Miscellaneous, Non-Frivolous ASB Ideas II

[stevep]

  Zyobot ,

  I must admit I'm too busy lazy to actually start a thread, especially with some things going on at the moment.  At least in terms of trying to run with doing a TL rather than just a story.

  Very detailed reply, many thanks.  I would say on a few points:

a)  I wasn't thinking of Britain jumping ship immediately from the EU but that it gives Britain a stronger bargaining position compared to OTL as it would be easier to make/revival new trade deals and that the field has been leveled somewhat in that the EU has a similar problem, coupled possibly with the fact its going to be a strange and potentially worrying thing for the down-timers.  2019 Britain will be very strange as well but its the descendant of a nation that many of them know and have trade and other links with so it won't be quite as odd and being smaller will seem less threatening.

b)  Having non-citizens brought along is fairly standard but I didn't want to assume just in case.  It will help in that it gives up-timers who will have links with down-time nations, although as you say many may have concerns about going 'home' even for 'modern' nations such as the US, Canada etc and definitely not for the USSR and Imperial Japan.

c)  I can see relations between the EU and USSR being very tense but I can't really see the former going to war.  It likes to throw it's weight about economically but I can't really see it seeking to start a war with the USSR.  Between the problems of decision making and also the knowledge that if they were to attack and defeat the Soviets that leaves them responsible for governing a massive region, which would be a huge task.  Was mentioning the orphan regions of 1939 isolated from their OTL nations as an buffer that might make war less likely but agree that bar one, all would be glad to look towards the EU rather than USSR.  Could see the largest, the former E Poland possibly ending up as some sort of protectorate while its decided what to do with it.  [Some Polish nationalists may want to reassert control but the vast bulk of the population aren't Polish and also Warsaw might not want the burden of trying to bring such a large area up to 2019 standards.]  One other issue here is that it also contains a large number of Jews from the old 'Pale' who OTL later died in the holocaust.  There is going to be pressure to find them a safe homeland but also to probably avoid the creation of Israel.

d)  The one I think will be a problem will be the E Prussian enclave.  Not so much the German military but the general population.  Given that the region was pretty conservative and in 1939 Hitler and the Nazis were very popular across much of Germany, I can see a lot of them being unhappy with both the ending of the Nazi regime and even more so the loss of so much German lands which leaves them isolated from a modern Germany they may find abhorrent in many ways.

e)  There are some other border issues that will occur.  Slovenia is part of the EU and 2019 Italy contains areas, such as Trieste that were in 1939 parts of Yugoslavia so that state will be unhappy.  However I think it won't be powerful enough to want to make it an issue, especially given the other national problems Yugoslavia has.  Also 1930 Switzerland is in for a shock and 1939 Albania is under indirect Italian control - if we're using a 1-1-1939 date for the down-timers as it became a direct occupation in April 1939.

f)  How the assorted uptime powers handle their colonial inheritance is going to be a big issue, possibly especially for Britain and France because of the size of their empires.  Much as the up-timers might want to drop them ASAP that's not going to be practical in many cases simply because their totally unready for independence but some areas such as India and much of the ME can move quickly towards independence.  [Whether the Hindu-Muslim split can be avoided or at least the massive bloodshed that marked it is an issue I don't know.]  Another very difficult issue is where there are white settler communities who won't want to accept majority rule and the ending of their privileges.  This will be especially bad for France with its large population in Algeria but Britain will also have issues with minority communities in East Africa.  Not sure how many settlers say Belgium had in the Congo or the Netherlands in the DEI but think they were largely local officials and businessmen rather than settlers intending to live out their lives there.  Will also be an issue of who owns properly here, especially land but also businesses.  Current owners can speak of the investment and work their put in and the local population can probably talk of land evictions and some degree of forced labour.

  Damn you for giving me a link to TV Tropes!   Fortunately I only lost about 20 minutes this time.  Looks a very interesting TL although some of the things mentioned there seem a bit off.  Many of them seem likely however and some quite good fun.  Like the idea of Christopher Lee as a war hero.

