ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 25, 2020 16:01:56 GMT
TR getting shot on the campaign actually had no effect on his health. It was honestly little more than a graze But his hunting trip did not help him. That was the nail in the coffin. Avoid the trip to Africa and he is in much better health in how later years. Though, to be fair, the death of his son in France in WWI apparently left him utterly despondent. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 26, 2020 10:18:48 GMT
But his hunting trip did not help him. That was the nail in the coffin. Avoid the trip to Africa and he is in much better health in how later years. Though, to be fair, the death of his son in France in WWI apparently left him utterly despondent.
Small quibble. It was the Amazon where he fell sick and nearly died, which seems to have caused a lasting decline in his health. Here that would be butterflied as he did that OTL after failing to win in 1912. Might well still lose his however son given the American role in WWI will be longer and much bloodier.
Not sure what will happen in 1916. With a war going on the voters might feel loyalty to the Republicans and support whoever is his successor - unless he goes for a 3rd elected term. Or the heavy losses in France and the Atlantic could alienated many.
Anyway looking forward to seeing what happens.
Steve
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 26, 2020 11:55:04 GMT
That was the nail in the coffin. Avoid the trip to Africa and he is in much better health in how later years. Though, to be fair, the death of his son in France in WWI apparently left him utterly despondent.
Small quibble. It was the Amazon where he fell sick and nearly died, which seems to have caused a lasting decline in his health. Here that would be butterflied as he did that OTL after failing to win in 1912. Might well still lose his however son given the American role in WWI will be longer and much bloodier.
Not sure what will happen in 1916. With a war going on the voters might feel loyalty to the Republicans and support whoever is his successor - unless he goes for a 3rd elected term. Or the heavy losses in France and the Atlantic could alienated many.
Anyway looking forward to seeing what happens.
Steve
Ugh. Teach me to second guess myself. I knew it was the Amazon, but I still put Africa. Thanks. This timeline won't focus too much on the political aspects except as they pertain directly to the story. Since it's not mentioned in the story, but is in my background notes, I'll summarize some of it here. The election of TR in 1912 causes serious waves in both the GOP and the Democrats. The Republican party in this TL is the more progressive party and is not seen as wanting the war. TR, as a party platform during the election, pushed for a naval arms treaty to limit battleship and battlecruiser construction (this is an OTL Progressive Party platform). However, the outbreak of war during negotiations sank that idea. TR then offered his services to mediate the dispute (both before and after the outbreak of hostilities). He REALLY wanted this since it would have cemented his status as a peace broker and likely landed him a second Nobel Prize. He was making headway when the Germans sank Lusitania. This was seen in America as a stab in the back and a betrayal of trust. And TR spun it that way. He asked Congress for a DOW and they agreed. He was reelected in 1916. And served his entire term, retiring in 1921. His son Quentin survived the war, barely, getting shot down in early 1917. But he "successfully" crashed his plane in no man's land and was rescued by men of the 369th Infantry Regiment. This went a long way to easing racism in the United States after the war. Quentin would serve as a Senator from NY from 1926 to 1950 when he retired. Theodore Roosevelt Jr and Archie Roosevelt also served in the war. TR Jr as a Colonel was decorated for gallantry in action and awarded a purple heart for being wounded in action. Both men went on to successful business and political careers after the war. TR Jr would serve as Vice President of the United States from 1929 to 1933. Archie ended the war as a Major and remained on active duty after the war and ended his career a 4 Star General and Army Chief of Staff. Due to the fracturing of the parties in 1912, FDR became a Republican in 1913 and served in TR's adminstration as Assistant Secretary of the Navy. He also never became paralyzed in TTL since he was actively involved with the GOP and running for the office of Governor of New York in 1922 (and winning). He was elected President in 1936 and served two terms, retiring in 1945. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 26, 2020 13:34:53 GMT
Small quibble. It was the Amazon where he fell sick and nearly died, which seems to have caused a lasting decline in his health. Here that would be butterflied as he did that OTL after failing to win in 1912. Might well still lose his however son given the American role in WWI will be longer and much bloodier. Not sure what will happen in 1916. With a war going on the voters might feel loyalty to the Republicans and support whoever is his successor - unless he goes for a 3rd elected term. Or the heavy losses in France and the Atlantic could alienated many. Anyway looking forward to seeing what happens. Steve
