HMS Hood, 2 what if scenarios

[stevep]

Jan 22, 2020 0:36:25 GMT markp said:

With four major fleet units in Brest You are right that Bomber Command would give Brest a lot of attention. I would expect the Germans to be much more aggressive with them. The 4 ships could leave at the same time and spread out in the north Atlantic coordinated with U boats they would be able to dish out some serious hurt on convoys. Operating independently it would take the combined efforts of the home fleet and Force H to track them down. They could end their cruise in various ports in Norway

  If they were all available at the same time, given issues with operational status/damage I think they might at least start out together.  That's because Britain, in response to the threat of surface raiders, where it could anyway, tried to have the important colonies accompanied by one of the slow old BBs - generally one of the old R class or Nelson/Rodney.  With the twins this generally worked as the raiders were ordered to avoid risk of damage but against a combined forces, at least for the R's they might well have risked it and would probably have quickly overwhelmed the defenders probably without noticeable damage.  Possibly splitting up later when fuel or other considerations prompt it.

[lordroel]

I was thinking, what if a carrier had joined Hood.

[1bigrich]

Dec 22, 2019 15:29:35 GMT lordroel said:

Coming from Avalanche Press comes the nice article called, Rebuilding Hood

HMS Hood, 2 what if scenarios

Scenario I, The Mighty Hood

The first scenario presumes Hood is massively reconstructed in the late 1930s, along the lines of the reconstructions given Valiant and Queen Elizabeth — at least partly as a result of studies done for new battleships. Going into the yards at Chatham in early 1937, she would have completed in late 1940, probably having to be moved to Rosyth or Devonport as was Queen Elizabeth. By March of 1940, then, Hood is with the Battle Cruiser Squadron of the Home Fleet.

Hood will now have the classic "castle" bridge structure of reconstructed British heavy ships — Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, Malaya, and Renown — with nearly as much room as the new-construction King George V. Her fourteen 4"/ 45-calibre Quick Fire HA Mk.XVI dual-purpose secondary rifles are replaced by twenty dual-purpose 4.5"/45-calibre QF Mk.I /III rifles in ten Mk.II BD twin-rifle mounts, fitted as in Renown.

Her main battery has also been replaced, the eight 15"/42-calibre BL Mk.I main battery rifles in four Mk.II twin-rifle mounts, with nine 15"/45-calibre BL Mk.II rifles in three triple mounts. The new-design 15-inch rifles are all-steel designs, thus lighter than the Great War-era Mk.Is, and they wear better when firing heavy APC at high velocities.

Even with three triple turrets, Hood's top weight is reduced, while the rifles themselves are superior to every other British capital ship weapon except the untried 16-inch rifles intended for Lion. Indeed, Hood's new 15-inch Mk.II rifles were considered for both the King George V and Lion classes, but the need to conform to Treaty limits in the former, and desire for a heavier shell in the latter, made these weapons surplus and thus eminently suited to Hood. The triple-mount Mk.II turret has more reliable anti-flash protection than the troublesome 14-Inch Mk.III quadruple-mount turret of King George V, and with only three mounts as against four, tolerances are eased enough that Hood's rifles will perform more reliably in action: no more rifles jammed in the loading position, or whole turrets motionless for minutes at a time.

The aft superfiring turret and its barbette are deleted, the aft superstructure being extended over most of that deck space, thereby making room for another octuple Pom-Pom in a Mk.VIA* mount. This new Pom-Pom adds to the three existing mounts to improve her close-in anti-aircraft firepower, permitting three Pom-Poms to bear to either beam fore and aft, two dead ahead, and one dead aft.

The latest high-rpm turbine technology is coupled with very-high-pressure steam generators to produce the 130,000 shaft horsepower (shp) Hood will need to push her 50,000+ tons Deep Load displacement through the water at 30+ knots. Her bunkerage is reduced to that of her design, from 4,615 tons of fuel oil down to 4,000 tons, but endurance is unaffected thanks to the improved machinery, and her new hull form, including a sheered bow. Although she does not have a transom stern, she is given the most modern anti-torpedo system that can be backfit, with voids, fills, and armoured bulkheads and extensive bulging to keep her belt above the waterline.

