Random ORBATs!

[stevep]

Feb 19, 2020 14:08:40 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 19, 2020 12:47:36 GMT stevep said:

  Agreed, a hell of a lot of detail there.  Not sure about the Aussies and some of the Europeans being dragged into it, although unfortunately I could see us as likely to be.  Assuming Tehran has done a few more bloody stupid things and the US is no longer Trump lead and hence looks a lot more reasonable and responsible.

Only seeing the British, French and Greeks on the Orbat, ore did i miss a European country.

  I think most of the others are naval support.  Did you look there?  I.e. in the ships there are:

Task Force 50
Multinational Surface Action Group
• ESPS Santa Maria (FF)
• ESPS Victoria (FF)
• HMCS Halifax (FF)
• HS Hydra (FF)
• HS Adrias (FF)
• HMAS Hobart (DDG)
• HMAS Anzac (FF)
• HMAS Perth (FF)

Task Force 51
Expeditionary Strike Group 1
• RFA Lyme Bay (LSD)
• HMAS Canberra (LHD)

3rd Commando Brigade, Royal Marines
• 2nd Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment (Amphibious)

Task Force 52
Minesweeper Group

• ESPS Segura (MCS)
• ESPS Tambre (MCS)

  We have, removing the US, UK and French:

ESPS -which I think are Spanish, also possibly the HS?

HMCS - Canadian

HMAS  - Australian

RFA - Which I think is actually British, one of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary units?  So definitely some Spanish as well as Aussies and Canadians and I think forcon mentioned some others.

  Ah ninjied already.

[forcon]

Allied Forces to Intervene in the event of a Soviet invasion of Iran. 

I Marine Expeditionary Force
• 1st Combat Logistics Regiment
• 4th UK Armoured Brigade
• 7th Marine Expeditionary Brigade 
• 15th Combat Logistics Regiment
• 17th Combat Logistics Regiment
1st Marine Division
• Regimental Combat Team 1
• Regimental Combat Team 4
• Regimental Combat Team 5
• 11th Marine Regiment
3rd Marine Division
• Regimental Combat Team 3
• Regimental Combat Team 9
• Regimental Combat Team 23 (USMCR)
• 12th Marine Regiment
11th French Airborne Division
• Group West 
• Group East 

I Corps
• 11th Air Defence Artillery Brigade
• 16th Combat Aviation Brigade
• 17th Field Artillery Brigade
• 42nd Military Police Brigade
• 172nd Infantry Brigade (Light)
• 201st Military Intelligence Brigade
• 555th Engineer Brigade
4th Mechanized Infantry Division
• 1st Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
• 2nd Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
• 3rd Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
10th Mountain Division
• 1st Infantry Brigade (Light)
• 2nd Infantry Brigade (Light)
• 27th Infantry Brigade (Light) (NY ARNG)
9th Motorized Infantry Division
• 1st Brigade (Motorized)
• 2nd Brigade (Motorized)
• 81st Infantry Brigade (Light) (WA ARNG)

XVIII Airborne Corps
• 7th Transportation Brigade
• 11th Combat Aviation Brigade
• 16th Military Police Brigade
• 18th Field Artillery Brigade
• 20th Engineer Brigade
• 35th Signals Brigade
• 44th Medical Brigade
• 108th Air Defence Artillery Brigade
• 194th Armored Brigade
• 197th Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
• 525th Military Intelligence Brigade
7th Light Infantry Division
• 1st Infantry Brigade (Light)
• 2nd Infantry Brigade (Light)
• 3rd Infantry Brigade (Light)
24th Mechanized Infantry Division
• 1st Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
• 2nd Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
• 48th Infantry Brigade (Mechanized) (GA ARNG) 
82nd Airborne Division
• 1st Airborne Brigade
• 2nd Airborne Brigade
• 3rd Airborne Brigade
101st Air Assault Division
• 1st Infantry Brigade (Air Assault)
• 2nd Infantry Brigade (Air Assault)
• 3rd Infantry Brigade (Air Assault)

[lordroel]

There is a book in the Netherlands about what if in 2002 Pim Fortuyn was not assassinated, in the book Pim Fortuyn becomes Prime Minster and in 2003 when the 2003 Iraq War began the Netherlands sends 3,000 troops to join the Americans in the war.

