World War II in real time

[stevep]

Nov 6, 2018 15:33:20 GMT lordroel said:

Nov 6, 2018 11:17:59 GMT stevep said:

  Lordroel

    Thanks for that.  Feeling rather rough yesterday as I've been engaged in combat with a bug and went back to my voluntary work only for it to make a comeback so wasn't that eager to dig anything up.  Why I didn't do my normal late pass through the site again before I turned in.

  Actually checking John Ellis's WWII Databook - call me old-fashioned - the Ju88 made up about 50% of the entire bomber force produced by the Germans in WWII with ~14,600 produced and nearly 6,000 of them were actually fighter bombers, which makes up the difference in our numbers. 

  Steve

Well if your book says that a total of 14,000 where produced i believe you, but if the Oslo Reports was true, then more J88s would have been produced per month than the American B-17 and the British Avro Lancaster, and 5,000 J88s in 1940 could have a serious impact had they been around during the Battle of Britian.

U.S. Bomber Production Numbers in World War II

British Production of Aircraft By Year During The Second World War

  Lordroel

  Don't forget two points.

a)  That the B-17 and Lancaster were 4 engined strategic heavy bombers, which consume much more resources to build and support than something like the Ju88.

b)  We're talking about production during the entire war and for the Ju88, including those ~6000 night fighters, which obviously weren't produced until Germany was being heavily hit by Bomber Command the vast majority of those a/c were in the latter period of the war.  For the BoB there's a table which gives figures for strength on both sides at points from July 6th to 28th Sept. 

Week Ending	RAF Fighters	Luff SE Fighters	Luff 2E Fighters	Dive bombers	Bombers
6-7-40	644	760	220	280	1200
20-7-40	658	656	168	248	769
10-8-40	749	805	224	261	998
7-9-40	746	623	129	180	772
28-9-40	732	276	230	343	750

  Note the following points are mentioned.

a)    The RAF fighters are for SE [single engined] fighters in service with substantial numbers of others being mentioned as being in storage.  This is probably largely because I think the primarily problem for the RAF at that point was pilots rather than a/c.

b)     The Luftwaffe figures are for Luftflotta 2 & 3 only, which I think were those attacking from N France and excluded the limited attacks from Norway or units elsewhere.

c)     It also mentions that the 6-7-40 only are actual [theoretical?] strength and only about 50% were in service.  Which might account for the big drop in bombers in the two July dates and a lot of the variability in following dates.

  Basically always got to consider what measures are actually in use and that your not comparing apples and oranges.  However does look like the main Luftwaffe bombers involved in the battle, which included other types were only ~1200 at their maximum.

  Steve

[lordroel]

Nov 7, 2018 10:24:27 GMT stevep said:

Nov 6, 2018 15:33:20 GMT lordroel said:

Well if your book says that a total of 14,000 where produced i believe you, but if the Oslo Reports was true, then more J88s would have been produced per month than the American B-17 and the British Avro Lancaster, and 5,000 J88s in 1940 could have a serious impact had they been around during the Battle of Britian.

U.S. Bomber Production Numbers in World War II

British Production of Aircraft By Year During The Second World War

  Lordroel

  Don't forget two points.

a)  That the B-17 and Lancaster were 4 engined strategic heavy bombers, which consume much more resources to build and support than something like the Ju88.

b)  We're talking about production during the entire war and for the Ju88, including those ~6000 night fighters, which obviously weren't produced until Germany was being heavily hit by Bomber Command the vast majority of those a/c were in the latter period of the war.  For the BoB there's a table which gives figures for strength on both sides at points from July 6th to 28th Sept. 

Week Ending	RAF Fighters	Luff SE Fighters	Luff 2E Fighters	Dive bombers	Bombers
6-7-40	644	760	220	280	1200
20-7-40	658	656	168	248	769
10-8-40	749	805	224	261	998
7-9-40	746	623	129	180	772
28-9-40	732	276	230	343	750

  Note the following points are mentioned.

a)    The RAF fighters are for SE [single engined] fighters in service with substantial numbers of others being mentioned as being in storage.  This is probably largely because I think the primarily problem for the RAF at that point was pilots rather than a/c.

b)     The Luftwaffe figures are for Luftflotta 2 & 3 only, which I think were those attacking from N France and excluded the limited attacks from Norway or units elsewhere.

c)     It also mentions that the 6-7-40 only are actual [theoretical?] strength and only about 50% were in service.  Which might account for the big drop in bombers in the two July dates and a lot of the variability in following dates.

  Basically always got to consider what measures are actually in use and that your not comparing apples and oranges.  However does look like the main Luftwaffe bombers involved in the battle, which included other types were only ~1200 at their maximum.

  Steve

Thanks for the data stevep.

[lordroel]

November 7th 1939

Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and Leopold III King of The Belgians make a joint offer to mediate in peace talks between the warring parties. Both the Allies and the Germans refuse this offer.

The joint statement is made after the Queen was told by the Dutch military attaché in Berlin, Gijsbertus Sas, that the Germans were very close to invading both The Netherlands and Belgium. Sas had heard this from a friend in high places, German Colonel Hans Oster, deputy to the commander of the Abwehr (the German military intelligence service).

