stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 21, 2020 10:54:47 GMT
The USAAF should have deployed 1 ore 2 fighter squadrons, leave the B-17s at home, which would allow the US Navy to send its fighters and dive/torpedo bombers to join the fight against the Japanese carriers while the USAAF could defend Midway. Remember lordroel, we're an Air Corps dedicated to the manned bomber, especially the high-level, heavy bomber, just like the RAF!!
AIGF,
Arguably the biggest mistake both nations made in WWII in terms of the resource sunk into strategic bombing compared to the returns, which were pretty much minimal until late 44.
I knew the sub torpedoes had serious multiple problems but hadn't considered it carried over to the torpedo bombers.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 21, 2020 11:03:30 GMT
Remember lordroel, we're an Air Corps dedicated to the manned bomber, especially the high-level, heavy bomber, just like the RAF!! AIGF, Arguably the biggest mistake both nations made in WWII in terms of the resource sunk into strategic bombing compared to the returns, which were pretty much minimal until late 44. I knew the sub torpedoes had serious multiple problems but hadn't considered it carried over to the torpedo bombers.
The Wikipedia article about the Mark 13 torpedo
Seems that the MK 13 had some major flaws including a tendency to veer left, chronic depth failures, weak propellers that could not withstand the shock of water entry, and an exploder mechanism that sometimes armed in air. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 21, 2020 11:30:04 GMT
Arguably the biggest mistake both nations made in WWII in terms of the resource sunk into strategic bombing compared to the returns, which were pretty much minimal until late 44. I knew the sub torpedoes had serious multiple problems but hadn't considered it carried over to the torpedo bombers.
The Wikipedia article about the Mark 13 torpedo
Seems that the MK 13 had some major flaws including a tendency to veer left, chronic depth failures, weak propellers that could not withstand the shock of water entry, and an exploder mechanism that sometimes armed in air.
Ugh! That sounds like it managed to add even more problem to what the sub/ship based one already had.
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 21, 2020 11:30:38 GMT
Arguably the biggest mistake both nations made in WWII in terms of the resource sunk into strategic bombing compared to the returns, which were pretty much minimal until late 44.
I knew the sub torpedoes had serious multiple problems but hadn't considered it carried over to the torpedo bombers.
Steve,
IIRC, there were studies that showed given payload and sortie rate, Mosquitoes could deliver more bombs more accurately over a given time than Lancasters.
On the torpedoes I wouldn't say 'carried over'. The Mk 13s problems were different from the Mk 14. As lordroel's post below and Senior Chief's post above indicated, the Mk 13 had its own issues. The Mk 14 on the other hand had issues directly traceable to the Mk 6 exploder and the ridiculous testing standard used when it was developed. The Mk 14 ran deep, it's magnetic detector was flawed because of an incomplete understanding of magnetic fields, and its firing pin was too heavy. On high angle impacts, it wouldn't travel far enough to set the torpedo off. Ad in Admiral Ralph Christie, who was the father of the Mark 6, later became commander of US subs in Freemantle and forbade any modifications to the torpedoes. He also carried out a vendetta against submarine skippers who criticized his baby. 'Fiasco' and 'debacle' don't go far enough. "Fuster Cluck" is what we would say on American broadcast radio....
See this post of mine over on Stuart Slade's HPCA warfare forum
"Carried over" is entirely appropriate to describe the Mk 15 (destroyer/surface) torpedo, as it was developed from the Mk 14 submarine torpedo. But I digress...
Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 21, 2020 11:55:12 GMT
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jun 21, 2020 13:20:27 GMT
Well said, Senior Chief.
Yup, if the USN had an Achilles Heel in the interwar period, it was torpedo development. I've pointed out over on the BC board that the whole reason we have a victory at Balikpapan was the old US Four-Pipers were using MK 8 torpedoes that actually worked! Had their more modern counterparts been present, they would have had the Mk 15, which inherited legions of problems from the submarine Mk 14 torpedo....
As an aside, I just finished a book called "My Carrier War' by Norman E Berg. He was supposed to be a dive-bomber pilot but wound up in Avengers. He says that his training included glide bombing in the Avenger, and when his air group off Chenango deployed to Guadalcanal, they bombed several targets on New Georgia and Bouganville, and mined a harbor on Bouganville. I'm planning on posting a review of the book on the BC board in the near future.