The belt itself is not changed, nor are the armoured transverse bulkheads altered, but her internal armour scheme is significantly altered. By moving crew accommodation and deleting the aft magazine serving the deleted 'X' turret, and by reducing her conning tower armour to 3"-2" from 11"-9", her armour deck is dramatically improved, from 3" over the magazines and 1.5" over the machinery spaces, it is increased to 5" over the magazines and 3.5" over the machinery spaces. Nothing can be done about its location at this late date; like many of her Great War contemporaries, her armour deck is too low in the ship to protect communications and control spaces. But a new armour deck is laid, adding 1.5" over the magazines and 0.50" over the machinery spaces. Not as strong as single deck, the two decks may just be enough of a margin under air attack, or should an enemy ship score a hit at long range.

The torpedo fittings are finally removed, and their warheads, magazine, and fire controls also. This weight saved is put into a new athwartships catapult and hanger accommodation, built on the foreward end of the aft superstructure, permitting her to operate spotter floatplanes (or the Walrus seaplane). Finally, Type 279 Air Warning RDF is fit.

Refit again in January of 1941, she receives Type 282 Air Warning RDF, Type 273 Surface Warning RDF, a Type 284 Main Battery RDF for each of her three main battery DCTs, and the new Type 243 Aircraft IFF set. Her masts and superstructures are readied to take additional RDF fits and accommodate new technology as it enters the fleet. She receives her first fit of 20mm Oerlikons, eight weapons in single mounts.

By the time she joins the Eastern Fleet, Hood is equipped with Type 282 Air Warning RDF, Type 273 Surface Warning RDF, a Type 274 Main Battery Blind-Fire RDF for each of her three main battery DCTs, a Type 275 Secondary Battery Blind-Fire RDF for each of her DP DCTs, and the Type 253 Aircraft IFF set.

Removal of a barbette is an enormous job!     The RN might be better off just building the J3 battlecruiser design



and sliding it under Hood's bell!

The barbette is an integral part of the ship's strength deck.   Removing one would leave a hole in that deck.   I am not certain that any amount of reinforcing can replace that strength.     In addition, unless the rebuild is going to go with three guns in a single cradle, triple turrets on the twin barbettes are going to be very crowded.    If the twin barbettes are to be replaced with larger barbettes to fit a triple 15in turret, we're back to cutting into the ship's strength deck, adding loads the ship was not designed for.   

With her Mark II turrets, Hood could already elevate her guns to 30 degrees; her turrets do not need to be modified as those of Warspite, Renown, QE and Valiant were.   

Scenario II, Hood, Resurrected

The second and final Scenario assumes that Hood survives the action with Bismarck and Prinz Eugen.

In my opinion, to give Hood a reasonable chance of survival against the German squadron, it is probably necessary to presume that Holland had more luxury in the action with Bismarck; thus his cruisers and destroyers are with him when he is ready to deploy for action. He may well have elected to bring his cruisers up to shadow astern and draw the German squadron's focus away from his heavy ships, or something very like it. With his light forces available, he can force the Germans away at least twice, with the threat and actuality of torpedo attack.

Holland thus moves across the bows of the German ships, presenting the narrowest possible target picture to the German squadron and forcing them to chose either to sail into the British force as the British find the range, or to turn aside to open their "A" arcs and attempt to counteract Holland's advantages.

With that, the British cruisers move in to divide the German fire, a move that would likely have shifted Prinz Eugen's fire away from the British heavy ships and onto the British cruisers, and a classic North Sea melee develops, albeit in the Atlantic proper. Ice, mines, and the nearness of Iceland stand in for the restrictions of the North Sea, and once again, the foes are unevenly matched: the British greatly superior, the Germans caught out. This time, however, there is no trap, no waiting Jellicoe with the whole strength of the Grand Fleet to envelop the German squadron, no High Seas Fleet sortie waiting to trap the British fast ships. Lutjens is indecisive even among a service with more than its share of careful, politically-sensitive officers, and no trace of Spee or Hipper is to be found in him. If Holland is cast in something of the mould of Beatty, without the latter's political and marital baggage, Tovey is no Jellicoe.

