Netherlands ISOT back to 1621

[eurowatch]

May 23, 2018 13:37:56 GMT lordroel said:

May 22, 2018 13:39:34 GMT eurowatch said:

THt yould be an interesting story, full of "much better than OTL"-events... i think the dutch society of 2018 is one of the most liberal in the world, perfectly suited to build up a "better place then OTL". 

Starving People is not going to be a problem, the Netherlands is the world second largest exporter of foodstufs, behind only the United States. If anything it the agicultural sector is going to have the opposite problem, the market is now so saturated that many farmers are going to og out of busnisses.
I wonder, the prices of 2018 what we find normal must be for 1621 standers be huge.

Definitly, due to inflation in prices ten Euros or pounds would be considered a months pay to someone in 1621. In a twist they would find it wierd why we attach so much value to brass coins and pieces of paper.

[lordroel]

May 23, 2018 13:51:16 GMT eurowatch said:

May 23, 2018 13:37:56 GMT lordroel said:

Starving People is not going to be a problem, the Netherlands is the world second largest exporter of foodstufs, behind only the United States. If anything it the agicultural sector is going to have the opposite problem, the market is now so saturated that many farmers are going to og out of busnisses.
I wonder, the prices of 2018 what we find normal must be for 1621 standers be huge.

Definitly, due to inflation in prices ten Euros or pounds would be considered a months pay to someone in 1621. In a twist they would find it wierd why we attach so much value to brass coins and pieces of paper.

A moth pay, for some it would be a years pay.

[steffen]

Hi,

prices - you can´t compare the 1621er-system with the modern EURO...

you get some stuff but it is worth BILLIONS... think about a computer and a diesel-generator, in the modern netherlands it is maybe 2000 EUR, for say russia it is worth 10.000sqkm or 60.000sqkm of the best ground, some lordship... what ever.

The modern dutch would be superior to anybody else...they would get money internal from the modern state, but it would exist exchange ratios... say 1 EURO = 10 Gulden or 10 Silbermark. 

Modern crops would be much more effective as the old stuff, but how they react to "old" infects... puh.. don´t know.

As i wrote - the key elements of this situation would be:

a.) spread of religious tolerance
b.) spread of sexual tolerance
c.) spread of "modern" sanitary elements - rebuild old cities to a standard that avoid worst infections
d.) spread of equality of men and woman (! propably most important)
e.) spread of democracy

The netherlands could easily dominate the world - also they could/would keep the enviroment "healthy".
With their military dominance they could crush any resistance on a greater level - propably they need to get rid of ALL religious leaders - basically shoot on sight em, because they are lost causes. 

[lordroel]

May 25, 2018 9:48:58 GMT steffen said:

Hi,

propably they need to get rid of ALL religious leaders - basically shoot on sight em, because they are lost causes. 

I doubt 2018 Netherlands is in the business of scooting any religious leader who lives in 1621.

[stevep]

May 25, 2018 11:34:15 GMT lordroel said:

May 25, 2018 9:48:58 GMT steffen said:

Hi,

propably they need to get rid of ALL religious leaders - basically shoot on sight em, because they are lost causes. 

I doubt 2018 Netherlands is in the business of scooting any religious leader who lives in 1621.

  Agree.  Even if some hothead is preaching damnation on the Netherlands and a crusade - not sure what the Protestant equivalent would be -  I doubt they would consider political decapitaltion of their opponents.  Apart from the fact its likely to make matters worse it opens up a can of worms that's best left shut. 

  Much better defending the borders, with shattering defeats for any attackers, possibly some punitive raids and then perhaps an invasion of local persistent trouble makers to remove them and imprison them, using due process of Dutch law - although that could be fun with modern lawyers!  The latter might also be done, possibly with better results overall by encouraging rivals to replace manifestly disastrous leaders.  [Since anyone who has got the bulk of their armed forces slaughtered and their maritime trade destroyed is likely to be less than popular with at least some internal elements. ]

[steffen]

May 25, 2018 11:34:15 GMT lordroel said:

May 25, 2018 9:48:58 GMT steffen said:

Hi,

propably they need to get rid of ALL religious leaders - basically shoot on sight em, because they are lost causes. 

