) Each country is made up of only the home territory as it was in 1939 before the World War II started.

(2) Each country has all of their ships, aircraft and armies they had in 1939 located in their home territory.

(3) Each country has located a Oil Field, several mines with products who can not be depleted and who location are known to their governments

(4) Each country will have a fighting policy, the British alliance and the German alliance will have to fight each other until only one alliance stands as the winner.

Let the War of Battle World 1939 begin.

  I fear that this is too heavily weighed against the allies as the Axis have a big advantage in both total manpower and also military strength.  The RN is a lot more powerful than the German one but the distance means that it would be harder for a blockade of Germany, plus that is presumably also an island and hence could build ports on its new coastlines.  The Japanese navy at this point is too powerful in terms of its advantages in air power and if its got integral oil and other supplies Japan isn't even limited by blockade.  Plus since its forces are returned from China and Manchuria it has a large and experienced army.  Canada at this point has a very small miliary and while this can be built up, if there is time it still lacks the population of the other powers.  Given that it would have a more moderate climate with sea rather than land to its south - although this will cause some disruption to the regions bordering the Great Lakes as they will quickly disappear, it could probably build up a formidable population and industrial base but there won't be the time for this. 

  It will be a long war, depending in details on assorted factors, including where the 4 states are in relation to each other.  Possibly best for the allies would be a basically linear lay-out with west to east being Canada - Britain - Japan and then Germany.  This would put the main allied military power and easiest to defend between Canada, the vital source of foodstuffs but vulnerable to invasion and the main enemy powers.  Japan, despite its fleet is still probably less of a threat than Germany to Britain itself as it lacks the MS for a sustained invasion of Britain against the resistance Britain can put up.  Plus working on the assumption that by the nature of the two regimes neither Germany nor Japan will be that willing to work that closely or allow too many troops from the other into their homeland.  Even so I fear its only a matter of time before Britain and then Canada is overcome.

[lordroel]

Mar 15, 2018 21:38:40 GMT stevep said:

Mar 15, 2018 19:45:20 GMT lordroel said:

Battle World 1939: Germany-Japan Vs United Kingdom-Canada

Welcome to Battle World 1939, a world where four countries, namely the Empire of Japan, the Third Reich, the United Kingdom and Canada are located, each country is 500 kilometers from each other the rules are and conditions of Battle World 1939 are:

(1) Each country is made up of only the home territory as it was in 1939 before the World War II started.

(2) Each country has all of their ships, aircraft and armies they had in 1939 located in their home territory.

(3) Each country has located a Oil Field, several mines with products who can not be depleted and who location are known to their governments

(4) Each country will have a fighting policy, the British alliance and the German alliance will have to fight each other until only one alliance stands as the winner.

Let the War of Battle World 1939 begin.

  I fear that this is too heavily weighed against the allies as the Axis have a big advantage in both total manpower and also military strength.  The RN is a lot more powerful than the German one but the distance means that it would be harder for a blockade of Germany, plus that is presumably also an island and hence could build ports on its new coastlines.  The Japanese navy at this point is too powerful in terms of its advantages in air power and if its got integral oil and other supplies Japan isn't even limited by blockade.  Plus since its forces are returned from China and Manchuria it has a large and experienced army.  Canada at this point has a very small miliary and while this can be built up, if there is time it still lacks the population of the other powers.  Given that it would have a more moderate climate with sea rather than land to its south - although this will cause some disruption to the regions bordering the Great Lakes as they will quickly disappear, it could probably build up a formidable population and industrial base but there won't be the time for this. 

  It will be a long war, depending in details on assorted factors, including where the 4 states are in relation to each other.  Possibly best for the allies would be a basically linear lay-out with west to east being Canada - Britain - Japan and then Germany.  This would put the main allied military power and easiest to defend between Canada, the vital source of foodstuffs but vulnerable to invasion and the main enemy powers.  Japan, despite its fleet is still probably less of a threat than Germany to Britain itself as it lacks the MS for a sustained invasion of Britain against the resistance Britain can put up.  Plus working on the assumption that by the nature of the two regimes neither Germany nor Japan will be that willing to work that closely or allow too many troops from the other into their homeland.  Even so I fear its only a matter of time before Britain and then Canada is overcome.