Ugh. Teach me to second guess myself. I knew it was the Amazon, but I still put Africa. Thanks. This timeline won't focus too much on the political aspects except as they pertain directly to the story. Since it's not mentioned in the story, but is in my background notes, I'll summarize some of it here. The election of TR in 1912 causes serious waves in both the GOP and the Democrats. The Republican party in this TL is the more progressive party and is not seen as wanting the war. TR, as a party platform during the election, pushed for a naval arms treaty to limit battleship and battlecruiser construction (this is an OTL Progressive Party platform). However, the outbreak of war during negotiations sank that idea. TR then offered his services to mediate the dispute (both before and after the outbreak of hostilities). He REALLY wanted this since it would have cemented his status as a peace broker and likely landed him a second Nobel Prize. He was making headway when the Germans sank Lusitania. This was seen in America as a stab in the back and a betrayal of trust. And TR spun it that way. He asked Congress for a DOW and they agreed. He was reelected in 1916. And served his entire term, retiring in 1921. His son Quentin survived the war, barely, getting shot down in early 1917. But he "successfully" crashed his plane in no man's land and was rescued by men of the 369th Infantry Regiment. This went a long way to easing racism in the United States after the war. Quentin would serve as a Senator from NY from 1926 to 1950 when he retired. Theodore Roosevelt Jr and Archie Roosevelt also served in the war. TR Jr as a Colonel was decorated for gallantry in action and awarded a purple heart for being wounded in action. Both men went on to successful business and political careers after the war. TR Jr would serve as Vice President of the United States from 1929 to 1933. Archie ended the war as a Major and remained on active duty after the war and ended his career a 4 Star General and Army Chief of Staff. Due to the fracturing of the parties in 1912, FDR became a Republican in 1913 and served in TR's adminstration as Assistant Secretary of the Navy. He also never became paralyzed in TTL since he was actively involved with the GOP and running for the office of Governor of New York in 1922 (and winning). He was elected President in 1936 and served two terms, retiring in 1945. Reading this, the sons of Roosevelt are a successful story compared to the Kennedy sons. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 26, 2020 14:11:57 GMT
They were successful in our time as well. TR Jr was Governor of Puerto Rico and Governor General of the Philippines as well as serving as Assistant Secretary of the Navy and reaching the rank of Brigadier General in WWII and being awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions on D-Day. Archie Roosevelt reached the rank of Lt Colonel and was awarded FOUR Silver Stars. TR's family defined the term "overachiever."
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 26, 2020 19:47:09 GMT
Realized I forgot to mention Kermit Roosevelt in the above list. Served as a Captain in the US Army, wounded in action in France in 1916, losing his left leg to a German artillery shell at Belleau Wood. Returned to the United States to recover, breveted to Major and given a medical discharge in 1917. Founded The Roosevelt Steamship Company and United States Lines with his brother Quentin. Never got over the loss of how leg and developed a drinking problem, despite being successful and becoming a millionaire in his own right. Survived the Wall Street Crash in 1929 in relatively good condition, but nearly drank himself to death by 1934. Agreed to go to a sanitarium for his alcoholism in 1935. Killed in 1937 in a car accident in New York City.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 27, 2020 1:57:03 GMT
Between 1918 and 1924, the White Star Line steamers establish dominance on the North Atlantic route. Offering weekly express sailings from Southampton, Liverpool and the Mediterranean to New York, Boston, Quebec and Montreal. Not to be overlooked either is White Star's Australian Service, where again, they are a leader in the trade. Though their Australia ships, while offering the same White Star level of comfort, are smaller and are "mixed use" ships, in that they carry just as much cargo as they do passengers.
Beginning in 1920, White Star received an unexpected boost. The United States passed the 18th Amendment and banned the sale and transportation of Alcohol in the United States. What this meant for the Transatlantic trade was that US Flagged vessels were suddenly much less appealing to passengers. The 1920s saw White Star set records for the number of passengers carried.