Rather than sweeping down with all the power to hand, forcing the Germans to seek action or fly, Tovey is plodding along 350-odd nautical miles away with King George V and Victorious — the only carrier with the Home Fleet, though her aircrew are not fully worked-up — trying to gather in more ships to augment a force he himself ordered divided.

Let us presume, then, that Hood takes a beating but survives. Bismarck and Prinz Eugen are also battered, but draw away after Holland is forced to break off the action. Prince of Wales is also damaged, and with her not yet fully worked-up, the poor design of her quadruple turrets is exacerbated by green gun crews. Holland cannot continue the action with Hood, nor risk the damaged and unreliable Prince of Wales, so he must send his cruisers, which have also taken some damage in drawing Prinz Eugen's fire, after the German squadron to shadow.

In the gloomy weather, Bismarck and Prinz Eugen shake the shadowing British cruisers, but this time Admiral Lutjens is wounded in the action with Hood or perhaps one of his officers, filled with the not unreasonable desire to keep the admiral from giving away their position, conks him on the head and burns his ridiculous and lengthy despatches before anyone can send them off on the wireless. Bismarck and Prinz Eugen reach the outermost limit of the Luftwaffe's operating range, and the Bf.110s and Ju.88s that form a makeshift CAP are more than a match for the Fulmars and Swordfish of Victorious and Ark Royal; the German ships make it to Brest, there to endure the same mixture of luck that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau do, though Bismarck is better protected against the RAF's high explosive bombs, and thus is likely to be in better condition at any point in time.

But Bismarck will have to sail to St. Nazaire at some point, as that harbour holds the only dock large enough to hold her.

Hood is a floating ruin, her aft main magazine flooded after a direct hit from one of Bismarck's 15" APC rounds, her aft decks torn up by the heavy German APC rounds and some of Prinz Eugen's 8-Inch HC (High-Capacity, also known as High-Explosive). Once Lutjens decided on flight, both German ships concentrated on Hood, and her upper works, secondary batteries, and superstructure all show the marks of those cruel attentions. Several of Bismarck's 15" APC rounds have penetrated her belt armour and damaged her machinery spaces, and one aft turret is knocked out, its armoured roof peeled back by the force of the explosion in her handling rooms.

Hood is headed for the U.S.A. for repair, probably escorted by Rodney, the battleship having been en route to the Boston Navy Yard for refit when Tovey summoned her. In the U.S., Hood will join a steadily-growing list of battered British warships, some from nearly every type and class, being repaired and refit in U.S. Navy Yards. For the sake of argument, we'll set her in the New York Navy Yard for repairs and refits.

We had some fun with a US rebuild for Hood several years ago on the BC forum

www.tapatalk.com/groups/alltheworldsbattlecruisers/what-ship-is-that-t8505.html

I do think significant battle damage would be a good way to get Hood into the yards for a rebuild.  Some prospective layouts for Hood post-rebuild can be seen on the HMS Hood site, here:



www.hmshood.com/history/construct/repair42.htm



Several years ago, I transcribed some Admiralty document from photos David Chessum had taken.    They revealed Hood was actually behind Nelson and Rodney in the rebuild schedule, as both battleships' electrical systems were in a very poor state by the late 1930s.   With the deteriorating international situation of that time, all three were in demand, and none ever entered the yard for the necessary modifications.   Nelson came closest to getting what was needed due the damage from a torpedo putting her in the yard for a while.   

