AHC : Gallic Empire leads to earlier feudalism

[genyodectes]

In a timeline where the Gallic empire survives, have it lead to earlier feudalism and even an HRE like system in France well Italy, Germany, and several other regions become Kingdoms in their own rights.

[stevep]

Jan 21, 2020 1:12:10 GMT genyodectes said:

In a timeline where the Gallic empire survives, have it lead to earlier feudalism and even an HRE like system in France well Italy, Germany, and several other regions become Kingdoms in their own rights.

  Interesting idea.  Would need to prevent the rise of Rome of course and there are some suggestions that the early Germans were already making inroads into Celtic lands, although have heard that disputed.  However a vast tribal loose confederation across much of N central Europe could have some interesting effects.  Would really need some dramatic improvements in communications and technology to make it more stable but could occur.

[genyodectes]

Jan 21, 2020 11:29:03 GMT stevep said:

Jan 21, 2020 1:12:10 GMT genyodectes said:

In a timeline where the Gallic empire survives, have it lead to earlier feudalism and even an HRE like system in France well Italy, Germany, and several other regions become Kingdoms in their own rights.

  Interesting idea.  Would need to prevent the rise of Rome of course and there are some suggestions that the early Germans were already making inroads into Celtic lands, although have heard that disputed.  However a vast tribal loose confederation across much of N central Europe could have some interesting effects.  Would really need some dramatic improvements in communications and technology to make it more stable but could occur.

Actually, I was talking about this gallic empire en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_Empire apologies for the confusion

[stevep]

Jan 21, 2020 12:07:16 GMT genyodectes said:

Jan 21, 2020 11:29:03 GMT stevep said:

  Interesting idea.  Would need to prevent the rise of Rome of course and there are some suggestions that the early Germans were already making inroads into Celtic lands, although have heard that disputed.  However a vast tribal loose confederation across much of N central Europe could have some interesting effects.  Would really need some dramatic improvements in communications and technology to make it more stable but could occur.

Actually, I was talking about this gallic empire en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_Empire apologies for the confusion

genyodectes,

  OK thanks.  Should have considered that. 

  I think the problem here was that the Roman identity was still very strong and virtually all the break-away factions during this period and others claimed to be the ruler of the entire empire, some of them of course actually achieving that aim.  As such even if the Gallic emperor doesn't march on Rome sooner or later someone who controls the bulk of the empire would seek to restore the 'rebel provinces'.  As such it needs the break-down of Rome for a permanent period with no claimant able to restore the empire for long enough for the idea of a unified empire to be rejected/forgotten.  I suspect that is unlikely unless possibly some religious divide, as happened after the rise of Christianity could do this.  Possibly an earlier rise of Christianity to power in the east, or a very successful Persia meaning that a rump central empire doesn't have the resources to attack the Gallic one, at least not for more than border clashes.   Possibly with the rump central empire later dividing further with say Italy and N Africa as one state and another developing in the Greek east.  In which case a lasting stability could be established.

  I did read once that Postumus's death was because he refused to allow his forces to attack into Italy because he realised that with the threat to the east he couldn't allow it to fall and that this angered some of his officers who wanted loot and prestige from such a campaign, leading to his assassination.  The Wiki link gave a different but basically similar story that after defeating a rebel he refused to allow Mainz - held by the rebel - to be sacked angering some of his subordinates.

  From what it says Postumus does seem to be a very capable commander and also possibly political leader.  If he had avoided assassination and established a lasting state it but for whatever reason never successfully invaded Italy and similarly the other claimants never conquering him then you might have lasting empire.  Whether it would have split into assorted smaller kingdoms I don't know as without the barbarian invasions there would probably still be a common sense of identity but then you could see some later invasion breaking it up, such as the Huns say, which might then lead to population movements and the identity of the Gallic empire shattering.

  I'm assuming that the Gallic empire doesn't itself conquer Italy as if that occurred whoever did that is likely to see himself [and be seen by many others] as the 'true' Roman emperor and feel obliged to seek to reunite it or at least conquer further.  Which would change the identity of the empire especially since the capital is likely to move back to Rome or even further east if very successful.

  Anyway my initial thoughts.

  Steve