Regards, Thanks for the kind words 1bigrich but here I am an E-3 Seaman. Like all E-3s I have a lot to learn especially about Alternate-timelines. I must say I am impressed by the quality of this site and the knowledge and civility of the posters.
BK BK
I read A Dawn Like Thunder: The True Story of Torpedo Squadron Eight
by Robert J. Mrazek
No doubt those young men knew their Torps were defective but not how defective.
The fact the brass decided to spare one of the TBD crewmen, the bombardier, says it all. They were not expected to come back.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 21, 2020 13:34:41 GMT
Well said, Senior Chief.
Yup, if the USN had an Achilles Heel in the interwar period, it was torpedo development. I've pointed out over on the BC board that the whole reason we have a victory at Balikpapan was the old US Four-Pipers were using MK 8 torpedoes that actually worked! Had their more modern counterparts been present, they would have had the Mk 15, which inherited legions of problems from the submarine Mk 14 torpedo.... As an aside, I just finished a book called "My Carrier War' by Norman E Berg. He was supposed to be a dive-bomber pilot but wound up in Avengers. He says that his training included glide bombing in the Avenger, and when his air group off Chenango deployed to Guadalcanal, they bombed several targets on New Georgia and Bouganville, and mined a harbor on Bouganville. I'm planning on posting a review of the book on the BC board in the near future.
Regards, here I am an E-3 Seaman. Like all E-3s I have a lot to learn especially about Alternate-timelines. I must say I am impressed by the quality of this site and the knowledge and civility of the posters. Well then oscssw , congratulations on being a E-3 then, only 24 post to go before you become a Petty Officer 2nd Class.  I wonder, why no airfield on Sand island.    The did build one after the battle, but a second airfield could have help with more fighters and dive/torpedo bombers.  |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 21, 2020 13:52:02 GMT
Thanks for the kind words 1bigrich but here I am an E-3 Seaman. Like all E-3s I have a lot to learn especially about Alternate-timelines. I must say I am impressed by the quality of this site and the knowledge and civility of the posters.
BK BK
I read A Dawn Like Thunder: The True Story of Torpedo Squadron Eight
by Robert J. Mrazek
No doubt those young men knew their Torps were defective but not how defective.
The fact the brass decided to spare one of the TBD crewmen, the bombardier, says it all. They were not expected to come back.
Senior,
Yup, lordroel has a great community here. I had lurked here for quite a while, but finally decided to register and 'get in the game'
Your comment on alternate timelines makes me think of a friend who is an American Civil War buff. He read Gingrich's and Forstchen's Gettysburg book and told me 'For this to work, Lee has to not act like Lee and Meade has to not act like Meade." I think this was one of his first forays into an alternate history, and I told him, 'That's exactly why it is an alternate time line. The whole point is what if something changes, and where do those changes lead?' over on the BC board which had a lot to say about Torpedo 8, and in [/a] Norm Berg's book, he frequently brings up Torpedo 8, and the fact they were wiped out without fighter cover. [/div] Regards, |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 21, 2020 14:08:14 GMT
I would think because of the need to quarter the Marine Defense Battalion. A second airfield is going to take up a lot of Sand Island's real estate, as your images above show. Once the Battle of Midway is over, there's really no need for a second airfield, and the SeaBees have other priorities in the Pacific. The postwar construction was probably because of the need for longer runways.
As an aside Evans Carlson's Second Marine Raider Battalion was on Midway to repel the invasion. His men took a tip from the PT Boat crews stationed there; they carried 14 inch (35.6cm) screwdrivers that were sharpened for use in hand-to-hand combat.
More on the Marine Raiders here
Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 21, 2020 14:13:18 GMT
I would think because of the need to quarter the Marine Defense Battalion. A second airfield is going to take up a lot of Sand Island's real estate, as your images above show. Once the Battle of Midway is over, there's really no need for a second airfield, and the SeaBees have other priorities in the Pacific. The postwar construction was probably because of the need for longer runways.
As an aside Evans Carlson's Second Marine Raider Battalion was on Midway to repel the invasion. His men took a tip from the PT Boat crews stationed there; they carried 14 inch (35.6cm) screwdrivers that were sharpened for use in hand-to-hand combat.
More on the Marine Raiders hereRegards, A Japanese landing on Midway would be as worst as the Battle of Tarawa of 1943, but now it will be the Japanese who need to claim the island and the Americans defending it. Also here is the Japanese Story of the Battle of Midway |
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