Could the Finns and Germans have taken Leningrad?

[stevep]

Aug 25, 2020 11:36:10 GMT EwellHolmes said:

Aug 25, 2020 11:15:33 GMT stevep said:

  Doesn't that assume that, if they managed such a target, they could actually ultilise such resources.  Between the local resistance and the appalling incompetence and infighting of the Nazis that does seem rather dubious that they could obtain more than a fraction of the regions resources and as other areas show their more likely to go for inefficient short term looting than really seeking to gain more than possibly raw materials from the region.

  IIRC you said something about getting me access to Tooze's The Wages of Destruction a little while back?  Sorry I never got back to you but I definitely would be interested, although a bit pressed for time.  From what I've heard from other people it gives a lot of details of the sheer incompetence and brutal destructiveness of Nazi economic policies which is one of the reasons I have the doubts mentioned above.

  Not sure there is the basis for a separate peace between the allies and the Nazis given the character of the latter.  Plus by the time in 44 the Germans are able to deploy more manpower from the east the allies will have some controlling positions from which to apply their air superiority and there is always the hope at least, which we know will be fulfilled, of the atomic bomb.

  Steve

PS  The comment you made earlier about Leningrad having 10% of Soviet industry.  Under what conditions does that apply?  Possibly I could see its peace time capacity reaching that sort of level in say parts of 41-42 while the Soviets lost a hell of a lot in the Ukraine especially and more was disrupted by the moving of industrial facilities eastwards but I can see that only being a temporary thing while the Soviets reorganise.  Also of course since the city was besieged from late 41 to early 43 and effectively to early 44 any military production within the city is largely going to be confined to it and won't affect the wider war.

Not so much as using the local resources but able to put their own to better use elsewhere; the Finns made an offensive against the Murmansk Railway line conditional on the status of Leningrad for example. Romanian divisions backed up by German take divisions would also mean the Don River gets cleared in August-October of any Soviet beachheads across it, making any offensive against the flanks of 6th Army impossible.

I'll send you a copy of the Tooze book; any others you want?

  Just that one for the moment.  Have downloaded it.  Don't have the time/inclination to read as much as I used to.

[Middlesex_Toffeeman]

I don't know if it *could* have happened but it would likely have led to the collapse of Russia and Finnish control over Eastern Karelia.

As I said on some other threads any attempts to ethnically cleanse Karelia of Russians will likely be called off as pointless and Finland will just get a sizable ethnically Russian population which will likely be increased by refugees from German-ruled Russia.