Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Sept 29, 2020 18:09:29 GMT
Hopefully, as in all things, there are at least a few educated Romans willing to come forward and enlighten us on what they knew about these religions that we don't (given how so much has been lost to time). The thorough Christianization of the Celts, Anglo-Saxons and other such peoples would've almost certainly done a number on the breadth of knowledge available to future generations, I'll bet.
As it concerns the new places that Christianity has spread to, what might the Greeks and Romans think of the New World? I pointed out in the original post that the most powerful nation to have ever walked the earth just happens to preside there, on a gigantic landmass whose existence they knew nothing about prior to the ISOT. However, the next round of questions on their minds will no doubt concern how it was discovered as late as it was and the gradual, highly contested process by which it was eventually settled (Columbus and his crew weren't the first to land there, I know). Not to mention how the United States went from a collection of rebellious British colonies to the reigning global superpower in less than three-hundred years as its own, sovereign nation.
Britain, Gaul and Spain forging some of the world's greatest empires aside, what might they make of other nation-states and distinct cultural identities that have emerged since Rome's collapse? Russia is the first that comes to mind for me, but there are no doubt others (such as India and maybe also Mongolia). The sheer size that the Mongol Empire reached thanks to Genghis Khan's conquests will be of note to them, even if they don't necessarily appreciate the fact that it overshadowed Rome in terms of territory taken (though in fairness, it did disintegrate into separate Khanates much faster). For those "successor societies" that'd be more familiar to to the Greeks and Romans, there's also the various German states that took shape over the centuries before their final unification in the 1870s; that's certainly not something to gloss over--and for more reasons than one, if you know what I mean.
There's a hell of a lot of 'history' that post-dates them and some of them will have interest in that. Possibly only really those who are historians are likely to be interested pass the 'bad' bits about the fall of their empire. After all its not something they can do anything about it and assorted 'barbarians' who came after them may be of minimal interest.
With the US there might be some more interest, both because its the current super-power and because the founders of the US seem to have based some of their ideas on the Roman Republic and some of the Romans could see parallels. A state that wins independence from a foreign ruler and expands rapidly to form a large empire then steadily surpasses every other nation - although their views on developments with China could be interesting. Shouldn't be surprised however if many/most are puzzled than the US hasn't simply nuked China into oblivion, because that's almost certainly what any Roman ruler would do to a potential rival when they had the power to and because they would struggle to understand the wider political and ecological impacts of such actions.
They would be able to tell us a lot about ancient religions in the regions they have experience of - although we're going to have to watch for some bias probably occurring in some cases. Most especially probably religion inside Rome itself and a lot of information about key figures of their time and earlier which has since been lost. Although again we would have to check data because there could be bias or simply their education was incomplete. For instance a recent defeated rival to the current emperor is unlikely to have a fair press in what they were told.
Steve
Those all sound like fair points to me, though I do think there are some caveats worth noting. First, even though the centuries of history leading up to the present may not generate much interest to a bunch of Greeks and Romans just figuring out how to use a light switch, there will still be historical references they ought to become familiar with if they intend to get very far in the wider world. For instance, performing the Roman salute pretty much anywhere in the Western World won't go down well, and chances are they'd at least like to know why (hence necessitating a quick explanation of who the Nazis were and why they remain so reviled nowadays). Because of the various "meta-disagreements" this would likely raise--namely the moral imperative behind us trying them for butchering civilians en masse or gobbling up other countries without provocation--some measure of historical education will probably emerge anyway. Or if not that, a list of expectations the Greeks and Romans are to adhere to, now that they're being held accountable to the international community (who won't allow them to develop nukes and will probably slap Versailles-level limitations on their armed forces, which they'd have much more power to enforce if so inclined).
Granted, they almost surely won't take uptimer demands at face value. By and large, I expect them to vocally protest concepts like gender equality or the abolition of slavery, with more hostile elements of the population probably resorting to violence in order to stymie the flow of uptimer ideas into their little settlement in the Mediterranean. Moreover, even if they don't behave as terrorist extremists, I also imagine that the more moralistic figures of the era will play a leading role in efforts to "preserve the old ways", though exactly what means they'd be willing to resort to due to the ancients' far lower standards as to what counts as "going too far" seems more debatable to me. Being more impressionable and (presumably) open-minded compared to their elders, the young may be more receptive to what we uptimers have to offer, though their calls for reform will be knowingly and deliberately quelled by the authorities and older generations who berate them about "knowing their place". If the more adaptable and pragmatic elements of Greco-Roman society win out, then I can see attempts to "meet modernity halfway", such as instituting legal equality for women while still championing traditional gender roles as a general social expectation or teaching students modern trade languages like English and Chinese once a generation or two has passed. Them being rather full of themselves on a cultural level, they'll still bemoan the fact that Latin and Greek no longer command that kind of prestige, religious and scientific usage notwithstanding).
