What if the Nazis had taken the right naval approach?

[jasonsnow]

The Germans had a faulty approach when it came to naval affairs. Hitler was, personally, more interested in massive columns of fast-moving infantrymen and monstrous tanks blitzkrieg-ing their way across Europe than ships on the sea who couldn't - in theory - directly interfere in the military actions of the land. And when he did had his attention on the German Kriegsmarine, it was to build massive, 45,000-ton battleships which couldn't be easily replaced, rather than assembling a bigger, more effective fleet of corvettes, minelayers, troop carriers and landing craft, which was one of the main components of the inconclusive Operation Sea Lion.

But let's say Hitler wasn't a crackpot and was able to wisely utilize his resources to develop a careful naval force, focused on small craft rather than a few, titanic battleships and cruisers. He invests his resources to finalize this grand operation by 1938, having a fully-functional, highly-effective navy by the time Germany invades Poland.

How could the war occur differently?

[raunchel]

There would certainly have been a lot of changes in the war, especially on the naval side. If the Germans focus on light forces, the British will of course also make changes to their fleet composition and they would certainly be building more escorts and the like. But I don't know how much that would influence things.

[steffen]

Oh my god...

the germans build 4 battleships... 2 were basically ordered by the weimar republic (later as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau known), the other two were Bismarck and Tirpitz.

For sure that was wasted money and strategic material, but these light forces would have had less impact.

Tirpitz in its existence bounded massive allied naval ressources, even with the ship mostly laying in a fjord doing nothing.

the only better way to use the ressources would have been to build factories for batteries and modern diesels, so the germans could have build S-boats and subs in larger numbers.
But they had no big problems in defending their convoys from norway or sweden to germany (that was the ONLY use for the navy after norway was taken and the raiders had been closed out of the atlantic).

Yes, building 20-30 AMC, that are ready to "vanish" in the oceans would have been a good idea, but that is hindsight.
Also, the germans could not know that they beat the french so easily and gain the atlantic ports.

Also important, the germans lacked in the critical phase of modernisation (from 1920-36) the possibility to build war engines... so their high pressure engines were - on paper - the "best", but in reallity they suffered by bad design, high failure quota and an immense "repair/yard-to combat ratio"... That was a direct consequence of the Versailles Treaty

Overall the german navy fought hard, very hard against all odds... but its fate was sealed at september 1st... finis germnia... Raeder did use this code not for nothing...

But no, the british navy allready reacted massivly to the german shipbuilding.. there was no room - in peacetime to do more. Many people ignore the contracts for light forces, that were ordered in 1937-39 for the Royal Navy.

[lordroel]

Apr 20, 2018 13:53:16 GMT jasonsnow said:

The Germans had a faulty approach when it came to naval affairs. Hitler was, personally, more interested in massive columns of fast-moving infantrymen and monstrous tanks blitzkrieg-ing their way across Europe than ships on the sea who couldn't - in theory - directly interfere in the military actions of the land. And when he did had his attention on the German Kriegsmarine, it was to build massive, 45,000-ton battleships which couldn't be easily replaced, rather than assembling a bigger, more effective fleet of corvettes, minelayers, troop carriers and landing craft, which was one of the main components of the inconclusive Operation Sea Lion.

But let's say Hitler wasn't a crackpot and was able to wisely utilize his resources to develop a careful naval force, focused on small craft rather than a few, titanic battleships and cruisers. He invests his resources to finalize this grand operation by 1938, having a fully-functional, highly-effective navy by the time Germany invades Poland.

How could the war occur differently?

This might help, found it someday on the net.

(Kriegsmarine) Third Reich

Of special note is the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, which limited Germany's navy to 35% of the Royal Navy for all ship types, with an exception for submarines (aka Germany was allowed to build of each class up to 35% of the Royal Navy's tonnage of that specific class). In regards to submarines, Germany was allowed to have its total submarine tonnage be no more than 45% of the Royal Navy's total submarine tonnage (I think; the wording of paragraph f in the link above is chock full of "legalese" and hard to decipher which "total tonnage" the 45% refers to, the RN's submarine tonnage or its total tonnage). Germany's goals in pursuing the agreement was to get British approval in regards to expanding the German navy and therefore improve relations, and to send a signal to the UK that Germany didn't want to repeat the pre-WW1 naval arms race. The UK's goal with the agreement was to limit Germany to building a "balanced fleet", which the UK felt was much less dangerous and easier to destroy than a Kreuzerkrieg (cruiser war) fleet. The UK felt that a German navy composed entirely of cruisers and submarines would be devastating to the UK and very difficult to defeat, and thus felt it won a victory when Germany agreed to limit construction to 35% of the UK's fleet on a per-class basis.

