575
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Post by 575 on Sept 24, 2022 7:01:30 GMT
Edited:
India India had suffered rather severely by the World crisis since 1930 though this year the still running crisis coupled with some unfortunate events during the previous year of rice disease, a cyclone hitting Bengal and severe tidal waves a famine occurred there. The effects were quite bad with famine in large parts of the area and spurred on Gandhi and other Indian politicians to demand the Viceroy effect countermeasures to save lives or let India handle its problems by itself as the British surely didn't want to do anything. The main objection by Ghandi et al. being the laissez-faire policy of London not stopping increased pricing in the area on basic nutricion – rice. Of course the situation though limited in size in relation to Indian circumstances didn't improve the Imperial British position. Ghandi's example of non-violent opposition continued to attract followers over much of India.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 24, 2022 13:23:46 GMT
India India had suffered rather severely by the World crisis since 1930 though this year the still running crisis coupled with some unfortunate events during the previous year of rice disease, a cyclone hitting Bengal and severe tidal waves a famine occurred there. The effects were quite bad with famine in large parts of the area and spurred on Gandhi and other Indian politicians to demand the Viceroy effect countermeasures to save lives or let India handle its problems by itself as the British surely didn't want to do anything. At Parliament in London Labour and Government discussed the situation though the proposal of letting India be able to handle such occurences by handing over more rule met with Government opposition as the area affected also imported rice from Burma hence it was a matter on Government control of inter-colonial trade which led to critism from Commonwealth members South Africa and less loudly Australia of high handed treatment by London. Not because the residents of either Commonwealth member state had much empathy for the Indian population of Bengal but in order to undermine British control and get more local rule themselves. Of course the situation though limited in size in relation to Indian circumstances didn't improve the Imperial British position. Ghandi's example of non-violent opposition continued to attract followers over much of India.
Given the British attitude at the time, still stick very much in a laissez faire mode did they actually interfere in intra-colonial trade at all? Especially since this occurred anyway with Burma exporting rice to India and all that would be needed would be a larger level of shipment. They might not interfere to prevent local supplies selling excess rice elsewhere if the supplies got a bigger reward but I can't see either the Governor or even less London interfering to stop rice going to India. I don't know what the situation was in 1930 but in 42/43 the big problem with imports was that Japan had occupied Burma. A secondary factor was fear of a Japanese invasion of India and of them using local boats for shipping forces about meant that the colonial administration sought to strongly control such boats which hindered movements of food inside Bengal but again that wouldn't be a case here. Basically was there such a situation at the time where London impeded food movements from Burma or was it a case of a food shortfall and your assuming that for some reasons problems occurred as in 42/32?
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575
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Post by 575 on Sept 25, 2022 10:41:24 GMT
India India had suffered rather severely by the World crisis since 1930 though this year the still running crisis coupled with some unfortunate events during the previous year of rice disease, a cyclone hitting Bengal and severe tidal waves a famine occurred there. The effects were quite bad with famine in large parts of the area and spurred on Gandhi and other Indian politicians to demand the Viceroy effect countermeasures to save lives or let India handle its problems by itself as the British surely didn't want to do anything. At Parliament in London Labour and Government discussed the situation though the proposal of letting India be able to handle such occurences by handing over more rule met with Government opposition as the area affected also imported rice from Burma hence it was a matter on Government control of inter-colonial trade which led to critism from Commonwealth members South Africa and less loudly Australia of high handed treatment by London. Not because the residents of either Commonwealth member state had much empathy for the Indian population of Bengal but in order to undermine British control and get more local rule themselves. Of course the situation though limited in size in relation to Indian circumstances didn't improve the Imperial British position. Ghandi's example of non-violent opposition continued to attract followers over much of India.
Given the British attitude at the time, still stick very much in a laissez faire mode did they actually interfere in intra-colonial trade at all? Especially since this occurred anyway with Burma exporting rice to India and all that would be needed would be a larger level of shipment. They might not interfere to prevent local supplies selling excess rice elsewhere if the supplies got a bigger reward but I can't see either the Governor or even less London interfering to stop rice going to India. I don't know what the situation was in 1930 but in 42/43 the big problem with imports was that Japan had occupied Burma. A secondary factor was fear of a Japanese invasion of India and of them using local boats for shipping forces about meant that the colonial administration sought to strongly control such boats which hindered movements of food inside Bengal but again that wouldn't be a case here. Basically was there such a situation at the time where London impeded food movements from Burma or was it a case of a food shortfall and your assuming that for some reasons problems occurred as in 42/32?
Thank you for just this; I very much debated with myself the possible outcome of the famine ITTL. Only eased it due to the ongoing supply from Burma not being obstructed. With no London obstruction of inter-colonial trade I'll edit this.
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575
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Post by 575 on Sept 25, 2022 10:48:27 GMT
1944 Partly because of the increased trade and shutteling of workforces within the Nordic countries a customs union is negotiated to remove customs tariffs on Nordic inter-state trade. A passport union is also negotiated making for any citizen of a Nordic state to travel freely to any other Nordic state and take up residence in any Nordic state within the framework of legislation in the state of residence. Realizing the short transfer time of airunits within the Nordic states the Governments negotiate a new cooperation treaty of Airforces which make for short deployment warnings and allow transfer of units across the national borders within a short time. In order to facilitate the early deployment of such airforce units Finland begin upscaling its military airfield ground facilities to be able to service additional units beyond Finlands own. A move that is much critizised by the Sovietunion though the critizism is rejected by a joint Nordic diplomatic note which is very much a surprise to the Soviets.
Germany and Britain realize they have entered cooperation in the Nordic Nuclear Bomb Project on much smaller scale than the Nordics deserve due to the response to the Sovietunion; the Nordics seem much more solid bent on their defence than expected. Germany begin industrial Uranium mining in the provinces of Thüringen and Saxony; there have been mining since the 19. Century and it have been the materiel source of German earlier uranium scientists like Lise Meitner now working with the Nordic Nuclear Bomb project. Germany start exporting uranium ore to the Nordics. The Nordics are quite happy of the German and British increase in support of the Nuclear Bomb Project and ask both parties of a design of a heavy Bomber Aircraft capable of carrying 5metric tons as the projected bomb would be quite large. The Germans surprised the British with their initiation of a Strategic Bombers Aircraft Project which would be deemed fit for carrying such a weapon and which reveal set off a British Project of a more modern Strategic Bomber Aircraft than the present Shorts Bomber.