Germany has no navy to beat the Royal Navy, and if the Germans want to invade, i presume they need the Japanese to support them which you say might be a small change for them to work with each other.

The UK and Canada are on the Left with the UK above Canada and on the Right Japan being above Germany.

[stevep]

Mar 15, 2018 21:42:21 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 15, 2018 21:38:40 GMT stevep said:

  I fear that this is too heavily weighed against the allies as the Axis have a big advantage in both total manpower and also military strength.  The RN is a lot more powerful than the German one but the distance means that it would be harder for a blockade of Germany, plus that is presumably also an island and hence could build ports on its new coastlines.  The Japanese navy at this point is too powerful in terms of its advantages in air power and if its got integral oil and other supplies Japan isn't even limited by blockade.  Plus since its forces are returned from China and Manchuria it has a large and experienced army.  Canada at this point has a very small miliary and while this can be built up, if there is time it still lacks the population of the other powers.  Given that it would have a more moderate climate with sea rather than land to its south - although this will cause some disruption to the regions bordering the Great Lakes as they will quickly disappear, it could probably build up a formidable population and industrial base but there won't be the time for this. 

  It will be a long war, depending in details on assorted factors, including where the 4 states are in relation to each other.  Possibly best for the allies would be a basically linear lay-out with west to east being Canada - Britain - Japan and then Germany.  This would put the main allied military power and easiest to defend between Canada, the vital source of foodstuffs but vulnerable to invasion and the main enemy powers.  Japan, despite its fleet is still probably less of a threat than Germany to Britain itself as it lacks the MS for a sustained invasion of Britain against the resistance Britain can put up.  Plus working on the assumption that by the nature of the two regimes neither Germany nor Japan will be that willing to work that closely or allow too many troops from the other into their homeland.  Even so I fear its only a matter of time before Britain and then Canada is overcome.

Germany has no navy to beat the Royal Navy, and if the Germans want to invade, i presume they need the Japanese to support them which you say might be a small change for them to work with each other.

The UK and Canada are on the Left with the UK above Canada and on the Right Japan being above Germany.

  Yes but the problem is with the imbalance in population and industry I can't see the allies winning unless they get nukes 1st.

  If Britain's 500km north of Canada then unless a ASB has set up some pretty drastic climate fixing either Canada is having some very drastic climatic changes or Britain [and Japan] is in the arctic.  If their all reasonably temperate then Canada is going to have a much greater amount of land they can develop, if they have a few decades. 

  With that line up the danger would be that Germany can sneak an invasion force into Canada while Britain is busy fighting Japan.  If they can get a few divisions ashore , which admittedly might take a couple of years to build the ships, and support them then it would be difficult to stop them.  Albeit it will be a long way to Montreal and Toronto.

[lordroel]

Mar 15, 2018 22:55:55 GMT stevep said:

Mar 15, 2018 21:42:21 GMT lordroel said:

Germany has no navy to beat the Royal Navy, and if the Germans want to invade, i presume they need the Japanese to support them which you say might be a small change for them to work with each other.

The UK and Canada are on the Left with the UK above Canada and on the Right Japan being above Germany.

  Yes but the problem is with the imbalance in population and industry I can't see the allies winning unless they get nukes 1st.

  If Britain's 500km north of Canada then unless a ASB has set up some pretty drastic climate fixing either Canada is having some very drastic climatic changes or Britain [and Japan] is in the arctic.  If their all reasonably temperate then Canada is going to have a much greater amount of land they can develop, if they have a few decades. 

  With that line up the danger would be that Germany can sneak an invasion force into Canada while Britain is busy fighting Japan.  If they can get a few divisions ashore , which admittedly might take a couple of years to build the ships, and support them then it would be difficult to stop them.  Albeit it will be a long way to Montreal and Toronto.