Germany, ships commissioned in 1936

* 2 Deutschland-class pre-Dreadnought Battleships (despite having the same class-name as the Panzerschiffe, these are actual battleships commissioned in 1908; these old pre-dreadnoughts were hopelessly obsolete when commissioned, let alone in 1936; the Schleswig-Holstein fired the first shots of WW2 by attacking the Polish base at Westerplatte)
* 2 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe (fancy name for heavy cruisers with 11" guns instead of the 8" guns every other CA used due to treaty limitations, these ships were to be used as commerce raiders)
* 3 K-class light cruisers
* 1 Emden-class light cruiser
* 1 Leipzig-class light cruiser
* 1 Nürnberg-class light cruiser
* 12 Möwe-class heavy torpedo boats (these ships were the size of destroyers but armed exclusively with AA guns, mines, and torpedoes; these are the destroyers in the 1936 OOB)
* 8 Type IIB-class submarines (the Type IIs were coastal subs)
* 6 Type IIA-class submarines

Germany, ships launched by 1936:

* 1 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe
* 4 1934-class Destroyers
* 10 Type IIB-class submarines
* 2 Type I-class submarines (ocean-going subs)

Even before the rise of Hitler and the NSDAP, Germany was considering attempt to rearm its navy in violation of Versailles. In 1932, Reichswehrminister Wilhelm Groener presented a plan to build a carrier, expand Germany's destroyer force (which didn't exist at the time), and establish naval aviation and submarine arms for the Reichsmarine. To this end, after WW1 the Weimar Republic created a dummy Dutch firm known as NV Ingenieurskantoor voor Scheepsbouw, which designed, built, and sold submarines to Turkey, Finland, the USSR, and Spain. IvS also designed the Scharnhort-class ships and their Dutch equivalent, the Design 1047-class battlecruiser. The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were designed shortly after the NSDAP coming to power and after the 1934 Build Plan below was created. The Anglo-German Naval Agreement was critical to Germany in part due to the fact that the Scharnhorst was already under construction, and Hitler wanted to legitimize its construction with the UK.

Germany, 1934 Build Plan (pre German-Anglo Naval Agreement), additional ships only:

* 3 Aircraft Carriers (none started)
* 0 or 2 Battleships (the first two Panzerschiffe in this plan were upgraded to fast battleships in response to the French Dunkerque and became the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau; this was done prior to the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, so I put those ships here since their funding came from this build plan)
* 8 or 6 Panzerschiffe (the KMS Graf Spee was started prior to this plan and not included in the 8 additional ships; 2 of these ships were upgraded to battleships in the design phase)
* 18 cruisers (no distinction made between heavy and light in the source I found; I would assume CLs)
* 48 destroyers
* 72 submarines

So, to sum that up, the 1934 build plan would result in a Kriegsmarine consisting of, using in-game units, 2 BC (the pre-dreadnoughts), 3 CV, 11 CA, 24 CL, 10-16 DD (depends on if you want DD units to be 3 ships or 5), 7-15 SS (depends on if you think subs units have 5 ships or 10), and be completed by 1949. The reason for the long buildup time is because when this plan was made, Germany still had to adhere to the Versaille Treaty limitations, and the Germans felt that by 1949 they could've gained the necessary knowledge to build aircraft carriers (Germany had started converting the passenger liner Ausonia into a carrier near the end of WW1, but didn't finish it, and thus had no experience building such ships since then) and change the global political situation to allow them to build the larger ships. Germany also didn't want to antagonize the UK, which Hitler sought in 1934 as a potential ally against the French and Soviets.

Of note is that the 26 submarines (the 4 in-game units) completed or "in the build queue" in the 1936 start are from this build plan, as well as the destroyers in the build queue. I have no idea what the level II destroyers already finished in the '36 vanilla OOB are, because the level II destroyers in the build queue are the 4 1934-class destroyers I mentioned above. The level I destroyers are the Möwe-class heavy torpedo boats. Also, building the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as a replacement for two of the Panzerschiffe would fit into the '34 build plan, because those ships were designed and construction started shortly after the '34 build plan was made, after Hitler was persuaded to upgrade the ships from being Panzerschiffe to battleships.

Later expansion plans, Germany, 1938 Bauplan III, total fleet size:

* 6 H-class Battleships
* 2 Bismarck-class Battleships (designed for both commerce raiding and surface combat)
* 2 Scharnhorst-class Battleships/Battlecruisers (the Royal Navy called them BCs due to their small guns, while everyone else called the BBs; after the war the RN reclassed them as BBs; they were designed for commerce raiding)
* 2 Graf Zeppelin-class Aircraft Carriers
* 6 unknown-class Aircraft Carriers
* 12 P-class Panzerschiffe
* 3 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe
* 5 Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruisers (These used 8" guns just like every other CA in the world outside of the Panzerschiffe; designed for commerce raiding)
* 24 M-class light cruisers (these would've been scouts for the commerce raiders)
* 36 Spähkreuzer-class heavy destroyers (these would've been screens for the battleships and carriers, their name translates to "scout cruiser")
* 158 Destroyers and Torpedo Boats
* 249 Submarines

Note that the 2 pre-dreadnoughts and the light cruisers that Germany gets in vanilla aren't counted here. The whole fleet was supposed to be completed by '47. You won't see the Spähkreuzer destroyers in a vanilla game either, and will either need to play a mod that has a destroyer model for them (HPP for sure, maybe others), or a mod that has heavy destroyers, like ICE.