The first trans-Atlantic airroute is opened operated by Trans World Airways from New York to London and Paris via Bermuda or Kangerlussuak, Greenland flying Lockheed L-049 Constellation. This route is an unprecedented experience in luxury and easy travel with a stopover in the Arctic or Tropics! Later on a shorter route over Gander, New Foundland is added which is also some 600 Nm shorter making for less fuel consumption. This event makes for the major European to build longrange passenger aircraft. Of course some were already in service but amounted to few. Some of the new passenger aircraft are reviewed by the various Airforces with a view to changing the design to a Strategic Bomber. Another route across the Pacific is also opened from Los Angeles via Honolulu, Hawaii and Guam to Shanghai, China.
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575
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There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Sept 26, 2022 16:12:24 GMT
Communism The Sovietunion resume the support of Communist polical agitation in Europe. To the French Popular Front Government the Sovietunion is the leader though the position is becoming more difficult to uphold. The cessation of Communist terrorism generally within France serve to help though mainly the Armed Forces are very critical of Government. Without a common enemy the Popular Front is losing support in the population except in the major cities and marginal rural countryside. The French Colonies are beginning to demand more political influence and mainly in North Africa in Algeria are opposition reverting to armed insurrection termed terrorism but also in places as far as French Indochina where a certain former student Ho Chi Minh is building his political platform. The major problem facing the Popular Front Government is the desire to uphold political hold on Metropolitan France to be able to better the conditions of its voters though at the same time realizing that the undeveloped Colonies cannot be given more political rights as it would entail loss of resources needed to run development in France. This duality of France and indeed its Government is resulting in much propaganda out of the Sovietunion targetting France and it stance on its colonies while in the Colonies supporting the dissident franctions and inciting rebellion. The critism is making for much infighting within the Popular Front Government of France and this combined with unrest in the colonies is expected make for a change of Government. The Soviet agitation also hits other European nations as well as the USA and China but also areas like Latin America is on the list.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 26, 2022 19:08:10 GMT
Given the British attitude at the time, still stick very much in a laissez faire mode did they actually interfere in intra-colonial trade at all? Especially since this occurred anyway with Burma exporting rice to India and all that would be needed would be a larger level of shipment. They might not interfere to prevent local supplies selling excess rice elsewhere if the supplies got a bigger reward but I can't see either the Governor or even less London interfering to stop rice going to India. I don't know what the situation was in 1930 but in 42/43 the big problem with imports was that Japan had occupied Burma. A secondary factor was fear of a Japanese invasion of India and of them using local boats for shipping forces about meant that the colonial administration sought to strongly control such boats which hindered movements of food inside Bengal but again that wouldn't be a case here. Basically was there such a situation at the time where London impeded food movements from Burma or was it a case of a food shortfall and your assuming that for some reasons problems occurred as in 42/32?
Thank you for just this; I very much debated with myself the possible outcome of the famine ITTL. Only eased it due to the ongoing supply from Burma not being obstructed. With no London obstruction of inter-colonial trade I'll edit this.
OK, many thanks.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 26, 2022 19:21:49 GMT
1944 Partly because of the increased trade and shutteling of workforces within the Nordic countries a customs union is negotiated to remove customs tariffs on Nordic inter-state trade. A passport union is also negotiated making for any citizen of a Nordic state to travel freely to any other Nordic state and take up residence in any Nordic state within the framework of legislation in the state of residence. Realizing the short transfer time of airunits within the Nordic states the Governments negotiate a new cooperation treaty of Airforces which make for short deployment warnings and allow transfer of units across the national borders within a short time. In order to facilitate the early deployment of such airforce units Finland begin upscaling its military airfield ground facilities to be able to service additional units beyond Finlands own. A move that is much critizised by the Sovietunion though the critizism is rejected by a joint Nordic diplomatic note which is very much a surprise to the Soviets. Germany and Britain realize they have entered cooperation in the Nordic Nuclear Bomb Project on much smaller scale than the Nordics deserve due to the response to the Sovietunion; the Nordics seem much more solid bent on their defence than expected. Germany begin industrial Uranium mining in the provinces of Thüringen and Saxony; there have been mining since the 19. Century and it have been the materiel source of German earlier uranium scientists like Lise Meitner now working with the Nordic Nuclear Bomb project. Germany start exporting uranium ore to the Nordics. The Nordics are quite happy of the German and British increase in support of the Nuclear Bomb Project and ask both parties of a design of a heavy Bomber Aircraft capable of carrying 5metric tons as the projected bomb would be quite large. The Germans surprised the British with their initiation of a Strategic Bombers Aircraft Project which would be deemed fit for carrying such a weapon and which reveal set off a British Project of a more modern Strategic Bomber Aircraft than the present Shorts Bomber. The first trans-Atlantic airroute is opened operated by Trans World Airways from New York to London and Paris via Bermuda or Kangerlussuak, Greenland flying Lockheed L-049 Constellation. This route is an unprecedented experience in luxury and easy travel with a stopover in the Arctic or Tropics! Later on a shorter route over Gander, New Foundland is added which is also some 600 Nm shorter making for less fuel consumption. This event makes for the major European to build longrange passenger aircraft. Of course some were already in service but amounted to few. Some of the new passenger aircraft are reviewed by the various Airforces with a view to changing the design to a Strategic Bomber. Another route across the Pacific is also opened from Los Angeles via Honolulu, Hawaii and Guam to Shanghai, China.
Well that's interesting the nuclear programme advancing long ranged aviation, civil as well as military. Also useful seeing the date as forgetting the date of current events.
Scandinavian 'unity' is developing nicely, which is ironic as the TL started with a war between them.
