Dragon's Fury - World War against America and the West

[gillan1220]

Apr 9, 2022 16:12:06 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 9, 2022 16:03:26 GMT gillan1220 said:

Just like the president in Invasion by Eric L. Harry. The predecessor had to bare the brunt of the previous one's incompetence.

Was thinking about that novel as well when I typed the post you quoted.

I'm gonna finish the book soon. I'll update this thread where I am at: Australian resistance watching the war from space as something oddly beautiful from the ground.

[stevep]

Apr 9, 2022 15:35:26 GMT gillan1220 said:

Apr 9, 2022 15:26:28 GMT lordroel said:

It jumps the shark this map with Russian, Chinese North Koreans and Iranians in Canada.

This Russian tweet is funny propaganda. This implies the U.S. just abandoned the Monroe Doctrine and is now surrounded with its adversaries.

  I think the purpose is to claim that Russia is in a similar position to that displayed for the US here, totally surrounded by hostile powers.  Given that China is the nation with the longest border with Russia [possibly excepting Kazakhstan?] and the most powerful state that Russia borders I wonder how it would go down in Beijing?  

  Elsewhere I doubt any of the Stans, other than possibly Azerbaijan because of Russian support for Armenia would be classified as hostile and also Belarus is pretty much a puppet.  Turkey while technically a member of of NATO has tried to keep a fairly equal position.  To the west there is tension but that is overwhelmingly of Putin's making due to his aggressive actions.  For instance Sweden and Finland are likely to be rushed into NATO membership simply because they no longer feel safe as neutrals.

[gillan1220]

I read one part of the book the shook me to the core: The Western Allies bombs Mecca to the Stone Age.

So this is the part the Western Allies cross the moral event horizon, perhaps the most controversial of all. We already saw the previous chapters where North Korean soldiers kill a family in a cold blood and raped the women before killing them as well, or seeing those PLA shoot at unarmed Australians that failed to evacuate from Sydney before it fell in a Dunkirk fashion.

Quoting the book:

Waves of B-52H bombers performed the most intensive bombing raids since the Vietnam
War… all concentrated on the one, city. Wave after wave, the bombers came throughout the 8th, 9th
and 10th of June…non-stop.
Interspersed in with the ARC LITE bombing was the use of dozens of newly developed MOAB
II area demolition bombs. Mammoth 60,000 pound bombs that were delivered by specially configured C-17 Globe Master transports, dubbed B-17 IIs. Each of those behemoths was capable of
completely reducing entire city blocks. They were known as poor man's mini-non-nukes.


By the morning of the 9th, first hundreds…and then thousands of inhabitants and combatants
began exiting the ruined city. Any who came out with weapons in their hands, or who otherwise
attempted to fight were immediately shot down and killed.
Soon, all who came out were unarmed and nonbelligerent.
By the afternoon on the 9th, no major structure was left standing in the city. By noon on the 10th,
when the bombing campaign ended, not one stone was standing left upon another within Mecca.


An eerie silence fell across the face of the countryside in and around the remains of the city.
There was not so much as a moan coming from the ruins. That afternoon, allied scout, EOD and medic teams entered the city. Over a two day period,
fewer than 500 injured were pulled from the mounds of rubble. By the 14th of June, all rescue and
recovery efforts ceased. The allies did not intend to rebuild Mecca…they intended to send a message.
Over one hundred U.S. Army D-9 caterpillar bulldozers then appeared on the perimeter around
the city and converged on it. They literally covered over the smoldering debris and smoothed it out in
three days time.

A flat, desolate landscape then occupied the ground where once Mecca stood. All
debris, all ruined or discarded weapons-all bodies-had been buried there.
Atop this soil the allies sprinkled salt and then soaked the ground in swine fat. Around the
perimeter, and interspersed every five hundred yards within, the following metal signs were erected:

Here stood Mecca, until it was occupied by barbarians, terrorists and desecrators and those who harbored them, who then committed atrocities against the United States of America and the United Kingdom and their allies. 

Now there is nothing here but a desolation of pig-fat and salt.

Let the fate of this once great city be a clear message to all those who would desecrate that which is holy and who would consider committing similar atrocities against United States or United Kingdom forces, personnel or civilians.

To the innocent we allowed to escape we say-De Oppresso Libre! To the barbarians who died here we say-Sic Simper Tyranis!

I don't think the U.S. would actually bomb the holiest cities of Islam because that would rally the entire Islamic world against them and the West. I highlighted those words and underlined them to see what points I meant. 

