1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Feb 28, 2020 16:38:21 GMT
Definitely agree. I was thinking of Dogger Bank with Lion avoiding the OTL hit so the battle continues and it goes boom plus followed by say an I class a bit later and a narrowly missed 3rd boom by something like an Harvey incident. Those losses not only call both the follies and the recently ordered Renown and Repulse into question but with Beatty dead it both gives more incentive for an investigation [since he's become a national hero] and means he's not around to cover his arse about ammo handling and the like. However something could happen earlier during the Scarborough Raid.
Was thinking there is a serious rethink and the Renown's, possibly more of them eventually emerge as proper fast battleships, using small tube boilers, and other lessons learnt to be a slightly slower but better protected Hood, possibly with more changes to the design after an ATL Jutland which goes somewhat better for the RN. Those new Renown's don't see service during WWI but would affect negotiations for any naval treaty. I'm a bit surprised at the idea that an HMS Eagle which was completed as a BB being called India as we already had a BB called Emperor of India, one of the very recent Iron Duke class. Would have thought there might be too much danger of confusion with two similar names. When I've toyed with the idea I've normally called it HMS South Africa, as the only dominion that didn't have a capital ship named after it. However could be a reason for giving it the name India. [/div] Steve, I have a low opinion of Beatty. I think there were more capable officers, but he was connected. I agree, if he's a killed, he's suddenly a national hero. But as you say, he's not around for a CYA on the BC squadron practices. On battleship India, I agree, but King George V had a number of battleships named after him. Marlborough was his title before ascending to the throne IIRC, Emperor of India was named after him and of course, KGV (of World War I then the later treaty ship as well!) and as I recall he missed Monarch by a number of days! But the RN had Canada, Erin for Ireland and Malaya, Australia and New Zealand paid for by those dominions. India would certainly be due a capital ship bearing the name. Maybe if a sixth QE is Agincourt, the ex-Sultan Osman I could be South Africa. Heh, if we're postwar with South American Race, might Argentina look at a South Dakota? Would Brazil want N3 or G3? Or in a treaty environment, maybe Argenita opts for repeat Colorados and Brazil orders a Nelson? I think a larger carrier might have benefited the RN and the FAA, but with the RAF in charge, the RN had trouble filling the carriers it had. With a couple large instead of three smaller, it might be even more of a problem. Would smaller powers like the Netherlands, Brazil,Argentina and so on also try to build more ships than they did OTL if there is no naval treaty, ore is that only for the Big Powers. They might not with ships getting so large and expensive. They did not in a treaty environment, I would think without an outside influence, they will not without a treaty. My thoughts gents, |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 28, 2020 17:24:50 GMT
They might not with ships getting so large and expensive. They did not in a treaty environment, I would think without an outside influence, they will not without a treaty. I would assume that without the treaty the bigger powers who replace their older ships with newer ships can sell their older big ships a lot free than they where when they had signed the treaty. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Feb 28, 2020 19:02:05 GMT
I would assume that without the treaty the bigger powers who replace their older ships with newer ships can sell their older big ships a lot free than they where when they had signed the treaty. Since the treaty specifically forbade the sale or gifting of ships to another power, without a treaty that might an excellent avenue for smaller navies to upgrade their major units... |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 28, 2020 19:55:56 GMT
I would assume that without the treaty the bigger powers who replace their older ships with newer ships can sell their older big ships a lot free than they where when they had signed the treaty. Since the treaty specifically forbade the sale or gifting of ships to another power, without a treaty that might an excellent avenue for smaller navies to upgrade their major units... So Lion and Tiger could be sold to the Netherlands without a problem, maybe they need some upgrading but the Netherlands has its batlecruiser which it is going to need if Japan expand its navy with the battlecruisers and battleships that they canceled due the naval treaty. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Feb 28, 2020 20:28:33 GMT
So Lion and Tiger could be sold to the Netherlands without a problem, maybe they need some upgrading but the Netherlands has its batlecruiser which it is going to need if Japan expand its navy with the battlecruisers and battleships that they canceled due the naval treaty. If you're going to get Lion, you might as well get Princess Royal as well. She'll need re-boilered eventually, but then again, they all will.... You might find this post www.tapatalk.com/groups/alltheworldsbattlecruisers/far-aft-and-faintly-alternate-history-t8725.htmlAnd the links therein of interest.... Regards, |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 28, 2020 20:38:42 GMT
So Lion and Tiger could be sold to the Netherlands without a problem, maybe they need some upgrading but the Netherlands has its batlecruiser which it is going to need if Japan expand its navy with the battlecruisers and battleships that they canceled due the naval treaty. If you're going to get Lion, you might as well get Princess Royal as well. She'll need re-boilered eventually, but then again, they all will.... You might find this post www.tapatalk.com/groups/alltheworldsbattlecruisers/far-aft-and-faintly-alternate-history-t8725.htmlAnd the links therein of interest.... Regards, Got the book as well, love it. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 29, 2020 12:13:49 GMT
Definitely agree. I was thinking of Dogger Bank with Lion avoiding the OTL hit so the battle continues and it goes boom plus followed by say an I class a bit later and a narrowly missed 3rd boom by something like an Harvey incident. Those losses not only call both the follies and the recently ordered Renown and Repulse into question but with Beatty dead it both gives more incentive for an investigation [since he's become a national hero] and means he's not around to cover his arse about ammo handling and the like. However something could happen earlier during the Scarborough Raid.
