mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Feb 20, 2019 17:22:27 GMT
August 2 1974: The territory of the GDR and East Berlin, and everything in it and under it, is propelled back to August 2 1934, the day Paul von Hindenburg died.
Thoughts? Effects?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 20, 2019 17:26:26 GMT
August 2 1974: The territory of the GDR and East Berlin, and everything in it and under it, is propelled back to August 2 1934, the day Paul von Hindenburg died. Thoughts? Effects? Are the Soviet also brought along. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 20, 2019 18:14:20 GMT
August 2 1974: The territory of the GDR and East Berlin, and everything in it and under it, is propelled back to August 2 1934, the day Paul von Hindenburg died. Thoughts? Effects? Are the Soviet also brought along. Judging by the OP, I assume not. If you mean, however, Soviet assets and personnel that were in East Germany and their Berlin at the time of the ISOT, then the answer to that would be yes. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Feb 20, 2019 18:19:56 GMT
Are the Soviet also brought along. Judging by the OP, I assume not. If you mean, however, Soviet assets and personnel that were in East Germany and their Berlin at the time of the ISOT, then the answer to that would be yes.Jeez... five field armies, two air armies and a host of nuclear weapons (tactical and strategic). With East German help, they could take all of mainland Europe... or go back to Moscow to 'correct' things there to the liking of whomever the ambassador and/or the senior KGB man in-country sees fit. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 20, 2019 19:13:20 GMT
Well Hitler is gone, if East Berlin has come along that means he is gone as well as he most likely would be in Berlin.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 21, 2019 3:37:15 GMT
Judging by the OP, I assume not. If you mean, however, Soviet assets and personnel that were in East Germany and their Berlin at the time of the ISOT, then the answer to that would be yes.Jeez... five field armies, two air armies and a host of nuclear weapons (tactical and strategic). With East German help, they could take all of mainland Europe... or go back to Moscow to 'correct' things there to the liking of whomever the ambassador and/or the senior KGB man in-country sees fit. The 1934 people are screwed hard, aren't they? Add four decades in military advancements and formidable numbers of troops to a world in the middle of the Great Depression and already exhausted by one World War to boot, and East Germany won't have trouble steamrolling mainland Europe and perhaps turning it Red much earlier. [Sigh] These "uptimer commies, downtimer setting" ISOTs are the sort that I don't tend to enjoy all that much. |
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Feb 21, 2019 6:28:40 GMT
But the opposite isn't interesting either - Erich Honecker's GDR to 9/11 just means rapid collapse and rapid reunification.
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Post by Middlesex_Toffeeman on Feb 21, 2019 7:29:07 GMT
Commies rule the world. Ballistic missiles in East Germany get used against Britain and America, the Nazis and French are steamrolled.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 21, 2019 16:08:11 GMT
Well Hitler is gone, if East Berlin has come along that means he is gone as well as he most likely would be in Berlin.
Well taking it literally W Berlin isn't brought along so if he's there he would survive but I suspect not for very long at all.
Agree with James. Its possible that other powers might survive if the Soviet forces and their nukes aren't brought along, especially since you could see some interesting reactions in E Germany. For instance how many might see a non-communist Germany, especially one which isn't yet ruled by Hitler and doubly so if he's lost in the ISOT, preferably to the communist state. Also at least some communists, including possibly high members of the party could be less than willing to work closely with Stalin. Since Stalin would read 'work closely with' as be totally obedient to him and also he's unlikely to view people with such power as acceptable, looking to have them purged and replaced by down-time communists he's more certain of controlling.
However if the Soviet forces are there is a cake-walk for them and a very bloody time for everybody else I fear. Even if they clash with the down-time Soviet Union, which is possible.