Germany, 1939 Plan Z (A revision of the 1938 build plan), total fleet size

* 6 H-class Battleships
* 3 O-class Battleships/Battlecruisers (depends on how you classify them, and varies by source; these ships had BB-type guns but cruiser-type armor and were to be commerce raiders).
* 2 Bismarck-class Battleships
* 2 Scharnhorst-class Battleships/Battlecruisers
* 2 Graf Zeppelin-class Aircraft Carriers
* 2 unknown-class Aircraft Carriers (since design work was never started, the class was never named).
* 12 P-class Panzerschiffe
* 3 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe
* 5 Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruisers
* 12 M-class light cruisers
* 3 K-class light cruisers
* 1 Emden-class light cruiser
* 1 Leipzig-class light cruiser
* 1 Nürnberg-class light cruiser
* 22 Spähkreuzer-class heavy destroyers
* 158 Destroyers and Torpedo Boats
* 249 Submarines

The new ships in this plan were to be finished by 1945, the original planned year Hitler wanted to start the war. As a side note, Rügen Island was supposed to be transformed into Germany's main naval base as part of this plan.

To sum this up, Plan Z would've been centered around 4 core battle fleets consisting of 2 BBs, 1 CV, and 5 Spähkreuzer destroyers each, while the 5 BCs, 20 CAs, 18 CLs, and 249 SSs performed convoy raiding using the CL's as spotters. The remaining destroyers and torpedo boats would've been in a separate branch, performing coastal patrols and convoy escorting.

Germany, what it really built after 1936, new construction only:

* 2 H39-class Battleships (construction started, neither launched nor named)
* 2 Bismarck-class Battleships
* 2 Scharnhorst-class Battleships/Battlecruisers
* 2 Graf Zeppelin-class Aircraft Carriers (1 was launched, the other was started but not launched; neither ship was finished)
* 1 Europa-class Aircraft Carrier (converted troop transport, never finished)
* 5 Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruisers (3 were commissioned, 2 launched but not completed; Lützow was sold to the USSR, Seydlitz repurposed)
* 1 Weser-class Aircraft Carrier (converted Admiral Hipper CA Seydlitz, never finished)
* 2 Jade-class Aircraft Carrier (converted merchant ships Potsdam, and Gneisenau, never finished)
* 1 De Grasse-class Aircraft Carrier (converted French CL, never finished)
* 2 M-class light cruisers (construction started in '38, neither finished)
* 0 1944-class destroyers (8 planned, none finished; these ships were the resulting design from experience from the 1942-class)
* 0 1942-class destroyers (1 planned as an experiment with diesel engines, sunk by Allied bombers during construction)
* 0 1938B-class destroyers (12 ordered, all cancelled)
* 0 1938A/Ac-class destroyers (3 ordered, all cancelled)
* 0 1936C-class destroyers (6 ordered, all cancelled)
* 3 1936B-class destroyers (5 ordered, 2 cancelled)
* 7 1936A "Mob"-class destroyers
* 8 1936A "Narvik"-class destroyers
* 6 1936-class destroyers
* 12 1934A-class destroyers
* 61 Type XXIII-class submarines (coastal version of the Type XXI, these were by far the fastest subs in the world at the time).
* 118 Type XXI-class submarines (these subs had triple the battery power of the Type VII's and could operate mostly submerged).
* 7 Type XVII-class submarines (17 planned, 10 cancelled; these were experimental ships that used High-test peroxide as its fuel).
* 10 Type XIV-class submarines (24 planned, 14 cancelled; these ships only had AA guns and were used to supply other subs).
* 8 Type X-class submarines (these mainly acted as transport subs rather than combat ones).
* 32 Type IXD-class submarines (36 ordered, 4 cancelled; these mainly acted as transport subs rather than combat ones).
* 87 Type IXC/40-class submarines
* 54 Type IXC-class submarines
* 14 Type IXB-class submarine
* 8 Type IXA-class submarines
* 0 Type VIIC/42-class submarines (164 ordered, all cancelled in favor of the new Type XXI).
* 91+ Type VIIC/41-class submarines (91 commissioned, possibly more under construction).
* 568+ Type VIIC-class submarines (568 commissioned, possibly more under construction).
* 24 Type VIIB-class submarines
* 10 Type VIIA-class submarines
* 16 Type IID-class submarines
* 8 Type IIC-class submarines
* 2 Type IIB-class submarines

[jasonsnow]

Apr 20, 2018 17:01:33 GMT steffen said:

Oh my god...

the germans build 4 battleships... 2 were basically ordered by the weimar republic (later as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau known), the other two were Bismarck and Tirpitz.

For sure that was wasted money and strategic material, but these light forces would have had less impact.

Tirpitz in its existence bounded massive allied naval ressources, even with the ship mostly laying in a fjord doing nothing.

the only better way to use the ressources would have been to build factories for batteries and modern diesels, so the germans could have build S-boats and subs in larger numbers.
But they had no big problems in defending their convoys from norway or sweden to germany (that was the ONLY use for the navy after norway was taken and the raiders had been closed out of the atlantic).

Yes, building 20-30 AMC, that are ready to "vanish" in the oceans would have been a good idea, but that is hindsight.
Also, the germans could not know that they beat the french so easily and gain the atlantic ports.

Also important, the germans lacked in the critical phase of modernisation (from 1920-36) the possibility to build war engines... so their high pressure engines were - on paper - the "best", but in reallity they suffered by bad design, high failure quota and an immense "repair/yard-to combat ratio"... That was a direct consequence of the Versailles Treaty

Overall the german navy fought hard, very hard against all odds... but its fate was sealed at september 1st... finis germnia... Raeder did use this code not for nothing...

But no, the british navy allready reacted massivly to the german shipbuilding.. there was no room - in peacetime to do more. Many people ignore the contracts for light forces, that were ordered in 1937-39 for the Royal Navy.

