Greco-Roman Peoples React To Modern World

[Zyobot]

Jul 31, 2021 10:39:41 GMT stevep said:

  To be frank I can't see slavery surviving given up-time attitudes and power.  In things like mines its one of the most brutal versions of slavery that ever existed.  Which also presents another problem as since their not going to be allowed to obtain new slaves number would quickly decline if traditional methods were allowed to continue.

Neither do I, especially since the islands are an order of magnitude easier to take over and occupy than post-WW2 Germany, militarily speaking. Mostly, I was thinking—or, perhaps, somewhat overthinking—the PR aspect of forced modernization, even if the twin processes of “de-Hellenization” and “de-Romanization” are technically in the cards.

That’s one of the reasons why I posited some answers uptimers would give to likely questions the downtimers would ask, such as “Who will do the heavy lifting?”. To which they’d essentially reply, “Free, reasonably paid workers and modern technology that’ll boost efficiency.”, though the latter may be obsolete or otherwise downgraded by our standards, since uptimers won’t trust Greco-Roman communities with that technology just yet. Maybe in a generation or two, I’d say, specifically when the bulk of the political class is made up of Post-ISOT Greeks and Romans who grew up with twenty-first century values.

Jul 31, 2021 10:39:41 GMT stevep said:

However given the small size of the down-time colony I can't see it being able to prevent the modern world from interfering to stop the system.  Which of course requires deciding what to do with the freed slaves as they wouldn't be safe in the down time colony without a continued presence by the up-timers. 

Downtimers resisting is a laughable proposition, yes. As I said above, I was thinking more of the PR side of uptimer occupation and modernization efforts, especially given the extra shock and wariness that’d come with seeing jets or helicopters patrolling the skies every now and then. When strange people with equally strange values--and even stranger technology at their beck and call—show up out of the blue and tell you to drop everything after introducing themselves, that’s not exactly a good look.

That being the case, I’d hope for uptimer authorities to calmly explain why they’ve been doing things the wrong way and what the twenty-first century has to offer them, though they’ll no doubt have to use force and displays of power in equal measure. Which may be inevitable, but I’d imagine there’s a “sweet spot” that’d minimize the lingering fear and resentment among the population, if we can help it.

Jul 31, 2021 10:39:41 GMT stevep said:

  Can't remember whether its been said before but there are other reasons for intervention such as to maintain order in neighbouring waters and providing security on both sides against diseases that might run rampant.  Coupled with its location and that the bulk of the population would be considered white and I can't really see the down-time islands being under de-facto control, probably of the EU as the nearest great power for at least a decade or two once it arrives.  Which could well become permanent given the small size of the islands and the culture shock their likely to face as well as the EU's reluctance to ever give up power.

Regularly patrolling the Ionian Sea seems fair, both for reasons I described and ones you mentioned that I forgot about (which is to say, a potential disease exchange). Maybe you’d have uptimer maritime forces who accept swimming refugees dressed head-to-toe in body armor as they help them aboard, before leading them to in-ship medical facilities to be checked and vaccinated? Ordinarily, convincing them the latter is safe would be a tough sell to people regularly bombarded by plagues (since the jab gives you a controlled dose of such bugs), but considering how the initial parameters make modern knowledge widely accessible (though you’d still have to correct a flurry of rumors and misconceptions), I’d think they’d have some idea of what to expect. Especially if uptimer governments air televised broadcasts that explicitly tell escapees what to do when they contact patrolling crews, much to the ire of downtimer authorities and reactionaries of much lower station.

I’m not sure I understand why downtimers’ racial makeup plays a role in who’d take control, however. I’d think that Greece and Italy would take their respective islands, even though the EU is likely to get involved and bring its tangled and inelegant latticework of laws with it, as you’ve said. Which may galvanize a new wave of anti-globalist objections both within and outside of the Twin Islands, due to a) Greece and Italy hotly contending that this is their problem to handle and b) Greco-Romans balking at the idea of uptimers even more removed from them than their distant descendants being their new judge and jury for the next ten, twenty, or thirty-plus years. Which I wouldn’t necessarily like if I were in their sandals either, though the backwards state of where they live means that something has to change.