However, I'm also curious about whether the fact that the uptimers calling for these reforms are the same people who all this wield all this magical technology that has preserved their food, made indoor plumbing possible, and cut child mortality rates down to impossibly low numbers will make the Greeks and Romans think to themselves, "Hey...maybe they have some views worth considering after all". Or, maybe they'll opt to keep the advancements while shunning our social mores, while the arch-conservatives among them want nothing to do with anything modern no matter what. Even if it remains confined to just the Mediterranean island they share together, there's considerable room for these divisions to spiral into a Greco-Roman culture war that make the Sixties look tame.
Another question that's been on my mind lately is whether younger Greeks and Romans will want to travel and immigrate into the outside world. I foresee some significant problems here as well, such as the more right-wing and nationalistic elements of Europe railing against the "savage primitives on their doorstep" or the Greco-Roman authorities clamping down to prevent people from leaving. Coupled with the the power that Roman parents had over their children (I'm not sure if it was similar for the Greeks), this could pose a host of legal issues for fathers who won't allow their kids to leave. For those adult children that miraculously win their freedom, there's probably on so much they can do with it at first--not speaking uptimer languages or understanding the ins and outs of twenty-first century life beyond what they can glean from books will tend to do that. Uptimer authorities might also require immunization and a host of documents they don't have so that they're clear to enter uptimer territory, in which they're likely to receive some very...mixed reception.
Maybe exploitative businesses will use them as cheap labor, while increasingly pro-immigration political parties vie to snatch up their votes (though how much these would count for due to the massive population differentials between the ancient world and the present, I don't know). Those with a keen interest in history and the Classics will probably congeal around any Greeks and Romans they can find in a rather creepy manner, while the more academic circles seek them out for interviews and other forms of testimony--something that more educated and astute downtimer migrants could try and capitalize on. The more xenophobic elements of the electorate will scapegoat them and seek to pass all sorts of restrictions beyond those that'd have arise already, and I do hope the best for any good and honest Greek or Roman migrants who manages to get on their bad side.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 30, 2020 15:15:58 GMT
Zyobot , By things like how they interact with other nations, wouldn't be allowed to develop nukes especially and some of the other mentions how many people are you talking of being brought to the modern age? Initially I was thinking you meant say a few dozen or possibly hundred people but it sounds more like possibly entire chunks of the empire?
One thing we also haven't mentioned so far, although its a common issue in such ISOTs, namely disease. Hopefully we can avoid any pandemics affecting either group.
While looking at the recently posted Star Destroyer v modern US military thread, at the end one of the videos displayed was on this very subject but clicked on the wrong thing and can't find the damned video now. Was this something you had seen or inspired this thread?
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 4, 2020 21:43:11 GMT
Zyobot , By things like how they interact with other nations, wouldn't be allowed to develop nukes especially and some of the other mentions how many people are you talking of being brought to the modern age? Initially I was thinking you meant say a few dozen or possibly hundred people but it sounds more like possibly entire chunks of the empire?
One thing we also haven't mentioned so far, although its a common issue in such ISOTs, namely disease. Hopefully we can avoid any pandemics affecting either group.
While looking at the recently posted Star Destroyer v modern US military thread, at the end one of the videos displayed was on this very subject but clicked on the wrong thing and can't find the damned video now. Was this something you had seen or inspired this thread?
Steve
Apologies, I wasn't completely clear the first time around. I suppose that a pair of twin islands, each teeming with several tens of thousands of Greeks or Romans respectively, materializes in the middle of the Adriatic Sea (the waters between modern Italy and Greece, in other words). ASB also hand-waves whatever geological and climate disruptions that'd otherwise occur, which ensures that the world stays focused on the new arrivals as their most pressing new concern. But no, the video you mention had no impact on my decision to start this thread, nor had I watched it beforehand.