The 1920s were full of change for White Star. They were the Crown Jewel in International Mercantile Marine. However, the war years and poor management at IMM had forced many changes. The largest being White Star Line being purchased from IMM by J. Bruce Ismay, Lord William James Pirrie and Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon in 1921. The other major change at White Star again had to do with the United States.
In 1924, President Leonard Wood announced a new immigration policy for the United States. Beginning in 1925 and taking place over a period of 10 years, the United States would reduce the number of immigrants it would accept by 50%. This would be accomplished by a 5% reduction each year based on the number of immigrants in 1924.
While this new policy was certainly a shock to White Star, and many other lines who relied on the immigrant trade for the vast majority of their revenues, all of the lines felt that they could still survive. In White Star's case, they decided upon a strategy that, at the time, was considered radical. Between 1924 and 1929 they acquired the Red Star Line, Dominion Line and Leyland Line. All former members of International Mercantile Marine. In acquiring these three lines, they removed their ships from the North Atlantic run and began to redeploy those suitable to service the South America, Australia and Orient runs while simultaneously replacing those ships with their own vessels, primarily the "Big Four" taking over Dominion Line's Canadian service. They also used their former competitors ships to explore a new market: short "cruises" to the Caribbean for Americans tired of Prohibition.
Of these, the cruises were deemed to be the least successful. Not because of a lack of passengers. But because the ships were primarily designed for sailing in colder climates. However, White Star made enough profit on these short cruises by smaller vessels to continue operating them. They also shortly discovered that by painting the ships white verses the standard black, the ships tended to stay quite a bit cooler. The three most popular vessels on the service were SS Regina, Doric and Pittsburgh. All being moderately sized ships and configured to carry roughly 1,000 passengers in Tourist and Cabin classes. While successful in the sense that the ships found useful employment and that they weren't losing money, White Star had no further plans to invest in this aspect of their business.
It was during this same period of time that White Star began a modest program of updating their fleet. In 1924 White Star announced that Harland and Wolff would be building a new class of 35,000 ton liners to replace the Big Four. These three ships were to be named RMS Oceanic, RMS Atlantic and RMS Pacific. They would be the first liners built to the new safety standards following the tragic loss of RMS Berengaria in March, 1923 when she collided with the SS Greenland in heavy fog. That disaster which cost the lives of over 2,000 passengers and crew when the Berengaria sank in less than 2 hours (and the Greenland in less than 15 minutes) resulted in sweeping changes to the shipping industry. The primary change being that all ships were now required to carry enough lifeboats for every person onboard with at least two of the lifeboats equipped with wireless radio sets as well to aid rescue ships in locating the boats. However, other changes were mandated as well. The largest being a full double hull the entire length of the ship rising at least one deck above the waterline and requiring all watertight compartments to be truly watertight with the bulkheads rising the full height of the ship to prevent water from spilling over into adjacent compartments.
Fortunately for White Star, and for other lines who's ships had been used as troopships in the Great War, their ships were almost entirely already equipped to handle enough boats for every passenger. They simply had to be loaded on board. This White Star did over the following 6 months, though most passengers on the Olympic-class ships were often overheard complaining that the extra boats were a waste of space, as all three ships had proven their ability to take damage and survive.
In 1927, the first of the Oceanic-class ships entered service. 735' long, 84' beam and turbine powered, they could steam at 26 knots. Designed to carry up to 1,900 passengers each, they immediately proved popular on White Star's Canada service. So popular in fact, that a modified follow up class was ordered to replace the ships in service on the Australia and South America runs. This follow up class was to have more open space on deck and a new forced draught ventilation system below decks. The 8 ships ordered added to the three already in service were, at the time, the largest class of passenger ships ever built. The first ship of the follow up class, the RMS Republic, was ordered in 1929.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 27, 2020 12:12:19 GMT
Small quibble. It was the Amazon where he fell sick and nearly died, which seems to have caused a lasting decline in his health. Here that would be butterflied as he did that OTL after failing to win in 1912. Might well still lose his however son given the American role in WWI will be longer and much bloodier.