  Steve

[Zyobot]

‘Native Americans Become Immune To Old World Diseases’.

Which is to say, ASB magically grants indigenous populations in the Americas a near-total immunity to diseases brought along by European explores (making the New World way harder to conquer). Rather than, you know, said diseases hitting them with an overwhelming death-fest that makes the Black Death look almost half-assed.

[stevep]

Aug 30, 2021 23:54:55 GMT Zyobot said:

‘Native Americans Become Immune To Old World Diseases’.

Which is to say, ASB magically grants indigenous populations in the Americas a near-total immunity to diseases brought along by European explores (making the New World way harder to conquer). Rather than, you know, said diseases hitting them with an overwhelming death-fest that makes the Black Death look almost half-assed.

  Well it definitely makes them a hell of a lot more resistant against attacks from assorted European powers.  Cortes will have a much harder task and the Incas at least are likely to survive.  Ditto probably with the Maya and with a lot of other cultures across the Americas.  You could end up with it being say the 18th or 19thC before outsiders have the technological and organisational edge to make real inroads.  Which of course makes two big assumptions

a)  That the old world develops pretty much as OTL, which without the colonisation of much of the Americas it may well not.  Spain will lack the gold and silver, plantation culture in the Caribbean and parts of the mainland is a lot less likely to develop.

b)  That while catching up a bit the Americas cultures stay some time behind those of the old world.

  There are two other points that come to mind.  Africa could be somewhat better off as the main incentive for the Atlantic slave trade has gone, at least unless European powers still manage to get some of the Caribbean islands under their control and then need African labour to work them.  This could mean that say relations between Portugal and the Kongo kingdom stay good and possibly alliances between European powers and African states influenced by Christianity could see it gain an earlier foothold and push further north perhaps. 

  It says that the locals become immune to diseases from the old world.  Presumably this would include malaria and yellow fever which I think are the big endemic problems nowadays, having been brought over from the old world.  However the Europeans - and Africans - wouldn't so unless and until protection against them are developed the locals have a huge advantage in the tropic and sub-tropical regions those diseases flourish.  Which means its even more difficult for any outsider to establish a foothold across much of the Americas.  Thinking about it this would also give any American culture sufficiently advanced to cross the Atlantic itself a big advantage in much of the old world.  If there is colonisation of tropical Africa in TTL it could be most successful by American cultures!

  For that reason the most successful colonies in the Americas could possibly be in the extremes, i.e. Canada and the southern cone as their going to be less lethal for Europeans.

[Zyobot]

'Napoleonic Europe Reacts To The World Wars'.

In other words, ASB sends all manner of uptimer documents, recordings, and the miniaturized infrastructure needed to power them (i.e. hand-cranked chargers for portable TV sets) telling the people of early 1810s Europe of the even greater orgy of bloodletting and extremism that's to come later. Discarding the momentous technological boost for now, I doubt they'd take kindly to how they precipitated the decline and fall of the European empires or how Germany, Japan, and to an extent Stalinist Russia were all more menacing than Napoleon ever was (something that even Bonaparte's greatest detractors would be forced to admit). What they'd make of the recently independent New England colonies from across the Atlantic growing into a geopolitical colossus that won World War II through sheer industrial might and global power projection that the British wished they had probably deserves its own sub-discussion, never mind how it ended with the US as a global superpower that practically owned (or, perhaps, co-owned) the post-war world. And that's without mentioning the Manhattan Project and subsequent atomic bombings of Japan, as well as how it kickstarted the subsequent Nuclear Age; if that doesn't hammer home what an ascendant future America would've otherwise had in just over a century, then I don't know what will.

[Zyobot]

'2003 US (Sans New England) To 1773'.

President Bush, his cabinet, and the White House staff come along for the ride to represent the uptimers and their interests. Especially when delivering remarks before the Continental Congress, not to mention King George III himself.

[belushitd]

So all the US states except New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire go back?

How about Alaska and Hawaii? How about the territories? Puerto Rico, Guam, places like that?