Returning to the scenario itself, an interesting thought that once occurred to me is that somewhere out there, there's some online content creator(s) who'll post a parody of Billy Joel's We Didn't Start the Fire, except it'd summarize the history between Rome's sacking and the present day. Summing up nearly two-thousand years in a music video only a few minutes long would be quite a task, and whoever delivers on it certainly won't get to cover everything. But somewhere out there is an enterprising soul(s) who's willing to meet that challenge. How Greco-Roman audiences would react to it is another matter entirely, however.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 5, 2020 14:36:37 GMT
Zyobot , By things like how they interact with other nations, wouldn't be allowed to develop nukes especially and some of the other mentions how many people are you talking of being brought to the modern age? Initially I was thinking you meant say a few dozen or possibly hundred people but it sounds more like possibly entire chunks of the empire?
One thing we also haven't mentioned so far, although its a common issue in such ISOTs, namely disease. Hopefully we can avoid any pandemics affecting either group.
While looking at the recently posted Star Destroyer v modern US military thread, at the end one of the videos displayed was on this very subject but clicked on the wrong thing and can't find the damned video now. Was this something you had seen or inspired this thread?
Steve
Apologies, I wasn't completely clear the first time around. I suppose that a pair of twin islands, each teeming with several tens of thousands of Greeks or Romans respectively, materializes in the middle of the Adriatic Sea (the waters between modern Italy and Greece, in other words). ASB also hand-waves whatever geological and climate disruptions that'd otherwise occur, which ensures that the world stays focused on the new arrivals as their most pressing new concern. But no, the video you mention had no impact on my decision to start this thread, nor had I watched it beforehand.
Returning to the scenario itself, an interesting thought that once occurred to me is that somewhere out there, there's some online content creator(s) who'll post a parody of Billy Joel's We Didn't Start the Fire, except it'd summarize the history between Rome's sacking and the present day. Summing up nearly two-thousand years in a music video only a few minutes long would be quite a task, and whoever delivers on it certainly won't get to cover everything. But somewhere out there is an enterprising soul(s) who's willing to meet that challenge. How Greco-Roman audiences would react to it is another matter entirely, however.
OK thanks for clarifying. That would make it somewhat more interesting and complex. I suspect a lot of them would want to 'return' to Rome, Greece or Constantinople and would be disappointed/shocked at how their former homes had changed.
Technically it would be the Ionian Sea if the islands are between Italy and Greece but makes no great difference. Provided of course that the up-time nations don't seek to claim the new lands. [Suspect Italy would be less interested but Greece might be more likely to have such a desire].
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 5, 2020 15:22:25 GMT
Apologies, I wasn't completely clear the first time around. I suppose that a pair of twin islands, each teeming with several tens of thousands of Greeks or Romans respectively, materializes in the middle of the Adriatic Sea (the waters between modern Italy and Greece, in other words). ASB also hand-waves whatever geological and climate disruptions that'd otherwise occur, which ensures that the world stays focused on the new arrivals as their most pressing new concern. But no, the video you mention had no impact on my decision to start this thread, nor had I watched it beforehand.
Returning to the scenario itself, an interesting thought that once occurred to me is that somewhere out there, there's some online content creator(s) who'll post a parody of Billy Joel's We Didn't Start the Fire, except it'd summarize the history between Rome's sacking and the present day. Summing up nearly two-thousand years in a music video only a few minutes long would be quite a task, and whoever delivers on it certainly won't get to cover everything. But somewhere out there is an enterprising soul(s) who's willing to meet that challenge. How Greco-Roman audiences would react to it is another matter entirely, however.
OK thanks for clarifying. That would make it somewhat more interesting and complex. I suspect a lot of them would want to 'return' to Rome, Greece or Constantinople and would be disappointed/shocked at how their former homes had changed.
Technically it would be the Ionian Sea if the islands are between Italy and Greece but makes no great difference. Provided of course that the up-time nations don't seek to claim the new lands. [Suspect Italy would be less interested but Greece might be more likely to have such a desire].