Now i trying to figure out, what could the Netherlands send in 2003.

[forcon]

US & Allied Defending the Islamic Republic of Iran from the Soviet invasion of 1988

US I Marine Amphibious Force
• 1st Combat Logistics Regiment
• 7th Marine Amphibious Brigade
• 15th Combat Logistics Regiment
• 197th Field Artillery Brigade (NH ARNG)
1st Marine Division
• 1st Marine Regiment
• 5th Marine Regiment
• 7th Marine Regiment
• 11th Marine Artillery Regiment
9th Infantry Division (Motorized)
• 1st Infantry Brigade (Motorized)
• 2nd Infantry Brigade (Motorized)
• 157th Infantry Brigade (Mechanized) (USAR)

US XVIII Airborne Corps
• 11th Air Defence Artillery Brigade
• 16th Military Police Brigade
• 18th Field Artillery Brigade
• 18th Aviation Brigade
• 20th Engineer Brigade
7th Infantry Division (Light)
• 1st Infantry Brigade (Light)
• 2nd Infantry Brigade (Light)
• 3rd Infantry Brigade (Light)
24th Infantry Division (Mechanized)
• 1st Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
• 2nd Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
• 197th Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
82nd Airborne Division
• 1st Airborne Brigade
• 2nd Airborne Brigade
• 3rd Airborne Brigade
101st Air Assault Division
• 1st Air Assault Brigade
• 2nd Air Assault Brigade
• 3rd Air Assault Brigade

US X Corps *
• 6th Air Cavalry Brigade
• 35th Air Defence Artillery Brigade
• 46th Engineer Group (MI ARNG)
• 107th Armored Cavalry Regiment (OH ARNG)
• 113th Field Artillery Brigade (GA ARNG)
• 221st Military Police Brigade (USAR)
1st Infantry Division (Mechanized)
• 1st Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
• 2nd Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
• 3rd Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
5th Infantry Division (Mechanized)
• 1st Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
• 2nd Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
• 256th Infantry Brigade (LA ARNG) (Mechanized)
49th Armored Division (TX ARNG)
• 1st Armored Brigade
• 2nd Armored Brigade
• 3rd Armored Brigade

Socotra Island Landing Force
• 3rd UK commando Brigade, Royal Marines

*(Formed from US Army, USAR & ARNG units to provide a ‘heavy’ force to the ME Theatre of Operations while minimising disruption to REFORGER should the Soviets escalate the war into World War III. 35th & 42nd Mechanized Infantry Divisions are mobilised to replace 1st & 5th Mechanized Infantry Divisions in their respective roles as REFORGER assets for VII Corps & III Corps.)

[redrobin65]

Brest-Litovsk Repudiated: German and satellite Forces in Eastern Europe, summer of 1940

Army Group North (deployed in the United Baltic Duchy and Lithuania, against the Russian border)

German Seventh Army

German VII Panzer Corps

German 9th Panzer Division
German 72nd Motorized Division
German 90th Motorized Division

Baltic I Corps

Baltic Eiserne Division
Baltic 1st Kurland Infantry Division
Baltic 2nd Livland Infantry Division

Baltic II Corps

Baltic 3rd  Estland Infantry Division
Deutsche-Balt Grenadier Division

Lithuanian Army (Deployed in Lithuania)
1st Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Brigade
The Lithuanian Armoured Regiment

Army Group North Reserves
German 43rd Infantry Division
German Kaiser Wilhelm Infantry Division
German 22nd Panzer Division

Army Group South (deployed in Belarus and Ukraine, mostly on the Russian border)

German Eleventh Army

German XII Corps

German 66th Infantry Division
German 5th Cavalry Division

German XV Corps

German 99th Infantry Division
German 138th Infantry Division

Belorussian I Corps

Belorussian 1st Infantry Division
Belorussian 2nd Infantry Division
Belorussian 1st Cavalry Brigade

Ukrainian First Army 

Ukrainian I Corps

Ukrainian 2nd Infantry Division
Ukrainian 7th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Armoured Division

Ukrainian II Corps

Ukrainian 4th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 5th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Parachute Brigade