Thinking a bit more about my initial comments on lots of slaves giving thanks to Marx and Lenin, I suppose it’s less likely they’d become that desperate than I feared, assuming uptimers free them and subdue their masters as quickly as you’ve said. However, I also suspect a workers’ state without rich, demanding masters who lord over them--and after their original communities have been bloodily conquered, striped of their people, and shipped off to a faraway land where they become little more than walking, talking commodities to be bought and sold--would prove dangerously alluring, and not just for Helots who might as well be the Russian serfs of the ancient world. Even if most of them are smart enough to realize that the dominant Marxist-Leninist movements of yesteryear simply replaced one master with another who blew smoke up the people's ass, I still think many of them would look more to Leon Trotsky as an inspiration than Joseph Stalin, even though the former was himself a brutal bastard who advocated his own brand of constant bloodletting. Syndicalism would also take off among disenchanted slave communities, I imagine.

Unfortunately for them, uptimer authorities and mainstream Greco-Romans alike would much rather that classically liberal or social-democratic governments be installed that still abolish indentured servitude and offer meaningful protections to the downtrodden, but without infringing on (legitimate) private property and overall economic success. I need not comment on fascism, which may fascinate a handful of authoritarian downtimers who still come to despise Mussolini and Hitler for different reasons than we’d like, but really has no chance, per its atrocious record still being in living memory.

[Zyobot]

Cross-posting it from the 'Miscellaneous Star Wars Thread', I wonder what Greco-Romans would think of these attempts to make their history conform to the plot of a fictional movie series? It's probably predicated on them having already watched Star Wars and picked up on some of the similarities its storyline has with their history, of course.

[Zyobot]

They've certainly have their share of mythical creatures, and our array of archeological findings would demonstrate that civilization is far older than they imagined. Naturally, I imagine modern paleontology would prove similarly shocking, dinosaurs being the most iconic and obvious surprise. I also wonder what they'd make of how many species have come, gone, and changed so much throughout the eons. The time between now and the Agricultural Revolution is a drop in the bucket on an evolutionary and geological timescale, so the sheer age of the Earth would be quite an eye-opener in of itself.

Planet Dinosaur Intro


Sea Monsters | National Geographic


What caused the Cambrian explosion? | The Economist


Their reactions to the more sensationalist, pop-cultural depictions is another big question, chiefly Jurassic Park and The Land Before Time, the latter for juvenile audiences entranced by Disney.

[Zyobot]

My understanding of their historiography is limited, but wasn't there something about the Greco-Romans separating it into Historical (recorded history), Mythical (mythology-based), and Obscure (unknown and too far back) blocs of time? If so, they'd have to reconfigure that in light of archeology and paleontology rising up, as well as two-thousand additional years of history having taken place.

To make it simple for them, maybe they can start by rebranding the Historical bloc as "Recorded History" and the Obscure bloc as "Prehistory", and break up each into much smaller periods that denote different paradigms within those humongous blocs. Taken as a whole, the latter goes back way further than they could've imagined, with the time it took for humans to evolve being negligible (never mind full-blown civilization arising!). One caveat, of course, is that dividing lines between history and prehistory can be unclear and vary from region to region, such as exhibitions in Place A unearthing translatable writing from 3,000 B.C., whereas Place B from around the same period does not. We've also cut out the Mythical section, which fundamentalist downtimers may still cling to, despite the lack of concrete evidence that their myths have any literal truth to them.

[Zyobot]

It'll take at least a few years, but once they're ready to plug and play, I wonder what Greco-Romans would post online? Especially on AH sites, since their unique perspectives would feed into historical and allohistorical discussions alike (though the staff would have to draw some clear lines in the sand in advance, in light of weening them off their more backwards, barbaric traditions). Exponential increases in discussions about--or at least, mentions of--Classical Antiquity is obvious, given how the Twin Islands' sudden appearance will remain on people's minds for quite some time.