Not sure what will happen in 1916. With a war going on the voters might feel loyalty to the Republicans and support whoever is his successor - unless he goes for a 3rd elected term. Or the heavy losses in France and the Atlantic could alienated many.
Anyway looking forward to seeing what happens.
Steve
Ugh. Teach me to second guess myself. I knew it was the Amazon, but I still put Africa. Thanks. This timeline won't focus too much on the political aspects except as they pertain directly to the story. Since it's not mentioned in the story, but is in my background notes, I'll summarize some of it here. The election of TR in 1912 causes serious waves in both the GOP and the Democrats. The Republican party in this TL is the more progressive party and is not seen as wanting the war. TR, as a party platform during the election, pushed for a naval arms treaty to limit battleship and battlecruiser construction (this is an OTL Progressive Party platform). However, the outbreak of war during negotiations sank that idea. TR then offered his services to mediate the dispute (both before and after the outbreak of hostilities). He REALLY wanted this since it would have cemented his status as a peace broker and likely landed him a second Nobel Prize. He was making headway when the Germans sank Lusitania. This was seen in America as a stab in the back and a betrayal of trust. And TR spun it that way. He asked Congress for a DOW and they agreed. He was reelected in 1916. And served his entire term, retiring in 1921. His son Quentin survived the war, barely, getting shot down in early 1917. But he "successfully" crashed his plane in no man's land and was rescued by men of the 369th Infantry Regiment. This went a long way to easing racism in the United States after the war. Quentin would serve as a Senator from NY from 1926 to 1950 when he retired. Theodore Roosevelt Jr and Archie Roosevelt also served in the war. TR Jr as a Colonel was decorated for gallantry in action and awarded a purple heart for being wounded in action. Both men went on to successful business and political careers after the war. TR Jr would serve as Vice President of the United States from 1929 to 1933. Archie ended the war as a Major and remained on active duty after the war and ended his career a 4 Star General and Army Chief of Staff. Due to the fracturing of the parties in 1912, FDR became a Republican in 1913 and served in TR's adminstration as Assistant Secretary of the Navy. He also never became paralyzed in TTL since he was actively involved with the GOP and running for the office of Governor of New York in 1922 (and winning). He was elected President in 1936 and served two terms, retiring in 1945.
So he served most of a term as the successor to the assassinated McKinley, a term in his own right 1904-08 then two terms 1912-20. Breaching the two term limit that had been established by tradition since Washington's time. Did that result in the passing to an amendment limiting Presidents to two terms as OTL?
Good if the incident with Quentin being rescued by black troops helped reduce the nasty racism backlash after the war. Presume you still get some revival of the KKK as OTL but more limited in its power and influence.
IIRC OTL FDR choose the Democrats because Teddy's side of the family were so strong in the Republican party, basically a way for the family to edge its bets, so that will be different here. Plus if he avoids the polio that will make a vast difference to his life.
However as you say politics and other issues are secondary to the story of the White Star Line so will try not to derail the thread too much by asking about it.