Was thinking there is a serious rethink and the Renown's, possibly more of them eventually emerge as proper fast battleships, using small tube boilers, and other lessons learnt to be a slightly slower but better protected Hood, possibly with more changes to the design after an ATL Jutland which goes somewhat better for the RN. Those new Renown's don't see service during WWI but would affect negotiations for any naval treaty. I'm a bit surprised at the idea that an HMS Eagle which was completed as a BB being called India as we already had a BB called Emperor of India, one of the very recent Iron Duke class. Would have thought there might be too much danger of confusion with two similar names. When I've toyed with the idea I've normally called it HMS South Africa, as the only dominion that didn't have a capital ship named after it. However could be a reason for giving it the name India. [/div] Steve, I have a low opinion of Beatty. I think there were more capable officers, but he was connected. I agree, if he's a killed, he's suddenly a national hero. But as you say, he's not around for a CYA on the BC squadron practices. On battleship India, I agree, but King George V had a number of battleships named after him. Marlborough was his title before ascending to the throne IIRC, Emperor of India was named after him and of course, KGV (of World War I then the later treaty ship as well!) and as I recall he missed Monarch by a number of days! But the RN had Canada, Erin for Ireland and Malaya, Australia and New Zealand paid for by those dominions. India would certainly be due a capital ship bearing the name. Maybe if a sixth QE is Agincourt, the ex-Sultan Osman I could be South Africa. Heh, if we're postwar with South American Race, might Argentina look at a South Dakota? Would Brazil want N3 or G3? Or in a treaty environment, maybe Argenita opts for repeat Colorados and Brazil orders a Nelson? I think a larger carrier might have benefited the RN and the FAA, but with the RAF in charge, the RN had trouble filling the carriers it had. With a couple large instead of three smaller, it might be even more of a problem. Would smaller powers like the Netherlands, Brazil,Argentina and so on also try to build more ships than they did OTL if there is no naval treaty, ore is that only for the Big Powers. They might not with ships getting so large and expensive. They did not in a treaty environment, I would think without an outside influence, they will not without a treaty. My thoughts gents, [/quote][/div]
With Beatty I was thinking more of his success at Heligoland Blight as well as his dashing appearance rather than his loss - in the proposed change - at Dogger Bank, although there might be some sympathy for him there.
Didn't realise George V had the title Malborough before ascending the throne but assumed the ship was named after the general. That's also what its wiki entry said, see HMS_Marlborough and the current First Lord of the Admiralty could well have had an hand in that as well.  However good point that Emperor of India is more to the title/man than the state.
I'm not sure that the southern cone nations could afford a post war ship design as large as the G3 or S Dakota. They might want one but I suspect their appetite would exceed the capacity of their stomach, or in this case their budget. Possibly something like a Colorado or some British equivalent designed for them by one of the British shipyards. Very likely with 16" guns and good speed but less armour from the history of sales to the region. Unless say the US or, more likely possibly Japan is willing to complete and sell a ship they can no longer afford to complete. However given how large the latter designs are compared to anything else not only could I see the buyer being unable to maintain it but also possibly some reluctance to sell. Especially since if say Argentina or Brazil got such a large and powerful ship it puts more pressure on Rome and Paris for something similar.