Germany took the wrong naval approach. If, from the very start, they had amassed a more strategic and movable fleet rather than beastly battleships, they could've conducted Operation Sea Lion with more ease. The lack of naval might to countermine the BRN, as well as the failed Battle of Britain, led to the dissolution of Hitler's plans. But, a strategic mistake which directly contributed to the Nazis' demise was the lack of a proper navy, so changing this could prove drastically beneficial for the Germans one way or another. They could succeed if they just made things right. 

[jasonsnow]

Apr 20, 2018 20:09:58 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 20, 2018 13:53:16 GMT jasonsnow said:

The Germans had a faulty approach when it came to naval affairs. Hitler was, personally, more interested in massive columns of fast-moving infantrymen and monstrous tanks blitzkrieg-ing their way across Europe than ships on the sea who couldn't - in theory - directly interfere in the military actions of the land. And when he did had his attention on the German Kriegsmarine, it was to build massive, 45,000-ton battleships which couldn't be easily replaced, rather than assembling a bigger, more effective fleet of corvettes, minelayers, troop carriers and landing craft, which was one of the main components of the inconclusive Operation Sea Lion.

But let's say Hitler wasn't a crackpot and was able to wisely utilize his resources to develop a careful naval force, focused on small craft rather than a few, titanic battleships and cruisers. He invests his resources to finalize this grand operation by 1938, having a fully-functional, highly-effective navy by the time Germany invades Poland.

How could the war occur differently?

This might help, found it someday on the net.

(Kriegsmarine) Third Reich

Of special note is the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, which limited Germany's navy to 35% of the Royal Navy for all ship types, with an exception for submarines (aka Germany was allowed to build of each class up to 35% of the Royal Navy's tonnage of that specific class). In regards to submarines, Germany was allowed to have its total submarine tonnage be no more than 45% of the Royal Navy's total submarine tonnage (I think; the wording of paragraph f in the link above is chock full of "legalese" and hard to decipher which "total tonnage" the 45% refers to, the RN's submarine tonnage or its total tonnage). Germany's goals in pursuing the agreement was to get British approval in regards to expanding the German navy and therefore improve relations, and to send a signal to the UK that Germany didn't want to repeat the pre-WW1 naval arms race. The UK's goal with the agreement was to limit Germany to building a "balanced fleet", which the UK felt was much less dangerous and easier to destroy than a Kreuzerkrieg (cruiser war) fleet. The UK felt that a German navy composed entirely of cruisers and submarines would be devastating to the UK and very difficult to defeat, and thus felt it won a victory when Germany agreed to limit construction to 35% of the UK's fleet on a per-class basis.

Germany, ships commissioned in 1936

* 2 Deutschland-class pre-Dreadnought Battleships (despite having the same class-name as the Panzerschiffe, these are actual battleships commissioned in 1908; these old pre-dreadnoughts were hopelessly obsolete when commissioned, let alone in 1936; the Schleswig-Holstein fired the first shots of WW2 by attacking the Polish base at Westerplatte)
* 2 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe (fancy name for heavy cruisers with 11" guns instead of the 8" guns every other CA used due to treaty limitations, these ships were to be used as commerce raiders)
* 3 K-class light cruisers
* 1 Emden-class light cruiser
* 1 Leipzig-class light cruiser
* 1 Nürnberg-class light cruiser
* 12 Möwe-class heavy torpedo boats (these ships were the size of destroyers but armed exclusively with AA guns, mines, and torpedoes; these are the destroyers in the 1936 OOB)
* 8 Type IIB-class submarines (the Type IIs were coastal subs)
* 6 Type IIA-class submarines

Germany, ships launched by 1936:

* 1 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe
* 4 1934-class Destroyers
* 10 Type IIB-class submarines
* 2 Type I-class submarines (ocean-going subs)

Even before the rise of Hitler and the NSDAP, Germany was considering attempt to rearm its navy in violation of Versailles. In 1932, Reichswehrminister Wilhelm Groener presented a plan to build a carrier, expand Germany's destroyer force (which didn't exist at the time), and establish naval aviation and submarine arms for the Reichsmarine. To this end, after WW1 the Weimar Republic created a dummy Dutch firm known as NV Ingenieurskantoor voor Scheepsbouw, which designed, built, and sold submarines to Turkey, Finland, the USSR, and Spain. IvS also designed the Scharnhort-class ships and their Dutch equivalent, the Design 1047-class battlecruiser. The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were designed shortly after the NSDAP coming to power and after the 1934 Build Plan below was created. The Anglo-German Naval Agreement was critical to Germany in part due to the fact that the Scharnhorst was already under construction, and Hitler wanted to legitimize its construction with the UK.