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575
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There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Sept 27, 2022 15:59:48 GMT
1944 Partly because of the increased trade and shutteling of workforces within the Nordic countries a customs union is negotiated to remove customs tariffs on Nordic inter-state trade. A passport union is also negotiated making for any citizen of a Nordic state to travel freely to any other Nordic state and take up residence in any Nordic state within the framework of legislation in the state of residence. Realizing the short transfer time of airunits within the Nordic states the Governments negotiate a new cooperation treaty of Airforces which make for short deployment warnings and allow transfer of units across the national borders within a short time. In order to facilitate the early deployment of such airforce units Finland begin upscaling its military airfield ground facilities to be able to service additional units beyond Finlands own. A move that is much critizised by the Sovietunion though the critizism is rejected by a joint Nordic diplomatic note which is very much a surprise to the Soviets. Germany and Britain realize they have entered cooperation in the Nordic Nuclear Bomb Project on much smaller scale than the Nordics deserve due to the response to the Sovietunion; the Nordics seem much more solid bent on their defence than expected. Germany begin industrial Uranium mining in the provinces of Thüringen and Saxony; there have been mining since the 19. Century and it have been the materiel source of German earlier uranium scientists like Lise Meitner now working with the Nordic Nuclear Bomb project. Germany start exporting uranium ore to the Nordics. The Nordics are quite happy of the German and British increase in support of the Nuclear Bomb Project and ask both parties of a design of a heavy Bomber Aircraft capable of carrying 5metric tons as the projected bomb would be quite large. The Germans surprised the British with their initiation of a Strategic Bombers Aircraft Project which would be deemed fit for carrying such a weapon and which reveal set off a British Project of a more modern Strategic Bomber Aircraft than the present Shorts Bomber. The first trans-Atlantic airroute is opened operated by Trans World Airways from New York to London and Paris via Bermuda or Kangerlussuak, Greenland flying Lockheed L-049 Constellation. This route is an unprecedented experience in luxury and easy travel with a stopover in the Arctic or Tropics! Later on a shorter route over Gander, New Foundland is added which is also some 600 Nm shorter making for less fuel consumption. This event makes for the major European to build longrange passenger aircraft. Of course some were already in service but amounted to few. Some of the new passenger aircraft are reviewed by the various Airforces with a view to changing the design to a Strategic Bomber. Another route across the Pacific is also opened from Los Angeles via Honolulu, Hawaii and Guam to Shanghai, China.
Well that's interesting the nuclear programme advancing long ranged aviation, civil as well as military. Also useful seeing the date as forgetting the date of current events.
Scandinavian 'unity' is developing nicely, which is ironic as the TL started with a war between them. I thought about the German Rocket Institute but without Nazism to lift von Braun into orbit I didn't see that as a means of deployment. I'll put the year on in coming post's.
I had a lot of thought on Scandinavian Unity looking ironic because of the opening war but in some ways that unity is still lacking in areas like the OTL common Krone-currency as Sweden withdrew and didn't re-join it.
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575
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There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Sept 28, 2022 7:07:00 GMT
1944: Eritrea The war was slowly grinding down the Italian forces in East Africa and the Italian Government approached the British in order to be able to use the Suez-Canal for transporting reinforcements there. The British rejected the approach but then the Italians drew the European Civilization Card; if the Abyssinians would win the Italians and other Europeans in place (there were very few) would be massacered. This served its purpose as the Italians were advised to take the issue to the League of Nations where it fared ill as both the Chinese and Brazil as well as Ethiopia countered the issue as European racism which had the Europeans counter by pleading to protect its civilians in place risking lives or worse. Then Italians turned on the Scandinavians accusing them of arming the savages in a misunderstood uplifting mission in which the Scandinavians were supported by the Dutch; at which point the discussion were relegated to a commission to look into the matter to propose a cease fire and solution to the problem. Then the Italians were notified that the British and French were willing to guarantee safe evacuation from Eritrea and Somalia should that be the outcome of the conflict by putting the squeze on Emperor Haile Selassie having his troops stay off the Italian civilians or face the consequences. To this end a British – French mission flew to Addis Abeba to meet with Haile Selassie to tell him to avoid any “excesses” by his troops in Eritrea or Somalia. The British – French also met Major General Eric Virgin Air Advisor to the Emperor who could only tell them that the Ethiopian levies could be difficult to control. The Scandinavian Military Mission were teaching its students as part of correct Officer's behavior and conduct not to allow any such. The problem being the levies under triballeader control; whom the Scandinavian Military Mission had difficulty trying to reach and if then to change their mind on the use of Military forces at the moment leading to horrible losses in Eritrea. The few Army Regular formations commanded by Scandinavian trained officers did rather good and were the ones to have reached the Red Sea Coast. The British – French mission ended up relaying to their Governments that the eventual evacuation of civilians and Italian troops from Eritrea and Somalia would require substantial troops to bar the Ethiopians from massacrering those and shipping to carry off the evacuees. If the Italians were still to be barred Navy assets to use the Suez Canal at least merchantmen should be allowed to use it for evacuation purposes; also the borders of French and British Somalia should be opened to Italian refugees civilian and military to avoid disaster. The Scandinavian Military Mission were reported to try to instill a civilized code of conduct with the savages but were up against the ignorance of tribal leaders commanding a major part of the Army. The French Popular Front Government were more or less “the Italians asked for it” attitude but agreed to a joint action along the British though to be led by the British so that it would be able wash its hands; the British Government decided to tell the Italians that if evacuation would be the only option transports would be allowed use of the Suez Canal under RN Convoy. In preparation of the enevitable a couple of Royal Marines Battalions were shipped to Suez to acclimatize and get some desert combat training. The French shipped off some reinforcements to Djibouti to be able to support the British. The French Navy being only too eager to try out its new Aircraft Carrier Joffre in actual operations and informing the RN that Joffre two Battleships and four cruisers would deploy to the Red Sea for a prolonged period by spring. A North African Infantry Regiment would be transported too for an exercise in moving troops and landed at Djibouti to be held in reserve in area. In the combat area the drawn out war was further drawn out; the Italian raised locals for its Colonial troops might not have been of much offensive value but with their backs against the wall facing Ethiopians not accepting deserters they became quite stubborn defenders in the hilly area. In Ogaden Desert in the south the too long logistics trail had forced the Italians to withdraw to their own turf and set ud defences with much the like outcome as in Eritrea now with the Ethiopians being at the end or rather having outrun their logistics and not being able to extend it. Whatever happing down there would be isolated raids by determined Ethiopians of limited military value. The Italians were actually despite only being able to move token reinforcements into theater able to hold their own and relying on locally produced ammunition to hold off the enevitable. The few aircraft had been concentrated to make as much of them as possible and keeping the AA-guns remaining on the operational airfields to keep these operational; though the Army sorely wanted to use them in the ground battle the Airforce was able to point to that in order to remain updated on enemy whereabouts mainly its airactivivy and other powers Naval activity in the Red Sea – the Indian Ocean being of less concern due to the Ethiopian Airforce being concentrated in Eritrea mainly supporting the Army though the occasional Reconnaisance flight over Somalia did occur it was the minor theatre. Much more an effect than talk the British and French implementing an air blockade of Ethiopia and transport of goods from Djibouti or Sudan into it served to get the parties back to the negotiating table at London during summer. When this was announced the Scandinavians quietly informed the British that they would cease supply fights into Ethiopia as would the Dutch. Also no Scandinavian pilots would be operating in the air against British – French units. Seeing that it didn't get any European support Italy finally decide to write off Eritrea however Ethiopia isn't really interested in Somalia leaving that to Italy. During late September the Italian Armed Forces and civilian administration as well as any civilian willing to leave is concentrated at Massawa while those south of the Ethiopian positions on the Red Sea is moved to the border of French Somalia, Djibouti. With Royal Marines and North African Infantry moving into Eritrea to guard the evacuation the Italians are shipped off to the transports. In a few instances the Ethiopian levies want to plunder the Italians and are repulsed by the French and British troops with heavy losses to the Ethiopians but generally the evacuation continue without much interference. A single Ethiopian fighter aircraft is shot down over Massawa by a RN Fairey Firefly (ok I'm really not sure on a single seat FAA fighter without WWII).
