archibald
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The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
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Post by archibald on Aug 22, 2020 14:10:38 GMT
Onyx... my sister best friend had a cat with that name. My niece, aged 4, decided "Onyx" was too hard to pronounce and turned it into "Monique" (Monica, but in french it is a much less cool name than in english). My sister nearly died of laughter.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 22, 2020 14:49:50 GMT
Onyx... my sister best friend had a cat with that name. My niece, aged 4, decided "Onyx" was too hard to pronounce and turned it into "Monique" (Monica, but in french it is a much less cool name than in english). My sister nearly died of laughter. Sorry to have derail you thread a little bit.
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archibald
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The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
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Post by archibald on Aug 22, 2020 17:17:44 GMT
Nope, really - it's me (and my thread LMAO).
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 22, 2020 17:19:39 GMT
Nope, really - it's me (and my thread LMAO). So are we going to see more divers life and some die in this TL.
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archibald
Ensign
The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
Posts: 359
Likes: 364
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Post by archibald on Aug 22, 2020 18:04:11 GMT
There were few deaths since 1980 - Patrick Depailler: crashed his Alfa Romeo in private practice, died instantly - Gilles Villeneuve - Riccardo Paletti (one months appart in May and June 1982: that season is hauntingly similar to 1994) - Elio de Angelis, May 1986 - Ayrton Senna and Ratzenberger infamous back to back deaths at Imola 1994 - poor Jules Bianchi, 2014 And that's it...
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I have to say, this TL will stop with the coming of Schumacher, 1991-94. Too much butterflies plus the guy (like Hamilton) is kind of F1 Terminator.
To me the "golden era" of F1 started at Monaco 1984 (June 9, 1984 - Senna and Bellof huge breakthrough) and ended with Senna death on May 1, 1994.
Exactly a decade.
That's very decade, I want to make it even more crazy. It is a metter of improving the fates of some OTL pilots while improving the fortunes of that decade "top teams". Ferrari, McLaren, Williams are rather "untounchable".
Benetton was on the way up from 1986, Brabham and Lotus went down. Tyrrell, March, Jordan (later) floated in the middle.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 22, 2020 18:29:33 GMT
So i was doing some searching as i wanted to now how the F1 cars look like in 1985 and found this. ![](https://i.pinimg.com/564x/d2/b9/a8/d2b9a8a0d30296fa0d3e5cac41f187af.jpg) So am i strange that from all the teams i like the Zakspeed 841: ![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Zakspeed_841_Dr._Jonathan_Palmer.jpg) And the McLaren MP4/2B, the most, is that due that driving as a giant smoke advertisement. ![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a9/68/87/a9688765f497492c7bd19a4e7878ab01.jpg)
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archibald
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The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
Posts: 359
Likes: 364
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Post by archibald on Aug 22, 2020 19:10:25 GMT
See that Lola THL-1 ? it has a truly amazing story. In 1984 Carl Haas, the supreme king of Indycar (Mario Andretti boss !)... created a F1 team. And mind you, to design the car he hired three very smart aerodynamicists and engineers.
Nothing less than
- Neil Oatley (designed, later, Prost and Senna McLAren that crushed any competitor from 1988 to 1993)
- Adrian Newey (designed the 1991 - 1997 Williams that won everything) - Ross Brawn (designed later the 1993 - 1995 Benettons - Schumacher lethal weapon, and later the Ferraris) This mean the Haas car had, kind of, DNA from all three (later) cars that crushed F1 all the way from 1988 to 2004, clinching a bazillon of victories and, well, every single championship. Unbelievable. He got the THREE F1 genius working for him ! Try that in the 90's and get instantly bankrupt. But in 1985 they were youngsters and so far less expensive... Alas, while the car was good (and with such astonishing DNA, it certainly was !!), the team had a lot of troubles and folded out late 1986. Carl Haas returned to Indycar and that's how three super-geniuses got free to go to McLaren, Williams and Benetton (later).
And so what happened to the teams, the cars and their Ford V6 turbo engines ?