Germany, 1934 Build Plan (pre German-Anglo Naval Agreement), additional ships only:

* 3 Aircraft Carriers (none started)
* 0 or 2 Battleships (the first two Panzerschiffe in this plan were upgraded to fast battleships in response to the French Dunkerque and became the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau; this was done prior to the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, so I put those ships here since their funding came from this build plan)
* 8 or 6 Panzerschiffe (the KMS Graf Spee was started prior to this plan and not included in the 8 additional ships; 2 of these ships were upgraded to battleships in the design phase)
* 18 cruisers (no distinction made between heavy and light in the source I found; I would assume CLs)
* 48 destroyers
* 72 submarines

So, to sum that up, the 1934 build plan would result in a Kriegsmarine consisting of, using in-game units, 2 BC (the pre-dreadnoughts), 3 CV, 11 CA, 24 CL, 10-16 DD (depends on if you want DD units to be 3 ships or 5), 7-15 SS (depends on if you think subs units have 5 ships or 10), and be completed by 1949. The reason for the long buildup time is because when this plan was made, Germany still had to adhere to the Versaille Treaty limitations, and the Germans felt that by 1949 they could've gained the necessary knowledge to build aircraft carriers (Germany had started converting the passenger liner Ausonia into a carrier near the end of WW1, but didn't finish it, and thus had no experience building such ships since then) and change the global political situation to allow them to build the larger ships. Germany also didn't want to antagonize the UK, which Hitler sought in 1934 as a potential ally against the French and Soviets.

Of note is that the 26 submarines (the 4 in-game units) completed or "in the build queue" in the 1936 start are from this build plan, as well as the destroyers in the build queue. I have no idea what the level II destroyers already finished in the '36 vanilla OOB are, because the level II destroyers in the build queue are the 4 1934-class destroyers I mentioned above. The level I destroyers are the Möwe-class heavy torpedo boats. Also, building the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as a replacement for two of the Panzerschiffe would fit into the '34 build plan, because those ships were designed and construction started shortly after the '34 build plan was made, after Hitler was persuaded to upgrade the ships from being Panzerschiffe to battleships.

Later expansion plans, Germany, 1938 Bauplan III, total fleet size:

* 6 H-class Battleships
* 2 Bismarck-class Battleships (designed for both commerce raiding and surface combat)
* 2 Scharnhorst-class Battleships/Battlecruisers (the Royal Navy called them BCs due to their small guns, while everyone else called the BBs; after the war the RN reclassed them as BBs; they were designed for commerce raiding)
* 2 Graf Zeppelin-class Aircraft Carriers
* 6 unknown-class Aircraft Carriers
* 12 P-class Panzerschiffe
* 3 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe
* 5 Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruisers (These used 8" guns just like every other CA in the world outside of the Panzerschiffe; designed for commerce raiding)
* 24 M-class light cruisers (these would've been scouts for the commerce raiders)
* 36 Spähkreuzer-class heavy destroyers (these would've been screens for the battleships and carriers, their name translates to "scout cruiser")
* 158 Destroyers and Torpedo Boats
* 249 Submarines

Note that the 2 pre-dreadnoughts and the light cruisers that Germany gets in vanilla aren't counted here. The whole fleet was supposed to be completed by '47. You won't see the Spähkreuzer destroyers in a vanilla game either, and will either need to play a mod that has a destroyer model for them (HPP for sure, maybe others), or a mod that has heavy destroyers, like ICE.

Germany, 1939 Plan Z (A revision of the 1938 build plan), total fleet size

* 6 H-class Battleships
* 3 O-class Battleships/Battlecruisers (depends on how you classify them, and varies by source; these ships had BB-type guns but cruiser-type armor and were to be commerce raiders).
* 2 Bismarck-class Battleships
* 2 Scharnhorst-class Battleships/Battlecruisers
* 2 Graf Zeppelin-class Aircraft Carriers
* 2 unknown-class Aircraft Carriers (since design work was never started, the class was never named).
* 12 P-class Panzerschiffe
* 3 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe
* 5 Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruisers
* 12 M-class light cruisers
* 3 K-class light cruisers
* 1 Emden-class light cruiser
* 1 Leipzig-class light cruiser
* 1 Nürnberg-class light cruiser
* 22 Spähkreuzer-class heavy destroyers
* 158 Destroyers and Torpedo Boats
* 249 Submarines

The new ships in this plan were to be finished by 1945, the original planned year Hitler wanted to start the war. As a side note, Rügen Island was supposed to be transformed into Germany's main naval base as part of this plan.

To sum this up, Plan Z would've been centered around 4 core battle fleets consisting of 2 BBs, 1 CV, and 5 Spähkreuzer destroyers each, while the 5 BCs, 20 CAs, 18 CLs, and 249 SSs performed convoy raiding using the CL's as spotters. The remaining destroyers and torpedo boats would've been in a separate branch, performing coastal patrols and convoy escorting.

Germany, what it really built after 1936, new construction only:

* 2 H39-class Battleships (construction started, neither launched nor named)
* 2 Bismarck-class Battleships
* 2 Scharnhorst-class Battleships/Battlecruisers
* 2 Graf Zeppelin-class Aircraft Carriers (1 was launched, the other was started but not launched; neither ship was finished)
* 1 Europa-class Aircraft Carrier (converted troop transport, never finished)
* 5 Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruisers (3 were commissioned, 2 launched but not completed; Lützow was sold to the USSR, Seydlitz repurposed)
* 1 Weser-class Aircraft Carrier (converted Admiral Hipper CA Seydlitz, never finished)
* 2 Jade-class Aircraft Carrier (converted merchant ships Potsdam, and Gneisenau, never finished)
* 1 De Grasse-class Aircraft Carrier (converted French CL, never finished)
* 2 M-class light cruisers (construction started in '38, neither finished)
* 0 1944-class destroyers (8 planned, none finished; these ships were the resulting design from experience from the 1942-class)
* 0 1942-class destroyers (1 planned as an experiment with diesel engines, sunk by Allied bombers during construction)
* 0 1938B-class destroyers (12 ordered, all cancelled)
* 0 1938A/Ac-class destroyers (3 ordered, all cancelled)
* 0 1936C-class destroyers (6 ordered, all cancelled)
* 3 1936B-class destroyers (5 ordered, 2 cancelled)
* 7 1936A "Mob"-class destroyers
* 8 1936A "Narvik"-class destroyers
* 6 1936-class destroyers
* 12 1934A-class destroyers
* 61 Type XXIII-class submarines (coastal version of the Type XXI, these were by far the fastest subs in the world at the time).
* 118 Type XXI-class submarines (these subs had triple the battery power of the Type VII's and could operate mostly submerged).
* 7 Type XVII-class submarines (17 planned, 10 cancelled; these were experimental ships that used High-test peroxide as its fuel).
* 10 Type XIV-class submarines (24 planned, 14 cancelled; these ships only had AA guns and were used to supply other subs).
* 8 Type X-class submarines (these mainly acted as transport subs rather than combat ones).
* 32 Type IXD-class submarines (36 ordered, 4 cancelled; these mainly acted as transport subs rather than combat ones).
* 87 Type IXC/40-class submarines
* 54 Type IXC-class submarines
* 14 Type IXB-class submarine
* 8 Type IXA-class submarines
* 0 Type VIIC/42-class submarines (164 ordered, all cancelled in favor of the new Type XXI).
* 91+ Type VIIC/41-class submarines (91 commissioned, possibly more under construction).
* 568+ Type VIIC-class submarines (568 commissioned, possibly more under construction).
* 24 Type VIIB-class submarines
* 10 Type VIIA-class submarines
* 16 Type IID-class submarines
* 8 Type IIC-class submarines
* 2 Type IIB-class submarines

Oh my God... That is beautiful... 

[jasonsnow]

Apr 20, 2018 16:06:13 GMT raunchel said:

There would certainly have been a lot of changes in the war, especially on the naval side. If the Germans focus on light forces, the British will of course also make changes to their fleet composition and they would certainly be building more escorts and the like. But I don't know how much that would influence things.

Can we see a proper conduction of Operation Sea Lion? I mean, they would have the landing craft and means to momentarily disrupt the British, so... what do ya think?

[lordroel]

Apr 20, 2018 22:58:41 GMT jasonsnow said:

Apr 20, 2018 16:06:13 GMT raunchel said:

There would certainly have been a lot of changes in the war, especially on the naval side. If the Germans focus on light forces, the British will of course also make changes to their fleet composition and they would certainly be building more escorts and the like. But I don't know how much that would influence things.

Can we see a proper conduction of Operation Sea Lion? I mean, they would have the landing craft and means to momentarily disrupt the British, so... what do ya think?

Nope, unless Hitler is a naval nut and cuts back on tanks and planes to do it, that is what i think.

[stevep]

Apr 21, 2018 7:19:34 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 20, 2018 22:58:41 GMT jasonsnow said:

Can we see a proper conduction of Operation Sea Lion? I mean, they would have the landing craft and means to momentarily disrupt the British, so... what do ya think?

Nope, unless Hitler is a naval nut and cuts back on tanks and planes to do it, that is what i think.

  Plus as it said in the rules for an old game, if Germany starts building units for an amphibious invasion force prior to war actually starting British intelligence goes TILT!. 

  Not to mention Germany was operating very much on a shoestring of resources because the build up was so rushed.  Without many of those tanks and a/c their likely to see French armour in the Rhur while their trying to land forces in Britain - which are still most likely to reach landfall at the bottom of the North Sea.

[lordroel]

Seems i also made a article related to Plan Z called: What if: Germany completed plan Z.

Also a nice article from Avalanche press called the The Politics of Plan Z

Erich Raeder wanted battleships.

Raeder took command of the Reichsmarine, the Weimar Republic’s Navy, in 1928. Raeder’s predecessor, Hans Zenker, had believed that Germany could not hope to match the fleets of her potential enemies and should instead build ships maximized for commerce raiding, like the so-called “pocket battleships.” Raeder detested the pocket battleships and apparently detested Zenker too. The two had clashed repeatedly during the First World War, when Raeder often overstepped his authority as chief of staff to Admiral Franz Hipper, commander of the High Seas Fleet’s scouting forces, and Zenker commanded the battle cruiser von der Tann (it’s no coincidence that the name von der Tann would never be applied to a new ship under Raeder’s reign).

Raeder presented his first program for rebuilding the fleet in 1929, proposing that Germany build an aircraft carrier, six battleships, six cruisers, 48 destroyers plus submarines and other craft. That program foundered, as did smaller versions that followed, on the solid rock of the Army’s primacy in the struggle for the Weimar Republic’s limited financial means.

The admiral’s hard-line right-wing politics sympathized with Adolf Hitler’s Nazi Party, but he was crushed when the Nazis voted against his fleet construction program. Hitler proclaimed that Germany’s enemies were Poland and the Soviet Union, and no fleet was necessary to fight them – resources diverted to battleships would only weaken the Army.

When Hitler took power in early 1933, Raeder told associates that he, Raeder, would use his powers of persuasion to convert Hitler to navalism – the belief in the primacy of sea power as the foundation of national strength. Raeder had already declared himself the Second Tirpitz, and appears to have deeply believed in his own skills.