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 28, 2022 21:35:46 GMT
1944: Eritrea The war was slowly grinding down the Italian forces in East Africa and the Italian Government approached the British in order to be able to use the Suez-Canal for transporting reinforcements there. The British rejected the approach but then the Italians drew the European Civilization Card; if the Abyssinians would win the Italians and other Europeans in place (there were very few) would be massacered. This served its purpose as the Italians were advised to take the issue to the League of Nations where it fared ill as both the Chinese and Brazil as well as Ethiopia countered the issue as European racism which had the Europeans counter by pleading to protect its civilians in place risking lives or worse. Then Italians turned on the Scandinavians accusing them of arming the savages in a misunderstood uplifting mission in which the Scandinavians were supported by the Dutch; at which point the discussion were relegated to a commission to look into the matter to propose a cease fire and solution to the problem. Then the Italians were notified that the British and French were willing to guarantee safe evacuation from Eritrea and Somalia should that be the outcome of the conflict by putting the squeze on Emperor Haile Selassie having his troops stay off the Italian civilians or face the consequences. To this end a British – French mission flew to Addis Abeba to meet with Haile Selassie to tell him to avoid any “excesses” by his troops in Eritrea or Somalia. The British – French also met Major General Eric Virgin Air Advisor to the Emperor who could only tell them that the Ethiopian levies could be difficult to control. The Scandinavian Military Mission were teaching its students as part of correct Officer's behavior and conduct not to allow any such. The problem being the levies under triballeader control; whom the Scandinavian Military Mission had difficulty trying to reach and if then to change their mind on the use of Military forces at the moment leading to horrible losses in Eritrea. The few Army Regular formations commanded by Scandinavian trained officers did rather good and were the ones to have reached the Red Sea Coast. The British – French mission ended up relaying to their Governments that the eventual evacuation of civilians and Italian troops from Eritrea and Somalia would require substantial troops to bar the Ethiopians from massacrering those and shipping to carry off the evacuees. If the Italians were still to be barred Navy assets to use the Suez Canal at least merchantmen should be allowed to use it for evacuation purposes; also the borders of French and British Somalia should be opened to Italian refugees civilian and military to avoid disaster. The Scandinavian Military Mission were reported to try to instill a civilized code of conduct with the savages but were up against the ignorance of tribal leaders commanding a major part of the Army. The French Popular Front Government were more or less “the Italians asked for it” attitude but agreed to a joint action along the British though to be led by the British so that it would be able wash its hands; the British Government decided to tell the Italians that if evacuation would be the only option transports would be allowed use of the Suez Canal under RN Convoy. In preparation of the enevitable a couple of Royal Marines Battalions were shipped to Suez to acclimatize and get some desert combat training. The French shipped off some reinforcements to Djibouti to be able to support the British. The French Navy being only too eager to try out its new Aircraft Carrier Joffre in actual operations and informing the RN that Joffre two Battleships and four cruisers would deploy to the Red Sea for a prolonged period by spring. A North African Infantry Regiment would be transported too for an exercise in moving troops and landed at Djibouti to be held in reserve in area. In the combat area the drawn out war was further drawn out; the Italian raised locals for its Colonial troops might not have been of much offensive value but with their backs against the wall facing Ethiopians not accepting deserters they became quite stubborn defenders in the hilly area. In Ogaden Desert in the south the too long logistics trail had forced the Italians to withdraw to their own turf and set ud defences with much the like outcome as in Eritrea now with the Ethiopians being at the end or rather having outrun their logistics and not being able to extend it. Whatever happing down there would be isolated raids by determined Ethiopians of limited military value. The Italians were actually despite only being able to move token reinforcements into theater able to hold their own and relying on locally produced ammunition to hold off the enevitable. The few aircraft had been concentrated to make as much of them as possible and keeping the AA-guns remaining on the operational airfields to keep these operational; though the Army sorely wanted to use them in the ground battle the Airforce was able to point to that in order to remain updated on enemy whereabouts mainly its airactivivy and other powers Naval activity in the Red Sea – the Indian Ocean being of less concern due to the Ethiopian Airforce being concentrated in Eritrea mainly supporting the Army though the occasional Reconnaisance flight over Somalia did occur it was the minor theatre. Much more an effect than talk the British and French implementing an air blockade of Ethiopia and transport of goods from Djibouti or Sudan into it served to get the parties back to the negotiating table at London during summer. When this was announced the Scandinavians quietly informed the British that they would cease supply fights into Ethiopia as would the Dutch. Also no Scandinavian pilots would be operating in the air against British – French units. Seeing that it didn't get any European support Italy finally decide to write off Eritrea however Ethiopia isn't really interested in Somalia leaving that to Italy. During late September the Italian Armed Forces and civilian administration as well as any civilian willing to leave is concentrated at Massawa while those south of the Ethiopian positions on the Red Sea is moved to the border of French Somalia, Djibouti. With Royal Marines and North African Infantry moving into Eritrea to guard the evacuation the Italians are shipped off to the transports. In a few instances the Ethiopian levies want to plunder the Italians and are repulsed by the French and British troops with heavy losses to the Ethiopians but generally the evacuation continue without much interference. A single Ethiopian fighter aircraft is shot down over Massawa by a RN Fairey Firefly (ok I'm really not sure on a single seat FAA fighter without WWII).