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Post by Panzerlied on Jun 25, 2019 1:34:05 GMT
Commies rule the world. Ballistic missiles in East Germany get used against Britain and America, the Nazis and French are steamrolled. Nazi Germany will try to spread propaganda that East Germany is the byproduct of 'Judeo-Bolshevik occupation of the Fatherland' or something along these lines. They will try to fight the East German military, only to be crushed in battle by German T-55 and Soviet T-72s. Some Nazi Germans are tried and executed for future war crimes (which may or may not inspired future literature concerning this controversial topic, in that should a person should be judged and condemned for their future crimes, even if they technically didn't commit those crimes). Some downtime Germans fled to neighboring nations, as the East German Army advanced. East Germany will win the war and Germany will be unified under German rule, with the potential of a German goverment-in-exile, with some moderates and many center-right and right-wing parties forming it, with Reichwher personnel (mostly the Reichsmarine), forming the military of the goverment-in-exile. The British, the French, the Americans, and all non-Communist countries are now all terrified that a now communist Germany, that appeared out of nowhere, with military technology more advanced than any of the three nations. The Communist parties across the world, on hearing of a Communist country from the future, maybe emboldened them, especially when the East Germans sends aid (potentially getting them banned and creating political instability). This can cause right-wing parties to rise in popularity. The downtime non-communist countries may band together and found an organization similar to NATO, especially if they manage to find out their future history (if they manage to find out that is). The Italians and Japanese may even join this organization, but for the latter, they could also use this opportunity to conquer SE Asia, while Europe and America are distracted with Eastern Germany and the Communists, which may end with Japan and a majority of Asia becoming communist states. The Soviet forces in Germany will most likely return to the Soviet Union, and Stalin will still conduct the purges, but also getting rid of Kruschev and his initial supporters, and working on a trade agreement with East Germany, trading East German finished goods for Soviet raw materials. The military purges may still happen, but maybe to a lesser extent. Austria will ask Fascist Italy for military assistance, which the Italian will quickly oblige, as Austria will serve as extra defense from the Communists. Poland may or may not Anschluss the eastern parts of downtime Germany, depending on how quick the East Germans and the Polish react, and whether the downtime German approves of this. Either way, Poland will be most likely dead in a future war, with two powerful Communist states in either direction. France and Spain may have a civil war, with the Communist have a higher chance of winning both conflicts, due to better equipment, foresight, etc. But all of this depends on certain factors. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 25, 2019 3:40:06 GMT
Commies rule the world. Ballistic missiles in East Germany get used against Britain and America, the Nazis and French are steamrolled. Nazi Germany will try to spread propaganda that East Germany is the byproduct of 'Judeo-Bolshevik occupation of the Fatherland' or something along these lines. They will try to fight the East German military, only to be crushed in battle by German T-55 and Soviet T-72s. Some Nazi Germans are tried and executed for future war crimes (which may or may not inspired future literature concerning this controversial topic, in that should a person should be judged and condemned for their future crimes, even if they technically didn't commit those crimes). Some downtime Germans fled to neighboring nations, as the East German Army advanced. East Germany will win the war and Germany will be unified under German rule, with the potential of a German goverment-in-exile, with some moderates and many center-right and right-wing parties forming it, with Reichwher personnel (mostly the Reichsmarine), forming the military of the goverment-in-exile. The British, the French, the Americans, and all non-Communist countries are now all terrified that a now communist Germany, that appeared out of nowhere, with military technology more advanced than any of the three nations. The Communist parties across the world, on hearing of a Communist country from the future, maybe emboldened them, especially when the East Germans sends aid (potentially getting them banned and creating political instability). This can cause right-wing parties to rise in popularity. The downtime non-communist countries may band together and found an organization similar to NATO, especially if they manage to find out their future history (if they manage to find out that is). The Italians and Japanese may even join this organization, but for the latter, they could also use this opportunity to conquer SE Asia, while Europe and America are distracted with Eastern Germany and the Communists, which may end with Japan and a majority of Asia becoming communist states. The Soviet forces in Germany will most likely return to the Soviet Union, and Stalin will still conduct the purges, but also getting rid of Kruschev and his initial supporters, and working on a trade agreement with East Germany, trading East German finished goods for Soviet raw materials. The military purges may still happen, but maybe to a lesser extent. Austria will ask Fascist Italy for military assistance, which the Italian will quickly oblige, as Austria will serve as extra defense from the Communists. Poland may or may not Anschluss the eastern parts of downtime Germany, depending on how quick the East Germans and the Polish react, and whether the downtime German approves of this. Either way, Poland will be most likely dead in a future war, with two powerful Communist states in either direction. France and Spain may have a civil war, with the Communist have a higher chance of winning both conflicts, due to better equipment, foresight, etc. But all of this depends on certain factors. And then a United GDR will look Eastwards and see Poland, and thus World War II begins, this time with a very advance united Germany under communist rule. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 25, 2019 10:13:41 GMT
Nazi Germany will try to spread propaganda that East Germany is the byproduct of 'Judeo-Bolshevik occupation of the Fatherland' or something along these lines. They will try to fight the East German military, only to be crushed in battle by German T-55 and Soviet T-72s. Some Nazi Germans are tried and executed for future war crimes (which may or may not inspired future literature concerning this controversial topic, in that should a person should be judged and condemned for their future crimes, even if they technically didn't commit those crimes). Some downtime Germans fled to neighboring nations, as the East German Army advanced. East Germany will win the war and Germany will be unified under German rule, with the potential of a German goverment-in-exile, with some moderates and many center-right and right-wing parties forming it, with Reichwher personnel (mostly the Reichsmarine), forming the military of the goverment-in-exile. The British, the French, the Americans, and all non-Communist countries are now all terrified that a now communist Germany, that appeared out of nowhere, with military technology more advanced than any of the three nations. The Communist parties across the world, on hearing of a Communist country from the future, maybe emboldened them, especially when the East Germans sends aid (potentially getting them banned and creating political instability). This can cause right-wing parties to rise in popularity. The downtime non-communist countries may band together and found an organization similar to NATO, especially if they manage to find out their future history (if they manage to find out that is). The Italians and Japanese may even join this organization, but for the latter, they could also use this opportunity to conquer SE Asia, while Europe and America are distracted with Eastern Germany and the Communists, which may end with Japan and a majority of Asia becoming communist states. The Soviet forces in Germany will most likely return to the Soviet Union, and Stalin will still conduct the purges, but also getting rid of Kruschev and his initial supporters, and working on a trade agreement with East Germany, trading East German finished goods for Soviet raw materials. The military purges may still happen, but maybe to a lesser extent. Austria will ask Fascist Italy for military assistance, which the Italian will quickly oblige, as Austria will serve as extra defense from the Communists. Poland may or may not Anschluss the eastern parts of downtime Germany, depending on how quick the East Germans and the Polish react, and whether the downtime German approves of this. Either way, Poland will be most likely dead in a future war, with two powerful Communist states in either direction. France and Spain may have a civil war, with the Communist have a higher chance of winning both conflicts, due to better equipment, foresight, etc. But all of this depends on certain factors. And then a United GDR will look Eastwards and see Poland, and thus World War II begins, this time with a very advance united Germany under communist rule.