German Twenty-First Army

German XL Corps

German 14th Motorized Division
German 9th Cavalry Division
German 2nd Marine Brigade

Ukrainian III Corps

Ukrainian 9th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 15th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 2nd Cavalry Division

(Independent) Ukrainian IV Corps (deployed against Romania)
Ukrainian 1st Infantry Division
Ukrainian 6th Infantry Division

Army Group South Reserves
Ukrainian 2nd Armoured Division
Ukrainian 16th Infantry Division
German von Mackensen Grenadier Division

[lordroel]

Apr 20, 2020 4:01:16 GMT redrobin65 said:

Brest-Litovsk Repudiated: German and satellite Forces in Eastern Europe, summer of 1940

Army Group North (deployed in the United Baltic Duchy and Lithuania, against the Russian border)

German Seventh Army

German VII Panzer Corps

German 9th Panzer Division
German 72nd Motorized Division
German 90th Motorized Division

Baltic I Corps

Baltic Eiserne Division
Baltic 1st Kurland Infantry Division
Baltic 2nd Livland Infantry Division

Baltic II Corps

Baltic 3rd  Estland Infantry Division
Deutsche-Balt Grenadier Division

Lithuanian Army (Deployed in Lithuania)
1st Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Brigade
The Lithuanian Armoured Regiment

Army Group North Reserves
German 43rd Infantry Division
German Kaiser Wilhelm Infantry Division
German 22nd Panzer Division

Army Group South (deployed in Belarus and Ukraine, mostly on the Russian border)

German Eleventh Army

German XII Corps

German 66th Infantry Division
German 5th Cavalry Division

German XV Corps

German 99th Infantry Division
German 138th Infantry Division

Belorussian I Corps

Belorussian 1st Infantry Division
Belorussian 2nd Infantry Division
Belorussian 1st Cavalry Brigade

Ukrainian First Army 

Ukrainian I Corps

Ukrainian 2nd Infantry Division
Ukrainian 7th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Armoured Division

Ukrainian II Corps

Ukrainian 4th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 5th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Parachute Brigade

German Twenty-First Army

German XL Corps

German 14th Motorized Division
German 9th Cavalry Division
German 2nd Marine Brigade

Ukrainian III Corps

Ukrainian 9th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 15th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 2nd Cavalry Division

(Independent) Ukrainian IV Corps (deployed against Romania)
Ukrainian 1st Infantry Division
Ukrainian 6th Infantry Division

Army Group South Reserves
Ukrainian 2nd Armoured Division
Ukrainian 16th Infantry Division
German von Mackensen Grenadier Division

Interesting, is it part of a TL.

[redrobin65]

Apr 20, 2020 14:31:42 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 20, 2020 4:01:16 GMT redrobin65 said:

Brest-Litovsk Repudiated: German and satellite Forces in Eastern Europe, summer of 1940

Army Group North (deployed in the United Baltic Duchy and Lithuania, against the Russian border)

German Seventh Army

German VII Panzer Corps

German 9th Panzer Division
German 72nd Motorized Division
German 90th Motorized Division

Baltic I Corps

Baltic Eiserne Division
Baltic 1st Kurland Infantry Division
Baltic 2nd Livland Infantry Division

Baltic II Corps

Baltic 3rd  Estland Infantry Division
Deutsche-Balt Grenadier Division

Lithuanian Army (Deployed in Lithuania)
1st Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Brigade
The Lithuanian Armoured Regiment

Army Group North Reserves
German 43rd Infantry Division
German Kaiser Wilhelm Infantry Division
German 22nd Panzer Division

Army Group South (deployed in Belarus and Ukraine, mostly on the Russian border)

German Eleventh Army

German XII Corps

German 66th Infantry Division
German 5th Cavalry Division

German XV Corps

German 99th Infantry Division
German 138th Infantry Division

Belorussian I Corps

Belorussian 1st Infantry Division
Belorussian 2nd Infantry Division
Belorussian 1st Cavalry Brigade

Ukrainian First Army 

Ukrainian I Corps

Ukrainian 2nd Infantry Division
Ukrainian 7th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Armoured Division