Well that was a reasonably successful end to a messy war that could have gone a lot worse. Of course how long imperial rule remains welcome in predominately Muslim Eritrea could be an interesting point as well as possibly border disputes between Ethiopia and Italian Somalia given how well delineated the border line in the Ogaden desert region isn't.
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575
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Post by 575 on Sept 29, 2022 6:55:40 GMT
1944: Eritrea The war was slowly grinding down the Italian forces in East Africa and the Italian Government approached the British in order to be able to use the Suez-Canal for transporting reinforcements there. The British rejected the approach but then the Italians drew the European Civilization Card; if the Abyssinians would win the Italians and other Europeans in place (there were very few) would be massacered. This served its purpose as the Italians were advised to take the issue to the League of Nations where it fared ill as both the Chinese and Brazil as well as Ethiopia countered the issue as European racism which had the Europeans counter by pleading to protect its civilians in place risking lives or worse. Then Italians turned on the Scandinavians accusing them of arming the savages in a misunderstood uplifting mission in which the Scandinavians were supported by the Dutch; at which point the discussion were relegated to a commission to look into the matter to propose a cease fire and solution to the problem. Then the Italians were notified that the British and French were willing to guarantee safe evacuation from Eritrea and Somalia should that be the outcome of the conflict by putting the squeze on Emperor Haile Selassie having his troops stay off the Italian civilians or face the consequences. To this end a British – French mission flew to Addis Abeba to meet with Haile Selassie to tell him to avoid any “excesses” by his troops in Eritrea or Somalia. The British – French also met Major General Eric Virgin Air Advisor to the Emperor who could only tell them that the Ethiopian levies could be difficult to control. The Scandinavian Military Mission were teaching its students as part of correct Officer's behavior and conduct not to allow any such. The problem being the levies under triballeader control; whom the Scandinavian Military Mission had difficulty trying to reach and if then to change their mind on the use of Military forces at the moment leading to horrible losses in Eritrea. The few Army Regular formations commanded by Scandinavian trained officers did rather good and were the ones to have reached the Red Sea Coast. The British – French mission ended up relaying to their Governments that the eventual evacuation of civilians and Italian troops from Eritrea and Somalia would require substantial troops to bar the Ethiopians from massacrering those and shipping to carry off the evacuees. If the Italians were still to be barred Navy assets to use the Suez Canal at least merchantmen should be allowed to use it for evacuation purposes; also the borders of French and British Somalia should be opened to Italian refugees civilian and military to avoid disaster. The Scandinavian Military Mission were reported to try to instill a civilized code of conduct with the savages but were up against the ignorance of tribal leaders commanding a major part of the Army. The French Popular Front Government were more or less “the Italians asked for it” attitude but agreed to a joint action along the British though to be led by the British so that it would be able wash its hands; the British Government decided to tell the Italians that if evacuation would be the only option transports would be allowed use of the Suez Canal under RN Convoy. In preparation of the enevitable a couple of Royal Marines Battalions were shipped to Suez to acclimatize and get some desert combat training. The French shipped off some reinforcements to Djibouti to be able to support the British. The French Navy being only too eager to try out its new Aircraft Carrier Joffre in actual operations and informing the RN that Joffre two Battleships and four cruisers would deploy to the Red Sea for a prolonged period by spring. A North African Infantry Regiment would be transported too for an exercise in moving troops and landed at Djibouti to be held in reserve in area. In the combat area the drawn out war was further drawn out; the Italian raised locals for its Colonial troops might not have been of much offensive value but with their backs against the wall facing Ethiopians not accepting deserters they became quite stubborn defenders in the hilly area. In Ogaden Desert in the south the too long logistics trail had forced the Italians to withdraw to their own turf and set ud defences with much the like outcome as in Eritrea now with the Ethiopians being at the end or rather having outrun their logistics and not being able to extend it. Whatever happing down there would be isolated raids by determined Ethiopians of limited military value. The Italians were actually despite only being able to move token reinforcements into theater able to hold their own and relying on locally produced ammunition to hold off the enevitable. The few aircraft had been concentrated to make as much of them as possible and keeping the AA-guns remaining on the operational airfields to keep these operational; though the Army sorely wanted to use them in the ground battle the Airforce was able to point to that in order to remain updated on enemy whereabouts mainly its airactivivy and other powers Naval activity in the Red Sea – the Indian Ocean being of less concern due to the Ethiopian Airforce being concentrated in Eritrea mainly supporting the Army though the occasional Reconnaisance flight over Somalia did occur it was the minor theatre. Much more an effect than talk the British and French implementing an air blockade of Ethiopia and transport of goods from Djibouti or Sudan into it served to get the parties back to the negotiating table at London during summer. When this was announced the Scandinavians quietly informed the British that they would cease supply fights into Ethiopia as would the Dutch. Also no Scandinavian pilots would be operating in the air against British – French units. Seeing that it didn't get any European support Italy finally decide to write off Eritrea however Ethiopia isn't really interested in Somalia leaving that to Italy. During late September the Italian Armed Forces and civilian administration as well as any civilian willing to leave is concentrated at Massawa while those south of the Ethiopian positions on the Red Sea is moved to the border of French Somalia, Djibouti. With Royal Marines and North African Infantry moving into Eritrea to guard the evacuation the Italians are shipped off to the transports. In a few instances the Ethiopian levies want to plunder the Italians and are repulsed by the French and British troops with heavy losses to the Ethiopians but generally the evacuation continue without much interference. A single Ethiopian fighter aircraft is shot down over Massawa by a RN Fairey Firefly (ok I'm really not sure on a single seat FAA fighter without WWII).
