Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

[lordroel]

Dec 28, 2021 13:42:22 GMT ssgtc said:

The RAAF has also agreed to try and distract the IAF by flying "training" stories out of Papua New Guinea with their F-86s while the carrier makes her run into Hollandia.

Fully armed and loaded "training" stories i hope.

[ssgtc]

February 18, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, Netherlands

Karel Doorman's air group, along with the planes of 323 Squadron, are craned aboard the aircraft carrier. While the air group would normally fly out to their ship and trap aboard the carrier, the addition of the dozen Hawker Hunters tied down on every open inch of her flight deck made that impossible. Doorman will deploy to New Guinea with ten Grumman TBF Avengers and fourteen Hawker Sea Hawks with two Sikorsky S-55 Helicopters providing ASW and SAR. Though the Sea Hawks are considered obsolete, they are newly equipped with American Sidewinder infrared guided air-to-air missiles.

An urgent request to the United States for an emergency purchase of Douglas AD Skyraiders or A4D Skyhawks is declined, as the United States Navy does not have enough spare airframes to part with and still meet their own operational needs considering the increasing tensions in the South West Pacific. The United States does offer to provide a squadron's worth of FJ-4Bs to the Netherlands as that aircraft type is being retired from the fleet. But after looking at the weight and performance of the aircraft, the Royal Netherlands Navy is forced to decline, as Karel Doorman would be unable to launch the Fury with a useful bomb load.

Several objections are made to deploying the Doorman with strike aircraft that first saw service in World War Two, but political considerations overrule the operational concerns. The Netherlands has to be seen to respond to Indonesian aggression in the region, and the best, and indeed only, way to do so was by deploying a carrier battle group to the region.

[lordroel]

Dec 29, 2021 15:14:08 GMT ssgtc said:

February 18, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, Netherlands

Karel Doorman's air group, along with the planes of 323 Squadron, are craned aboard the aircraft carrier. While the air group would normally fly out to their ship and trap aboard the carrier, the addition of the dozen Hawker Hunters tied down on every open inch of her flight deck made that impossible. Doorman will deploy to New Guinea with ten Grumman TBF Avengers and fourteen Hawker Sea Hawks with two Sikorsky S-55 Helicopters providing ASW and SAR. Though the Sea Hawks are considered obsolete, they are newly equipped with American Sidewinder infrared guided air-to-air missiles.

An urgent request to the United States for an emergency purchase of Douglas AD Skyraiders or A4D Skyhawks is declined, as the United States Navy does not have enough spare airframes to part with and still meet their own operational needs considering the increasing tensions in the South West Pacific. The United States does offer to provide a squadron's worth of FJ-4Bs to the Netherlands as that aircraft type is being retired from the fleet. But after looking at the weight and performance of the aircraft, the Royal Netherlands Navy is forced to decline, as Karel Doorman would be unable to launch the Fury with a useful bomb load.

Several objections are made to deploying the Doorman with strike aircraft that first saw service in World War Two, but political considerations overrule the operational concerns. The Netherlands has to be seen to respond to Indonesian aggression in the region, and the best, and indeed only, way to do so was by deploying a carrier battle group to the region.

Damm, the A4D Skyhawks would look good in Netherlands colors.

[ssgtc]

February 20, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, Netherlands

After the inevitable delays, the HNLMS Karel Doorman departs Den Helder Naval Base bound for the Pacific. Along with the Doorman, the Royal Netherlands Navy was also sending the light cruiser De Ruyter and the Friesland class destroyers Limburg, Groningen, Drenthe and Utrecht. The light cruiser would provide heavy shore bombardment and anti-surface firepower if needed while the four destroyers would use their 120mm guns to provide anti-air defense, along with their heavy anti-submarine armament to defend the carrier from underwater attacks.

After much discussion, it was decided to send the carrier around the Cape of Good Hope instead of through the Suez Canal. Serious concerns had been aired that the Egyptians may refuse them use of the canal. However, the added distance would cause issues with the endurance of the ships of the force. A decision had to be made with regards to the speed at which the task force would sail.