Ukrainian II Corps

Ukrainian 4th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 5th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Parachute Brigade

German Twenty-First Army

German XL Corps

German 14th Motorized Division
German 9th Cavalry Division
German 2nd Marine Brigade

Ukrainian III Corps

Ukrainian 9th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 15th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 2nd Cavalry Division

(Independent) Ukrainian IV Corps (deployed against Romania)
Ukrainian 1st Infantry Division
Ukrainian 6th Infantry Division

Army Group South Reserves
Ukrainian 2nd Armoured Division
Ukrainian 16th Infantry Division
German von Mackensen Grenadier Division

Interesting, is it part of a TL.

Kind of, it's part of an idea for one that I've explored.

[lordroel]

Apr 20, 2020 14:31:42 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 20, 2020 4:01:16 GMT redrobin65 said:

Brest-Litovsk Repudiated: German and satellite Forces in Eastern Europe, summer of 1940

Army Group North (deployed in the United Baltic Duchy and Lithuania, against the Russian border)

German Seventh Army

German VII Panzer Corps

German 9th Panzer Division
German 72nd Motorized Division
German 90th Motorized Division

Baltic I Corps

Baltic Eiserne Division
Baltic 1st Kurland Infantry Division
Baltic 2nd Livland Infantry Division

Baltic II Corps

Baltic 3rd  Estland Infantry Division
Deutsche-Balt Grenadier Division

Lithuanian Army (Deployed in Lithuania)
1st Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Brigade
The Lithuanian Armoured Regiment

Army Group North Reserves
German 43rd Infantry Division
German Kaiser Wilhelm Infantry Division
German 22nd Panzer Division

Army Group South (deployed in Belarus and Ukraine, mostly on the Russian border)

German Eleventh Army

German XII Corps

German 66th Infantry Division
German 5th Cavalry Division

German XV Corps

German 99th Infantry Division
German 138th Infantry Division

Belorussian I Corps

Belorussian 1st Infantry Division
Belorussian 2nd Infantry Division
Belorussian 1st Cavalry Brigade

Ukrainian First Army 

Ukrainian I Corps

Ukrainian 2nd Infantry Division
Ukrainian 7th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Armoured Division

Ukrainian II Corps

Ukrainian 4th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 5th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Parachute Brigade

German Twenty-First Army

German XL Corps

German 14th Motorized Division
German 9th Cavalry Division
German 2nd Marine Brigade

Ukrainian III Corps

Ukrainian 9th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 15th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 2nd Cavalry Division

(Independent) Ukrainian IV Corps (deployed against Romania)
Ukrainian 1st Infantry Division
Ukrainian 6th Infantry Division

Army Group South Reserves
Ukrainian 2nd Armoured Division
Ukrainian 16th Infantry Division
German von Mackensen Grenadier Division

Interesting, is it part of a TL.

Nice, looking at it i see a independent ore German puppet controlled Ukraine.

[stevep]

Apr 20, 2020 4:01:16 GMT redrobin65 said:

Brest-Litovsk Repudiated: German and satellite Forces in Eastern Europe, summer of 1940

Army Group North (deployed in the United Baltic Duchy and Lithuania, against the Russian border)

German Seventh Army

German VII Panzer Corps

German 9th Panzer Division
German 72nd Motorized Division
German 90th Motorized Division

Baltic I Corps

Baltic Eiserne Division
Baltic 1st Kurland Infantry Division
Baltic 2nd Livland Infantry Division

Baltic II Corps

Baltic 3rd  Estland Infantry Division
Deutsche-Balt Grenadier Division

Lithuanian Army (Deployed in Lithuania)
1st Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Brigade
The Lithuanian Armoured Regiment

Army Group North Reserves
German 43rd Infantry Division
German Kaiser Wilhelm Infantry Division
German 22nd Panzer Division

Army Group South (deployed in Belarus and Ukraine, mostly on the Russian border)

German Eleventh Army

German XII Corps

German 66th Infantry Division
German 5th Cavalry Division

German XV Corps

German 99th Infantry Division
German 138th Infantry Division

Belorussian I Corps

Belorussian 1st Infantry Division
Belorussian 2nd Infantry Division
Belorussian 1st Cavalry Brigade