Thanks
Steve
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 27, 2020 15:58:41 GMT
Ugh. Teach me to second guess myself. I knew it was the Amazon, but I still put Africa. Thanks. This timeline won't focus too much on the political aspects except as they pertain directly to the story. Since it's not mentioned in the story, but is in my background notes, I'll summarize some of it here. The election of TR in 1912 causes serious waves in both the GOP and the Democrats. The Republican party in this TL is the more progressive party and is not seen as wanting the war. TR, as a party platform during the election, pushed for a naval arms treaty to limit battleship and battlecruiser construction (this is an OTL Progressive Party platform). However, the outbreak of war during negotiations sank that idea. TR then offered his services to mediate the dispute (both before and after the outbreak of hostilities). He REALLY wanted this since it would have cemented his status as a peace broker and likely landed him a second Nobel Prize. He was making headway when the Germans sank Lusitania. This was seen in America as a stab in the back and a betrayal of trust. And TR spun it that way. He asked Congress for a DOW and they agreed. He was reelected in 1916. And served his entire term, retiring in 1921. His son Quentin survived the war, barely, getting shot down in early 1917. But he "successfully" crashed his plane in no man's land and was rescued by men of the 369th Infantry Regiment. This went a long way to easing racism in the United States after the war. Quentin would serve as a Senator from NY from 1926 to 1950 when he retired. Theodore Roosevelt Jr and Archie Roosevelt also served in the war. TR Jr as a Colonel was decorated for gallantry in action and awarded a purple heart for being wounded in action. Both men went on to successful business and political careers after the war. TR Jr would serve as Vice President of the United States from 1929 to 1933. Archie ended the war as a Major and remained on active duty after the war and ended his career a 4 Star General and Army Chief of Staff. Due to the fracturing of the parties in 1912, FDR became a Republican in 1913 and served in TR's adminstration as Assistant Secretary of the Navy. He also never became paralyzed in TTL since he was actively involved with the GOP and running for the office of Governor of New York in 1922 (and winning). He was elected President in 1936 and served two terms, retiring in 1945.
So he served most of a term as the successor to the assassinated McKinley, a term in his own right 1904-08 then two terms 1912-20. Breaching the two term limit that had been established by tradition since Washington's time. Did that result in the passing to an amendment limiting Presidents to two terms as OTL?
Good if the incident with Quentin being rescued by black troops helped reduce the nasty racism backlash after the war. Presume you still get some revival of the KKK as OTL but more limited in its power and influence.
IIRC OTL FDR choose the Democrats because Teddy's side of the family were so strong in the Republican party, basically a way for the family to edge its bets, so that will be different here. Plus if he avoids the polio that will make a vast difference to his life.
However as you say politics and other issues are secondary to the story of the White Star Line so will try not to derail the thread too much by asking about it.
Thanks
Steve
Oh I don't mind the questions about background info! It lets me expand the world I'm portraying. Yes, TR breaking the informal two term limit did prompt an amendment to the Constitution formally limiting a President to two terms. He actually publicly supported it's passage while running for his fourth term. And yes, he was called out for his hypocrisy in supporting a two term limit while simultaneously running for a third elected term and fourth overall. He still won relatively easily. Obviously, this one event with Quentin will not erase racism in the United States. But seeing as black soldiers served alongside whites on the line (still in segregated units, just in adjacent positions), and very often black soldiers were noted for their gallantry and ferocity in battle, that went a long way to changing people's views. Mainly, some obviously wrote it off as "proof of the Negro's savagery and inability to live in civilized society." Thankfully, they were the minority. But overall, there was not nearly the racist backlash of OTL. One thing that really helped, was the newspaper photographs of James R Europe and Horace Pippin being awarded the Medal of Honor and Distinguished Service Cross respectively in 1918 for their role in rescuing Quentin Roosevelt from no man's land. They were awarded the medals by President Roosevelt at the White House along with other recipients of the medals. FDR was always a shrewd political operator. And he read the tea leaves that Teddy's election was going to cause a fundamental shift in the parties. That going forward, the Democrats were more likely to trend conservative and pander more to the Dixiecrat wing of the party. Knowing that, he switched to the GOP as it held better long term prospects for his political future. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 27, 2020 16:13:48 GMT