So the idea of putting four countries on a planet for them to fight each other is not very likely to happen, good to know when i make new threads regarding Battle World.

[stevep]

Mar 16, 2018 10:11:24 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 15, 2018 22:55:55 GMT stevep said:

  Yes but the problem is with the imbalance in population and industry I can't see the allies winning unless they get nukes 1st.

  If Britain's 500km north of Canada then unless a ASB has set up some pretty drastic climate fixing either Canada is having some very drastic climatic changes or Britain [and Japan] is in the arctic.  If their all reasonably temperate then Canada is going to have a much greater amount of land they can develop, if they have a few decades. 

  With that line up the danger would be that Germany can sneak an invasion force into Canada while Britain is busy fighting Japan.  If they can get a few divisions ashore , which admittedly might take a couple of years to build the ships, and support them then it would be difficult to stop them.  Albeit it will be a long way to Montreal and Toronto.

So the idea of putting four countries on a planet for them to fight each other is not very likely to happen, good to know when i make new threads regarding Battle World.

  Its a possibility but I think those 4 at that time would give an unbalanced war.  Britain could put up a good fight and Canada could help out as long as it avoids being invaded but barring the nuclear option working they simply don't have the manpower and industry to defeat both Germany and Japan.  Britain and France, with basically 500km between both of them and their two opponents would be a markedly better match although demographics and industry would still be titled in favour of the Axis.

  Come to think of it have Britain & Canada v Germany and Italy and although still tough I could see at least a chance of the allies, with naval superiority being able to take out Italy and then possibly gradually wear down Germany, although it would probably be a tough war and either side could win it.

  Plus there's also the question of their lay out and how becoming islands affects their economic activity and environmental conditions.  As I say doing that to Canada and putting it south of Britain would radically alter a lot of things.  It would have more land because the drained Great Lakes would be included while a lot of the norther territories would become a lot more habitable but ports like Toronto would find themselves literally high and dry and without the Lakes to feed it the St Lawrence is likely to be a lot weaker if not gone already.  Similarly for Germany and if included Italy as instead of a common border they would have a high mountain cliff dropping into the sea.  Also Germany, almost land-locked would see land borders becoming seas, which would cause a lot of changes.  Not to mention if any of those nations were exposed to hurricanes or even heavy storms as a result.

[lordroel]

Mar 16, 2018 10:40:34 GMT stevep said:

Mar 16, 2018 10:11:24 GMT lordroel said:

So the idea of putting four countries on a planet for them to fight each other is not very likely to happen, good to know when i make new threads regarding Battle World.

  Its a possibility but I think those 4 at that time would give an unbalanced war.  Britain could put up a good fight and Canada could help out as long as it avoids being invaded but barring the nuclear option working they simply don't have the manpower and industry to defeat both Germany and Japan.  Britain and France, with basically 500km between both of them and their two opponents would be a markedly better match although demographics and industry would still be titled in favour of the Axis.

  Come to think of it have Britain & Canada v Germany and Italy and although still tough I could see at least a chance of the allies, with naval superiority being able to take out Italy and then possibly gradually wear down Germany, although it would probably be a tough war and either side could win it.

So replace Japan with Italy, that might work.

[stevep]

Mar 16, 2018 10:41:45 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 16, 2018 10:40:34 GMT stevep said:

  Its a possibility but I think those 4 at that time would give an unbalanced war.  Britain could put up a good fight and Canada could help out as long as it avoids being invaded but barring the nuclear option working they simply don't have the manpower and industry to defeat both Germany and Japan.  Britain and France, with basically 500km between both of them and their two opponents would be a markedly better match although demographics and industry would still be titled in favour of the Axis.

  Come to think of it have Britain & Canada v Germany and Italy and although still tough I could see at least a chance of the allies, with naval superiority being able to take out Italy and then possibly gradually wear down Germany, although it would probably be a tough war and either side could win it.