Ukrainian First Army 

Ukrainian I Corps

Ukrainian 2nd Infantry Division
Ukrainian 7th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Armoured Division

Ukrainian II Corps

Ukrainian 4th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 5th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Parachute Brigade

German Twenty-First Army

German XL Corps

German 14th Motorized Division
German 9th Cavalry Division
German 2nd Marine Brigade

Ukrainian III Corps

Ukrainian 9th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 15th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 2nd Cavalry Division

(Independent) Ukrainian IV Corps (deployed against Romania)
Ukrainian 1st Infantry Division
Ukrainian 6th Infantry Division

Army Group South Reserves
Ukrainian 2nd Armoured Division
Ukrainian 16th Infantry Division
German von Mackensen Grenadier Division

  redrobin65,

  Must admit in a senior moment I misread the heading as no Molotov–Ribbentrop pact!   Realised now its a distinctly earlier POD with presumably Imperial Germany winning, or not decisively losing WWI but a Soviet Russia is trying to escape the worst effect of the 1918 Brest-Litovsk Pact and probably both sides preparing for war.  If the assorted Ukrainian and Belorussian and other assorted non-German units aren't just for show Germany has modified its plans for the east a good bit and is ruling with a distrinctly lighter hand.  In which case I find it difficult to see the Soviets, who have been deprived of a hell of a lot of population and resources even if they haven't had other losses elsewhere, standing a chance in a war here.  Unless their been far better led than under Lenin and Stalin their resistance is likely to collapse pretty quickly.

  Other exception to this might be if they have allies.  Do noticed that the Ukrainian IV Corp is deployed against Romania but whether that suggests Romanian is a Soviet ally or puppet or just a precaution I don't know.

  Steve

[redrobin65]

Apr 20, 2020 15:40:28 GMT stevep said:

Apr 20, 2020 4:01:16 GMT redrobin65 said:

Brest-Litovsk Repudiated: German and satellite Forces in Eastern Europe, summer of 1940

Army Group North (deployed in the United Baltic Duchy and Lithuania, against the Russian border)

German Seventh Army

German VII Panzer Corps

German 9th Panzer Division
German 72nd Motorized Division
German 90th Motorized Division

Baltic I Corps

Baltic Eiserne Division
Baltic 1st Kurland Infantry Division
Baltic 2nd Livland Infantry Division

Baltic II Corps

Baltic 3rd  Estland Infantry Division
Deutsche-Balt Grenadier Division

Lithuanian Army (Deployed in Lithuania)
1st Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Brigade
The Lithuanian Armoured Regiment

Army Group North Reserves
German 43rd Infantry Division
German Kaiser Wilhelm Infantry Division
German 22nd Panzer Division

Army Group South (deployed in Belarus and Ukraine, mostly on the Russian border)

German Eleventh Army

German XII Corps

German 66th Infantry Division
German 5th Cavalry Division

German XV Corps

German 99th Infantry Division
German 138th Infantry Division

Belorussian I Corps

Belorussian 1st Infantry Division
Belorussian 2nd Infantry Division
Belorussian 1st Cavalry Brigade

Ukrainian First Army 

Ukrainian I Corps

Ukrainian 2nd Infantry Division
Ukrainian 7th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Armoured Division

Ukrainian II Corps

Ukrainian 4th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 5th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 1st Parachute Brigade

German Twenty-First Army

German XL Corps

German 14th Motorized Division
German 9th Cavalry Division
German 2nd Marine Brigade

Ukrainian III Corps

Ukrainian 9th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 15th Infantry Division
Ukrainian 2nd Cavalry Division

(Independent) Ukrainian IV Corps (deployed against Romania)
Ukrainian 1st Infantry Division
Ukrainian 6th Infantry Division

Army Group South Reserves
Ukrainian 2nd Armoured Division
Ukrainian 16th Infantry Division
German von Mackensen Grenadier Division

  redrobin65,

  Must admit in a senior moment I misread the heading as no Molotov–Ribbentrop pact!   Realised now its a distinctly earlier POD with presumably Imperial Germany winning, or not decisively losing WWI but a Soviet Russia is trying to escape the worst effect of the 1918 Brest-Litovsk Pact and probably both sides preparing for war.  If the assorted Ukrainian and Belorussian and other assorted non-German units aren't just for show Germany has modified its plans for the east a good bit and is ruling with a distrinctly lighter hand.  In which case I find it difficult to see the Soviets, who have been deprived of a hell of a lot of population and resources even if they haven't had other losses elsewhere, standing a chance in a war here.  Unless their been far better led than under Lenin and Stalin their resistance is likely to collapse pretty quickly.