Ugh. Teach me to second guess myself. I knew it was the Amazon, but I still put Africa. Thanks. This timeline won't focus too much on the political aspects except as they pertain directly to the story. Since it's not mentioned in the story, but is in my background notes, I'll summarize some of it here. The election of TR in 1912 causes serious waves in both the GOP and the Democrats. The Republican party in this TL is the more progressive party and is not seen as wanting the war. TR, as a party platform during the election, pushed for a naval arms treaty to limit battleship and battlecruiser construction (this is an OTL Progressive Party platform). However, the outbreak of war during negotiations sank that idea. TR then offered his services to mediate the dispute (both before and after the outbreak of hostilities). He REALLY wanted this since it would have cemented his status as a peace broker and likely landed him a second Nobel Prize. He was making headway when the Germans sank Lusitania. This was seen in America as a stab in the back and a betrayal of trust. And TR spun it that way. He asked Congress for a DOW and they agreed. He was reelected in 1916. And served his entire term, retiring in 1921. His son Quentin survived the war, barely, getting shot down in early 1917. But he "successfully" crashed his plane in no man's land and was rescued by men of the 369th Infantry Regiment. This went a long way to easing racism in the United States after the war. Quentin would serve as a Senator from NY from 1926 to 1950 when he retired. Theodore Roosevelt Jr and Archie Roosevelt also served in the war. TR Jr as a Colonel was decorated for gallantry in action and awarded a purple heart for being wounded in action. Both men went on to successful business and political careers after the war. TR Jr would serve as Vice President of the United States from 1929 to 1933. Archie ended the war as a Major and remained on active duty after the war and ended his career a 4 Star General and Army Chief of Staff. Due to the fracturing of the parties in 1912, FDR became a Republican in 1913 and served in TR's adminstration as Assistant Secretary of the Navy. He also never became paralyzed in TTL since he was actively involved with the GOP and running for the office of Governor of New York in 1922 (and winning). He was elected President in 1936 and served two terms, retiring in 1945. So he served most of a term as the successor to the assassinated McKinley, a term in his own right 1904-08 then two terms 1912-20. Breaching the two term limit that had been established by tradition since Washington's time. Did that result in the passing to an amendment limiting Presidents to two terms as OTL? Good if the incident with Quentin being rescued by black troops helped reduce the nasty racism backlash after the war. Presume you still get some revival of the KKK as OTL but more limited in its power and influence. IIRC OTL FDR choose the Democrats because Teddy's side of the family were so strong in the Republican party, basically a way for the family to edge its bets, so that will be different here. Plus if he avoids the polio that will make a vast difference to his life. However as you say politics and other issues are secondary to the story of the White Star Line so will try not to derail the thread too much by asking about it. Thanks Steve
Now we have to see if his fifth cousin Franklin D. Roosevelt will become a president as OTL and if he does more than 2 terms. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 28, 2020 9:42:13 GMT
So he served most of a term as the successor to the assassinated McKinley, a term in his own right 1904-08 then two terms 1912-20. Breaching the two term limit that had been established by tradition since Washington's time. Did that result in the passing to an amendment limiting Presidents to two terms as OTL? Good if the incident with Quentin being rescued by black troops helped reduce the nasty racism backlash after the war. Presume you still get some revival of the KKK as OTL but more limited in its power and influence. IIRC OTL FDR choose the Democrats because Teddy's side of the family were so strong in the Republican party, basically a way for the family to edge its bets, so that will be different here. Plus if he avoids the polio that will make a vast difference to his life. However as you say politics and other issues are secondary to the story of the White Star Line so will try not to derail the thread too much by asking about it. Thanks Steve
Now we have to see if his fifth cousin Franklin D. Roosevelt will become a president as OTL and if he does more than 2 terms.
Presumably not if that amendment to restrict Presidents to two terms passes. Unless there's a really serious crisis that prompts pressure for its repeal or suspension. Even then if it was for another Roosevelt you would likely have a strong reaction against a 'dynasty' being created that is dominating too much of US politics.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 28, 2020 9:53:06 GMT
Now we have to see if his fifth cousin Franklin D. Roosevelt will become a president as OTL and if he does more than 2 terms. Presumably not if that amendment to restrict Presidents to two terms passes. Unless there's a really serious crisis that prompts pressure for its repeal or suspension. Even then if it was for another Roosevelt you would likely have a strong reaction against a 'dynasty' being created that is dominating too much of US politics.
So one Roosevelt in office is enough. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 28, 2020 10:14:31 GMT
FDR was elected in 1936 served two terms.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 28, 2020 10:16:12 GMT
FDR was elected in 1936 served two terms. So two Roosevelt’s president and on Vice-president if I am correct. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 28, 2020 12:45:29 GMT
FDR was elected in 1936 served two terms. So two Roosevelt’s president and on Vice-president if I am correct. So far, yes. Along with one Senator and one General |
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