Well that was a reasonably successful end to a messy war that could have gone a lot worse. Of course how long imperial rule remains welcome in predominately Muslim Eritrea could be an interesting point as well as possibly border disputes between Ethiopia and Italian Somalia given how well delineated the border line in the Ogaden desert region isn't. Its going into that period mindset - at least a try. Well Italian politics is going to crop up again next year - 1945. As OTL the Eritreans won't like being dominated though that will be a thing of the future - Somalia will be up again soon.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Sept 29, 2022 14:48:23 GMT
1944: Italy Italian economy did really well and served to generally uplift Italy. Late in the year the loss of Eritrea did little to society except whats happened; peoples in Italy cared little for East Africa – Libya being another matter. With oil industry booming more immigration to Libya was desired and a scheme of using some of the Oil Wealth to irrigate Cyrenaika was fostered. A green spot on the face of North Africa ought to do the job. It actually did which a regular ferry service from Benghazi to Reggio Calabria and later Athens, Greece served to also attracht Greeks – whereever there's seaborne trade there's Greeks – opened this year; Benghazi of course due to oil industry also sported an Airport but airtravel still being out of reach to the commoner. Italy having lost Eritrea to joint British/French aggression with the Ethiopians the proxy fuelled the political right demanding a more aggressive say in European matters mainly in the Balkans and not to depart with Somalia! To do so the right parties demanded more funds for the Armed Services though this was easily brushed off with reference to the rebuilding of Battleships and other Navy units as well as modernizing of Army and Airforce. The political demands on the Balkans were weathered by a referendum on the issue in which Government parties came out strengthened; the constituency considering their personal matters more important and wanting to live the good life now possible. Somalia was another kettle of fish though Government were ready to let go of it nobody was interested in taking over but nobody wanted an independent former colony at the moment leaving the annoying issue to the Italians. Somalia was kept up on subsidiary levels the recent war having shown that the Ethiopians didn't have the ability even if having the mind to do much about it. The loss of Eritrea was felt by Government but the referendum had shown Government to have the trust of the constituency. The right parties were somewhat muted by Somalia being kept aboard. Italy went back to relaxing in the Mediterranean Sun. In the Mediterranean Sun Italy had slowly reached the French level of coffee imports as coffee was cornering cheap Italian wine hithero being the passtime of poor Italians; now this segment of Italian society was reaping the benefits of oil. Those who had migrated to Cyrenaika began having visitors of family who had remained home who all liked the Italianness of the area with cafees and restaurants serving well known dishes and a countryside not unlike that at home in southern Italy. Slowly the number of migrants to Cyrenaika began climbing. The booming oilindustry in Great Syrte area bordering Cyrenaika demanded ever more agricultural produce filling the pockets of the farmers and drawing in more migrants. For once an Italian scheme seemed to work out. With the tolerance of the average Italian of other etnicities the Libyans also wound up in the upgoing spiral – those who wanted to, and a lot did – and more workers were attracted from the desert hinterlands. Because of the wast distances of Libya a new railway was begun building going from Tobruk in the east to Ajdabiya on the eastern end of the Great Syrte and inland from there to the oilfields. Also the Railways in the area of Tripolis in the west close to Tunesia was being developed to eventually link up with the oilfields. Most of the work being done by workers a lot of them Italians lured in by good pay but also why machine it when You had plenty hands just having to move them into the right spot; even if there was more money flowing into southern Italy Sicily had been wanting and now recruiting was done there and in Sardinia. A by-product not realized at the time was less organized crime in Southern Italy and Sicily; why go to a middleman when in want who would cash in a favour at an annoying time of Yours when You'd be able to pay the necessary and annoying small fee's needed to make authority give a thumps up to Your needs? Of course change take time and the described change here as earlier since the oil hit in Great Syrte area took most of a decade to be really felt but from the beginning even if small changes did happen which in the case of Italy's was felt earlier than such would have in France, Germany or Scandinavia due to the generally higher income per capita than in Italy.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Nov 5, 2022 7:54:01 GMT
Ok - this one just kept growing all by itself. Disclaimer: I'm not a tank nerd though was during my time with various Services affiliated with the ways of Anti-Tank work on the Squad/Platoon level and trained as gunner on the Carl Gustav. As an NCO I of course were trained to use the various teams of the Squad - MG - AT - Riflemen. SO: any ignorance or knowledge of Tanks stems from being primarily trained in fighting them!
***
Tank development 1944 The Italian-Yugoslavian War of 1935 and the Sovietunion-Japan and Sovietunion/China-Japan wars 1935-43 had shown the need of manouevre and dual purpose guns and the Sovietunion T-34 had been a real chok to all; which in the West led to tanks such as the German Panzer I with a 75mm main gun capable of firing AP and HE rounds, the French Somua S36 which however suffered from a small turret ring limiting it to use a 50mm main gun though capable of firing both AP and HE rounds, the Czechoslovaks also designed a new medium tank based on the Praga suspension of the TNH light tank which had performed very well in Hungary but scaled up to carry a 75mm main gun like the Panzer I though of Czechoslovak make with dual capability and significantly enlarged overall. Vickers of Britain also followed the trend and proposed a Tank with a 75mm main gun a bored out 57mm gun also used for Tanks but found lacking a HE capability. The Czechoslovaks had realized the importance of a large turret ring both to upgrade the armament of the new tank but also to make it able to be developed further should need be. The British soon jumped onto this development for future designs. These states also were some of the most financially strong which made it possible to rebuild bridges for the new heavier Tanks when utilizing road movement other less economically strong nations had to go step by step indentifying in the case of the Nordics where improvements would matter the most like in southern Sweden and Denmark or upgun existing designs to stay within turret ring limitations such as upgunning the Landsverk L-60 to the Italian 47mm Cannone da 47/32 following Swedish tinkering with the gun as possible but more specifically the ammunition giving it more AT- penetration power in addition to the HE capability. The early upgrades was primarily done to the Finnish Army units due to its proximity to the Sovietunion. Italy initially economically broken following the Italian-Yugoslavian War had to wait to 1940 before new designs could be implemented following the discovery of oil in Libya; then Italy also began building medium tanks though the terrain in Italy limited the designs to be used there hence larger designs were build for use in Libya though in limited numbers propted British and French 75mm gun designs to be drawn up.
