AHC : Create an Anglo-Germano-Italo-Spanish Union before the 1400s

[genyodectes]

In a way that you believe to be the most realistic, unite the Kingdoms of Spain, England, Italy, and Germany (the HRE for the latter two) before the 1400s, bonus points if it happens before the 1200s, and even more points if it happens in between the founding of the HRE and the 1100s. How would this Union work and how would it fall apart if it falls apart and when?

[stevep]

Jan 19, 2020 15:09:19 GMT genyodectes said:

In a way that you believe to be the most realistic, unite the Kingdoms of Spain, England, Italy, and Germany (the HRE for the latter two) before the 1400s, bonus points if it happens before the 1200s, and even more points if it happens in between the founding of the HRE and the 1100s. How would this Union work and how would it fall apart if it falls apart and when?

  How far back do you want to go?  Possibly a different end to the classical period with Eastern Rome falling and the West surviving?  True several of the component areas will have different ethnically compositions, for instances modern 'England' is still likely to be Celtic among others.  If successful this could include other areas, probably a good chunk of western N Africa and say Ireland and parts of Scandinavia.

  Or do you want a later POD after those modern states start to be recognisable in their modern forms?  I notice also you exclude France from the list.  Was that accidental or do you mean to have this mega empire excluding France which would be pretty much encircled by it.

  A later POD than the western empire not falling - or possibly some Germanic king/dynasty reforming it - would be more difficult and its very difficult to see such a state not including France.

  Such a union could work in many ways.  Due to politics, its territorial extent and nature its going to break up/suffer periods of division from time to time, even without a France sized hole in it, but there is the possibility that a strong enough sense of identity could mean centripedal forces bring it back together.  Could end up with a version of China where the sense of unity is strong enough to do this but as a result its likely to be pretty conservative in many ways I fear.   Suspect you would need to avoid the rise of Christianity or alternative monotheistic religions as otherwise going to be too divisive.

  Plus its going to be pulled between its southern lands looking towards the Med, the northern regions looking possibly both west and eastwards into the Baltic and Germany looking possibly at expansion eastwards by land.

[eurofed]

Jan 19, 2020 15:09:19 GMT genyodectes said:

In a way that you believe to be the most realistic, unite the Kingdoms of Spain, England, Italy, and Germany (the HRE for the latter two) before the 1400s, bonus points if it happens before the 1200s, and even more points if it happens in between the founding of the HRE and the 1100s. How would this Union work and how would it fall apart if it falls apart and when?

With or without France? Because if we are allowed to include France in the union early in the process, the challenge gets fairly easy to accomplish. Ensure the Carolingian Empire never gets divided (the dynasty gets only one son to survive and inherit the whole package for a few generations, and optimally Charlemagne gets a more talented successor among his sons than unfit Louis the Pious, until eventually changing the succession law to hereditary primogeniture becomes easy and comes to look natural) or it soon reunifies for good if it does (Otto I expands his successful reunification of Germany and Italy to France, Otto II gets more success against the Muslims in South Italy and the Slavs in eastern Germany, and Otto III gets a much longer and more successful reign). Germany, Italy, and France are gradually consolidated into a centralized empire, and the Carolingian HRE naturally takes the lead of the Reconquista bringing it to a successful conclusion much earlier and more easily with its expanded resources. In due time, the Emperors take interest in the English succession struggles, and do what William the Conqueror did. Such an empire is also inevitably going to absorb Poland, Hungary, and northwest Africa, but that is icing on the cake.

Alternatively, the way to go seems a centralized German-Italian HRE (see my point above about a successful Ottonian dynasty, only without the early inclusion of France, or the victorious Hohenstaufen TL I posted) that accomplishes a Charles V-style dynastic union with Spain. Influence of a successful HRE indirectly causes the Reconquista to finish, and the union of the Iberian states and its dynastic merger with the HRE to occur, a century or two earlier than OTL. Even so, once such a German-Italian-Spanish union is established and stabilized, it simply makes no geopolitical sense it is going to ignore the big France-sized hole in its midst for long, the drive for a full restoration of Charlemagne's empire becomes compelling, and the French kings are going to turn hostile out of encirclement paranoia just like OTL. Without all the trouble Charles V experienced in Germany and Italy, it is almost sure this version of his empire is going to crush and conquer France, even if it has to dedicate part of its attention and resources to fight off any equivalent of the Ottomans. Once continental Western Europe is unified, England becomes a relatively simple matter of staging a successful Invincible Armada enterprise with the vast resources this empire can harness. This might happen because the Emperors got a dynastic claim on the throne of England, the English turned hostile to such a successful European hegemony according to their usual behavior, or a mix of a the above.