Hood 's savaged superstructure will be replaced with the classic "castle" bridge structure of reconstructed British heavy ships. Her obsolete 4"/ 45-calibre QF HA Mk.XVI dual-purpose secondary battery is replaced with twenty dual-purpose 4.5"/45-calibre QF Mk.I /III rifles in ten Mk.II BD twin-rifle mounts, fitted as in Renown. Her masts and superstructure will be readied for RDF to be fit when she returns to Great Britain for completion of her refits and working-up.

Hood is ready to sail by the time Illustrious, Formidable, and Indomitable are formed up to return to Home Waters, and so she crosses the North Atlantic in company with the three carriers.

In home waters, Hood is fit with Type 282 Air Warning RDF, Type 273 Surface Warning RDF, a Type 284 Main Battery RDF for each of her four main battery DCTs, and the new Type 243 Aircraft IFF set. She receives her first fit of 20mm Oerlikons, eight weapons in single mounts.

Hood is laying at Scapa Flow in January 1942, working up with Duke of York for service with the Home Fleet, when the Admiralty learns from "Hilarion" and that the whole of the German Battle Squadron at Brest will be ready for sea by the last week of January, or the first week of February 1942. Bismarck will sortie with Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Admiral Hipper, and Prinz Eugen, possibly to draw off the Home Fleet and permit Lützow and Tirpitz to breakout, possibly to attack the massive WS.16 convoy headed to the Far East.

Whatever the reason, Bismarck will sortie, and Hood will have her revenge. . . .

Sounds like the start of an interesting alternate timeline....

Regards,

[stevep]

Feb 4, 2020 19:06:17 GMT lordroel said:

I was thinking, what if a carrier had joined Hood.

  I think it would have depended on the weather conditions.  The Victorious was involved shortly later and possibly it or another CV could have been in attendance with Holland's ships, although it would be kept back some way, presumably with an escort to protect against subs and the like.  If the weather was good then it might enable Holland's ships to have a more accurate knowledge of where Bismarck was, in which case they could well cross the German T rather than effectively have their own T crossed.  Also if they detected that Prince Eugen was leading Bismarck that might avoid the way the two RN ships initially attacked Prince Eugen 1st.  This gives a much better chance to seriously damage the Bismarck before it could do much to the Hood.

  Of course the sight of carrier based a/c or possibly even an attack from them might persuade Lütjens to call off his attempt to break out into the Atlantic which could mean everybody survives, at least until the Germans make another attempt.  Although with Barbarossa starting not too long afterwards and then British aid to the Soviets its possible that Bismarck, like Tirpitz, is kept back in Norway to attack the Murmansk convoys.  It would be very difficult for the RN to escort such missions if both Bismarck class BBs and some supporting ships were combined in an attack against them.

[lordroel]

Feb 5, 2020 17:27:05 GMT 1bigrich said:

Whatever the reason, Bismarck will sortie, and Hood will have her revenge. . . .Sounds like the start of an interesting alternate timeline....

Thanks for the link 1bigrich ,

Also even with a Hood refit, a successful battle with the Bismarck still depends on many factors.

[1bigrich]

Feb 5, 2020 18:57:50 GMT stevep said:

Feb 4, 2020 19:06:17 GMT lordroel said:

I was thinking, what if a carrier had joined Hood.

  I think it would have depended on the weather conditions.  The Victorious was involved shortly later and possibly it or another CV could have been in attendance with Holland's ships, although it would be kept back some way, presumably with an escort to protect against subs and the like.  If the weather was good then it might enable Holland's ships to have a more accurate knowledge of where Bismarck was, in which case they could well cross the German T rather than effectively have their own T crossed.  Also if they detected that Prince Eugen was leading Bismarck that might avoid the way the two RN ships initially attacked Prince Eugen 1st.  This gives a much better chance to seriously damage the Bismarck before it could do much to the Hood.