As tanks grew so did anti-tank weapons usually from 37mm guns to 45-50mm and even 75mm guns proposed though the Nordics began looking into recoilles weapons due to the terrain in Finland and Scandinavian Peninsula where most fighting was expected to take place if..
Doctrine also came into being; Great War use of Tanks was discarted mainly due to the reported Soviet use of Tanks in Manchuria but also the French and Czechoslovak experiences in Italy and Hungary played important roles. Tanks had to be able to move on their own and not be dependent on planned Artillery support. Tanks had to be able to react to the development on the battlefield on which they were moving demanding perception of the Tank Commander. Flying support would be another matter but cooperation of Tanks and Aircraft was still in its infancy and hadn't been worked out in Manchuria and certainly not in Italy and Hungary. Tanks also had to be able to move fast so as to minimize the risk of being targetted by fieldartillery and manhandled AT-weapons. France however were still much imbued with the Cavalry approach to tanks and their use in Italy had been on a limited frontwidth making for little tactical development however their men in the machines had another experience and was constantly pleading for more radios though getting word through was in the slow lane. The Italian design of heavy tanks for use in Libya prompted a new line of development of French tanks – larger with larger guns which prompted developing a larger turretring and larger turret but also more manageble guns or rather guns designed to fit into turrets and still leave room for crew operations.
Motorized Infantry following the Tanks were seen as a necessity as Tanks on their own was very limited in holding ground if just unable, which had been the case of the Soviets in Manchuria, but also to accompany the Tanks in movement and attack as well as wielding manhandled Anti-Tank weapons to fend off enemy Tanks. Infantry had suddenly found its new role on the battlefield. Here the French were much better off as the Italian experience had called for more Mobilization for the individual Motorized Infantry Division instead of a shared pool of Trucks and Buses to allocate from but also for radio to call in Artillery and Armour which in the indirect way helped get radios to more and more lower Tank Echelons.
Radio was found to be a necessity in a rapidly developing environment mostly relying on the experiences of General Rhöm in Xinkiang and Inner Mongolia/Manchuria. Radio was also a necessity to call upon Artillery support and neighboring and second eschelon units forward or where the Commander ordered. Possibilities of differences in perception in action was a possible but training should iron this out and make officers understand each others intentions.. The Germans, Nordics and Czechs were the ones first and most able to financially fit their vehicles with radio with the British following suit. The Sovietunion had decided to rely on the warwinning T-34 tank to take it forward; vehicle radios had been experienced a necessity but lack of production in numbers prohibited use of such in each vehicle. Even if the produced armourplates also had problems the numbers counted and production kept going. However on the human side the Soviets could rely on experiences from Manchuria.
On the fringe of Tank Doctrine development were the cooperation with Air units. Radio did help though command worked usually from Service to Service rather then between Commanders on the Battlefield. The Nordic's three minor countries still had their Airunits as integrated parts of Army or Navy while Sweden by 1925 following the lead of Great Britain created an independent Airforce. Thus the Danes, Finns and Norwegians had Airunits attached the Army commander on Land and Navy commander at Sea. The Hispano-Suiza aircraft engine that had been obtained for licence production from France by way of Czechoslovakia during the early 1930's had been build for carrying a cannon firing through the propeller hub a feature wanted by mainly Denmark at the time but as the engine had the feature it had gradually become a stable in all the Nordic countries to fit their fighter aircraft with an autocannon firing through the propeller hub and additional rifle calibre MG's in the wings. As the tanks gained prominence both AP and HE ammunition was supplied for the aircraft operations though the Aircraft wasn't expected to act as tank-busters.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 5, 2022 11:05:11 GMT
1944: Italy Italian economy did really well and served to generally uplift Italy. Late in the year the loss of Eritrea did little to society except whats happened; peoples in Italy cared little for East Africa – Libya being another matter. With oil industry booming more immigration to Libya was desired and a scheme of using some of the Oil Wealth to irrigate Cyrenaika was fostered. A green spot on the face of North Africa ought to do the job. It actually did which a regular ferry service from Benghazi to Reggio Calabria and later Athens, Greece served to also attracht Greeks – whereever there's seaborne trade there's Greeks – opened this year; Benghazi of course due to oil industry also sported an Airport but airtravel still being out of reach to the commoner. Italy having lost Eritrea to joint British/French aggression with the Ethiopians the proxy fuelled the political right demanding a more aggressive say in European matters mainly in the Balkans and not to depart with Somalia! To do so the right parties demanded more funds for the Armed Services though this was easily brushed off with reference to the rebuilding of Battleships and other Navy units as well as modernizing of Army and Airforce. The political demands on the Balkans were weathered by a referendum on the issue in which Government parties came out strengthened; the constituency considering their personal matters more important and wanting to live the good life now possible. Somalia was another kettle of fish though Government were ready to let go of it nobody was interested in taking over but nobody wanted an independent former colony at the moment leaving the annoying issue to the Italians. Somalia was kept up on subsidiary levels the recent war having shown that the Ethiopians didn't have the ability even if having the mind to do much about it. The loss of Eritrea was felt by Government but the referendum had shown Government to have the trust of the constituency. The right parties were somewhat muted by Somalia being kept aboard. Italy went back to relaxing in the Mediterranean Sun. In the Mediterranean Sun Italy had slowly reached the French level of coffee imports as coffee was cornering cheap Italian wine hithero being the passtime of poor Italians; now this segment of Italian society was reaping the benefits of oil. Those who had migrated to Cyrenaika began having visitors of family who had remained home who all liked the Italianness of the area with cafees and restaurants serving well known dishes and a countryside not unlike that at home in southern Italy. Slowly the number of migrants to Cyrenaika began climbing. The booming oilindustry in Great Syrte area bordering Cyrenaika demanded ever more agricultural produce filling the pockets of the farmers and drawing in more migrants. For once an Italian scheme seemed to work out. With the tolerance of the average Italian of other etnicities the Libyans also wound up in the upgoing spiral – those who wanted to, and a lot did – and more workers were attracted from the desert hinterlands. Because of the wast distances of Libya a new railway was begun building going from Tobruk in the east to Ajdabiya on the eastern end of the Great Syrte and inland from there to the oilfields. Also the Railways in the area of Tripolis in the west close to Tunesia was being developed to eventually link up with the oilfields. Most of the work being done by workers a lot of them Italians lured in by good pay but also why machine it when You had plenty hands just having to move them into the right spot; even if there was more money flowing into southern Italy Sicily had been wanting and now recruiting was done there and in Sardinia. A by-product not realized at the time was less organized crime in Southern Italy and Sicily; why go to a middleman when in want who would cash in a favour at an annoying time of Yours when You'd be able to pay the necessary and annoying small fee's needed to make authority give a thumps up to Your needs?Of course change take time and the described change here as earlier since the oil hit in Great Syrte area took most of a decade to be really felt but from the beginning even if small changes did happen which in the case of Italy's was felt earlier than such would have in France, Germany or Scandinavia due to the generally higher income per capita than in Italy.
