USA of 2002 transported to 1942

[miletus12]

Sept 28, 2020 15:20:42 GMT ssgtc said:

The war ends in 6 months. Tops. The M1 Abrams is immune to every weapon the axis has short of battleship ship caliber guns. A modern platoon has more firepower than a WWII company. Body armor and optics will give American infantry a huge advantage on the battlefield. Comms are a million times more advanced. American bombers will be dropping precision guided weapons from 40,000+ feet, well out of range of axis fighters and AAA. USAF and USN fighters will sweep axis air forces from the skies in days. In short, it's a bloodbath.

Where will the depleted uranium, integrated circuit chips and rare earths come from to build the Abrams? Not to mention the specialized ceramics and the alloy steels which were imported from overseas?


The US has to build inside its own territory and find supply replacements for many line items that 2002 Europe or the Pacific Rim countries supplied as raw stock materials or subcomponents to computers, GUNs (Germany and Italy), fire control systems (UK), rockets (Scandinavian countries) and alloys stocks (India). 

Not to mention software support (Japan), 3D graphics (France) and MISSILES seeker systems, (Norway) supplied.  
    

[lordroel]

Dec 3, 2021 20:59:07 GMT miletus12 said:

Sept 28, 2020 15:20:42 GMT ssgtc said:

The war ends in 6 months. Tops. The M1 Abrams is immune to every weapon the axis has short of battleship ship caliber guns. A modern platoon has more firepower than a WWII company. Body armor and optics will give American infantry a huge advantage on the battlefield. Comms are a million times more advanced. American bombers will be dropping precision guided weapons from 40,000+ feet, well out of range of axis fighters and AAA. USAF and USN fighters will sweep axis air forces from the skies in days. In short, it's a bloodbath.

Where will the depleted uranium, integrated circuit chips and rare earths come from to build the Abrams? Not to mention the specialized ceramics and the alloy steels which were imported from overseas?


The US has to build inside its own territory and find supply replacements for many line items that 2002 Europe or the Pacific Rim countries supplied as raw stock materials or subcomponents to computers, GUNs (Germany and Italy), fire control systems (UK), rockets (Scandinavian countries) and alloys stocks (India). 

Not to mention software support (Japan), 3D graphics (France) and MISSILES seeker systems, (Norway) supplied.  
    

Think we need to scrap a lot of things and the United State might have to go old school for some things if they want and can defeat the Axis.

[miletus12]

Dec 4, 2021 8:58:30 GMT lordroel said:

Dec 3, 2021 20:59:07 GMT miletus12 said:

Where will the depleted uranium, integrated circuit chips and rare earths come from to build the Abrams? Not to mention the specialized ceramics and the alloy steels which were imported from overseas?


The US has to build inside its own territory and find supply replacements for many line items that 2002 Europe or the Pacific Rim countries supplied as raw stock materials or subcomponents to computers, GUNs (Germany and Italy), fire control systems (UK), rockets (Scandinavian countries) and alloys stocks (India). 

Not to mention software support (Japan), 3D graphics (France) and MISSILES seeker systems, (Norway) supplied.  
    

Think we need to scrap a lot of things and the United State might have to go old school for some things if they want and can defeat the Axis.

I think the US could build its own computers and rockets and baseline ammunition. The alloy steels would require exploiting accessible foreign allied resource sites such as northern Australia and western South America (Atacapan region) for the added trace elements. Rare earths and pitchblende is either the Congo in Africa or Arctic Canada. 

Guidance logics and sensors might have to revert to some vacuum tube technology. Jet engines means Inconel and Canada again.

The real hangups are ceramics and tungsten. I suppose the Americans could look at their 1950s "plastics armor" and use that or stick with tungsten pellets if they can get it from China via the Hump to equip their tanks. 

During WWII the Americans used a lot of French designed WWI or even 1890s designs for their WWII artillery. 80% of US tanks used some version of the French 75mm gun of 1897 fame. Other US tank guns were descended from US Navy guns designed in the 1890s. 

Modern 2002 era US artillery was either British or German derived. If unavailable, then the US would have to dust off their own 1950s tube artillery and deploy those tubes.   