I doubt 2018 Netherlands is in the business of scooting any religious leader who lives in 1621.

Hi,

propably not.
But with modern Netherlands been "lost" in a world of barbarians (burning witches, torturing people to death - in a way ISIS would be shocked of), couldn´t they not act hard but just to remove obstacles to a true peacefull world?

It is difficulty, it is nasty dirt work. But if you kill say 500-100 leading religious elements of 1621 (you could do it with poison, no need to hung them) so they are desorientated and weak, wouldn´t that be a "good" way to a democratic, liberal and open minded society? 

The time travelers KNOW that these are lost causes... you can´t teach em to get down. They will pray for "killing all invaders", because a modern dutch of 2018 who fell into their hands will be tortured and later burned alive. 
Modern netherlands NEED expansion, to keep its level of energy and to influence the others.

My idea of this is - give the commoners the chance to get educated and less religious, get the woman rights, get the blacks rights (there should exist some negro-slaves in europe) and give it time. But if you have ALL religious leaders (of the large religions) outside the controlled sphere preparing to kill you and everybody who is supporting you - you need countermethods.

If you kill 500-1000 of them you keep em weak for 20 years. Every time some new "leader" get influence, kill him again.
In the same time influence the people in the areas around you (basically france, modern german areas, later modern poland, scandinavia, UK, italy, spain (these two could be hard)), and you can let the education do the rest for you. 

But in the first 20-30 years you are surrounded by "mad creatures", "half wild animals", who will see a tractor as "hells send". You can teach the people, but NOT with their religious leaders tellinig them the opposite. So you NEED the dirt work done. 
The nice way is to catch and imprison them - i think the dutch would try this first. But my opinion about these fanatics is, this would not help. So don´t waste ressources but kill em. It is more efficent and reduce the losses of modern dutch and their supporters in the "old" world. 

They would not do it from day 1, but after a town or two get slaughtered to the last man, woman, kid by the "religious" ones, the netherlands will act the "right" way. 

Only defending the own borders is not enough. Your "existence" is basically an insult of god (both sides)... 

To keep the routes to ressources safe and open you need to "remove" these leaders and educate the people. 

I think you will win, because modern hygiena, medicine, technology will beat old habbits. But slowly.
So basially from 1621-1631 you need some military engagements and these "religious" killiings. After that you remove 10-20 of these each year.. .so the public opinion about "the dutch" will be no longer hostile. 
That is enough to spread your true and good stuff.


As i wrote, with only 450-500 million people you could build up world wide a true civil civilisation, democratic, equal and without the nasty crimes of history between them and now.

[steffen]

May 25, 2018 11:42:52 GMT stevep said:

May 25, 2018 11:34:15 GMT lordroel said:

I doubt 2018 Netherlands is in the business of scooting any religious leader who lives in 1621.

  Agree.  Even if some hothead is preaching damnation on the Netherlands and a crusade - not sure what the Protestant equivalent would be -  I doubt they would consider political decapitaltion of their opponents.  Apart from the fact its likely to make matters worse it opens up a can of worms that's best left shut. 

  Much better defending the borders, with shattering defeats for any attackers, possibly some punitive raids and then perhaps an invasion of local persistent trouble makers to remove them and imprison them, using due process of Dutch law - although that could be fun with modern lawyers!  The latter might also be done, possibly with better results overall by encouraging rivals to replace manifestly disastrous leaders.  [Since anyone who has got the bulk of their armed forces slaughtered and their maritime trade destroyed is likely to be less than popular with at least some internal elements. ]

The problem is NOT the lords and kings... if you threaten them they will "obey"... the problem are the religious leaders spreading the "dutch ar witches and need to be burned"-attitude of BOTH religious parties in europe. You can´t beat that with military force.