When the German ships passed north of Iceland they were hidden in a snow squall (source; Whitley's German Capital Ships).   The weather improved as they moved into the strait, but  the Germans had Greenland's icepack off to starboard; they were committed to their course.   They couldn't maneuver other than turning into Holland's ships.   With the cruisers sighting them, I'm not sure carrier recon would have helped.    Remember Holland was unsure where the Germans were even with Norfolk and Suffolk present.    He had dispatched his 5 escorting destroyers off to the north to look for Lutjens, hence Hood and Prince of Wales were unescorted when the battle was joined.   [/div]

 

Of course the sight of carrier based a/c or possibly even an attack from them might persuade Lütjens to call off his attempt to break out into the Atlantic which could mean everybody survives, at least until the Germans make another attempt.  Although with Barbarossa starting not too long afterwards and then British aid to the Soviets its possible that Bismarck, like Tirpitz, is kept back in Norway to attack the Murmansk convoys.  It would be very difficult for the RN to escort such missions if both Bismarck class BBs and some supporting ships were combined in an attack against them.

With a carrier in company,  it's likely Holland would have tasked his destroyers to stay with the carrier while the capital ships engaged.    If the carrier could get some aircraft airborne (I have no idea the direction of the prevailing wind), it could have been an ideal time for a torpedo plane attack.   With the ice pack off to starboard, the Germans would be limited in avoidance maneuvers.    Of course, Bismarck was a very handy ship; it was reported she would answer even the slightest changes in helm (5 degrees).    Her twin rudders were placed between the races of her three props, so any movement of the help moved both rudders into all three races.

If Lutjens did withdraw, he might attempt another break out later, keeping to the Arctic or dispatching Prinz Eugen to Norway to fuel again.   But having both Bismarck and Tirpitz in the north might mean a very different 1942, especially as disasterous as the last quarter of 1941 was for the RN:  Ark Royal lost 14 November, Barham lost 25 November, Prince of Wales and Repulse lost 10 December, Queen Elizabeth and Valiant mined 19 December. Also subtracted, Indomitable aground 3 November, 15 December Illustrious and Formidable collide returning from repairs in the US.

My thoughts, 

[lordroel]

Feb 5, 2020 17:27:05 GMT 1bigrich said:

Removal of a barbette is an enormous job!     The RN might be better off just building the J3 battlecruiser design

Why is it cheaper and faster to build a new battlecruiser than to refit the Hood.

[markp]

A major reconstruction requires a lot of demolition and the improvements have to be worked around the existing systems that are to remain. Also there are more compromises made due to the basic limitations of the original hull. New construction would allow for more efficient construction and could optimize new technologies better since they would be built into the original design. The treaties put limitations on the replacement of ships making large scale modernizations more acceptable.

Mark

[1bigrich]

Feb 6, 2020 21:32:59 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 5, 2020 17:27:05 GMT 1bigrich said:

Removal of a barbette is an enormous job!     The RN might be better off just building the J3 battlecruiser design

Why is it cheaper and faster to build a new battlecruiser than to refit the Hood.

To take her from 8 x 15in in four twins to 9 x 15in in three triples would be a massive undertaking.  In addition, removal of a barbette seriously compromises the strength of the hull.    Plus the triples would have to fit existing barbettes, or have new barbettes installed.  Again, compromising the strength of the hull.    I have serious doubt to it being possible, let alone worth the effort.    Hence my advocating J3 instead....

My thoughts,

[lordroel]

Feb 7, 2020 14:23:02 GMT 1bigrich said:

Feb 6, 2020 21:32:59 GMT lordroel said:

Why is it cheaper and faster to build a new battlecruiser than to refit the Hood.

To take her from 8 x 15in in four twins to 9 x 15in in three triples would be a massive undertaking.  In addition, removal of a barbette seriously compromises the strength of the hull.    Plus the triples would have to fit existing barbettes, or have new barbettes installed.  Again, compromising the strength of the hull.    I have serious doubt to it being possible, let alone worth the effort.    Hence my advocating J3 instead....

My thoughts,

What year would the J3 being build then.

[1bigrich]

I've always thought J3 was a chance to do Hood 'right', and more realistic than some of the giants like K2 or K3, or L2/L3. But she was a 1921 design. By the time she would be built as a Hood replacement, technology would have advanced and the ship would be very different.