However, I'm also curious as to what they'd say about modern history and discussions thereof, ranging from a more Latinized HRE to a very different twentieth century. Given the era they've been sent to, they're overwhelmingly likely to be inundated with modern historical references and uptimer users putting things into a heavily modernist framework. Heck, even something as little as remarking that Stalin's secret police was far more thorough and organized in their approach to terrorizing "problematic groups" than the Spartan Krypteia ever was, or insisting that Diocletian's severe persecution of Christians was still child's play compared to Hitler's Final Solution, would be responses they're met with from time to time (they'd likely reply that if the tyrants of yesteryear had the same tools as twentieth-century totalitarian regimes had and/or their own equivalents to Goebbels and Himmler, they'd have been just as bad). Really, everything seems to happen on a far larger scale now than it did back then, chiefly due to technology and population growth allowing sweeping changes to affect way more people in more profound ways--something they'd no doubt take note of, such as the World Wars completely drowning out the Punic Wars in absolute terms (if not necessarily per-capita ones).

[simon darkshade]

It really depends how many of them there are. The number of people who post online as a portion of the general population is reasonably small, if we separate the general social media drones. Of that number (the forum posters and Reddit users, for example), AH sites make up a very, very small fraction. They don’t even factor into “maps” of the Internet that I’ve seen.

So if there are 1000 Greeks and Romans, you might get the equivalent of someone’s left foot. You need a fairly large number to get a decent posting population for a relatively minor area of interest. Even then, what is the chance of that one bloke being one of the wealthier and worldly Greeks or Romans.

It does seem that you’re projecting a lot of modern mindsets, assumptions and world views on a people who lived in a different fashion, world and scope.

[Zyobot]

Had a reply in the works, but unintentionally deleted it because of accidentally reloading the page. Here’s to trying again and copy-pasting it in this time (I should know not to write longer replies on-site, goddammit! ).

Aug 13, 2021 7:56:37 GMT simon darkshade said:

It really depends how many of them there are. The number of people who post online as a portion of the general population is reasonably small, if we separate the general social media drones. Of that number (the forum posters and Reddit users, for example), AH sites make up a very, very small fraction. They don’t even factor into “maps” of the Internet that I’ve seen.

My bad, I must’ve mixed up this scenario with an outline I have for an ASB story, in which lots of Greco-Roman communities from throughout Classical Antiquity are sent forward in time and scattered across the Earth, depending on the exact time and place each community comes from. Obviously, that’s far more downtimers than the number present here, though it’ll also be considerably more than the 1,000 figure you gave here. Which is to say, more like several hundred-thousand (a million is too much of a stretch for my liking).

Uptimer occupation also means modernization, which is halfway done as is, due to the presence of modern infrastructure that already allows for smarter, more literate Greco-Romans to take in the information presented to them somewhat, if not necessarily plug and play themselves. The other half, of course, calls for “de-programming” by uptimer occupiers, which means setting up schools and compelling younger generations of downtimers to attend.

Certainly, modern ideas would face resistance from the adult population, but for young children and those born after the ISOT, they’d receive a (heavily slanted) modern education that teaches them twenty-first century values and updates them on the state of the world. In addition to the clear value of learning Italian and modern Greek, I also suspect that third-language programs that teach more global, albeit still Indo-European languages--such as English, French, and Spanish--would emerge down the line, since interaction (and inter-linkage) with the international community would eventually follow.

Aug 13, 2021 7:56:37 GMT simon darkshade said:

So if there are 1000 Greeks and Romans, you might get the equivalent of someone’s left foot. You need a fairly large number to get a decent posting population for a relatively minor area of interest. Even then, what is the chance of that one bloke being one of the wealthier and worldly Greeks or Romans.

Like I said, the ISOT brings several hundred-thousand downtimers along for the ride. Who are then provided with modern amenities from day one, and subsequently uplifted so that they learn how to use them. Limited literacy and damage to infrastructure via some downtimers’ inability to make heads or tails of what to do with it is a big risk, to be sure. But again, literate Greco-Romans—in however short supply (one estimate I saw was about ten percent of the Roman population could read, and the ISOT’d population would be representative of that rate)--may be able to figure something out, especially with ASB leaving explicit instructions on how to use their new devices.

Initially, it’s probable that more worldly and educated Greco-Romans are the first to post online. However, a combination of uptimer schooling and the infrastructure already being there means this would stop holding true within the next couple of decades. At that point, you’d have a far more substantial proportion of them active online, and even if it pales in comparison to how many uptimers there on forums or social media, being a Greco-Roman who posts would still be a significant novelty (which would still wear off as time passes and assimilation sets in).

Aug 13, 2021 7:56:37 GMT simon darkshade said:

It does seem that you’re projecting a lot of modern mindsets, assumptions and world views on a people who lived in a different fashion, world and scope.