Also - the dutch need LOTS of ressources and most important energy. 
They need a new fleet of large ships, able to replace modern ports.
They need stuff to keep their existing materials running
So they need coal, iron ore, oil, gas, uran (nuclear power could be interesting)
For that they need to establish safe areas full of people who want to get the same level of modern stuff... "followers".

So you have to remove the power of lords and kings, change the society for democracy and give woman equal rights.
To do that you HAVE to remove religious influence. This is more important as any king or lord. So kill the leaders who act against the "new message"

You also ignore the brutality of that time. If a border village change to the "dutch idea" and the neighbours, heated by religious elements kill everyone in that villiage the modern people will recognize that their humanity needs some dose of reality. 
No - the dutch will not turn into murdering bastards... they will keep enemies humane, treat em and don´t kill on sight. 
But they need to remove the religious leaders... imprison them is one possibility... killing is cheaper. Esp. if you kill them with poison so they do not know WHO is guilty... to keep the enemies instable and weak is important.

[eurowatch]

I wrote somethings about how I think the situation would develop. What do you guys think?

1621 was mostly defined by the trip back in time. The years afterwards however were defined by large amounts of social upheaval. When the Dutch arrived in the Austrian Netherlands they did not only take with them new technology, they also took with them new ideas. And none interested the average person more then the idea of social mobility.
The idea that the average man could make make big money on the stock market and use that to either build a factory on the countryside or start a new life in one of the colonies appealed to everyone and was heavily promoted by the government. Factories, mines and ironworks popped up across Belgium like mushrooms after a storm, producing equipment and taking in thousands of uneducated workers.
For the educated, there were other alternatives. Foreign nobles were willing to pay hand over fist if it ensured that their heir would grow up to be healthy and get the best education possible. Dutch nurses and teachers showed up with such regularity in courts all across Europe that The Hague had to step in and convince the rest to stay at home, lest the already burdened education and healthcare system completely collapsed.
Not all were happy with the development though. The Netherlands produces enough food to feed more then three hundred million people, three times the total population of Europe in 1621. With the market so saturated prices dropped like rocks and many farmers suddenly found themselves out of a job. The labour union took their grievances to the minister of agriculture who arranged to send them to the colonies. Fledging colonies always needed more farmers.
The colonies would become an ongoing issue. While the Netherlands were supposedly against setting up colonies, by 1632 the industrial centre in Venezuela (called New Andalusia by the locals) and its refineries were an important cornerstone of the Dutch expansion plans due to the sheer amount of raw materials it produced. And the government had to admit that sending all those German and Syrian refugees to North America was a very convenient way to permanently get rid of them.