The Doorman had a normal cruising speed of fourteen knots, and at that speed, she could sail easily steam from Amsterdam to Fremantle nonstop. However, the voyage would take more than thirty days at that speed. Several options had been considered to solve the issue. The first option that had been brought up was to steam at eighteen knots, make a port visit at Cape Town in South Africa to top off the ships of the task force, then steam at twenty-five knots to Fremantle. Including the twenty-four hour stop in Cape Town, the task force could reach Australia in twenty-three days.

The second option would be to employ the turbine tanker Mijndrecht, which the Navy had been planning to charter anyway for the goodwill cruise to the United States, and use her as an underway replenishment ship. The task force could then sail at twenty-five knots all the way to Fremantle, only slowing to conduct refueling operations, and reach the Southwest Pacific in only twenty days.

Ultimately, operational considerations won out and the ships would steam to Cape Town in South Africa first, followed by a a high speed transit to Fremantle. The primary reason for the decision was concern over Indonesian submarines in the area. Indonesia had recently purchased several Whiskey class boats from the Soviet Union and the first had just entered service. By sailing first to Cape Town, it would allow the two Cannon class ships that had deployed on the thirteenth time to sanitize the approaches to Fremantle and join up with the carrier after to improve her anti-submarine defenses even further.

As an added precaution, the tanker Mijndrecht was also hired to sail with the task force to Fremantle to ensure none of the destroyers would run dry on fuel during the high speed transit. The entire task force would arrive in Fremantle on March fifteenth.

[ssgtc]

Dec 29, 2021 15:20:03 GMT lordroel said:

Dec 29, 2021 15:14:08 GMT ssgtc said:

February 18, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, Netherlands

Karel Doorman's air group, along with the planes of 323 Squadron, are craned aboard the aircraft carrier. While the air group would normally fly out to their ship and trap aboard the carrier, the addition of the dozen Hawker Hunters tied down on every open inch of her flight deck made that impossible. Doorman will deploy to New Guinea with ten Grumman TBF Avengers and fourteen Hawker Sea Hawks with two Sikorsky S-55 Helicopters providing ASW and SAR. Though the Sea Hawks are considered obsolete, they are newly equipped with American Sidewinder infrared guided air-to-air missiles.

An urgent request to the United States for an emergency purchase of Douglas AD Skyraiders or A4D Skyhawks is declined, as the United States Navy does not have enough spare airframes to part with and still meet their own operational needs considering the increasing tensions in the South West Pacific. The United States does offer to provide a squadron's worth of FJ-4Bs to the Netherlands as that aircraft type is being retired from the fleet. But after looking at the weight and performance of the aircraft, the Royal Netherlands Navy is forced to decline, as Karel Doorman would be unable to launch the Fury with a useful bomb load.

Several objections are made to deploying the Doorman with strike aircraft that first saw service in World War Two, but political considerations overrule the operational concerns. The Netherlands has to be seen to respond to Indonesian aggression in the region, and the best, and indeed only, way to do so was by deploying a carrier battle group to the region.

Damm, the A4D Skyhawks would look good in Netherlands colors.

They would, but the USN was just introducing them into service at the time as well and they really wanted to phase out the Fury from their air groups. They can't do that if they transfer an entire squadron of Skyhawks to the Netherlands. Plus, lets be honest, would you really want your pilots going straight from Avengers to Skyhawks with minimal training and experience?

[lordroel]

Dec 29, 2021 15:25:39 GMT ssgtc said:

Dec 29, 2021 15:20:03 GMT lordroel said:

Damm, the A4D Skyhawks would look good in Netherlands colors.

They would, but the USN was just introducing them into service at the time as well and they really wanted to phase out the Fury from their air groups. They can't do that if they transfer an entire squadron of Skyhawks to the Netherlands. Plus, lets be honest, would you really want your pilots going straight from Avengers to Skyhawks with minimal training and experience?

No, but at least the Sea Hawks have Sidewinder infrared guided air-to-air missiles, so that is something.