Except for the fact that uptimer occupation would shove modernism down their throats, which--even if it has little success with the current crop of Greco-Romans--would have way more affect on young children and post-ISOT babies who grow up with a contemporary education (which will feature lots and lots of references to recent developments and history). Never mind how the needs of the current century would force them to adapt, such as by learning modern languages and how to use all the infrastructure they’ve been handed by ASB on a silver platter.

Furthermore, even if they were only presented with ironclad facts about history after Antiquity (rather than analysis and interpretation colored by modernist viewpoints), there are quite a few key assumptions of theirs that’d be blown out of the water and engender a significant crisis of faith. For starters, the fact that the Roman Empire wasn’t eternal and eventually collapsed, giving way to a smorgasbord of new European powers that rose and fell over the better part of two millennia since then. Some of them--such as Britain, France, and Spain--even founded transoceanic colonial empires that spread their customs, cultures, and languages further and wider than Rome ever had (even though they didn’t last as long). The reverse would come as equally shocking, given that Italy and Greece are now second-rate powers that have been suborned to the whims of larger nations (Italy being a junior power in the Axis, Greece suffering a debt crisis that has forced it to rely on the EU--led by Germany!--for bailouts). Given this, much of what they’ve been raised to believe will take a major kick to the face, and force them to correct their more deterministic and Eurocentric beliefs accordingly.

[Zyobot]

On a different note, considering the scale and sheer brutality of the last great multi-polar conflicts we've seen, I wonder what downtimers would make of series like Band of Brothers or The Pacific? It's one thing to tell them about how terrible World War II was, it's another to (somewhat) show them in a way that makes the shock value self-evident. Not that Greco-Roman warfare was anywhere near what we'd consider humane, but I'd think that the excesses of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan would disturb even them somewhat, considering how they both went above and beyond to be as brutal and murderous as possible. Maybe also Stalinist Russia, given their overall disapproval of tyrants.

John Basilone - Slap a Jap

[Zyobot]

Sept 25, 2020 16:59:50 GMT Zyobot said:

Sept 25, 2020 16:24:55 GMT stevep said:

  Good point on the latter.  There were some technological advances in the earlier period but nothing like the scale of modern times or the fact the rate of change still seems to be increasing.

Thank you. For obvious reasons, I imagine that the various Greco-Roman engineers and tinkerers will be eager--or at least, curious--to learn the ins and outs of how all our magical technology works. Likewise, historians will preoccupy themselves with studying how it was all came to be in the first place, while that one Roman engineer whose name I can't remember will eat his words about how all the knowledge in the world has already been discovered and that it's pointless to find more (assuming that he comes along for the ride, which there's no guarantee of here).

Also, though it probably receives less acknowledgement in AH circles, what would they make of the Scientific Revolution that laid much groundwork for industrialization to take hold? I'm not expert on the state of Greco-Roman natural philosophy around 300 or so, but I imagine that the notion that the universe operates according to consistent and systematically deducible principles--rather than according to the will of much more arbitrary and capricious forces like their gods--will intrigue them. The works of Isaac Newton and his contemporaries will generate some respectable interest among more inquisitive, knowledge-inclined Greeks and Romans, I'll bet.

Alternatively, it just occurred to me they may be surprised at how a few exceedingly old weapons are still used by modern armed forces. Namely, the M2 Browning still having a place in the US Military, though there are certainly others that remain serviceable, decades after first being introduced.

Top 10 Oldest Weapons still in Use

[stevep]

Sept 3, 2021 16:29:30 GMT Zyobot said:

Sept 25, 2020 16:59:50 GMT Zyobot said:

Thank you. For obvious reasons, I imagine that the various Greco-Roman engineers and tinkerers will be eager--or at least, curious--to learn the ins and outs of how all our magical technology works. Likewise, historians will preoccupy themselves with studying how it was all came to be in the first place, while that one Roman engineer whose name I can't remember will eat his words about how all the knowledge in the world has already been discovered and that it's pointless to find more (assuming that he comes along for the ride, which there's no guarantee of here).