  Other exception to this might be if they have allies.  Do noticed that the Ukrainian IV Corp is deployed against Romania but whether that suggests Romanian is a Soviet ally or puppet or just a precaution I don't know.

  Steve

In this potential TL, the Soviets were defeated after the Germans, fearful of what they had allowed Lenin to do, intervened in the Civil War to support the Whites. A weak Russian semi-democracy collapsed in 1932 and gave way to an ultranationalist, borderline fascist regime obsessed with revenge.

Normally, there would be more German troops in the East, but an attack in the West by a Britain and France who endured a much worse Great War and have gone socialist/communist/syndicalist had caused many to be diverted.

As for Eastern Europe, Belarus and Lithuania are ruled light-handedly under puppet regimes. The United Baltic Duchy is plagued with unrest and constantly requires German intervention, as the Baltic-German nobility have little regard for the Estonian/Latvian/Russian population and vice versa. Ukraine is Germany's breadbasket, which irritates the locals. Romania is under a similar autocracy as that of Russia.

In terms of the armies of the client states, Belarus' is the best, if small. The Ukrainians have a large, if under-equipped army. Lithuania has a small army that isn't too great with the exeption of their armoured regiment. The Baltic Army is a mixed bag of elite frontline units and troops more used to suppressing revolts.

Not very plausible, if I'm honest, but entertaining to write.

[lordroel]

Apr 20, 2020 17:05:44 GMT redrobin65 said:

Apr 20, 2020 15:40:28 GMT stevep said:

  redrobin65,

  Must admit in a senior moment I misread the heading as no Molotov–Ribbentrop pact!   Realised now its a distinctly earlier POD with presumably Imperial Germany winning, or not decisively losing WWI but a Soviet Russia is trying to escape the worst effect of the 1918 Brest-Litovsk Pact and probably both sides preparing for war.  If the assorted Ukrainian and Belorussian and other assorted non-German units aren't just for show Germany has modified its plans for the east a good bit and is ruling with a distrinctly lighter hand.  In which case I find it difficult to see the Soviets, who have been deprived of a hell of a lot of population and resources even if they haven't had other losses elsewhere, standing a chance in a war here.  Unless their been far better led than under Lenin and Stalin their resistance is likely to collapse pretty quickly.

  Other exception to this might be if they have allies.  Do noticed that the Ukrainian IV Corp is deployed against Romania but whether that suggests Romanian is a Soviet ally or puppet or just a precaution I don't know.

  Steve

In this potential TL, the Soviets were defeated after the Germans, fearful of what they had allowed Lenin to do, intervened in the Civil War to support the Whites. A weak Russian semi-democracy collapsed in 1932 and gave way to an ultranationalist, borderline fascist regime obsessed with revenge.

That means the Germans won against the French and British in order to be able to do that.

[stevep]

Apr 20, 2020 17:05:44 GMT redrobin65 said:

Apr 20, 2020 15:40:28 GMT stevep said:

  redrobin65 ,

  Must admit in a senior moment I misread the heading as no Molotov–Ribbentrop pact!   Realised now its a distinctly earlier POD with presumably Imperial Germany winning, or not decisively losing WWI but a Soviet Russia is trying to escape the worst effect of the 1918 Brest-Litovsk Pact and probably both sides preparing for war.  If the assorted Ukrainian and Belorussian and other assorted non-German units aren't just for show Germany has modified its plans for the east a good bit and is ruling with a distrinctly lighter hand.  In which case I find it difficult to see the Soviets, who have been deprived of a hell of a lot of population and resources even if they haven't had other losses elsewhere, standing a chance in a war here.  Unless their been far better led than under Lenin and Stalin their resistance is likely to collapse pretty quickly.