Oster was an old-school German officer, who appreciated the Dutch for protecting the former German Kaiser Wilhelm II when he sought refuge in the Netherlands after The Great War. He was also opposed to Hitlers expansionist politics. Oster started passing information about an upcoming German invasion of the Low Countries to Sas in October 1939. When he told Sas about the invasion being planned for 12 November 1939, Wilhelmina and Leopold offered to mediate in peace talks as a last hope to offset this invasion.

Photo: Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands riding a bike in 1938.



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[lordroel]

November 8th 1939

A bomb explodes in the Bürgerbräukeller in Munich, shortly after Hitler held a speech in honour of the 16th anniversary of the Beer Hall Putsch. The assassination attempt was carefully planned and prepared by the German worker Georg Elser. If Hitler hadn’t held his speech half an hour earlier and an hour shorter than usual, he possibly would’ve been killed.

Elser started planning the bombing a year earlier, in November 1938. He began collecting explosives and detonating mechanisms at his job at an armament factory and later as a quarry worker. In August 1939, he moved to Munich where he locked himself in the Bürgerbräukeller every night to hollow a pillar behind the podium. He built the bomb during daytime and installed it in early November 1939.

On 8 November 1939, Hitler was supposed to deliver a speech on the Beer Hall Putsch at 20:30 PM. With the speech usually taking up to 90 minutes, Elser set his bomb to explode on 21:20 PM. Hitler almost cancelled the speech altogether because of the upcoming invasion of France, but decided to give a shorter speech after all. Due to a bad weather forecast, he planned to take his personal train back to Berlin, which departed at 21:30 PM. To make this work, he started with his speech at 20:00 PM. Hitler finished at 21:07 PM, after which he immediately left for the station.

The bomb explodes at 21:20 without Hitler and without the other senior Nazis in the room. However, many other people still are. 8 people are killed and many others are wounded. Meanwhile, Elser tries to flee to Switzerland, but he’s apprehended at the border. After interrogation by the Gestapo, he is sent to the Sachsenhausen concentration camp.

Photo: Bürgerbräukeller on 9 November 1939 after Elsers assassination attempt.



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[lordroel]

November 9th 1939

Supreme Allied Commander Maurice Gamelin proposed his Dyle Plan to a conference of Allied Commanders in Vincennes, Paris. Gamelin expected the Germans to advance through Belgium to avoid the French Maginot Line, similar to the Von Schlieffen Plan in 1914. In anticipation of a German assault through Belgium, Gamelin wanted to enter Belgium and set up a defensive line along the River Dyle.

This required the French troops to reach the Dyle River, located in the centre of Belgium and east of Brussels, earlier than the invading German troops. Not everyone in the Allied command was excited by this plan. The French risked to be trapped in the open fields of Flanders without defensive positions if the Germans reached the river earlier. Also, the plan would draw a fair amount of French reserves into Belgium, while they might be of better in a more central location.

On the other hand, the plan made sense to some extent. The French defensive line would be reasonably shorter than the entire Franco-Belgian border. Also, the Dyle River would form a suitable left front, the middle being defended by natural barriers such as the Meuse River and the Ardennes, and the right flank being defended by the Maginot line. Also, the plan would prevent the North of France, one of its key industrial zones, to become a war zone once again.

Photo: Maurice Gamelin in 1936.



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[stevep]

Nov 9, 2018 17:08:08 GMT lordroel said:

November 9th 1939

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp937v8nyqy

  Oops!

[lordroel]

Nov 9, 2018 19:09:13 GMT stevep said:

Nov 9, 2018 17:08:08 GMT lordroel said:

November 9th 1939

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp937v8nyqy

  Oops!

What do you mean with oops, is it about the post ore the day and the British-French plan.

[stevep]

Nov 9, 2018 19:40:41 GMT lordroel said:

Nov 9, 2018 19:09:13 GMT stevep said:

  Oops!

What do you mean with oops, is it about the post ore the day and the British-French plan.

  Well the plan.  It seemed logical at the time and might have worked reasonably well if the Germans had stuck to their initial plan but was totally wrong footed by the sickle cut through the Ardennes.

[lordroel]

November 10th 1939

1939, Adolf Hitler flies his new private airplane for the first time. The plane, called the Immelmann III, is an unarmed Focke-Wulf Fw 200a-O (S-9) transport airplane, personalized to the needs and desires of Adolf Hitler. Like his former personal airplane, the Immelmann II, the aircraft was named after the German World War One Ace Max Immelmann.

The pilot of this first flight is Hans Baur, Hitler’s personal pilot since the early 1930s. Hitler was able to sit in his own Fuehrersessel, his personal armchair, while travelling in the air. The new plane is a lot faster than Hitler’s former private airplane, the Immelmann II, a Junkers Ju 52/3m.

Photo: A FW 200 Condor. The depicted model is a different and later version of the FW 200 Condor than Hitler’s personal aircraft.