Agreed. I can't see any Germany, especially not a highly militarised totalitarian one, allowing Poland, or anyone else to overrun the German eastern territories.
The big issue is how the Soviet forces in E Germany interact with both their E German cohabitants and the current Soviet leadership. If they support Stalin its pretty much game over. If they oppose or at least refuse to obey him then there's chances for the rest of the world. It's possible, depending on the situation that they might make a deal with the E Germans or possible but very unlikely I suspect they could be couped by the E German regime and military. Although that would be very dangerous with all the nukes under Soviet command.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 25, 2019 13:36:29 GMT
And then a United GDR will look Eastwards and see Poland, and thus World War II begins, this time with a very advance united Germany under communist rule. Agreed. I can't see any Germany, especially not a highly militarised totalitarian one, allowing Poland, or anyone else to overrun the German eastern territories.
The big issue is how the Soviet forces in E Germany interact with both their E German cohabitants and the current Soviet leadership. If they support Stalin its pretty much game over. If they oppose or at least refuse to obey him then there's chances for the rest of the world. It's possible, depending on the situation that they might make a deal with the E Germans or possible but very unlikely I suspect they could be couped by the E German regime and military. Although that would be very dangerous with all the nukes under Soviet command.
Seems that this person is Commanders-in-Chief of the GSFG in 1974, Army General Yevgeni F. Ivanovski, could he not lead a coup in Moscow. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 25, 2019 14:49:51 GMT
Agreed. I can't see any Germany, especially not a highly militarised totalitarian one, allowing Poland, or anyone else to overrun the German eastern territories.
The big issue is how the Soviet forces in E Germany interact with both their E German cohabitants and the current Soviet leadership. If they support Stalin its pretty much game over. If they oppose or at least refuse to obey him then there's chances for the rest of the world. It's possible, depending on the situation that they might make a deal with the E Germans or possible but very unlikely I suspect they could be couped by the E German regime and military. Although that would be very dangerous with all the nukes under Soviet command.
Seems that this person is Commanders-in-Chief of the GSFG in 1974, Army General Yevgeni F. Ivanovski, could he not lead a coup in Moscow.
Possibly that but would require a hell of a lot of support from both the Soviet forces based in E Germany and the E German leadership. Also it would mean somehow getting across downtime E Germany and Poland and projecting power a long way. I'm not sure a coup would have much of a chance as that requires influence in the forces and establishment in Moscow in 1934 which he wouldn't have so it really would involve an invasion. he would theoretically have some very powerful forces under his control but how their logistics would be reaching deep into 34 Russia I doubt know. Also I can't see him using nuclear weapons on any, let alone a large scale so decapitating the old regime by nuking Stalin is unlikely.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 25, 2019 14:55:03 GMT
Possibly that but would require a hell of a lot of support from both the Soviet forces based in E Germany and the E German leadership. Also it would mean somehow getting across downtime E Germany and Poland and projecting power a long way. I'm not sure a coup would have much of a chance as that requires influence in the forces and establishment in Moscow in 1934 which he wouldn't have so it really would involve an invasion. he would theoretically have some very powerful forces under his control but how their logistics would be reaching deep into 34 Russia I doubt know. Also I can't see him using nuclear weapons on any, let alone a large scale so decapitating the old regime by nuking Stalin is unlikely.
Did Soviet Forces in Germany have access to nucular weapons |
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