For a couple of G3 based CVs the RAF control would still be a problem but it might also highlight the issue, especially if the RN can point out "we're got those two carriers but the RAF won't allow them to be fully operated". Also such a big design is likely to give experience in handling larger forces and speedier turn around of a/c. Your probably likely with the British dependence on international trade and very large MS force to have the next class being much smaller and slower for trade protection and raider hunting but a lot could happen.
Would agree that the Netherlands and other such powers, including probably the southern cone nations are more likely to get modified hand me downs or new ships constructed more in the ~30-40kton displacement at largest. Both because the big powers won't want the largest ships to be spread around and because of the costs of such ships. In terms of not just their purchase costs but also maintenance and things like harbour size and the like. To operate a G3 or S Dakota class in say the DEI would probably need a hell of a lot of spending on base facilities for instance.
Steve
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markp
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Post by markp on Mar 1, 2020 0:52:01 GMT
The smaller powers were not under treaty limitations so they cold have built anything the wanted in OTL. Any additional builds by them would not have changed their position with the major powers so why bother. The South American arms race would have had no reason to intensify nor would the balance of power in that region have been changed by having larger USN/RN/IJN fleets sailing the worlds oceans.
Mark
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 1, 2020 12:22:53 GMT
The smaller powers were not under treaty limitations so they cold have built anything the wanted in OTL. Any additional builds by them would not have changed their position with the major powers so why bother. The South American arms race would have had no reason to intensify nor would the balance of power in that region have been changed by having larger USN/RN/IJN fleets sailing the worlds oceans. Mark
Mark
Within limits but the key point was all those smaller powers tended to rely on buying capital ships and often smaller units from the major naval powers. This was blocked by the treaty so effectively ended any real capital ship production for those powers.
I think the initial argument with the southern cone nations was that if Chile got both their BBs back from Britain, i.e. Eagle not converted to a CV and completed as a sister to the Canada this might trigger a desire by Argentina and Brazil to buy new ships. I suspect there wouldn't be a capacity for top level capital ships, simply because of their expense, in operating as much as purchasing but it might be possible to see something more the size of an upgraded QE type say being considered by them.
Steve
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cj
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Post by cj on Nov 8, 2023 5:42:33 GMT
Dose anyone have any numbers to back up the idea japan couldn't afford the 8-8 program? Because it seems to just be considered entable here but why? The Japanese parliament seemed fine with the orders (and had already passed a bill to fund it) japan was in a economic boom and even the negotiators at the WNT weren't worried about the cost of the 8-8 program (like of Britain wasn't worried about the cost of the g3-n3 program) but that even completing the program wouldn't help due to the us out biulding japan anyway (with japan biulding 2 a year while the us was biulding 4)
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 8, 2023 12:24:57 GMT
Dose anyone have any numbers to back up the idea japan couldn't afford the 8-8 program? Because it seems to just be considered entable here but why? The Japanese parliament seemed fine with the orders (and had already passed a bill to fund it) japan was in a economic boom and even the negotiators at the WNT weren't worried about the cost of the 8-8 program (like of Britain wasn't worried about the cost of the g3-n3 program) but that even completing the program wouldn't help due to the us out biulding japan anyway (with japan biulding 2 a year while the us was biulding 4)
Rule VII: It is okay to respond to old threads that are 90 days old, but be aware that threads older than 180 days (labeled as Very Old threads) and 365 days (labelled as Extreme Old thread) might raise the mod attention if there is no substantial new contribution made in that thread, such as to extend a timeline, otherwise make a new thread under the same name but add a "II" or next available Roman Numeral to the thread title ore PM a mod if it is okay to post in it. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 8, 2023 13:19:47 GMT
Now that the formalities are addressed, Japanese GDP (millions of 1990 USD per Angus Maddison) 1918: 91573 1919: 100959 1920: 94654 1921: 105043 1922: 104757 WNT negotiations took place from November 1921 through February 1922, or in the 1921/22 financial year. That wasn't during an economic boom; the previous year had seen a temporary recovery from the 1919/20 world recession. Regarding Japanese budgets, pp 17-24 of this pdf will be informative: www.cna.org/reports/2003/D0007249.A1.pdf The other factor to take into account is the 1923 Great Kanto Earthquake which, although it doesn't make so much of a dent 'on the papers', it did have a rather particular effect on naval construction, as well as the necessary opportunity costs. |
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However good point that Emperor of India is more to the title/man than the state. 