So replace Japan with Italy, that might work.

  It might.  Definitely be a better balance I think.  Italy has a navy that while smaller than Britain's would make an invasion difficult and between them the two Axis powers have the potential to outbuild the allies at sea but its not as immediately overwhelming as Germany and Japan.

  Or alternatively Italy and Japan would have a formidable navy at 1st but if the allies could survive that then they probably have a similar or slightly superior industrial base. 

  I added a paragraph about the importance of considering the geography of making some of those countries islands and also possibly climatic changes to my last post, just in case you don't notice as your replied to it

[lordroel]

Mar 16, 2018 10:52:16 GMT stevep said:

Mar 16, 2018 10:41:45 GMT lordroel said:

So replace Japan with Italy, that might work.

  It might.  Definitely be a better balance I think.  Italy has a navy that while smaller than Britain's would make an invasion difficult and between them the two Axis powers have the potential to outbuild the allies at sea but its not as immediately overwhelming as Germany and Japan.

  Or alternatively Italy and Japan would have a formidable navy at 1st but if the allies could survive that then they probably have a similar or slightly superior industrial base. 

  I added a paragraph about the importance of considering the geography of making some of those countries islands and also possibly climatic changes to my last post, just in case you don't notice as your replied to it

So should i start a new thread ore edit this one.

[stevep]

Mar 16, 2018 10:56:01 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 16, 2018 10:52:16 GMT stevep said:

  It might.  Definitely be a better balance I think.  Italy has a navy that while smaller than Britain's would make an invasion difficult and between them the two Axis powers have the potential to outbuild the allies at sea but its not as immediately overwhelming as Germany and Japan.

  Or alternatively Italy and Japan would have a formidable navy at 1st but if the allies could survive that then they probably have a similar or slightly superior industrial base. 

  I added a paragraph about the importance of considering the geography of making some of those countries islands and also possibly climatic changes to my last post, just in case you don't notice as your replied to it

So should i start a new thread ore edit this one.

  Up to you.  Are you planning to have it as a shared world 'game' or discussion here? 

  By the do we still have the same leaders?  If so Britain has Chamberlain but without the Norway disaster he could stay on a few weeks/months longer and you might get Halifax or possibly someone else instead of Churchill.  As the most obvious factor that could change in terms of leadership.

  Thinking about it I'm not sure but German might struggle a bit food-wise without food and other material from Russia.  Not sure how much they could feed themselves, although their better off than Britain in terms of being self-sustaining.  That's if you keep them in play.  Plus Italy depended on coal imports from Germany and Japan didn't have a lot of coal supplies themselves unless those are amoung the mines that have now been supplied and they have been made active.  [Amazing how complex those things can get once you start looking at the damned details!]

[lordroel]

Mar 16, 2018 11:21:58 GMT stevep said:

Mar 16, 2018 10:56:01 GMT lordroel said:

So should i start a new thread ore edit this one.

  Up to you.  Are you planning to have it as a shared world 'game' or discussion here? 

  By the do we still have the same leaders?  If so Britain has Chamberlain but without the Norway disaster he could stay on a few weeks/months longer and you might get Halifax or possibly someone else instead of Churchill.  As the most obvious factor that could change in terms of leadership.

  Thinking about it I'm not sure but German might struggle a bit food-wise without food and other material from Russia.  Not sure how much they could feed themselves, although their better off than Britain in terms of being self-sustaining.  That's if you keep them in play.  Plus Italy depended on coal imports from Germany and Japan didn't have a lot of coal supplies themselves unless those are amoung the mines that have now been supplied and they have been made active.  [Amazing how complex those things can get once you start looking at the damned details!]

Both i think, would like to see how the four could compete with each other.

[stevep]

Mar 16, 2018 11:37:02 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 16, 2018 11:21:58 GMT stevep said:

  Up to you.  Are you planning to have it as a shared world 'game' or discussion here? 