Steve
My bad, I misstated the exact spot where the twin islands show up. Even if there are plenty of ancient Greeks and Romans longing to return home, I concur that a glance at the fate of their nations may dissuade them from doing so--Italy now being a second-rate power, while Greece has suffered some recent economic turmoil. Given their lack of modern sensibilities, I'm sure that the feeling will be mutual on the part of the uptimers who live in those places. Conversely, I can imagine their surprise once they learn of how Britain and Germany have become mainline European powers since the time they were ISOTed from. Not to mention the existence of the European Union, though it's been facing its share of backlash and strain lately (e.g. Brexit).
As it applies to their corner of the continent, the political implications of Greece taking the twin islands by force should prove interesting. I can see people demanding that modern authorities put a stop to slavery, crucifixion and abandoning/killing unwanted babies--things that any civilized person would agree with at least in principle. However, it also means that they'll have to occupy islands inhabited by tens of thousands of resistant Greeks and Romans who'll need their own version of de-Nazification so that they're brought up to speed with twenty-first century lifestyles and are given the facilities and infrastructure to make them a reality. In which case, future generations will grow up learning how out-of-step their forefathers were with contemporary values, while their elders will bemoan how "women no longer know their place" and that "national pride has been replaced with degenerate self-hatred".
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 6, 2020 15:43:15 GMT
Now that the parameters we're starting out with have been cleared up, another aspect of this scenario that's been on my mind is how the Greeks and Romans might learn today's languages? I'm sure it's possible for more linguistically inclined downtimers to learn in principle, though the fact that they have no scholars or universities who know about them from the get-go means that they'll need uptimer help to get started. This also assumes they're even willing to take it, which is debatable thanks to conservative backlash on the part of more moralistic, culturally "purist" elements of the Greco-Roman population. Knowing them, our languages will at least peripherally skirt into their line of attack, and probably for misguided reasons like how learning them allows their people to make sense of "degenerate" uptimer media and will lead to lots of "strange" foreign loanwords worming their way into their "undefiled" Greek/Latin. Even if for whatever reason they don't put up much of a fight in that respect, the fact that they maintain a cultural superiority complex probably means that they'd mourn how Greek/Latin don't command the same prestige as was once the case (continued legal, religious and scientific usage notwithstanding). If, however, more than a handful of Greeks and Romans were in a position to learn, then I think it'd prove a much more interesting experience than a typical case of "native speaker of Language A is currently learning Language B". Because I don't know much about the other major trade languages there are to master--Spanish, Arabic, Mandarin Chinese, etc.--most of my initial thoughts here will cover English. In that case, some of the first key points that come to mind for me are grammar, spelling, and vocabulary. Latin being an inflected language where words change depending on how they're being used in different contexts, I imagine that sticking to English's more analytic word order would be rather foreign. As would its definite/indefinite articles, distinct lack of grammatical gender, and a tense system that acts in rather interesting ways sometimes. How much experience they have with those sorts of linguistic conventions heading into this scenario (due to my unfamiliarity with whatever Germanic languages they'd have known about), I'm not sure. English vocabulary also strikes me as a mixed bag for them. There's plenty of English words with Latin and Greek roots, but English has also borrowed words from all over the world thanks to British (and maybe to some extent American) exploration, vastly increasing the array of words that there are to memorize. Plus, there are plenty of terms and concepts that the Romans had no straightforward equivalent for, such as airplane or television; those would prove hard to explain for reasons other than simply being easily lost in translation, I'd think. Nonetheless, I imagine that English's uniquely "open" and "innovative" tendencies will be of great notice to Greco-Roman linguists who bother studying it, though whether they'd see it as largely positive, negative or not really give a damn may depend on the linguist in question, as I don't know whether Latin and/or Greek ever cultivated similar reputations while they were still the great lingua francas of their heyday. For those Greeks and Romans who do successfully learn it, I wonder how their accents might sound? I know less about Greece, but I'm fairly certain that upwards of ninety-nine percent of Anglophonic Romans won't speak with conspicuous British accents (much to the surprise of the average uptimer on the street, unfortunately). Perhaps the rather silly Open University video below will provide beginners with some useful (though nonessential) context. As will The History of English Podcast, for those who want something more comprehensive. History of English (combined)
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 7, 2020 15:23:06 GMT
I suspect that initial communications would be with up-timers speaking to them in Latin and Greek. Probably also causing confusion and out rage at how much both languages have chanced from their classical source. Later a lot of the down-timers will seek to learn an up time language, which may be English because of its universality or up-time Greek or Italian because they still have a basic common root and possibly they might feel at least some kinship with the modern people of their homelands.