Many industries would take advantage of the new circumstances and the military was one of them. With a sudden demand for troops to garrison the newly acquired areas and a war going on right outside their border, conscription was introduced to everyone not involved in the rebuilding effort to the military industry. Recruitment numbers were especially high among the 1621 population, many who saw soldiery as something familiar and were eager to serve their country.
To spare them the horrors of modern war, keep the Southerners from feeling to uncomfortable and potentially deserting they tended to be employed as garrison troops in Belgium.
The remainders were sorted into the newly created infantry regiment Prinsess Beatrix, infantry regiment Fredrik Hendrik and the recreated regiment Huzaren Prins Alexander.
The equipment the KL fielded tended to vary wildly. The newly recreated infantry regiment Chassé (composed of uptimers) was given preference when it came to modern equipment and weaponry. The remainders of the recruits were equipped with whatever was available (primary Lee-Enfield rifles) or could be produced on short notice.
In 1624, the Dutch Army got to show of its muscles when an army of former mercenaries raided Drenthe in search of the rumoured riches they had heard about. Those riches were found but along with those they found the 45th mechanised brigade to repel them. To call the result a battle would have been generous, the raiders lacked cohesion and an overall strategy, they would have been an easy opponent to even a 1624-era army. When their initial charge was repelled by a hail of machine gun fire the raiders quickly routed and ran, only to be attacked in the rear by Fenneks. To the raiders surprise they were not executed but instead put to work as forced labour to repair the damage they had caused, the Netherlands didn't do death penalties.
More important then the fate of the raiders was that sabre-rattling politicians now had an excuse to enter the Thirty-years war. The 13th Light Brigade crossed the border into the prince-bishoperic of Münster and captured the city of Münster after a short siege. After establishing the principality of Munster as a dependency of the Dutch crown, engineers went to work constructing roads and barracks for the garrisoning troops.
The whole operation was meant as a warning. Every power with troops in the HRE instead took it as an insult. How dare those heretics conquer ground held by proper, God-loving Christians?
With the every army in the country attacking them, the Netherlands were forced to expand their presence in the HRE. Dutch troops were expanded to nine regiments and sent north, south and east respectively to fight their enemies. The most difficulties they faced were not enemy soldiers, but logistics. With the only production of diesel and ammunition in the world being in the Netherlands, supplying their advancing forces became more difficult the farther away they got, especially with the relative poor state of the local infrastructure. The construction and maintenance of an ever-expanding road and rail network plus the demands of an active army required all of the Dutch industrial capacity. It was not uncommon for entire regiments to have to wait for weeks while the road network caught up to the latest conquered city.
To avoid losing the initiative the Dutch employed cavalry in large scale. While primary intended as scouts and skirmishers, some offensive-minded officers left the trucks behind altogether and went full horsepower. The 9th hussar regiment famously loaded everything it needed on to horse carts, put its troops in the saddle and set off with the words “see you at the Polish border” to the engineers. They were reunited with the rest of the front eight months later, by which point they had defeated fifteen different armies and conquered far more fortresses and cities then any other Dutch unit. In recognition of their accomplishments the entire regiment was awarded the Militaire Willems-Orde.
By the end of 1626 The Hague was able to arrange a peace treaty that granted them control over the parts of the Holy Roman Empire they had conquered, which covered almost all of what would later become Germany plus some pieces of France. It was not a treaty everyone liked (the Dutch government was not happy about having to govern all that area they had gained) but it was a treaty they had to accept. A separate treaty, the Treaty of Westphalia, was signed shortly afterwards. It stipulated the idea of Ciuo regio, eius religio (his realm, his religion) and the modern idea of national sovereignty. It no longer made a difference what the pope said, a ruler no longer needed to listen to him. This treaty was something the rest of Europe was far more interested in. Many kings and princes were tired from the pope constantly interfering in their affairs.

[lordroel]

May 27, 2018 14:03:08 GMT eurowatch said:

I wrote somethings about how I think the situation would develop. What do you guys think?

1621 was mostly defined by the trip back in time. The years afterwards however were defined by large amounts of social upheaval. When the Dutch arrived in the Austrian Netherlands they did not only take with them new technology, they also took with them new ideas. And none interested the average person more then the idea of social mobility.
The idea that the average man could make make big money on the stock market and use that to either build a factory on the countryside or start a new life in one of the colonies appealed to everyone and was heavily promoted by the government. Factories, mines and ironworks popped up across Belgium like mushrooms after a storm, producing equipment and taking in thousands of uneducated workers.
For the educated, there were other alternatives. Foreign nobles were willing to pay hand over fist if it ensured that their heir would grow up to be healthy and get the best education possible. Dutch nurses and teachers showed up with such regularity in courts all across Europe that The Hague had to step in and convince the rest to stay at home, lest the already burdened education and healthcare system completely collapsed.
Not all were happy with the development though. The Netherlands produces enough food to feed more then three hundred million people, three times the total population of Europe in 1621. With the market so saturated prices dropped like rocks and many farmers suddenly found themselves out of a job. The labour union took their grievances to the minister of agriculture who arranged to send them to the colonies. Fledging colonies always needed more farmers.
The colonies would become an ongoing issue. While the Netherlands were supposedly against setting up colonies, by 1632 the industrial centre in Venezuela (called New Andalusia by the locals) and its refineries were an important cornerstone of the Dutch expansion plans due to the sheer amount of raw materials it produced. And the government had to admit that sending all those German and Syrian refugees to North America was a very convenient way to permanently get rid of them.