[lordroel]

November 11th 1939

German authorities in the city of Łódź, named Litzmannstadt ever since the annexation by the Germans, double down on Jews and Jewish institutions in the city. They burn down all the remaining synagogues, including the two greatest ones – the Reformed Synagogue and the Old Orthodox Synagogue on Wolborska Street.

On the same day, the Germans deport many Jewish citizens, including the members of the Jewish council of Łódź. This council was set up by the Germans in October, and consisted of 31 influential citizens of the Jewish community in Łódź.

At this time in the war, anti-Jewish actions in annexed territories in Poland were still, while barbaric, mostly sporadic. Long-term plans on how to deal with the Jewish and Polish population were being made and were to be incorporated in the following weeks.

Photo: Ezras Izrael Synagogue in Łódź in the 1910s. This synagogue was burned down on November 11th 1939.



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[lordroel]

November 12th 1939

Winston Churchill gives a radio broadcasted speech about the first ten weeks of the war. ‘We are far stronger then we were 10 weeks ago. We are far better prepared to endure the worst malice of Hitler and his hands than we were at the beginning of September,’ Churchill says.

‘It would be a good thing for me to tell you tonight how well the war has turned for the allies during the first 10 weeks, ’ he optimistically starts his speech. ‘We will persevere in making war until the other side has had enough of it.’ In his speech, Churchill is confident about the British ability to defend itself and its allies: ‘The superior quality of our air force has been proved, both in pilots and in machines, over the enemy.’ And he believed that the Soviet Union would provide security in the east: ‘Germany is barred of from the east, and has to conquer the British Empire and the French republic or perish in the attempt.’

Churchill goes on to talk about the German position on the current state of affairs. ‘General Goering says that we have been spared so far, because Nazi Germany is so humane. They cannot bear to do anything to hurt anybody. All they ask for is the right to live. And to be let alone to conquer and kill the weak.’

YouTube clip of Churchill September 12th 1939 address:



Photo: Bren carriers of the 13/18th Royal Hussars part of the British Expeditionary Force during an exercise near Vimy, 11 October 1939

[lordroel]

November 13th 1939

The First British Royal Navy destroyer is lost in the war. While escorting minelayer HMS Adventure on the Thames estuary, the destroyer HMS Blanche (H47) hits a magnetic sea mine. German destroyers had placed the mines there just the night before. One man dies and twelve others are wounded. The HMS Adventure also hits a mine and is badly damaged. 23 crewmembers are either killed or fatally injured.

Mines were already of great importance for German naval warfare strategies during the Great War, but had been further developed during the interwar years. Plans were made for big scale use in the early years of the war: ‘Some 1,500 magnetic mines were available in the early 1940 – far short of the 50,000 originally ordered.’

1939 and 1940 were two of the best years in terms of German mine warfare. The German air force and the German Kriegsmarine were very actively laying minefields off the British coastal areas. Besides, no counter-measures against the magnetic mine had yet been developed.

Over the years, the Germans had developed many different types of magnetic mines. They were fired by a change in the vertical field strength. Several mechanisms were used to prevent the mine from detonating too soon.

Photo: Minelayer HMS Adventure.



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[lordroel]

November 14th 1939

German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop informs Belgium and the Netherlands that their offer to mediate in peace talks is not desirable. The two nations, under the pressure of an expected upcoming invasion, reached out to the belligerent nations on 7 November 1939. France and Great Britain had already said that they didn’t feel any need for peace talks.

The French and British had rejected saying that the Germans should take a first initiative for peace. Von Ribbentrop declared that the French and British reaction ‘made peace impossible now’.

Phtoto: Joachim von Ribbentrop in 1938.



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[lordroel]

November 15th 1939

The Battle of South Guangxi starts. The Japanese invade the coast of Guangxi in an attempt to capture the Chinese city of Nanning. Because the Japanese now threatened Chinese communication and supply lines, the Chinese would have to launch a massive counterattack in Southern China to halt the Japanese invasion. The battle would go on for several months, and would become a major part of the planned winter offensive.

Photo: Heavily-loden Japanese soldiers are pictured while crossing a pontoon bridge in China. They wear M98 field service uniforms and carry bolt-action 6.5mm Ariska rifles.



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[lordroel]

November 16th 1939

French and British officials talk about the creation of a ‘United States of Europe’ in London. A day earlier the German ambassador in Ankara, Franz von Papen, gave an interview where he stated that ’it is Germany’s job to create the ‘United States of Europe.’

French Minister of Finance Paul Reynaud presented his plan for a ‘United States of Europe’ to British officials during a visit to Great Britain. These plans would overcome the European traditions of conflict and nationalism and create continental peace. The first step would be an economic union between the British and the French. Reynaud talked about a joint customs union, a shared currency. Economic cooperation will lead to peace, is the idea. Initially, the British are not as enthusiastic as the French Minister, but promise to think long and hard about it.

In regards to the idea of a United States of Europe, the German ambassador in Turkey, Franz von Papen, gave an interview on the 15th, in which he stated that ’Great Britain once had the opportunity to create a European commonwealth. The British failed to do so after the Great War. It is now Germany’s turn to try so.

Photo: Paul Reynaud in 1933.



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