Television would have to be explained to them, both in terms of what it actually is and for a rarer number possibly attempts at explaining how it works but they would probably remind you that the word itself comes from two roots, one Greek and the other Latin.
It would all depend on how things develop but if nothing else new generations would need to learn an up-time language so they can more easily communicate with the rest of the world and the more adventurous are likely to want to do this ASAP. They simply don't have enough of a population base to maintain their down-time language as a viable one as far as I can see.
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 7, 2020 17:00:44 GMT
I suspect that initial communications would be with up-timers speaking to them in Latin and Greek. Probably also causing confusion and out rage at how much both languages have chanced from their classical source. Later a lot of the down-timers will seek to learn an up time language, which may be English because of its universality or up-time Greek or Italian because they still have a basic common root and possibly they might feel at least some kinship with the modern people of their homelands. Yeah, that figures. Nonetheless, the fact that Italian and Greek don't command the same universality as the other lingua francas I mentioned probably means that it's in their interest to learn at least one of those. English seems like a likely choice in that case, even if it's not the first uptimer language they learn. Still, given its unprecedented global dominance in ways ranging from the total number of Anglophones (though not native speakers) to the ubiquity of English-language media, it's a pretty reasonable move. How ancient Roman/Greek accents will sound once the first batch of them have become fluent, I'm curious to speculate on. Television would have to be explained to them, both in terms of what it actually is and for a rarer number possibly attempts at explaining how it works but they would probably remind you that the word itself comes from two roots, one Greek and the other Latin. That's not something I thought of the first time around, and you're not the only one to point it out (I posted this same thread on AH.com as well). But the familiar etymology of words like television isn't the point, so much as the fact that the Greco-Romans' lack of an equivalent word due to the fact that they don't have a concept of it to begin with means that such terms would require explanation that goes beyond mere translation. As would other distinctly modern terms like smartphone, firearm, nuclear, and others. How downtimers might go about Latinizing/Grecizing these words when they eventually reach their islands, I don't know. It would all depend on how things develop but if nothing else new generations would need to learn an up-time language so they can more easily communicate with the rest of the world and the more adventurous are likely to want to do this ASAP. They simply don't have enough of a population base to maintain their down-time language as a viable one as far as I can see. I was also thinking that, but I do anticipate certain hurdles beyond the problems automatically associated with uptimer-downtimer language barriers to start out with. The more reactionary elements of the population I mentioned earlier would attempt (but in the long term likely fail) to stop it, namely more conservative paterfamilias' who will prevent their kids from leaving. Them being a similarly patriarchal society, I expect many ancient Greek fathers to act the same way. What you mention about Latin and Greek as they were spoken in the (Western) Roman Empire's twilight years does raise an interesting point. Because while this scenario presents a golden opportunity for historians, linguists and Classicists to perfect their incomplete knowledge of how these languages were originally spoken, the fact that they'll naturally die out within a few generations may incense reactionary Greeks and Romans to aggressively preserve them while they still can. By which I mean vocally agitating against learning uptimer languages, as well as staunchly resisting any loanwords or other foreign quirks that almost invariably creep into the Greek/Latin they speak. Cato the Elder may not be here to stymie uptimer influences of all kinds from "corrupting" the youth and "diluting" the culture, but there are always plenty of like-minded "family value" moralists who will do so regardless.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 7, 2020 18:52:22 GMT