Soon after becoming Chancellor, Hitler began a series of steps that would lead to a vast increase in the Reichsmarine, the German Navy. While Raeder apparently believed that he had convinced Hitler, the dictator had a shrewd grasp of human psychology and expertly fed Raeder’s dreams of a huge new construction program.

Hitler considered it vital to break down the Versailles Treaty system, and believed he could force a wedge into it through a naval armaments agreement with Great Britain. Preliminary talks began a little more than a year after Hitler’s accession as Chancellor, and by 1935 the Anglo-German Naval Agreement had been finalized.

Germany did far better than even Hitler had expected. Britain agreed that Germany could build a fleet equal to 35 percent of British tonnage in all categories except submarines; the Germans could match 100% of British tonnage in that category. Hitler told Raeder to move ahead with plans for two more “pocket battleships,” but now they could be expanded from 10,000-ton armored cruisers to 25,000-ton battle cruisers.

The ships that became Scharnhorst and Gneisenau drew heavily on the old Imperial Navy’s battle cruiser designs, but would always be called “battleships” by the Kriegsmarine, as the Reichsmarine now formally became. While Raeder and Hitler discussed arming the two new ships with 350mm (13.8-inch) or 380mm (15-inch) guns, Krupp had already begun work on the 280mm (11-inch) turrets for the new armored cruisers, and these would be the heavy weapons installed on the new ships.

Raeder finally had his battleships, even if they were very weak ones, and received permission to start work on first-rate battleships. Drafting work on a new battleship – one heavily influenced by old Imperial Navy design practices – had begun in 1932, before Hitler’s rise to power. The naval agreement would have allowed 406mm (16-inch) guns as the ships’ main armament, but Krupp had already invested in developing a 15-inch gun during design work for Scharnhorst and now lobbied heavily for this weapon’s use in the new ships. Raeder told Hitler that the 15-inch gun would be acceptable to the Navy, and the Führer went along on political grounds, as this would be less threatening to the British.

Plans for a much larger fleet expansion program began to take shape in 1938. British reactions to the German annexations of the Sudetenland and Austria convinced Hitler that a future war with Britain had become likely, and to wage such a war Germany would need a more powerful Navy. Plan X, centered on six large battleships, gave way to Plan Y, which put more emphasis on a successor to the “pocket battleships” to serve as a long-range commerce raider. Plan Z simply tossed all of the different factions’ wish lists into one, and this was the plan Raeder presented in Hitler in January 1939. After some revisions Hitler approved the plan, and granted the Kriegsmarine top priority for funding and materials (particularly steel).

The ten-year plan called for 10 battleships (including the four already completed or under construction), a dozen new-model armored cruisers (an improved version of the “pocket battleships”), four aircraft carriers, five heavy cruisers, 22 light cruisers (including the six already in service), 22 scout cruisers, 68 destroyers plus smaller craft.

Plan Z’s total figures would be subject to continual tinkering: for example, three of the armored cruisers were soon replaced by full-fledged battle cruisers. Various sources therefore list various totals of ships, but since they represented imaginary target figures, the exact count is not particularly important. What is clear is that Raeder wanted a huge surface fleet, and for about eight months Hitler allowed him the resources to build it, until the outbreak of a general European war in September 1939 brought the plans to an abrupt halt.

A true bureaucratic warrior, Raeder made the most of his brief months sitting atop the Third Reich’s budgetary pyramid. While Germany could potentially build 10 dreadnoughts at once during the heyday of Tirpitz’s regime, the Germany of 1939 had only four slipways capable of building the big ships. Raeder immediately ordered construction to begin on two of his new battleships, with two more to start in the fall of 1939 and the last two in early 1940.

Orders were placed as well for the three new battle cruisers, but work could not begin until the slipways had been cleared by the launch of two of the new battleships (and work had been completed on an additional new slipway). Shipyards for the new armored cruisers were selected, but again none were actually in a position to start and some of them also needed to build new slipways to accommodate the work. But by placing the work, Raeder gained important political allies in case the project fell out of favor.

All of the heavy cruisers were already under construction when Plan Z received approval, with the first nearing completion. Likewise two of the aircraft carriers had already been laid down, with the naval engineers recommending that the next two await completion of the first so that any lessons learned could be incorporated into their design.

Two of the new light cruisers had started construction in 1938, and Raeder now assigned four more to shipyards. Design work for a large ocean-going destroyer classed as a “scout cruiser” had been prepared in 1938, but no orders were placed for this ship.

By early 1940, all of the orders had been cancelled and what little work had been done on those ships laid down was dismantled. The workers and materials were soon shifted to new programs, chiefly submarine construction.

[stevep]

Good summary Lordroel. Germany lacked the resources and specialised industry for such a large programme, at least without it taking a very long time, by which Britain especially would have constructed a lot more. Coupled with the fact it was primarily a land power so the army and air force would always monopolise resources.

[lordroel]

Apr 21, 2018 10:07:34 GMT stevep said:

Good summary Lordroel. Germany lacked the resources and specialised industry for such a large programme, at least without it taking a very long time, by which Britain especially would have constructed a lot more. Coupled with the fact it was primarily a land power so the army and air force would always monopolise resources.

I did not write it stevep but it sums up how unlikely Plan Z was to ever to become a reality and only a dream to some.