Many industries would take advantage of the new circumstances and the military was one of them. With a sudden demand for troops to garrison the newly acquired areas and a war going on right outside their border, conscription was introduced to everyone not involved in the rebuilding effort to the military industry. Recruitment numbers were especially high among the 1621 population, many who saw soldiery as something familiar and were eager to serve their country.
To spare them the horrors of modern war, keep the Southerners from feeling to uncomfortable and potentially deserting they tended to be employed as garrison troops in Belgium.
The remainders were sorted into the newly created infantry regiment Prinsess Beatrix, infantry regiment Fredrik Hendrik and the recreated regiment Huzaren Prins Alexander.
The equipment the KL fielded tended to vary wildly. The newly recreated infantry regiment Chassé (composed of uptimers) was given preference when it came to modern equipment and weaponry. The remainders of the recruits were equipped with whatever was available (primary Lee-Enfield rifles) or could be produced on short notice.
In 1624, the Dutch Army got to show of its muscles when an army of former mercenaries raided Drenthe in search of the rumoured riches they had heard about. Those riches were found but along with those they found the 45th mechanised brigade to repel them. To call the result a battle would have been generous, the raiders lacked cohesion and an overall strategy, they would have been an easy opponent to even a 1624-era army. When their initial charge was repelled by a hail of machine gun fire the raiders quickly routed and ran, only to be attacked in the rear by Fenneks. To the raiders surprise they were not executed but instead put to work as forced labour to repair the damage they had caused, the Netherlands didn't do death penalties.
More important then the fate of the raiders was that sabre-rattling politicians now had an excuse to enter the Thirty-years war. The 13th Light Brigade crossed the border into the prince-bishoperic of Münster and captured the city of Münster after a short siege. After establishing the principality of Munster as a dependency of the Dutch crown, engineers went to work constructing roads and barracks for the garrisoning troops.
The whole operation was meant as a warning. Every power with troops in the HRE instead took it as an insult. How dare those heretics conquer ground held by proper, God-loving Christians?
With the every army in the country attacking them, the Netherlands were forced to expand their presence in the HRE. Dutch troops were expanded to nine regiments and sent north, south and east respectively to fight their enemies. The most difficulties they faced were not enemy soldiers, but logistics. With the only production of diesel and ammunition in the world being in the Netherlands, supplying their advancing forces became more difficult the farther away they got, especially with the relative poor state of the local infrastructure. The construction and maintenance of an ever-expanding road and rail network plus the demands of an active army required all of the Dutch industrial capacity. It was not uncommon for entire regiments to have to wait for weeks while the road network caught up to the latest conquered city.
To avoid losing the initiative the Dutch employed cavalry in large scale. While primary intended as scouts and skirmishers, some offensive-minded officers left the trucks behind altogether and went full horsepower. The 9th hussar regiment famously loaded everything it needed on to horse carts, put its troops in the saddle and set off with the words “see you at the Polish border” to the engineers. They were reunited with the rest of the front eight months later, by which point they had defeated fifteen different armies and conquered far more fortresses and cities then any other Dutch unit. In recognition of their accomplishments the entire regiment was awarded the Militaire Willems-Orde.
By the end of 1626 The Hague was able to arrange a peace treaty that granted them control over the parts of the Holy Roman Empire they had conquered, which covered almost all of what would later become Germany plus some pieces of France. It was not a treaty everyone liked (the Dutch government was not happy about having to govern all that area they had gained) but it was a treaty they had to accept. A separate treaty, the Treaty of Westphalia, was signed shortly afterwards. It stipulated the idea of Ciuo regio, eius religio (his realm, his religion) and the modern idea of national sovereignty. It no longer made a difference what the pope said, a ruler no longer needed to listen to him. This treaty was something the rest of Europe was far more interested in. Many kings and princes were tired from the pope constantly interfering in their affairs.