Adding pig oil is more than putting salt on the wounds.

[stevep]

Apr 10, 2022 17:41:00 GMT gillan1220 said:

I read one part of the book the shook me to the core: The Western Allies bombs Mecca to the Stone Age.

So this is the part the Western Allies cross the moral event horizon, perhaps the most controversial of all. We already saw the previous chapters where North Korean soldiers kill a family in a cold blood and raped the women before killing them as well, or seeing those PLA shoot at unarmed Australians that failed to evacuate from Sydney before it fell in a Dunkirk fashion.

Quoting the book:

Waves of B-52H bombers performed the most intensive bombing raids since the Vietnam
War… all concentrated on the one, city. Wave after wave, the bombers came throughout the 8th, 9th
and 10th of June…non-stop.
Interspersed in with the ARC LITE bombing was the use of dozens of newly developed MOAB
II area demolition bombs. Mammoth 60,000 pound bombs that were delivered by specially configured C-17 Globe Master transports, dubbed B-17 IIs. Each of those behemoths was capable of
completely reducing entire city blocks. They were known as poor man's mini-non-nukes.


By the morning of the 9th, first hundreds…and then thousands of inhabitants and combatants
began exiting the ruined city. Any who came out with weapons in their hands, or who otherwise
attempted to fight were immediately shot down and killed.
Soon, all who came out were unarmed and nonbelligerent.
By the afternoon on the 9th, no major structure was left standing in the city. By noon on the 10th,
when the bombing campaign ended, not one stone was standing left upon another within Mecca.


An eerie silence fell across the face of the countryside in and around the remains of the city.
There was not so much as a moan coming from the ruins. That afternoon, allied scout, EOD and medic teams entered the city. Over a two day period,
fewer than 500 injured were pulled from the mounds of rubble. By the 14th of June, all rescue and
recovery efforts ceased. The allies did not intend to rebuild Mecca…they intended to send a message.
Over one hundred U.S. Army D-9 caterpillar bulldozers then appeared on the perimeter around
the city and converged on it. They literally covered over the smoldering debris and smoothed it out in
three days time.

A flat, desolate landscape then occupied the ground where once Mecca stood. All
debris, all ruined or discarded weapons-all bodies-had been buried there.
Atop this soil the allies sprinkled salt and then soaked the ground in swine fat. Around the
perimeter, and interspersed every five hundred yards within, the following metal signs were erected:

Here stood Mecca, until it was occupied by barbarians, terrorists and desecrators and those who harbored them, who then committed atrocities against the United States of America and the United Kingdom and their allies. 

Now there is nothing here but a desolation of pig-fat and salt.

Let the fate of this once great city be a clear message to all those who would desecrate that which is holy and who would consider committing similar atrocities against United States or United Kingdom forces, personnel or civilians.

To the innocent we allowed to escape we say-De Oppresso Libre! To the barbarians who died here we say-Sic Simper Tyranis!

I don't think the U.S. would actually bomb the holiest cities of Islam because that would rally the entire Islamic world against them and the West. I highlighted those words and underlined them to see what points I meant. 

Adding pig oil is more than putting salt on the wounds.

  gillan1220,

  Fully agree.  It would be a bloody stupid thing to do as even the main attack, let alone the pig fat afterwards would alienate the entire Muslim world for the foreseeable future.  Your basically talking about the only way peace would be achieve would be the killing/enslaving or bombing into the stone age just about the entire Muslim world.  From everything I've read in this thread the author sees a very black and white world which would fit such an idea and its possible that given the extreme nature of the violence involved some idiots would suggest something like this but hopefully some common sense would be applied.

  Steve

[simon darkshade]

It is absolutely effing juvenile, capped off by the idiotic Latin phrases.

If destruction was wanted, simply nuke the place. The entire attack process comes off as an onanistic fantasy by an author enraged by his own impotence to do anything. The methodology is wrong, as there weren't enough B-52s back then to waste on such a target, nor enough C-17s to bother with converting them, nor a need at all for an utterly massive bomb with no utility.

It isn't a 'poor man's mini non-nuke' (a crime against the English language if there ever was one), but a glowing neon sign pointing out that someone has a love of size for its own sake. A better result can be dealt with smaller weapons; dozens of MOAB IIs also indicates just a lack of any military sense here and a toddler like desire to smash something frustrating.