I think if there is no treaty regime, and the RN decides to standardize on the 15in gun, the early 20s would be the best time for a J3 class to enter the fleet.

Within a treaty regime, we might see something like 15A/35 if there is no Second London.

My somewhat disjointed thoughts,

[lordroel]

Feb 7, 2020 15:37:05 GMT 1bigrich said:

I've always thought J3 was a chance to do Hood 'right', and more realistic than some of the giants like K2 or K3, or L2/L3. But she was a 1921 design. By the time she would be built as a Hood replacement, technology would have advanced and the ship would be very different.

I think if there is no treaty regime, and the RN decides to standardize on the 15in gun, the early 20s would be the best time for a J3 class to enter the fleet.

Within a treaty regime, we might see something like 15A/35 if there is no Second London.

My somewhat disjointed thoughts,

But why did the British had a soft spot for Hood, would scrapping Hood be a good thing.

[1bigrich]

Feb 7, 2020 15:47:45 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 7, 2020 15:37:05 GMT 1bigrich said:

But why did the British had a soft spot for Hood, would scrapping Hood be a good thing.

Hood was the face of British seapower in the interwar era.   As the largest warship in the world, and very fast compared to the bulk of the world's capital ships, she was unmatched for most of her life.   

She was a flawed beauty, and a full rebuild would have done her good.   But as such a powerful unit, she was in demand, as were Nelson and Rodney.   As I said above, none ever got fully what they needed.  

Her loss cemented her in the British public's memory.   Had she survived the war, I think she would have been sent to the breakers with the rest of the battle fleet.   If she were replaced with new construction, I don't think she would have had such a solid place in the public's psyche.

My thoughts,

[lordroel]

Feb 7, 2020 16:33:10 GMT 1bigrich said:

Feb 7, 2020 15:47:45 GMT lordroel said:

But why did the British had a soft spot for Hood, would scrapping Hood be a good thing.

Hood was the face of British seapower in the interwar era.   As the largest warship in the world, and very fast compared to the bulk of the world's capital ships, she was unmatched for most of her life.   

She was a flawed beauty, and a full rebuild would have done her good.   But as such a powerful unit, she was in demand, as were Nelson and Rodney.   As I said above, none ever got fully what they needed.  

Her loss cemented her in the British public's memory.   Had she survived the war, I think she would have been sent to the breakers with the rest of the battle fleet.   If she were replaced with new construction, I don't think she would have had such a solid place in the public's psyche.

My thoughts,

But could Hood be scrapped and a new battlecruiser be build in here place, even if there was the Washington naval treaty in effect. 

[stevep]

Feb 7, 2020 20:17:50 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 7, 2020 16:33:10 GMT 1bigrich said:

Hood was the face of British seapower in the interwar era.   As the largest warship in the world, and very fast compared to the bulk of the world's capital ships, she was unmatched for most of her life.   

She was a flawed beauty, and a full rebuild would have done her good.   But as such a powerful unit, she was in demand, as were Nelson and Rodney.   As I said above, none ever got fully what they needed.  

Her loss cemented her in the British public's memory.   Had she survived the war, I think she would have been sent to the breakers with the rest of the battle fleet.   If she were replaced with new construction, I don't think she would have had such a solid place in the public's psyche.

My thoughts,

But could Hood be scrapped and a new battlecruiser be build in here place, even if there was the Washington naval treaty in effect. 

  For most of the time there was an absolute ban on new construction and when that lapsed new construction was limited to 35ktons maximum size which would mean a smaller ship.  Given that while she had flaws she was still more powerful than virtually the entire existing RN battle fleet it would be pointless given the limited resources to try and replace her.  1bigrich, is right that trying to convert her into a 3x3 turret set-up would be ruinously expensive but a different reconstruction, maintaining the 4x2 set up would have been a bit more practical.  Unfortunately as the newest and largest fast ship she was deemed too important to be spared for 2-3 years while such a reconstruction took place.  In hindsight it would have been better doing so but the people at the time didn't realise that.