Looks nice so far, nice work.

[eurowatch]

May 28, 2018 15:38:55 GMT lordroel said:

May 27, 2018 14:03:08 GMT eurowatch said:

I wrote somethings about how I think the situation would develop. What do you guys think?

1621 was mostly defined by the trip back in time. The years afterwards however were defined by large amounts of social upheaval. When the Dutch arrived in the Austrian Netherlands they did not only take with them new technology, they also took with them new ideas. And none interested the average person more then the idea of social mobility.
The idea that the average man could make make big money on the stock market and use that to either build a factory on the countryside or start a new life in one of the colonies appealed to everyone and was heavily promoted by the government. Factories, mines and ironworks popped up across Belgium like mushrooms after a storm, producing equipment and taking in thousands of uneducated workers.
For the educated, there were other alternatives. Foreign nobles were willing to pay hand over fist if it ensured that their heir would grow up to be healthy and get the best education possible. Dutch nurses and teachers showed up with such regularity in courts all across Europe that The Hague had to step in and convince the rest to stay at home, lest the already burdened education and healthcare system completely collapsed.
Not all were happy with the development though. The Netherlands produces enough food to feed more then three hundred million people, three times the total population of Europe in 1621. With the market so saturated prices dropped like rocks and many farmers suddenly found themselves out of a job. The labour union took their grievances to the minister of agriculture who arranged to send them to the colonies. Fledging colonies always needed more farmers.
The colonies would become an ongoing issue. While the Netherlands were supposedly against setting up colonies, by 1632 the industrial centre in Venezuela (called New Andalusia by the locals) and its refineries were an important cornerstone of the Dutch expansion plans due to the sheer amount of raw materials it produced. And the government had to admit that sending all those German and Syrian refugees to North America was a very convenient way to permanently get rid of them.


Many industries would take advantage of the new circumstances and the military was one of them. With a sudden demand for troops to garrison the newly acquired areas and a war going on right outside their border, conscription was introduced to everyone not involved in the rebuilding effort to the military industry. Recruitment numbers were especially high among the 1621 population, many who saw soldiery as something familiar and were eager to serve their country.
To spare them the horrors of modern war, keep the Southerners from feeling to uncomfortable and potentially deserting they tended to be employed as garrison troops in Belgium.
The remainders were sorted into the newly created infantry regiment Prinsess Beatrix, infantry regiment Fredrik Hendrik and the recreated regiment Huzaren Prins Alexander.
The equipment the KL fielded tended to vary wildly. The newly recreated infantry regiment Chassé (composed of uptimers) was given preference when it came to modern equipment and weaponry. The remainders of the recruits were equipped with whatever was available (primary Lee-Enfield rifles) or could be produced on short notice.
In 1624, the Dutch Army got to show of its muscles when an army of former mercenaries raided Drenthe in search of the rumoured riches they had heard about. Those riches were found but along with those they found the 45th mechanised brigade to repel them. To call the result a battle would have been generous, the raiders lacked cohesion and an overall strategy, they would have been an easy opponent to even a 1624-era army. When their initial charge was repelled by a hail of machine gun fire the raiders quickly routed and ran, only to be attacked in the rear by Fenneks. To the raiders surprise they were not executed but instead put to work as forced labour to repair the damage they had caused, the Netherlands didn't do death penalties.
More important then the fate of the raiders was that sabre-rattling politicians now had an excuse to enter the Thirty-years war. The 13th Light Brigade crossed the border into the prince-bishoperic of Münster and captured the city of Münster after a short siege. After establishing the principality of Munster as a dependency of the Dutch crown, engineers went to work constructing roads and barracks for the garrisoning troops.
The whole operation was meant as a warning. Every power with troops in the HRE instead took it as an insult. How dare those heretics conquer ground held by proper, God-loving Christians?
With the every army in the country attacking them, the Netherlands were forced to expand their presence in the HRE. Dutch troops were expanded to nine regiments and sent north, south and east respectively to fight their enemies. The most difficulties they faced were not enemy soldiers, but logistics. With the only production of diesel and ammunition in the world being in the Netherlands, supplying their advancing forces became more difficult the farther away they got, especially with the relative poor state of the local infrastructure. The construction and maintenance of an ever-expanding road and rail network plus the demands of an active army required all of the Dutch industrial capacity. It was not uncommon for entire regiments to have to wait for weeks while the road network caught up to the latest conquered city.
To avoid losing the initiative the Dutch employed cavalry in large scale. While primary intended as scouts and skirmishers, some offensive-minded officers left the trucks behind altogether and went full horsepower. The 9th hussar regiment famously loaded everything it needed on to horse carts, put its troops in the saddle and set off with the words “see you at the Polish border” to the engineers. They were reunited with the rest of the front eight months later, by which point they had defeated fifteen different armies and conquered far more fortresses and cities then any other Dutch unit. In recognition of their accomplishments the entire regiment was awarded the Militaire Willems-Orde.
By the end of 1626 The Hague was able to arrange a peace treaty that granted them control over the parts of the Holy Roman Empire they had conquered, which covered almost all of what would later become Germany plus some pieces of France. It was not a treaty everyone liked (the Dutch government was not happy about having to govern all that area they had gained) but it was a treaty they had to accept. A separate treaty, the Treaty of Westphalia, was signed shortly afterwards. It stipulated the idea of Ciuo regio, eius religio (his realm, his religion) and the modern idea of national sovereignty. It no longer made a difference what the pope said, a ruler no longer needed to listen to him. This treaty was something the rest of Europe was far more interested in. Many kings and princes were tired from the pope constantly interfering in their affairs.