[ssgtc]

Dec 29, 2021 15:28:40 GMT lordroel said:

Dec 29, 2021 15:25:39 GMT ssgtc said:

They would, but the USN was just introducing them into service at the time as well and they really wanted to phase out the Fury from their air groups. They can't do that if they transfer an entire squadron of Skyhawks to the Netherlands. Plus, lets be honest, would you really want your pilots going straight from Avengers to Skyhawks with minimal training and experience?

No, but at least the Sea Hawks have Sidewinder infrared guided air-to-air missiles, so that is something.

It is, but these are AIM-9B models. Not exactly a world beater. The "B" was primarily intended to be an anti-bomber weapon. It could be used against fighters, but it wouldn't be very effective. Still better than nothing though.

[lordroel]

Dec 29, 2021 15:31:15 GMT ssgtc said:

Dec 29, 2021 15:28:40 GMT lordroel said:

No, but at least the Sea Hawks have Sidewinder infrared guided air-to-air missiles, so that is something.

It is, but these are AIM-9B models. Not exactly a world beater. The "B" was primarily intended to be an anti-bomber weapon. It could be used against fighters, but it wouldn't be very effective. Still better than nothing though.

ssgtc , here is good website, related to Doorman and here travels, has a lot of pictures: Smaldeel 5

[ssgtc]

Dec 29, 2021 15:36:09 GMT lordroel said:

Dec 29, 2021 15:31:15 GMT ssgtc said:

It is, but these are AIM-9B models. Not exactly a world beater. The "B" was primarily intended to be an anti-bomber weapon. It could be used against fighters, but it wouldn't be very effective. Still better than nothing though.

ssgtc , here is good website, related to Doorman and here travels, has a lot of pictures: Smaldeel 5

Very nice find! Thank you.

[lordroel]

Dec 29, 2021 16:19:10 GMT ssgtc said:

Dec 29, 2021 15:36:09 GMT lordroel said:

ssgtc , here is good website, related to Doorman and here travels, has a lot of pictures: Smaldeel 5

Very nice find! Thank you.

Is in dutch but if you use Google translate it is a treasure trove.

[La Rouge Beret]

I remember looking closely at the FJ 4 as well, but she's too much bird for a Majestic class carrier. However, the FJ 2 and 3 iirc could do so, but the F9F Cougar was a better fit with superior range, load out & speed. So they would be on my theoretical wish list, along with AEW Skyraiders or Gannets. Was there an AEW version of the Avenger that could be loaded?

[ssgtc]

Dec 29, 2021 20:27:45 GMT La Rouge Beret said:

I remember looking closely at the FJ 4 as well, but she's too much bird for a Majestic class carrier. However, the FJ 2 and 3 iirc could do so, but the F9F Cougar was a better fit with superior range, load out & speed. So they would be on my theoretical wish list, along with AEW Skyraiders or Gannets. Was there an AEW version of the Avenger that could be loaded?

There was. From what I can find, Doorman did have AEW Avengers as part of her air group no later than 1960. So I'm assuming that she has at least a flight of them onboard

[La Rouge Beret]

You know a tl where the Dutch successfully use their carrier to defend Netherlands New Guinea would be fun to write. Plus the butterflies would be enormous, maybe they'd operate another Invincible class in the 70s to replace their Majestic.


Hmmm I might put that idea in the back pocket for later.

[lordroel]

Dec 30, 2021 0:10:34 GMT La Rouge Beret said:

You know a tl where the Dutch successfully use their carrier to defend Netherlands New Guinea would be fun to write. Plus the butterflies would be enormous, maybe they'd operate another Invincible class in the 70s to replace their Majestic.

If the carrier survives the battle that is.

[stevep]

Dec 30, 2021 0:10:34 GMT La Rouge Beret said:

You know a tl where the Dutch successfully use their carrier to defend Netherlands New Guinea would be fun to write. Plus the butterflies would be enormous, maybe they'd operate another Invincible class in the 70s to replace their Majestic.


Hmmm I might put that idea in the back pocket for later.

  That would definitely be interesting, especially if it lead to closer co-operation with Australia and the UK against Indonesian aggression.  Had the Dutch given up some of the other regions such as the South Moluccas area - remember protests about that in the 1970's IIRC.  Or possible as a result of a referendum Dutch west Guinea joins with Papua New Guinea?