I suspect that initial communications would be with up-timers speaking to them in Latin and Greek. Probably also causing confusion and out rage at how much both languages have chanced from their classical source. Later a lot of the down-timers will seek to learn an up time language, which may be English because of its universality or up-time Greek or Italian because they still have a basic common root and possibly they might feel at least some kinship with the modern people of their homelands. Yeah, that figures. Nonetheless, the fact that Italian and Greek don't command the same universality as the other lingua francas I mentioned probably means that it's in their interest to learn at least one of those. English seems like a likely choice in that case, even if it's not the first uptimer language they learn. Still, given its unprecedented global dominance in ways ranging from the total number of Anglophones (though not native speakers) to the ubiquity of English-language media, it's a pretty reasonable move. How ancient Roman/Greek accents will sound once the first batch of them have become fluent, I'm curious to speculate on. Television would have to be explained to them, both in terms of what it actually is and for a rarer number possibly attempts at explaining how it works but they would probably remind you that the word itself comes from two roots, one Greek and the other Latin. That's not something I thought of the first time around, and you're not the only one to point it out (I posted this same thread on AH.com as well). But the familiar etymology of words like television isn't the point, so much as the fact that the Greco-Romans' lack of an equivalent word due to the fact that they don't have a concept of it to begin with means that such terms would require explanation that goes beyond mere translation. As would other distinctly modern terms like smartphone, firearm, nuclear, and others. How downtimers might go about Latinizing/Grecizing these words when they eventually reach their islands, I don't know. It would all depend on how things develop but if nothing else new generations would need to learn an up-time language so they can more easily communicate with the rest of the world and the more adventurous are likely to want to do this ASAP. They simply don't have enough of a population base to maintain their down-time language as a viable one as far as I can see. I was also thinking that, but I do anticipate certain hurdles beyond the problems automatically associated with uptimer-downtimer language barriers to start out with. The more reactionary elements of the population I mentioned earlier would attempt (but in the long term likely fail) to stop it, namely more conservative paterfamilias' who will prevent their kids from leaving. Them being a similarly patriarchal society, I expect many ancient Greek fathers to act the same way. What you mention about Latin and Greek as they were spoken in the (Western) Roman Empire's twilight years does raise an interesting point. Because while this scenario presents a golden opportunity for historians, linguists and Classicists to perfect their incomplete knowledge of how these languages were originally spoken, the fact that they'll naturally die out within a few generations may incense reactionary Greeks and Romans to aggressively preserve them while they still can. By which I mean vocally agitating against learning uptimer languages, as well as staunchly resisting any loanwords or other foreign quirks that almost invariably creep into the Greek/Latin they speak. Cato the Elder may not be here to stymie uptimer influences of all kinds from "corrupting" the youth and "diluting" the culture, but there are always plenty of like-minded "family value" moralists who will do so regardless.
Good points. In terms of lacking terms in their native language for many modern items and ideas it makes me think of the efforts in Israel to update Hebrew to give it such terminology. Especially if they hear about that it might inspire some of them to try something similar. However it sounds like their not numerous enough to make such a project effective, if its only a few thousand each of Greek and Latin speakers. Always assuming that women and children have been brought along as well as assorted engineers, politicians etc.
English may seem the obvious choice but that doesn't make it the definite one. Either/both communities may seek to align more with modern Greece or Italy, and the latter especially is likely to have enough population and resources for its own language to have suitable web space and activities for instance.
One other thing of course is that while the last days of the empire seems to be dominated by very reactionary elements its possible that some may be a lot more open. After all in the west it seems that many were willing, if only out of necessity, to come to terms as far as practical with the assorted Germanic tribes taking over provinces. Just as many of those tribes showed a lot of respect for Roman symbols and traditions. Plus of course their in the midst of drastic religious change as Christianity was only one of the eastern faiths to challenging the ancient pantheons. As such you could see many being a lot more open to new ideas and changes than might be expected.