Looks nice so far, nice work.

Thank you. I just don't really know where I should go from here. Maybe a brief peice on how the Netherlands are going to influence Gustav II Adolf?

[lordroel]

May 28, 2018 15:59:12 GMT eurowatch said:

May 28, 2018 15:38:55 GMT lordroel said:

Looks nice so far, nice work.

Thank you. I just don't really know where I should go from here. Maybe a brief peice on how the Netherlands are going to influence Gustav II Adolf?

What about Maurice, Prince of Orange, what is his future going to be.

[eurowatch]

May 28, 2018 18:19:24 GMT lordroel said:

May 28, 2018 15:59:12 GMT eurowatch said:

Thank you. I just don't really know where I should go from here. Maybe a brief peice on how the Netherlands are going to influence Gustav II Adolf?

What about Maurice, Prince of Orange, what is his future going to be.

I assume he would live in the Palace of Nassau (after the Spaniards have been kicked out of course) for the rest of his life and work to improve the livelyhood of the Southern Netherlands. 

[lordroel]

May 28, 2018 20:32:29 GMT eurowatch said:

May 28, 2018 18:19:24 GMT lordroel said:

What about Maurice, Prince of Orange, what is his future going to be.

live in the Palace of Nassau

You mean what is called Coudenberg

[eurowatch]

May 29, 2018 3:19:42 GMT lordroel said:

May 28, 2018 20:32:29 GMT eurowatch said:

live in the Palace of Nassau

You mean what is called Coudenberg

I meant this palace but I can't find the page on the English wiki.

[lordroel]

May 29, 2018 15:58:32 GMT eurowatch said:

May 29, 2018 3:19:42 GMT lordroel said:

You mean what is called Coudenberg

I meant this palace but I can't find the page on the English wiki.

You mean this one, King Willem-Alexander will be slightly jealous that, lets give Maurice, Prince of Orange the tittle of Count of Vlaanderen (it is located in Spanish Netherlands and i doubt the Belgian embassy of 2018 in the Netherlands will mind), also he will be allowed to keep all other tittles expect those who are located in 2018 Netherlands, who conflict with the tittles held by the current royal house of Orange and those that we mange to aquare across Europe.