Ecclestone, once again... with Brabham in trouble with BMW, late 1986 he bought the Haas team to get his ugly hands on their Ford engine. The Haas team was pissed off at his move, so they phoned Ford in Detroit and told them "Screw Ecclestone. Send your engine to Benetton !"
And so the Haas team send their Ford engine to Benetton, screwing Ecclestone... the year was 1987, and Benetton-Ford was born.
Remarquably, it lasted until 1995 when Schumacher wanted the Renault V10.
Hence that Lola-Haas team has been forgotten yet quite important in F1 history. And since my story essentially starts as an Ecclestone-screw... his buying of Haas late 1986 will have all kind of interesting ripples ITTL.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 22, 2020 19:17:11 GMT
Carl Haas, the supreme king of Indycar (Mario Andretti boss !)... created a F1 team. Reading the name Carl Haas i immediately thought about the current Haas F1 team and its current owner Gene Haas being related, seems they only share a name.
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archibald
Ensign
The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
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Post by archibald on Aug 22, 2020 19:21:36 GMT
Yep - unrelated.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 22, 2020 19:27:52 GMT
There were few deaths since 1980 - Patrick Depailler: crashed his Alfa Romeo in private practice, died instantly - Gilles Villeneuve - Riccardo Paletti (one months appart in May and June 1982: that season is hauntingly similar to 1994) - Elio de Angelis, May 1986 - Ayrton Senna and Ratzenberger infamous back to back deaths at Imola 1994 - poor Jules Bianchi, 2014 And that's it...
------------------------
I have to say, this TL will stop with the coming of Schumacher, 1991-94. Too much butterflies plus the guy (like Hamilton) is kind of F1 Terminator.
To me the "golden era" of F1 started at Monaco 1984 (June 9, 1984 - Senna and Bellof huge breakthrough) and ended with Senna death on May 1, 1994.
Exactly a decade. That's very decade, I want to make it even more crazy. It is a metter of improving the fates of some OTL pilots while improving the fortunes of that decade "top teams". Ferrari, McLaren, Williams are rather "untounchable".
Benetton was on the way up from 1986, Brabham and Lotus went down. Tyrrell, March, Jordan (later) floated in the middle.
Could Senna also be a F1 terminator if he had lived ore would Schumacher have something to say about that.
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kyng
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Post by kyng on Aug 23, 2020 0:06:59 GMT
I love this so far! It's great to see an F1 timeline that isn't the typical "What if Ayrton Senna survived Imola 1994?". While that's an interesting question in its own right, there's way more to F1 alternate history than just that. Good to hear Elio de Angelis will survive here. It's easy to forget the extent to which he held his own against Senna and Mansell in the first half of the 1980s, and I do wonder how he would have done had he lived (I could easily see him being a Championship contender in the late 1980s and early 1990s, until he retires some time around 1994-95). Stefan Bellof would perhaps be similar: it's a real shame we never saw much of him ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) .
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archibald
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The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
Posts: 359
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Post by archibald on Aug 23, 2020 6:22:19 GMT
Many thanks ! you are welcome.
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archibald
Ensign
The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
Posts: 359
Likes: 364
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Post by archibald on Aug 24, 2020 7:19:56 GMT
And now, ladies and gentlemen... the butterfly effect is in motion.
Mosport, Canada, August 11 1985
«Bernie ? » Brabham pilot Marc Surer was surprised to see his boss (and F1 iron hand) in the paddock. But Ecclestone was there. For some time he had grown more and more interested in F1 most dangerous rivals, as far as TV rights went : Le Mans, and Indianapolis, read, Group C and Indycar.
«I like Group C so much. Endurance, Le Mans – I need the different feeling. Do you know next year I itend to drive one of these exciting monster Groupe B rally cars ? I just have an offer from Ford for a test drive of their RS-2200... »
Ecclestone sighed. Rally, Group C, F1 – Surer was really the last of its kind, an era of the 70's that now drawing to a close. There were more and more resistance from the F1 teams to let their pilots risks their lives in Group C, not even mentionning Indycar, but Rally ? WTF ?