Also, though it probably receives less acknowledgement in AH circles, what would they make of the Scientific Revolution that laid much groundwork for industrialization to take hold? I'm not expert on the state of Greco-Roman natural philosophy around 300 or so, but I imagine that the notion that the universe operates according to consistent and systematically deducible principles--rather than according to the will of much more arbitrary and capricious forces like their gods--will intrigue them. The works of Isaac Newton and his contemporaries will generate some respectable interest among more inquisitive, knowledge-inclined Greeks and Romans, I'll bet.

Alternatively, it just occurred to me they may be surprised at how a few exceedingly old weapons are still used by modern armed forces. Namely, the M2 Browning still having a place in the US Military, though there are certainly others that remain serviceable, decades after first being introduced.

Top 10 Oldest Weapons still in Use

  Possibly not, at least until they realise how rapidly things change, both technologically and culturally in the modern world.  There was relatively little change in the core weaponry of both the Greeks after Alexander or the Romans until Heavy Cavalry became dominant I believe.  As such suspect their attitude would be "if it still works then why change it?"

[Zyobot]

Sept 4, 2021 11:16:02 GMT stevep said:

Sept 3, 2021 16:29:30 GMT Zyobot said:

Alternatively, it just occurred to me they may be surprised at how a few exceedingly old weapons are still used by modern armed forces. Namely, the M2 Browning still having a place in the US Military, though there are certainly others that remain serviceable, decades after first being introduced.

Top 10 Oldest Weapons still in Use

  Possibly not, at least until they realise how rapidly things change, both technologically and culturally in the modern world.  There was relatively little change in the core weaponry of both the Greeks after Alexander or the Romans until Heavy Cavalry became dominant I believe.  As such suspect their attitude would be "if it still works then why change it?"

Well, I thinking more that the realization would happen in the opposite order. Which is to say, that the cursory and very general introduction to the modern world they receive would showcase the nonstop and unprecedentedly fast change over the last few centuries, with warfare being no exception. In the same amount of time as between Alexander's conquests and Caesar's dictatorship, we went from lines of soldiers walking stoically towards each other with muskets (and the occasional cannons providing extra firepower), to highly mobile battlefield operations that call for tanks, aircraft, armored warships, and small arms that regularly unleash continuous volleys of fire. Never mind nukes (and to a lesser extent, chemical and biological weapons), which they'd quickly find to be a key reason why today's great powers no longer engage in large-scale wars--and only as of the last seventy or so years, no less!

True, you can certainly pick out specific armaments and pieces of equipment that have remained in service over the course of a human lifetime, but to initial and/or uneducated observers--especially those coming from Greco-Roman times--I think the general trend would be the most obvious to start with. As such, those who display an above-average interest in military history, namely Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great, would probably come into it expecting sweeping overhauls of doctrine and technology to happen every generation. Which isn't even wrong, so I think it'd come as a surprise to them that there are multiple examples that actually buck the trend (i.e. the M2 Browning, which has remained in service for over a century now). As for why it evolves so rapidly, I suppose the best answer is that--due to international competition still being a thing and the risk of war remaining a fact of life--everyone always wants an edge over everyone else, which translates into nations aggressively pursuing the newest doctrines and technology to catch their enemies off-guard. Unfortunately, their competitors tend to think the same way, which only makes the trend a self-furthering one and facilitates a silent, but never-ending arms race between nations. Given how the great conflicts of Modernity were underpinned by the arms races that often preceded them, it's a tendency they may find more than "merely" perplexing. Perhaps even full-on disturbing, especially once they learn of the example set by the Cold War (and how just how many accidents repeatedly came close to starting World War III!).

[Zyobot]

Speaking of the defining conflicts of Modernity, it'd be interesting to see what they think of just the scale of both World Wars (even ignoring everything else)? Even ignoring everything else, the sheer amount of territory and quantities of people and supplies thrown in is nothing like what's been seen before, and the blood-soaked and geographically important legacy they left easily matches that of the most decisive events they know of (i.e. the Peloponnesian War, Alexander's Conquests, and Caesar's civil wars).