  Other exception to this might be if they have allies.  Do noticed that the Ukrainian IV Corp is deployed against Romania but whether that suggests Romanian is a Soviet ally or puppet or just a precaution I don't know.

  Steve

In this potential TL, the Soviets were defeated after the Germans, fearful of what they had allowed Lenin to do, intervened in the Civil War to support the Whites. A weak Russian semi-democracy collapsed in 1932 and gave way to an ultranationalist, borderline fascist regime obsessed with revenge.

Normally, there would be more German troops in the East, but an attack in the West by a Britain and France who endured a much worse Great War and have gone socialist/communist/syndicalist had caused many to be diverted.

As for Eastern Europe, Belarus and Lithuania are ruled light-handedly under puppet regimes. The United Baltic Duchy is plagued with unrest and constantly requires German intervention, as the Baltic-German nobility have little regard for the Estonian/Latvian/Russian population and vice versa. Ukraine is Germany's breadbasket, which irritates the locals. Romania is under a similar autocracy as that of Russia.

In terms of the armies of the client states, Belarus' is the best, if small. The Ukrainians have a large, if under-equipped army. Lithuania has a small army that isn't too great with the exeption of their armoured regiment. The Baltic Army is a mixed bag of elite frontline units and troops more used to suppressing revolts.

Not very plausible, if I'm honest, but entertaining to write.

  redrobin65,

  OK thanks for clarifying.  That makes it  a good bit clearer.  Probably unlikely as you say with a fairly moderate post WWI Germany and both Britain and France going hard left but not impossible.

  Steve

[James G]

ORBAT for an American invasion of Cuba in late 1992



US SOUTHERN COMMAND

XVIII AIRBORNE CORPS
(initial assault entry force for the western half of Cuba)
10TH MOUNTAIN DIVISION
82ND AIRBORNE DIVISION
101ST AIRBORNE DIVISION

III CORPS
(follow-up forces)
1ST CAVALRY DIVISION
1ST INFANTRY DIVISION
5TH INFANTRY DIVISION
24TH INFANTRY DIVISION

II MARINE EXPEDITIONARY FORCE
(initial assault entry force for eastern Cuba)
2ND MARINE DIVISION

[lordroel]

Apr 21, 2020 12:00:11 GMT James G said:

ORBAT for an American invasion of Cuba in late 1992



US SOUTHERN COMMAND

XVIII AIRBORNE CORPS
(initial assault entry force for the western half of Cuba)
10TH MOUNTAIN DIVISION
82ND AIRBORNE DIVISION
101ST AIRBORNE DIVISION

III CORPS
(follow-up forces)
1ST CAVALRY DIVISION
1ST INFANTRY DIVISION
5TH INFANTRY DIVISION
24TH INFANTRY DIVISION

II MARINE EXPEDITIONARY FORCE
(initial assault entry force for eastern Cuba)
2ND MARINE DIVISION

Nothing coming out of Guantanamo Bay.

[James G]

Apr 21, 2020 14:57:59 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 21, 2020 12:00:11 GMT James G said:

ORBAT for an American invasion of Cuba in late 1992



US SOUTHERN COMMAND

XVIII AIRBORNE CORPS
(initial assault entry force for the western half of Cuba)
10TH MOUNTAIN DIVISION
82ND AIRBORNE DIVISION
101ST AIRBORNE DIVISION

III CORPS
(follow-up forces)
1ST CAVALRY DIVISION
1ST INFANTRY DIVISION
5TH INFANTRY DIVISION
24TH INFANTRY DIVISION

II MARINE EXPEDITIONARY FORCE
(initial assault entry force for eastern Cuba)
2ND MARINE DIVISION

Nothing coming out of Guantanamo Bay.

There's not much there at Gitmo. It's a naval station but it isn't any real launch point for a full-scale invasion. In this scenario, where the US is invading Cuba post Soviet collapse, it will be a forward airhead for USMC helicopters supporting the II MEF coming from the east but it wouldn't be big enough to be a proper launch point. Guantanamo Bay will be an important factor in an invasion to topple the regime, yes, but not the defining point.