Ecclestone had no time to remind Surer he was first and foremost a F1 AND Brabham pilot, becausethe Swiss team mate brought back their Porsche 956 to a very unexpected pit stop. Ecclestone watched as another F1 pilot, damn it – discussed with Surer.
«Something wrong with the car, they are checking it. Maybe it was the goddam corvette that hit me... what, you want to take my place ? Are you sure? I was to make that first relay... ok, ok, if that's really what you want... I'll drive in two or three hours. Take care of yourself, please.»
Manfred Winkelhock and Bernie Ecclestone watched Marc Surer driving the 956 out of the Mosport stands. Winkelhock found himself mostly alone with Ecclestone, and a little embarrassed. His own experience of F1 had not exactly been a happy one, his team was no Brabham by any mean...
And all off sudden, all hell broke lose. There had been an accident. A bad one. Ecclestone and Winkelhock hearts froze in horror.
It was Surer.
August 30, 1985
Enough was enough.
Bernie Ecclestone was furious. François Hesnault, first. His successor Marc Surer – two pilots in the space of six months.
And now, Zakspeed Jonathan Palmer, the good doctor of Formula One. Crashed again in a fucking Porsche 956, down for the count with severe foot and ankles inuries.
Enough was enough.
Bernie Ecclestone took his phone. Tyrrell, first. Then Arrows, then the others. Enough is enough. Formula 1 is already dangerous enough, no way pilots added further risk driving in rally or Le Mans or elsewhere.
Spa Francorchamps. Same day There was a knock on the motorhome door. Thierry Boutsen, Belgium best F1 pilot since legendary Jacky Ixck, was standing there, his face like a tombstone. Stefan Bellof, Germany best hope since Wolfganf von Trips, wondered what the fuck had happened.
Another accident ?
He reminded all too well the face of his compatriot Manfred Winkelhock at Surer funerals, some days earlier. There were the entire colony of aspiring German and Austrian pilots there: Gerhard Berger, the Winkelhock brothers, Jo Gartner. And Hans Stuck and poor Jochen Mass, the last two survivors of the preceding generation of F1 German pilots that had been so cruelly crippled – the Stommelen and many others, all dead.
By 1983 the young generation of Jo Gartner, Manfred Winkelhock and Stefan Bellof all had driven for the one and only German team, the not-very-bright ATS. Since then Zakspeed had been hardly better. Bellof, for his part, had struggled with Tyrrell for two years, two years of extreme highs and extreme lows – Monaco 1984 being the most extreme example, third behind Prost and that... how was he called, Senna ? Yes, Senna.
And then Bellof and Brundle entire season send to the trash heap of F1 history, because Ken Tyrrell was, at times, a though con man. Well, Mosley and Ecclestone, once the the Brabham and March bosses, had been F1 con men in their youth, too, when with Tyrrell himself, and McLaren and Frank Williams and Lotus' Collin Chapman, they had created the FOCA and later declared war to that asshole Balestre. A war that had nearly split F1 but was no longer a concern.
Bellof was done with that old crook Ken Tyrrell, really, and he had recently hit gold. If all went well, within three weeks he would meet the living God of Formula One, the one even Ecclestone, Mosley and Balestre feared, the man made of stuff of legends.
ENZO FERRARI. I WILL DRIVE FOR FERRARI, like the grand old Von Trips.
Boutsen, however, interrupted the young german day dreaming.
«Stefan... I need to warn you. Ecclestone has just blown a fuse over Palmer accident, closely following Surer death.
«What...
«He phoned our teams. Mine and yours. Tyrrell and fucking Arrows. Its official: we are forbidden to enter the race, or racing for Group C. Otherwise we can kiss our F1 drives goodbye. You certainly know that Ken Tyrrell is not in a position of strength... and Arrows is even worse, well, they may lost the BMW, and are near bankruptcy.» it was as if Boutsen was chewing nails.
Bellof was aghast. He loved Group C, where Porsche largely avenged Germany past and present F1 miseries. He phoned Ken Tyrrell, and his boss was clear enough – as much as he hated Ecclestone, for once, they were on the same side.