  By the do we still have the same leaders?  If so Britain has Chamberlain but without the Norway disaster he could stay on a few weeks/months longer and you might get Halifax or possibly someone else instead of Churchill.  As the most obvious factor that could change in terms of leadership.

  Thinking about it I'm not sure but German might struggle a bit food-wise without food and other material from Russia.  Not sure how much they could feed themselves, although their better off than Britain in terms of being self-sustaining.  That's if you keep them in play.  Plus Italy depended on coal imports from Germany and Japan didn't have a lot of coal supplies themselves unless those are amoung the mines that have now been supplied and they have been made active.  [Amazing how complex those things can get once you start looking at the damned details!]

Both i think, would like to see how the four could compete with each other.

  One other question is are the populations or governments told what has happened or left to find out themselves?  Its one thing that they suddenly find themselves cut off from most of the world and having lost all land links and overseas possessions and another as well to be blundering about until they find out where each other are.  Not to mention that neither Italy nor Japan were at war with Britain or Canada in Sept 39.

  A couple of issues with ships.  Hopefully the return to home will include MS and possibly all civilian expats?  Also what about ships at sea on missions, thinking primarily of the two German pocket battleships as they were called which were on trade raiding missions when the war started.  Probably simplest if their returned to port as well.

[jasonsnow]

Currently, it is impossible to believe Canada will account as a significant fighting force against the Axis, essentially leaving Britain as the sole belligerent element. Now, since Britain is still suffering from WWI's disastrous economic effects and Chamberlain's pacifist policies, most likely Canada will serve as a resource output for Britain and a limited source of infantrymen, as well as a strategic location against both Germany and Japan. It is unlikely, however, Britain could deter both Japan and Germany, even with Britain's extensive naval assets. Utilizing Japanese seafaring elements, Germany could easily carry out an amphibious assault on the British Isles, and since Britain is still under Chamberlain, it is unlikely a hostile opinion could be adopted. The Axis, without the US as an ally, could quite effortlessly invade Canada and seize important resource centers. This could severely affect Britain, who would be unable to bolster a powerful defense force against the Axis, even with its current resources. In conclusion, the Axis would--utilizing Germany's blitzkrieg strategy and seizing the fact that Britain is not on a militarily-effective position--enjoy an easy victory over Canada, multiply their forces and engage on a three-theater war against Britain, which would result in an event similar to our regular timeline's German assault on France: certain victory and utter elimination of the Allies.

[raunchel]

I would predict a stalemate developing. None of these powers have even close to the resources to gain sufficient advantage over other to have even a hope to mount a successful invasion of the other.

The only country that I might see falling is Canada, because its army is just too small. That would have to be done quickly however, before the Brits can send enough reinforcements over to make that very hard indeed. The combined Japanese and Germans might just be able to pull it off.

But whatever happens, after that initial fighting, further invasions are incredibly hard. Just look at what Overlord took, and that was against a power that wasn't nearly as concentrated as what you would see here, probably without such air superiority, and with vastly longer supply lines. That's a recipe for a massive disaster.

That in turn leaves only the navies and air forces in play. They will all need strategic bombers and long-range escorts to do anything, and it will take time to develop sufficient numbers to be able to really be able to hurt the others.

Naval warfare will also be interesting. In a fleet engagement, I could see the Japanese badly defeating the British, if only because of their better carriers, but it will be hard to translate that into a permanent victory. Coming too close to the mainland will always be a very painful experience because of land-based aircraft and light attacking craft. But a few raids could be mounted.

That situation would last for quite some time, until serious heavy bomber forces are built up at least. Those however still lack the ability to defeat anyone, because at the same time, large numbers of defensive fighters and the like would be available.

The only real way to end all this is Tobe Alloys or the German post office succeeding, but that will take a lot of time (and at least uranium could be found in parts of Germany, I don't really know about the other countries). Such things however will be hard to do in this kind of war, and even then, in the face of serious defenses delivery is a very big problem.