[steffen]

Apr 21, 2018 10:17:04 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 21, 2018 10:07:34 GMT stevep said:

Good summary Lordroel. Germany lacked the resources and specialised industry for such a large programme, at least without it taking a very long time, by which Britain especially would have constructed a lot more. Coupled with the fact it was primarily a land power so the army and air force would always monopolise resources.

I did not write it stevep but it sums up how unlikely Plan Z was to ever to become a reality and only a dream to some.

The Z-plan was a death child, born out of the mad mind of some outdated planners, ignoring completly the priorities of the german reich in 1939.

Could they have build these ships? Sure, why not. But to do so they need to enlarge their ship-building infrastructure, need to concentrate 90% of its military spending (that was unhealthy and could not kept without war) for this.


But the germans build nearly so many ships - or more - in war time. With less priorities... so doable it is, but not in OTL. 

For such plan you need the CP win the 1. Worldwar and this with significant use of the heavy ships. Then you get the continous financing of the navy... so around 1940 they would plan such building program. 

But the military spending of that germany would be - in percentage - not big, because that germany would have had twice or tripple the economic power the nazis had in the same time.

Also they would build ships that work, would have ressources - from their allies like the osmans - and bases around the world. Complete different fish to fry. 

it was typical for the oldstyle-navy-officers, they demanded such ressources (for the Z-plan) to wage war against the british, knowing that the actual navy was way to weak to fight the british one. They were forced by the nazis to fight with the ships they had, basically training destroyers (who were nearly useless because of lack of knowledge to build "right" destroyers), useless light cruisers (again, lacking ressources, the newest got lost early) and overbuild CA, who were "needed" to beat other nations competitors... 

if you want a true navy, you build single ships, optimize em and - after you have bugged out the design, start to build numbers.
The nazis had a fight between the branches - who get the best soldiers, more money, fuel, material... it was a huge mess.

[jasonsnow]

Apr 21, 2018 10:48:32 GMT steffen said:

Apr 21, 2018 10:17:04 GMT lordroel said:

I did not write it stevep but it sums up how unlikely Plan Z was to ever to become a reality and only a dream to some.

The Z-plan was a death child, born out of the mad mind of some outdated planners, ignoring completly the priorities of the german reich in 1939.

Could they have build these ships? Sure, why not. But to do so they need to enlarge their ship-building infrastructure, need to concentrate 90% of its military spending (that was unhealthy and could not kept without war) for this.


But the germans build nearly so many ships - or more - in war time. With less priorities... so doable it is, but not in OTL. 

For such plan you need the CP win the 1. Worldwar and this with significant use of the heavy ships. Then you get the continous financing of the navy... so around 1940 they would plan such building program. 

But the military spending of that germany would be - in percentage - not big, because that germany would have had twice or tripple the economic power the nazis had in the same time.

Also they would build ships that work, would have ressources - from their allies like the osmans - and bases around the world. Complete different fish to fry. 

it was typical for the oldstyle-navy-officers, they demanded such ressources (for the Z-plan) to wage war against the british, knowing that the actual navy was way to weak to fight the british one. They were forced by the nazis to fight with the ships they had, basically training destroyers (who were nearly useless because of lack of knowledge to build "right" destroyers), useless light cruisers (again, lacking ressources, the newest got lost early) and overbuild CA, who were "needed" to beat other nations competitors... 

if you want a true navy, you build single ships, optimize em and - after you have bugged out the design, start to build numbers.
The nazis had a fight between the branches - who get the best soldiers, more money, fuel, material... it was a huge mess.

The Z-Plan is an undisputed mess, but I really believe proper naval strength is the key for a successful Third Reich. What could Hitler do differently?

[lordroel]

Apr 21, 2018 15:04:00 GMT jasonsnow said:

Apr 21, 2018 10:48:32 GMT steffen said:

The Z-plan was a death child, born out of the mad mind of some outdated planners, ignoring completly the priorities of the german reich in 1939.

Could they have build these ships? Sure, why not. But to do so they need to enlarge their ship-building infrastructure, need to concentrate 90% of its military spending (that was unhealthy and could not kept without war) for this.


But the germans build nearly so many ships - or more - in war time. With less priorities... so doable it is, but not in OTL. 

For such plan you need the CP win the 1. Worldwar and this with significant use of the heavy ships. Then you get the continous financing of the navy... so around 1940 they would plan such building program. 

But the military spending of that germany would be - in percentage - not big, because that germany would have had twice or tripple the economic power the nazis had in the same time.

Also they would build ships that work, would have ressources - from their allies like the osmans - and bases around the world. Complete different fish to fry. 

it was typical for the oldstyle-navy-officers, they demanded such ressources (for the Z-plan) to wage war against the british, knowing that the actual navy was way to weak to fight the british one. They were forced by the nazis to fight with the ships they had, basically training destroyers (who were nearly useless because of lack of knowledge to build "right" destroyers), useless light cruisers (again, lacking ressources, the newest got lost early) and overbuild CA, who were "needed" to beat other nations competitors... 

if you want a true navy, you build single ships, optimize em and - after you have bugged out the design, start to build numbers.
The nazis had a fight between the branches - who get the best soldiers, more money, fuel, material... it was a huge mess.

The Z-Plan is an undisputed mess, but I really believe proper naval strength is the key for a successful Third Reich. What could Hitler do differently?

Build submarines and a lot of them before the war and nothing bigger than a cruiser as surface ship.