The Templin Institute

[stevep]

Sept 7, 2021 5:53:46 GMT simon darkshade said:

Jul 17, 2021 10:41:35 GMT stevep said:

  From what I recall, although going back ~25 years the fantasy universe was pretty much grim-dark as well.  The elves in terminal decline - other than the Dark elves - the Dwarfs largely exhausted and the Empire staggering from crisis to crisis.  The other good or neutral groups also being pretty much clinging on grimly as well.

Sorry to perform a little bit of necromancy here, but fitting enough for Warhammer. 

WF and WFRP have always emphasised GRIMDARK throughout their existence, with only the comic edge of some of the 1980s material offsetting it.

I’d say it was definitely a product of its time and place, with a lot of 1980s British fantasy coming following trends of darkness, cynicism, imminent nuclear destruction, social degeneration, dark urban corruption and taking the mickey out of institutions. This did contrast with some of the more classically heroic fantasy settings emerging from the USA at the time.

From Britain, we got Warhammer (the trope namer of Grimdark), Fighting Fantasy, Lone Wolf, Dragon Warriors, Maelstrom, Judge Dredd and V for Vendetta. All very identifiable as 1980s British in their style, tone, light and, well, alignment (if I can use D&D terminology. There were stylistic exceptions such as David Gemmell, but his works never made it to roleplaying games (darn it) and really fit into their own niche.

From America, there was of course D&D/AD&D (including Dragonlance), Tunnels and Trolls, Fantasy Hero, MERP, RuneQuest and Space 1889, to name only a few. Breaking the mould slightly are the darker American games/settings, such as Shadowrun, Ars Magicka, Call of Cthulhu and Twilight 2000.

Grimdark isn’t only a creature of its time, but much can be explained by then.

I found a couple of links that discuss the issue:

www.rpgpub.com/threads/the-british-old-school-revival-b-osr.3307/
uncaringcosmos.com/new-game/

  simon darkshade,

  Very interesting point.  Coupled with the negativity of punk and Thatcherism and the revived social conflict. 

  Your trap was only partly successful.  I read the 1st link but managed to break free early on page 3.   A lot of those old names I've heard of and a few I played, albeit generally briefly as only really had the contacts for RPGs while at Uni.  Also generally preferred more classic strategy games. 

  Never actually realised Judge Dread was British produced!

  Steve

[simon darkshade]

Steve,

It did seem a confluence of several factors pushing the situation that not only was the general setting both grim and dark, but that all the authorities were corrupt, all religious groups were exploitative etc.

I wasn't necessarily aiming to drag you down rabbit hole; rather, it was just a nice side effect. Judge Dredd was one of several products from 2000AD, apparently

The British games and gamebooks in particular were extremely formative of my tastes in both fantasy and roleplaying games. I started off on Fighting Fantasy in the 1980s, then expanded fanatically to Lone Wolf, dabbled in Warhammer and read some Dragon Warriors, before shifting into AD&D, Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms between 11-15 and discovering Gemmell at 14.

Their influence comes across in some parts of my writing. I love the historicity and urban settings, love the attention to detail and can go along with some degree of the black humour - I don't have as much liking for Blackadder/Monty Python type humour all these years later, but can appreciate some punning and humour. Not everything has to be Tolkien. However, I do not like it where it basically becomes outright satire, as the fantasy writers and game designers are rarely good enough as satirists to carry it off. The elements cited as characteristic of Grim Dark on the second link don't offend me in and of themselves and they can work well enough; what I don't like about Grim Dark is the pointlessness/hopelessness of the world. Not only is everything doomed, but that's a good thing, as everyone is really, really bad and the world is horrible.

There is no room for heroism in such games, just that type of grey mercenary behaviour that is beloved of modern fantasy writers and computer game designers. I give a slight pass to the works of the 1980s as they were subverting the early tropes of heroic fantasy, given that the modern variation of the form was still emerging, but 40 years later, it isn't subversion - it is laziness and plain poor writing.

If the only alternate to Grimdark is Noblebright - an optimistic world where noble heroes quest and defeat evil - then there might be a point to it. However, there isn't.

If we think of the genres in a graph, there is a general pattern of:

Noblebright Grimbright

Nobledark Grimdark

Noblebright: Superman and Star Trek
Nobledark: The world is a terrible and dangerous place, but there are good and noble people. They can make a difference and defeat evil, although this usually comes at a great cost.
Grimbright: The world is a nasty place and our heroes can't really effect it, but they try anyway. Some good can be accomplished on a micro basis. The Fallout universe fits here
Grimdark: Warhammer 40k, Game of Thrones/ASoIAF

Works are differently placed on the continuum. My preference lies in the Noblebright and Nobledark quadrants; some of the examples listed below gel with me

1d4chan.org/wiki/Noblebright#8chan_Anon_Explains_the_Grim.2FNoble_and_Dark.2FBright_Spectrum

Simon

[Zyobot]

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[lordroel]

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[stevep]

Oct 4, 2021 19:27:14 GMT lordroel said:

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  Interesting, especially since I know so little of the SW universe aside from the 1st three films.  Generally in agreement although think he overlooks the advantages of what he calls a fusion system over the standard US separation of power.  As he points out modern Germany has done very well under such a system.  Other nations, most noticeably for me Britain haven't but that's less due to the system per-say than a flawed electional system and the widespread corruption and centralization of wealth and non-political power.  Which is also a serious problem in the US despite its separation of powers and has arguably made it harder to resolve problem of wealth and power disparity.

[lordroel]

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[lordroel]

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