[stevep]

Mar 29, 2018 6:27:34 GMT raunchel said:

I would predict a stalemate developing. None of these powers have even close to the resources to gain sufficient advantage over other to have even a hope to mount a successful invasion of the other.

The only country that I might see falling is Canada, because its army is just too small. That would have to be done quickly however, before the Brits can send enough reinforcements over to make that very hard indeed. The combined Japanese and Germans might just be able to pull it off.

But whatever happens, after that initial fighting, further invasions are incredibly hard. Just look at what Overlord took, and that was against a power that wasn't nearly as concentrated as what you would see here, probably without such air superiority, and with vastly longer supply lines. That's a recipe for a massive disaster.

That in turn leaves only the navies and air forces in play. They will all need strategic bombers and long-range escorts to do anything, and it will take time to develop sufficient numbers to be able to really be able to hurt the others.

Naval warfare will also be interesting. In a fleet engagement, I could see the Japanese badly defeating the British, if only because of their better carriers, but it will be hard to translate that into a permanent victory. Coming too close to the mainland will always be a very painful experience because of land-based aircraft and light attacking craft. But a few raids could be mounted.

That situation would last for quite some time, until serious heavy bomber forces are built up at least. Those however still lack the ability to defeat anyone, because at the same time, large numbers of defensive fighters and the like would be available.

The only real way to end all this is Tobe Alloys or the German post office succeeding, but that will take a lot of time (and at least uranium could be found in parts of Germany, I don't really know about the other countries). Such things however will be hard to do in this kind of war, and even then, in the face of serious defenses delivery is a very big problem.

  Would agree here.  While Chamberlain has a bad reputation, which in many ways were earned by Sept 39 he was committed to the defeat of Germany and the country was tooling up more rapidly than Germany, although some way behind and the loss of investments in the US and elsewhere would be a problem.

  Also that the main vulnerability would be for Canada.  Its small population and military makes it vulnerable and even when aid arrives from Britain its got a huge coastline to guard.  Especially since none of it is arctic now.  [At least unless there are some huge continued ASB intervention to maintain the OTL climate.]  I could see Japan being a serious threat here because it has a large army, much of it now freed up from China, a decent merchant marine, a powerful fleet and experience of amphibious assaults.  The RN would be likely to suffer badly in clashes with the IJN, although the latter has an earlier generation of a/c at the moment, no Zeros for instance, and two less fleet carriers.  However the Japanese tended not to defend their supply lines very well and had a more limited industrial base at the time as well as a reliance on fanatical infantry rather than firepower.  Hence its possible that Japanese forces landing could be isolated and defeated.

  Agree that any invasion of Britain is unlikely to succeed since at minimum of 500km range few a/c could operate against it from either enemy and with the radar and fighter defence system being well advanced its going to be very difficult for any invader with basically no air support.  Not to mention what impact the RN will have on the invaders.

  As you say the deciding factor is likely to eventually be nuclear development and I would say the allies have the edge here.  Especially if they include the refugees already in Britain in Sept 39 who originally starting the British programme.  They have more open societies and hence are far less restricted by ideology and the short sighted views of the fascist dictatorships.  Also in Canada they have the land to actually do the research, development and testing and build up the economic base and especially the huge power supply needed for developing such weapons.  Also Britain has already started on the path to development of large heavy bombers, which while they will be unsuccessful against Germany might be effective against Japan but would be necessary for the delivery of the early and very large nuclear devices. [One nasty question here is that if the "will have to fight each other until only one alliance stands as the winner" means the ASB installs fanatical resistance it could mean a virtual policy of extermination would be required by either side but hope Lordroel isn't being that extreme.]

  A lot depends on how broad a range of items are being produced by the mines Lordroel allocated to each power.  The oil fields enable all four powers to maintain and probably expand military activity.  If the mines supply all productions needed including relatively rare metals such as tungsten, manganese, titanium and aluminum then potentially the war could be very long.  If their more restricted the allies might, if avoiding the early loss of Canada, have the edge because it is very mineral rich.  [Again here uranium is another issue as vital for nuclear development].