Given that it's a) the superpower of the current century and b) exists on a set of continents hitherto unknown to the Greco-Romans, I can imagine them being gobsmacked at American production levels during World War II. Outproducing damned near everyone on the planet in most of the categories that matter (one exception being tanks relative to the USSR) after being late to the party and lending huge quantities of war materiel to Great Britain and Soviet Russia both, while simultaneously keeping enough for itself and simultaneously fighting in two geographically observe theaters overseas, is a historic testament to American dominance. Ditto with how it became the last man standing in the aftermath, giving it a mandate to rebuild large swaths of Europe and Asia in its own image, as well as consistently enjoying lopsided advantages over its communist rivals throughout the ensuing decades (whose hegemon collapsed overnight, less than fifty years later).

[Zyobot]

Bit frivolous, b here's a meme I can see being circulated online in the wake of the ISOT:

--

Greco-Romans: "Zeus is the God of Lighting!"

Marvel Fans: "No, Thor is!"

Palpatine: "Hold my lightsabers."

Palpatine brings down ships with Force Lightning - TROS


--

Seriously, though, now I wonder how they'd react to modern special effects, both in this case and in general.

[Zyobot]

Another thing I've been wondering about is, considering its massive presence in the modern entertainment market, how Greco-Romans would react to the MCU? I know they're not the only ones with a multimedia franchise and crazy special effects, but they still stand tall in both categories. Ditto with how the universe(s) it depicts is intentionally fictional, as opposed to invoking god(s) that the creators literally believe to be real. Frankly, I'm not sure that many downtimers could stand to watch them (but especially violence-hating Greeks), given how terrifyingly real the special effects would look to them. What the various playwrights and actors of Antiquity might think is also worth discussing, I imagine.

Needless to say, I doubt they'll forget about scenes like the The Snap anytime soon; we can thank Thanos and Iron Man for making an impression there.

Avengers: Infinity War (2018) - "Snap Of Disintegration"| Movie Clip HD


Avengers: Endgame (2019) - "And I.. Am... Iron Man" | Movie Clip HD


I'm also curious as to what they'd think of What If...?, given that it's a whole series built around exploring hypothetical realities separate from the usual timeline. There have been ancient examples of people contemplating alternate-history scenarios, yes, but that's not the same as typical Greco-Roman audiences being able to wrap their heads around the idea.

[simon darkshade]

Childish cartoony rubbish? That is how it is perceived by a large amount of people past a certain age who don’t view whatever is currently surfing the wave of youth oriented pop culture as the alpha and omega of film, life, the universe and everything.

I watched a little bit of Thor once and it was very silly indeed whilst also taking itself far more serious than the old comic book version, which is also the only Marvel
comic that I read as an 8 year old.

You seem to be projecting again, so I’d employ the same formula as when assessing the level of Greco-Roman engagement in AH forums: only a certain fraction of a transferred population would get into (particular niche activity).

Re: American production in WW2 and general historical literacy…there isn’t a lot of everyday reaction to the former because there is a distinct lack of the latter. We often take for granted knowledge of some things and interests because we have a reasonable education and interest in them…but the general talk at bars, sporting matches, shopping centres, parties and other areas of idle conversation doesn’t get into historical logistics or any history whatsoever. For the majority of people, it isn’t really taught at school and they don’t retain what they do get anymore than they do the minutiae of junior biology.

You are far more likely to get more interested in Marvel or other products of the opium of the masses than historical debate. Taking our postulated 300,000 Greco Romans, there would be perhaps 100,000 slaves (the majority of whom would not be literate) and of the remaining 200,000, there would be varying rates of literacy, particularly among women and those drawn from rural communities. This leaves 100,000, with a possibly different age profile than what we’re accustomed to.

How many of 100,000 people from the USA, Britain, Australia or Canada would have: the equivalent of a college level history education; cultivate millenial fascination with pop culture and movies; and post online, to combine our three most recent categories? Not an awful lot. There is data on history majors in the USA - 0.363%.

In conclusion, a lot of young people are interested in Marvel pictures at the moment, but that doesn’t necessarily translate across to the full range of adult society and may not jump the even more significant generation gap to the New Ancients. It is more likely than them having an opinion on various points of history and caring enough to post online about it.

I don’t want to seem like Dr. No all the time, but I think you might be assuming too fast an adjustment. Forums, Marvel and talking WW2 are all the characteristics of (English speaking) cultural natives, whereas these folk are going to have far more prosaic concerns for their first few years uptime.

Having said that, there is scope for an interesting experimental television show where passers by are stopped and commanded to give their opinion on the Thirty Years’ War.