Dark Earth: Castellan

[stevep]

Dec 24, 2020 11:46:44 GMT simon darkshade said:

The issue of Prince Charles came up in the 1966 Timeline entry:

November 14: Buckingham Palace announces that Charles, Prince of Wales, will join the Royal Navy after the completion of his schooling, followed by a period at university and service in the British Army and Royal Air Force

The Goon Show wouldn't exist in that same form, but there is still some basis for 1950s absurdity.

You are quite right on the 1960s satire/comedies, which partly came out of social changes in the late 1950s; the end of National Service and various roles in the Colonial Service was one driver for the Satire Boom in @, albeit not the only one. There isn't a Monty Python or TWTWTW or any of their ilk, although there is a basis for something like The Goodies in a slightly less subversive sense, as it flies under the radar by being aimed at a younger audience and being a "kid's show".

  Well that's a huge cultural loss compared to OTL and a probably with a lesser mental flexibility.  A world in which the Goodies are seen as too subversive is definitely one I would be uncomfortable with.

[simon darkshade]

I wouldn't quite put it at the huge cultural loss level, as I'm a bit more ambivalent about the tyranny of the present when it comes to culture in general and due to Monty Python's Flying Circus and some of its contemporaneous peers having been subject to a lot of hagiography over the years; for every funny sketch, there were others that fell rather flat. Some of what they did ages well, some is timeless and some is difficult to comprehend today without a precise knowledge of late 1960s cultural mores, current events and satirical targets. They were very much creatures of their time and, if that time was different, they would not emerge in the same way as in @. Now, I'm not contending that a couple of socio-political and economic changes would wipe the slate clean from the long British tradition of irreverence, satire and generally taking the mickey, but several key changes would have an effect.

I haven't decided to say Monty Python et al won't exist here on account of not liking them (I don't mind some of their stuff, although much less than when I was a teenager), or thinking that their absence would lead to some sort of permanent conservative utopia (I don't and the latter isn't a goal anyway), but because, upon consideration, I don't see the drivers for their emergence happening here.

What we have is:
- A more Reithian BBC due to ongoing wars and crises, social conservatism, a government prepared to censor more
- No Beyond the Fringe or Private Eye
- No competing commercial television in Britain
- A very different Suez in 1956 with flow-on effects, particularly with regard to national purpose, self-image, self-confidence and place in the world
- Some of the key figures pursuing other career paths that historically closed off for them

I'm not altogether sure that the absence of a comedy series influential amongst young people would result in less mental flexibility. The latter can come from a variety of different sources.

The Goodies had their moments of subversion, such as the political revolution episode, 'Give Police a Chance', 'South Africa', 'Gender Education' and a few others. I'd envisage that the type of 'Dark Earth Goodies' that would appear would be more along the lines of 'Kitten Kong' and 'The Goodies and the Beanstalk', or a bit more absurd and clearly aimed at a younger audience.

[stevep]

Dec 24, 2020 13:23:40 GMT simon darkshade said:

I wouldn't quite put it at the huge cultural loss level, as I'm a bit more ambivalent about the tyranny of the present when it comes to culture in general and due to Monty Python's Flying Circus and some of its contemporaneous peers having been subject to a lot of hagiography over the years; for every funny sketch, there were others that fell rather flat. Some of what they did ages well, some is timeless and some is difficult to comprehend today without a precise knowledge of late 1960s cultural mores, current events and satirical targets. They were very much creatures of their time and, if that time was different, they would not emerge in the same way as in @. Now, I'm not contending that a couple of socio-political and economic changes would wipe the slate clean from the long British tradition of irreverence, satire and generally taking the mickey, but several key changes would have an effect.

I haven't decided to say Monty Python et al won't exist here on account of not liking them (I don't mind some of their stuff, although much less than when I was a teenager), or thinking that their absence would lead to some sort of permanent conservative utopia (I don't and the latter isn't a goal anyway), but because, upon consideration, I don't see the drivers for their emergence happening here.

What we have is:
- A more Reithian BBC due to ongoing wars and crises, social conservatism, a government prepared to censor more
- No Beyond the Fringe or Private Eye
- No competing commercial television in Britain
- A very different Suez in 1956 with flow-on effects, particularly with regard to national purpose, self-image, self-confidence and place in the world
- Some of the key figures pursuing other career paths that historically closed off for them

I'm not altogether sure that the absence of a comedy series influential amongst young people would result in less mental flexibility. The latter can come from a variety of different sources.

The Goodies had their moments of subversion, such as the political revolution episode, 'Give Police a Chance', 'South Africa', 'Gender Education' and a few others. I'd envisage that the type of 'Dark Earth Goodies' that would appear would be more along the lines of 'Kitten Kong' and 'The Goodies and the Beanstalk', or a bit more absurd and clearly aimed at a younger audience.

  I would say its a significant one, albeit that I agree that some of the 60's comedy hasn't aged well.  What I meant is that without a more open willingness to question authority there's more chance of either corruption or sheer incompetence occurring.  Albeit you still have a lot of both in OTL even with a broader range of values and ideas.

[simon darkshade]

I think that it seems significant at our position from 2020, given the relative primacy of youth culture since the 1960s. Indeed, the youth culture of that decade hung around a lot longer than the youth culture of previous generations due to a variety of technological and social developments. From the perspective of Generation Z and whatever the subsequent one is called, they really don't even register. Give it another 20 years, and Python may be looked at the way the Goons or Tommy Handley are today.

However, for me, the measure of a significant cultural impact does take a bit more than two generations. If something can connect to an audience, move them and resonate with them long after many of the common connective threads of familiarity have gone, then it is some of true cultural impact. It will probably take longer to see if Monty Python really has an impact, or is more a function of the extended dominance of the 1960s generation in contemporary Western culture. The likes of Dickens, Shakespeare, Wagner, Beethoven, Van Gogh, Dante and Machiavelli shine out, whereas some of their contemporaries have gone to cultural dust.

In terms of the willingness to question authority, I believe that was a function of a lot of broader developments and trends above and beyond television and satirical theatre performances, although they certainly made a big impact right at the key time. Losing that trust isn't something that has occurred yet in Dark Earth as of 1966/67 and I can't see it occurring in exactly the same way as @. There are things that could cause it, but only on combination with events, trends, social attitudes and people.