 
 

 

[lordroel]

Dec 4, 2021 11:34:49 GMT miletus12 said:

Dec 4, 2021 8:58:30 GMT lordroel said:

Think we need to scrap a lot of things and the United State might have to go old school for some things if they want and can defeat the Axis.

I think the US could build its own computers and rockets and baseline ammunition. The alloy steels would require exploiting accessible foreign allied resource sites such as northern Australia and western South America (Atacapan region) for the added trace elements. Rare earths and pitchblende is either the Congo in Africa or Arctic Canada. 

Guidance logics and sensors might have to revert to some vacuum tube technology. Jet engines means Inconel and Canada again.

The real hangups are ceramics and tungsten. I suppose the Americans could look at their 1950s "plastics armor" and use that or stick with tungsten pellets if they can get it from China via the Hump to equip their tanks. 

During WWII the Americans used a lot of French designed WWI or even 1890s designs for their WWII artillery. 80% of US tanks used some version of the French 75mm gun of 1897 fame. Other US tank guns were descended from US Navy guns designed in the 1890s. 

Modern 2002 era US artillery was either British or German derived. If unavailable, then the US would have to dust off their own 1950s tube artillery and deploy those tubes.   

 
 

 

The United States has to look, what is needed to stop the Axis without nuking them.

The 2002 United states Army does not need Abrams to stop 1942s Panzer IVs, heck i think the Bradley Fighting Vehicle can do that job if needed.

[stevep]

Dec 4, 2021 11:57:05 GMT lordroel said:

Dec 4, 2021 11:34:49 GMT miletus12 said:

I think the US could build its own computers and rockets and baseline ammunition. The alloy steels would require exploiting accessible foreign allied resource sites such as northern Australia and western South America (Atacapan region) for the added trace elements. Rare earths and pitchblende is either the Congo in Africa or Arctic Canada. 

Guidance logics and sensors might have to revert to some vacuum tube technology. Jet engines means Inconel and Canada again.

The real hangups are ceramics and tungsten. I suppose the Americans could look at their 1950s "plastics armor" and use that or stick with tungsten pellets if they can get it from China via the Hump to equip their tanks. 

During WWII the Americans used a lot of French designed WWI or even 1890s designs for their WWII artillery. 80% of US tanks used some version of the French 75mm gun of 1897 fame. Other US tank guns were descended from US Navy guns designed in the 1890s. 

Modern 2002 era US artillery was either British or German derived. If unavailable, then the US would have to dust off their own 1950s tube artillery and deploy those tubes.   

 
 

 

The United States has to look, what is needed to stop the Axis without nuking them.

The 2002 United states Army does not need Abrams to stop 1942s Panzer IVs, heck i think the Bradley Fighting Vehicle can do that job if needed.

  It would take some time to deploy land and air based weapons, especially since 1942 Britain, the most obvious base, would have limited capacity for operating many a/c especially.  Also deploying fuel, spares and other equipment.  In fact the difference between 2002 containerized ships and 1942 freighters could cause serious problems for simply moving any materials between the 1942 and 2002 worlds'.

  The USN would be better off while spares and the like lasted.  Their forces could make a drastic difference in the battle of the Atlantic, hopefully avoiding much of the disaster of the 2nd Happy Time, especially using historical records.  Similarly the Pacific fleet operating from a modern Pearl - can't remember if Guam or Wake came along - could do a lot to screw over Japanese shipping, both merchant and naval.  Saving the Philippines or SE Asia would be more difficult as it really needs land based forces which would be difficult to deploy and retain in operations.

[lordroel]

Dec 4, 2021 13:33:04 GMT stevep said:

  It would take some time to deploy land and air based weapons, especially since 1942 Britain, the most obvious base, would have limited capacity for operating many a/c especially.  Also deploying fuel, spares and other equipment.  In fact the difference between 2002 containerized ships and 1942 freighters could cause serious problems for simply moving any materials between the 1942 and 2002 worlds'.

True, runways if they exist in the United Kingdom of 1942 are not able to handle 2002 planes.

[miletus12]

Dec 4, 2021 13:33:04 GMT stevep said:

  It would take some time to deploy land and air based weapons, especially since 1942 Britain, the most obvious base, would have limited capacity for operating many a/c especially.  Also deploying fuel, spares and other equipment.  In fact the difference between 2002 containerized ships and 1942 freighters could cause serious problems for simply moving any materials between the 1942 and 2002 worlds'.