If Bellof put his life at risk running in that fucking Belgium race, he could kiss his F1 drive over. Bellof tried to argue, until Tyrell hit the nail in the head. «Oh, and Enzo Ferrari is on our side too. Don't forget F1 is a small world.»
Damn.
Is Ken tyrrell threatening my future...??!!
...and then he realized. Tyrrell could screw him over his contract, past and future contracts, actually, Ferrari included. Senna had tried screwing Toleman when going to Lotus, and he had been punished.
He gave up.
To the utter shock of Walter Brun, the owner of the Porsche 956 he was to drive in Spa. Bellof actually tried to discuss the matter with Brun, but to his surprise his boss seemed only that furious... although he had to forfait the race,both his pilots away.
There is something bizarre here - something Bellof could hardly explain.
Little did he knew that Walter Brun was willing to enter Formula one sooner rather than later, and as such, he was better not to anger Ecclestone. Unbestknown to Bellof, Walter Brun was in touch with the moribund Alfa Romeo F1 team, soon to close after 7 years of dismal failures.
Brun was also discussing with Giampaollo Pavanello and Carlos Chiti, two collateral victims of Alfa Romeo F1 fiasco. Pavanello Euroracing (once a F3 team) had taken over from Alfa itself and failed miserably. While Chiti engines had been disapointing, to say the least. This did not worried Walter Brun by any mean, he remained convinced Alfa Romeo was his best hope for a F1 ticket in the next future.
So Bellof capitulated, blissfully unaware Tyrrell and Ecclestone shameless bargaining had saved his life and a promising F1 career, too.
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archibald
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The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
Posts: 359
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Post by archibald on Aug 24, 2020 7:28:05 GMT
So this entry had the germs of interwined future story arcs - Alfa Romeo in F1 (fasten your seat belts there: it is an horror, mind-boggling story) - Bernie Ecclestone 1985-86 miseries with Brabham - Stefen Bellof lives, impacting Philippe Streiff and Ivan Capelli careers (they replaced him OTL at Tyrrell - ITTL, they will not) - in turn, Streiff and Capelli fates (who where actually more than pilots at the time), will impact such future F1 teams as the French AGS and Larrousse and also the coming March (with Adrian Newey).
Some more details: Bernie blowing a fuse over hurt or dead F1 pilots in Group C or endurance is, first, justified ITTL by Hesnault accident being much more damaging to him. The Hesnault family is making his life a misery.
But there is more.
Summer 1985 and more generally, 1985-86, really saw a carnage of F1 pilots hurt or killed in Le Mans / Endurance / Groupe C.
- Manfred Winkelhock (RAM F1 team): dead.
- Stefan Bellof (Tyrrell): dead
- The day before Bellof died, Jonathan Palmer (Zakspeed F1): badly broken legs and feet.
- June 1986, Le Mans: Jo Gartner killed.
The Porsche 956 and 962 certainly dominated Endurance in the mid-80's, but they also took their toll of pilots.
Somewhat astoninshingly, that F1 car - the ATS D6 - had Winkelhock, Gartner and Bellof (all three dead later) driving it circa 1983. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATS_D6 Maybe it was a maleficiant car (like Stefen King Christine) since all its drivers died later ?
This is the reason why since then, F1 pilots are forced to stick to "F1 and nothing else" during the peak of their career. Kubica of course tragically illustrated the issue a decade ago, with his accident in WRC..;
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archibald
Ensign
The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
Posts: 359
Likes: 364
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Post by archibald on Aug 24, 2020 10:03:20 GMT
Next steps in The house of Tyrrell - Adelaide 1985, last race of the year (and a memorable one already OTL - ITTL will get even better) - Bellof first victory, 1986 (with some consequences down the line)
- interseason changes between OTL and ITL (I though they were minimals but when I started tweaking Wikipedia 1986 F1 champiosnhip page... OMG).
I don't intend to change and narrate every single F1 race from 1986 to 1993, at 15 per year it would be more than a hundred (!) that would be tedious to read and too complicated for me.
Rather broad sketches of the changes compared to OTL.
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