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 8, 2020 13:52:14 GMT
Good points. In terms of lacking terms in their native language for many modern items and ideas it makes me think of the efforts in Israel to update Hebrew to give it such terminology. Especially if they hear about that it might inspire some of them to try something similar. However it sounds like their not numerous enough to make such a project effective, if its only a few thousand each of Greek and Latin speakers. Always assuming that women and children have been brought along as well as assorted engineers, politicians etc. Adapting uptimer words for their own languages might make sense if the whole of Greece and the Roman Empire were sent along, yes. Given the sheer amount of vocabulary that they have no easy equivalents for, though, I can see most of them probably creeping in without too much alteration (everyday words that they'll wind up using all the time notwithstanding, probably). English may seem the obvious choice but that doesn't make it the definite one. Either/both communities may seek to align more with modern Greece or Italy, and the latter especially is likely to have enough population and resources for its own language to have suitable web space and activities for instance. Perhaps not, though for those Greco-Romans seeking to do business internationally or travel to some Anglospheric country(s), mastering English would prove invaluable for them. That may not be as many downtimer Anglophones as I was initially projecting, but at least the more adventurous ones and somewhat wealthier people who can afford to travel long distances will learn it. Once they get become accustomed to modern Greek or Italian, I'm also curious as to whether they'll study other languages spoken locally? They'll almost certainly be other Indo-European ones like French and/or Spanish, which will also get them far in terms of international communication. How much room there is for them to become acquainted with Slavic languages, due to how that diaspora seems to mainly be concentrated in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, I'm not sure. But if places as new to them as Russia or Poland arouse much interest (and I'm sure they will), then some subset of the more adventurous ones may very well study those. The odds of them studying non-European languages like Arabic or Mandarin Chinese do evade me, but at least in the short term, my gut instinct leans towards them largely shelving those for now. Not only because of the "familiarity factor" that comes with mastering tongues descended from the ones you speak already, but also because of how far English and other European lingua francas will get you as is (rendering a working knowledge of Mandarin redundant for them in many cases). One other thing of course is that while the last days of the empire seems to be dominated by very reactionary elements its possible that some may be a lot more open. After all in the west it seems that many were willing, if only out of necessity, to come to terms as far as practical with the assorted Germanic tribes taking over provinces. Just as many of those tribes showed a lot of respect for Roman symbols and traditions. Plus of course their in the midst of drastic religious change as Christianity was only one of the eastern faiths to challenging the ancient pantheons. As such you could see many being a lot more open to new ideas and changes than might be expected. In principle, I can see your point. But in practice, I'm concerned that uptimer demands for the Greco-Romans to end their most outdated practices--crucifixion, slavery, systemic misogyny, abandoning/killing unwanted babies, and undoubtedly a host of others I'm missing--may make them a whole lot less receptive to what modern society brings to the table. True, we've certainly drawn inspiration from certain traditions of theirs and have come to view them as mighty and high-achieving civilizations for their time, but acknowledgement of what we think of as their achievements isn't the same as respecting their cultures as a whole. And if we tell them to shut it down or else as soon as introductions are out of the way, that'll give the moralists and their demagogue spokesmen the ammunition they need to whip everyday Greeks and Romans into a frenzy and spur a wave of arch-reactionary doubling down and anti-uptimer scaremongering. That, and at least Christianity was something they were at least somewhat used to at that point in time. But for entirely new conventions like human rights, they won't have nearly as much before being brief introduced and expected to embrace them shortly thereafter (which is very unrealistic, especially when they don't think you'll extend their cultures the same courtesy). In short, I doubt that they'll be as flexible and open-minded as you anticipate--even if I wish that the opposite were true instead.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 8, 2020 20:38:45 GMT
Zyobot , On your last point there is definitely an issue as some of the behaviour the classical populations were used to are abhorrent to most/all of the modern west. What I was referring to was that in some other ways they might not be as conservative in accepting new ideas as we think.
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 16, 2020 15:36:33 GMT
Because of our obvious sheer technological prowess from day one, I wonder what they'll make of footage of this legendary moment in our history (and are given proper context so that they know what it's capturing, as well)?
Restored Apollo 11 Moonwalk - Original NASA EVA Mission Video - Walking on the Moon
At that point, I've a feeling that more sensible Greeks and Romans will swallow their pride and realize that their achievements were not, in fact, the apex of what human civilization is capable of. Not when the dominant power this era was the first to land on the freaking Moon, and while directing less total computing power to that undertaking than our individual smartphones possess, to boot!
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 17, 2020 9:20:21 GMT
Because of our obvious sheer technological prowess from day one, I wonder what they'll make of footage of this legendary moment in our history (and are given proper context so that they know what it's capturing, as well)? Restored Apollo 11 Moonwalk - Original NASA EVA Mission Video - Walking on the MoonAt that point, I've a feeling that more sensible Greeks and Romans will swallow their pride and realize that their achievements were not, in fact, the apex of what human civilization is capable of. Not when the dominant power this era was the first to land on the freaking Moon, and while directing less total computing power to that undertaking than our individual smartphones possess, to boot!
I doubt if many/any of them will have any real concept of modern computing power. The more religious, both pagan and Christian might be appalled by the intrusion on divine territory but others will no doubt be fascinated by the development and the knowledge of the rest of the Solar system. Then try explaining to then the size of our galaxy and add it its only one of many, many millions that have been observed and I think a state of shock will occur for a while. As well as how inhospitable the other planets are, probably especially Venus. Showing them the outer planets in a basic telescope, which they should understand fairly easily would be a more reasonable eye opener for them. The major moons of Jupiter, the rings of Saturn and the two outer planets they knew nothing about would interest them. Finding out how its only by chance we have such bright rings around Saturn would also be an humbling experience.