1. The shock of time travel being set aside, the catastrophes of December 1941, still being in full effect and a different United States confronting the January 1, 1942 situation, one has the following problems:

A. Pearl Harbor.
B. British collapse in East Asia.
C. Philippine Islands.

One asks, does the US have the 1942 leadership or the 2002 leadership?

Where is the 2002 American army? Is it in Afghanistan and Iraq or has that army been magically recycled back to its barracks?

What about the navy?

What about the air force?

If the Americans have developmentally outstripped the rest of the global economies and they are 2002 level THERE without time travel and everyone else is stuck at 1942 levels of technology and politics and economics, then what is the Axis leadership smoking for drugs that they would risk war with what amounts to aliens from outer space?

The Americans can obviously do many things for which nobody in 1942 has an answer.

Fast attack boats with anti-ship missiles. Think about it. U-boat takes 30 seconds to dive. 2002 surface search radar picks up Mister U-boat. Harpoon on the way 20 seconds at Mach 0.8. No more U-boat.

Homing torpedoes? Savo Island will look a lot different. Mikawa will never know what hit him. Might suggest the same for Coral Sea. How will Takagi handle something like an F-18 Hornet with anti-ship missiles.

It has been speculated that the Bradley could handle German panzers? Who needs Bradleys? Just a TOW missile will be nightmare fuel enough. Operation Crusader has come and gone, but the results of Gazala would be "interesting" if Rommel ran into a TOW ambush during the Cauldron.

How about the air campaign from the Uk? How long will Germany last under Pershing IRBM bombardment? Why risk aircrews when the missiles will always get through?

Missiles, missiles and more missiles... Sidewinder is going to be a killer.

Cortez wished he had such a lopsided tech edge against the Aztecs.

 The USN would be better off while spares and the like lasted.  Their forces could make a drastic difference in the battle of the Atlantic, hopefully avoiding much of the disaster of the 2nd Happy Time, especially using historical records.  Similarly the Pacific fleet operating from a modern Pearl - can't remember if Guam or Wake came along - could do a lot to screw over Japanese shipping, both merchant and naval.  Saving the Philippines or SE Asia would be more difficult as it really needs land based forces which would be difficult to deploy and retain in operations.

If Germany can be hit from the UK by conventional warhead IRBM missiles and be pulverized, then think about a fleet of fission reactor powered submarines in the Pacific against the IJN and the Japanese merchant marine? The US would have to revert to the simpler to make NT 37 torpedo when the 1500 Mark 48s run out, but I figure 6 months by 12-18 boats and the Japanese are DONE.

Dec 4, 2021 16:28:48 GMT lordroel said:

True, runways if they exist in the United Kingdom of 1942 are not able to handle 2002 planes.

Caterpillar corporation and Red Horse Battalions. One week to install 4,000 meter runways on Salisbury plain. The UK has lots of rocks that can be portland cemented into 2,000 psi pavement. (Or launch pads, but with road mobile Pershing TELs and lots of paved roads, who needs launch pads?).   In the meantime the Luftwaffe gets to enjoy Harriers and Marine Aviation using BF 109s and FW 190s as manned target drones.  

[lordroel]

Dec 6, 2021 14:51:23 GMT miletus12 said:

Where is the 2002 American army? Is it in Afghanistan and Iraq or has that army been magically recycled back to its barracks?

Well lets ask the OP of the thread, gillan1220 what happened to all the overseas US forces.

[gillan1220]

miletus12 according to the original scenario, all overseas U.S. forces are magically teleported back to the CONUS.

EDIT: The administration here in George W. Bush and his cabinet.

[lordroel]

Dec 6, 2021 16:38:53 GMT gillan1220 said:

miletus12 according to the original scenario, all overseas U.S. forces are magically teleported back to the CONUS.

EDIT: The administration here in George W. Bush and his cabinet.

So the War on Terror changes into the War against the Axis.

[gillan1220]

Dec 6, 2021 17:02:04 GMT lordroel said:

Dec 6, 2021 16:38:53 GMT gillan1220 said:

miletus12 according to the original scenario, all overseas U.S. forces are magically teleported back to the CONUS.

EDIT: The administration here in George W. Bush and his cabinet.