How about bases in other countries? Lots of troops in Afghanistan, and possibly in Iraq, depending on when the ASB does its thing.

Also, the continental congress did not first meet until, what, 1774? They'd be butterflying away half the congress (Georgia did not send delegates to the first meeting).

Belushi TD

[stevep]

Sept 24, 2021 12:54:56 GMT belushitd said:

So all the US states except New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire go back?

How about Alaska and Hawaii? How about the territories? Puerto Rico, Guam, places like that?

How about bases in other countries? Lots of troops in Afghanistan, and possibly in Iraq, depending on when the ASB does its thing.

Also, the continental congress did not first meet until, what, 1774? They'd be butterflying away half the congress (Georgia did not send delegates to the first meeting).

Belushi TD

  Is New York considered part of New England?  Not sure but got the impression that it was the regions north of it that were included in the region but not New York itself.

[Zyobot]

Sept 24, 2021 12:54:56 GMT belushitd said:

So all the US states except New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire go back?

How about Alaska and Hawaii? How about the territories? Puerto Rico, Guam, places like that?

How about bases in other countries? Lots of troops in Afghanistan, and possibly in Iraq, depending on when the ASB does its thing.

Also, the continental congress did not first meet until, what, 1774? They'd be butterflying away half the congress (Georgia did not send delegates to the first meeting).

Belushi TD

How about I amend it to sending 2004 America back to 1774, then? Probably on September 5th to boot, since that's when the Continental Congress first met. Since they're US states, Alaska and Hawaii come back with the rest of their fellow US states. Same for New York, since apparently, it's not considered part of New England.

I know less about the dispersion of troops and military bases circa 2004, but to be on the safe side, I'd say all US Military assets and personnel materialize in uptimer America right as the ISOT happens.

Sept 25, 2021 11:04:49 GMT stevep said:

Is New York considered part of New England?  Not sure but got the impression that it was the regions north of it that were included in the region but not New York itself.

Looks like you're right, going by how the US government divides up regions.

[Zyobot]

‘2012 Germany To 1812’.

[Zyobot]

‘Founding Fathers Learn The US’s Future (July 4th, 1776)’.

Which is to say, ASB gifts them with the same hodgepodge of documents and miniature infrastructure as in my ‘Napoleonic Europe Reacts To The World Wars’ thread. Only this time, it’s them being shown America’s future leading up to ~2021, rather than the next great cataclysm to engulf Afro-Eurasia (as the Napoleonic downtimers got wind of).

[Zyobot]

'ASEAN To 1960'.

See this article for details on what it is, its mission, and its perceived shortcomings as of yet.

[Zyobot]

‘Adult Humans Learn Languages As Well As Young Children’.

As I understand it, young children seem to naturally pick up on foreign languages without needing as much formal instruction (though they may err on the finer points from time to time—just as we all did when first mastering each of our native languages).

[Zyobot]

'2020 Switzerland To 1960'. Which happens on January 1st of both years, just to be clear.

[Zyobot]

'Ancient Roman Leadership Reacts To YouTube (49 BC)'.

Which, not so coincidentally, is the year Caesar's Civil War leading up to the end of the Republic begins. As usual, YouTube is shown via lots of TVs with joystick-like controls and the miniaturized infrastructure needed to power and maintain them (i.e. hand-cranked power generators), with ASB providing a friendly note explaining what it is and the future it depicts. Their immediate future and the rise and fall of the coming empire aside, I wonder what they'd think of the next millennium and a half leading up to ~2021? Mind-boggled is the obvious answer, followed by mixed emotions over what the future brings and inevitable attempts to alter the course of history (e.g. discovering the Americas centuries ahead of schedule, preventing Germany from becoming the industrial heartland of Europe, and ensuring they amass a larger empire than those "Damnable Britons!" from the future among them).

[Zyobot]

'2050 US And China To 1950'.

Can't predict the specifics of what'll happen or how the two will stack up against one another by then, but my first instinct tells me the Chinese will overtake Soviet Russia as hegemon of the Red Bloc and be in a far better position to dictate terms to Stalin than Mao ever was.