Some of the more capable might be asking the same questions as some of us have been this last 50 years as to why those mission haven't been followed up by actual settlement with permanent bases on Luna if not further.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 17, 2020 18:21:11 GMT
I doubt if many/any of them will have any real concept of modern computing power. That was a point I raised in the AH.com version of this thread. It's one thing to grasp cars as gas/electricity-powered transportation machines, it's another to wrap their heads around more abstract things like computing power. One person did make a good point that the internet can be explained as a means of exchanging all sorts of messages and media via electricity and our devices, though--which is still a reductive explanation, but considering that this is ancient Greco-Romans who we're talking about, it's probably a good start. The more religious, both pagan and Christian might be appalled by the intrusion on divine territory but others will no doubt be fascinated by the development and the knowledge of the rest of the Solar system. Then try explaining to then the size of our galaxy and add it its only one of many, many millions that have been observed and I think a state of shock will occur for a while. As well as how inhospitable the other planets are, probably especially Venus. Showing them the outer planets in a basic telescope, which they should understand fairly easily would be a more reasonable eye opener for them. The major moons of Jupiter, the rings of Saturn and the two outer planets they knew nothing about would interest them. Finding out how its only by chance we have such bright rings around Saturn would also be an humbling experience.
Some of the more capable might be asking the same questions as some of us have been this last 50 years as to why those mission haven't been followed up by actual settlement with permanent bases on Luna if not further. Well, considering how the arch-conservatives would bitch and moan about just about anything and everything "new" under the sun, I suppose anger at our "intrusion into divine territory" is something to be expected from them. How they'd go about intellectually defending their position, even though their attempts to thwart it would be a lost cause from the get-go, I don't have high hopes for. For the more well-educated members in their ranks, perhaps they'd do well to become acquainted with all the advancements in scientific knowledge and philosophical reasoning before trying to argue against space exploration--and even then, a good share of them may change their minds as they learn more. Since you mention what we now know about the Solar System and greater universe as a whole, I'm also curious as to what they'd make of other space-exploration attempts aside from the Moon landings? It may be old news by our standards, but Sputnik alone is bound to impress them for a) being an artificial satellite and b) getting off the ground at all, even if human flight has been around for decades at the time it was launched. Never mind the Space Race in general, with even less earth-shattering feats of engineering--like probes, rovers and shuttles--not escaping their notice, either. There's also the fact that space exploration has since become more commercially and geopolitically competitive, especially with China, India and the European Union becoming new players in a once-dipolar game between the United States and Soviet Russia. And, since we're talking about their likely reactions to space, maybe we should show them this and see how they react. I'd also suggest showing them space-themed movies like Apollo 13 and The Martian, though I'm not sure how true-to-former the former is. That, and the idea of moving pictures with accompanying sound is yet another rabbit hole that deserves its own, separate discussion--which I'd be more than happy to have here, mind you .
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 18, 2020 11:19:04 GMT
Zyobot , Yes their reaction to the images of Earth would be interesting. That is something they should be able to take in, once many areas are explained to them although how relatively 'small' compared to the planet as a whole the Roman empire was. Expect a number would be very interesting in those 'new' lands they would never even have rumours of in their time.
Movies and the idea of moving images and representations of people, both real and fake would be an interesting concept for them let alone what they actually contain. I think Apollo 13 isn't too far off, especially for Hollywood and they might find the Martian rather too artificial. Possibly also some might argue it was stupid risking so many lives to save one. How they react to some of the fiction put out could be interesting, including some of the stories based on classical mythology - i.e. some of the Jason and the Argonauts and Hercules presentations in films. What they would think of more flashy presentations such as the Troy one a decade or so back as well.
I mentioned religious concerns by both Christians and Pagans because I know even as recently as the 19thC in the west there was criticism of progress and technology taking humanity into areas supposed to be reserved for god so your likely to see some such reaction there. That they can do bugger all about it is largely beside the point. A number might decide to go a more sectare route in reaction, deciding both faith systems are deeply flawed.
Steve
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