So the War on Terror changes into the War against the Axis.

Yes, and with the U.S. mobilized for the War on Terror, should not be too long for a wartime economy to happen.

[lordroel]

Dec 6, 2021 17:03:59 GMT gillan1220 said:

Dec 6, 2021 17:02:04 GMT lordroel said:

So the War on Terror changes into the War against the Axis.

Yes, and with the U.S. mobilized for the War on Terror, should not be too long for a wartime economy to happen.

A wartime economy, i see a lot of protest going on. 

[gillan1220]

Dec 6, 2021 17:06:55 GMT lordroel said:

Dec 6, 2021 17:03:59 GMT gillan1220 said:

Yes, and with the U.S. mobilized for the War on Terror, should not be too long for a wartime economy to happen.

A wartime economy, i see a lot of protest going on. 

Not to mention too the conspiracy theorists going wild. 9/11 saw the truther movement. Now this will see a rise of other conspiracy theories.

The KKK and Neo-Nazis would probably be under FBI surveillance lest they get ideas.

[lordroel]

Dec 6, 2021 17:10:48 GMT gillan1220 said:

Dec 6, 2021 17:06:55 GMT lordroel said:

A wartime economy, i see a lot of protest going on. 

Not to mention too the conspiracy theorists going wild. 9/11 saw the truther movement. Now this will see a rise of other conspiracy theories.

The KKK and Neo-Nazis would probably be under FBI surveillance lest they get ideas.

Well from going from wannabe Al-Qaeda sympathizers to KKK and Neo-Nazis that is a big switch but necessary, one Neo-Nazis going to Berlin with a briefcase full of what OTL World War II was might cause some damage, but nothing compared with a flight of B-2s over Berlin can do.

[stevep]

   Guys

   Looking at the original post on www.changingthetimes.net it makes clear its a switch between 13th Mar 1942 and 13th Mar 2002.  Not sure of the significance of those dates - although checking the below it was the day that MacArthur, on his escape from Bataan "Cagayan on Mindanao Island" but that does have some impacts.  Also what may not have been made clear is that it affects only "the continental (i.e. lower 48 states)" which means that for the 1942 world Alaska, Hawaii and any other overseas territories as they were then are still in their 1942 mode.  As such the 2002 Hawaiian bases and ships there and presumably those at sea elsewhere aren't brought along.  I can't see anything about forces based overseas being returned home?  Also only those satellites above the US at the time of the ISOT are actually still about so vast bulk of the satellite system is lost.

  At this point in 1942 - looking at page 73 of Lordroel's WWII in real time, which includes the 13th March 42.  The Japanese are probing the Solomons prior to their 1st landings there and southern Burma has been lost while the last days are coming for the defenders of Bataan as the Japanese, having secured most of their primary gains in the south are moving units back to the Philippines to finish off the forces there.  There are regular heavy losses in American home waters and the Caribbean to the German and Italian subs operation in the region.  The Soviet offensives over the winter are petering out but German losses have been heavy over the winter.

  Thinking about it there are positives and negatives for the allies.

  The positives are that a much more powerful and advanced US is available and it also have a hell of a lot of information that will be very useful to the down-time powers.  Including if necessary nuclear weapons. 

  The negatives are that the 1942 allies have seen one of their most important powers has been removed from play and that will cause a lot of disruption until they can adjust to the new arrival and it to them.  This may be especially an issue in terms of logistic and force projection.  For instance I think most of the trans-oceanic shipping available to the US is no longer suitable for anywhere else in the world.  The giant container ships and even larger super-tankers are going to be incapable of docking anywhere else.  Or in most cases would have difficulty unloading their cargoes.  I suspect that for a while at least trans-Atlantic shipping might have to go by rail to Canada then be loaded onto down-time shipping at say Quebec or Halifax.  Similarly while up-time weaponry is very lethal other than some units with virtually unlimited range, such as nuclear subs, are unlikely to be able to play a role across an ocean.  However once they realise where they are the relatively small number of enemy subs in local waters should be fairly easy play.

  Miletus12's ideas about using some quickly established airfield's or other launch sites in the UK has potential but there might be supply and command and control issues, plus with satellites largely gone guidance might be an issue.  Probably more an issue with missiles than a/c?