I must admit I'm not certain about this. Groups like the Mafia have shown themselves capable of transporting themselves and their organisation to new locations, such as the way they moved with Italian migrants to the US. [Which made me think I don't know if they managed to establish themselves in Argentina which also took a lot of Italian settlers]. I wonder if the Italian government can keep Libya fairly clean of criminal gangs, in which case they might well be able to attack the problem at source in southern Italy as well. However the Mafia is still a problem today so not sure whether it will be that practical to clean them out.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Nov 5, 2022 12:14:55 GMT
1944: Italy Italian economy did really well and served to generally uplift Italy. Late in the year the loss of Eritrea did little to society except whats happened; peoples in Italy cared little for East Africa – Libya being another matter. With oil industry booming more immigration to Libya was desired and a scheme of using some of the Oil Wealth to irrigate Cyrenaika was fostered. A green spot on the face of North Africa ought to do the job. It actually did which a regular ferry service from Benghazi to Reggio Calabria and later Athens, Greece served to also attracht Greeks – whereever there's seaborne trade there's Greeks – opened this year; Benghazi of course due to oil industry also sported an Airport but airtravel still being out of reach to the commoner. Italy having lost Eritrea to joint British/French aggression with the Ethiopians the proxy fuelled the political right demanding a more aggressive say in European matters mainly in the Balkans and not to depart with Somalia! To do so the right parties demanded more funds for the Armed Services though this was easily brushed off with reference to the rebuilding of Battleships and other Navy units as well as modernizing of Army and Airforce. The political demands on the Balkans were weathered by a referendum on the issue in which Government parties came out strengthened; the constituency considering their personal matters more important and wanting to live the good life now possible. Somalia was another kettle of fish though Government were ready to let go of it nobody was interested in taking over but nobody wanted an independent former colony at the moment leaving the annoying issue to the Italians. Somalia was kept up on subsidiary levels the recent war having shown that the Ethiopians didn't have the ability even if having the mind to do much about it. The loss of Eritrea was felt by Government but the referendum had shown Government to have the trust of the constituency. The right parties were somewhat muted by Somalia being kept aboard. Italy went back to relaxing in the Mediterranean Sun. In the Mediterranean Sun Italy had slowly reached the French level of coffee imports as coffee was cornering cheap Italian wine hithero being the passtime of poor Italians; now this segment of Italian society was reaping the benefits of oil. Those who had migrated to Cyrenaika began having visitors of family who had remained home who all liked the Italianness of the area with cafees and restaurants serving well known dishes and a countryside not unlike that at home in southern Italy. Slowly the number of migrants to Cyrenaika began climbing. The booming oilindustry in Great Syrte area bordering Cyrenaika demanded ever more agricultural produce filling the pockets of the farmers and drawing in more migrants. For once an Italian scheme seemed to work out. With the tolerance of the average Italian of other etnicities the Libyans also wound up in the upgoing spiral – those who wanted to, and a lot did – and more workers were attracted from the desert hinterlands. Because of the wast distances of Libya a new railway was begun building going from Tobruk in the east to Ajdabiya on the eastern end of the Great Syrte and inland from there to the oilfields. Also the Railways in the area of Tripolis in the west close to Tunesia was being developed to eventually link up with the oilfields. Most of the work being done by workers a lot of them Italians lured in by good pay but also why machine it when You had plenty hands just having to move them into the right spot; even if there was more money flowing into southern Italy Sicily had been wanting and now recruiting was done there and in Sardinia. A by-product not realized at the time was less organized crime in Southern Italy and Sicily; why go to a middleman when in want who would cash in a favour at an annoying time of Yours when You'd be able to pay the necessary and annoying small fee's needed to make authority give a thumps up to Your needs?Of course change take time and the described change here as earlier since the oil hit in Great Syrte area took most of a decade to be really felt but from the beginning even if small changes did happen which in the case of Italy's was felt earlier than such would have in France, Germany or Scandinavia due to the generally higher income per capita than in Italy.
I must admit I'm not certain about this. Groups like the Mafia have shown themselves capable of transporting themselves and their organisation to new locations, such as the way they moved with Italian migrants to the US. [Which made me think I don't know if they managed to establish themselves in Argentina which also took a lot of Italian settlers]. I wonder if the Italian government can keep Libya fairly clean of criminal gangs, in which case they might well be able to attack the problem at source in southern Italy as well. However the Mafia is still a problem today so not sure whether it will be that practical to clean them out.
I understand You; I just have the impression that a better economy would be a lever in getting rid of organized crime or at least part of it. I don't see it as an idyllic situation but a much better one than OTL. Thats why I kept focus on economy as the Italian lever to change. I understand though that the Mafia was able to move along to the US because of the poverty of Italian migrants; they just brought along THEIR part of Italian society. ITTL Italy is in a much better situation and the Italian - Yugoslavian War of 1935 helped get rid - in the end - of the fascist regime and its political platform.
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