The pig fat thing is based on the online urban myth about Pershing doing the rounds in the early 2000s and didn't make sense then. Delicious porcine fat doesn't have a dangerous half life either and what is intended as a big ultra serious set piece about "Don't Treat on Me!!1!" comes across as ridiculous. Rather meta for the whole misbegotten story.

[gillan1220]

Apr 10, 2022 18:24:45 GMT stevep said:

  Fully agree.  It would be a bloody stupid thing to do as even the main attack, let alone the pig fat afterwards would alienate the entire Muslim world for the foreseeable future.  Your basically talking about the only way peace would be achieve would be the killing/enslaving or bombing into the stone age just about the entire Muslim world.  From everything I've read in this thread the author sees a very black and white world which would fit such an idea and its possible that given the extreme nature of the violence involved some idiots would suggest something like this but hopefully some common sense would be applied.

  Steve

Sure the GIR is lead by megalomaniac, but I always think the U.S. would not dare attack Mecca and Medina. They aren't barbaric as the GIR is.

It would have set a moral example.

Apr 11, 2022 2:09:50 GMT simon darkshade said:

It is absolutely effing juvenile, capped off by the idiotic Latin phrases.

If destruction was wanted, simply nuke the place. The entire attack process comes off as an onanistic fantasy by an author enraged by his own impotence to do anything. The methodology is wrong, as there weren't enough B-52s back then to waste on such a target, nor enough C-17s to bother with converting them, nor a need at all for an utterly massive bomb with no utility.

It isn't a 'poor man's mini non-nuke' (a crime against the English language if there ever was one), but a glowing neon sign pointing out that someone has a love of size for its own sake. A better result can be dealt with smaller weapons; dozens of MOAB IIs also indicates just a lack of any military sense here and a toddler like desire to smash something frustrating.

The pig fat thing is based on the online urban myth about Pershing doing the rounds in the early 2000s and didn't make sense then. Delicious porcine fat doesn't have a dangerous half life either and what is intended as a big ultra serious set piece about "Don't Treat on Me!!1!" comes across as ridiculous. Rather meta for the whole misbegotten story.

Even as there was anger after 9/11, not even Bush was going to touch the Holiest Cities of Islam. Only the far-right made claims about wanting to nuke it. I don't even think it's justified in this story, even if he GIR took over Mecca. I'm guessing President John Bowers had enough bullshit of the GIR and CAS antics that he just wanted to bomb them to oblivion.

There was this myth about the U.S. Army desecrating the bodies of Muslim insurgents with pig fat during the Moro rebellion in the Philippines. Others include dousing their bullets with lard since the Moros were forbidden to touch pig fat.

[simon darkshade]

No one in any degree of power wanted to; beyond that, it was not confined to the far right. Silliness and overreaction transcended politics.

Don’t try and rationalise the author’s choices. This wasn’t a case of a character making a decision, but the author stating what he thought should happen. There simply isn’t the depth in this screed.

I’m well aware of the Philippines origin of the Pershing pig fat myth - I was well and truly around on the Internet in 2001. Bunkum then and bunkum now.

Head manages to capture some of the inchoate rage that came out of 9/11, but maintained it through to 2005 whilst managing to be unreconstructed, as it were.

[gillan1220]

Apr 11, 2022 12:08:54 GMT simon darkshade said:

No one in any degree of power wanted to; beyond that, it was not confined to the far right. Silliness and overreaction transcended politics.

Don’t try and rationalise the author’s choices. This wasn’t a case of a character making a decision, but the author stating what he thought should happen. There simply isn’t the depth in this screed.

I’m well aware of the Philippines origin of the Pershing pig fat myth - I was well and truly around on the Internet in 2001. Bunkum then and bunkum now.

Head manages to capture some of the inchoate rage that came out of 9/11, but maintained it through to 2005 whilst managing to be unreconstructed, as it were.

lukedalton mentions Mr. Head is the typical right-wing nut who is paranoid about an Eastern-Arab-Latino Alliance hellbent to destroy Western democracy to quote The Interview (2014), "they hate us 'cause they ain't us."

How did Americans in 2004-2005 view China? Probably not the same threat as it is now for sure. My guess is that the view of China at this period was a friendly rival and not the next Cold War 2.0 adversary of the 2020s.

[gillan1220]

One thing is certain. This novel predicted the formation of the United States Space Force. However even in 2022, the USSF has no space warships unlike this book.

[simon darkshade]

Apr 11, 2022 22:10:56 GMT gillan1220 said:

Apr 11, 2022 12:08:54 GMT simon darkshade said:

No one in any degree of power wanted to; beyond that, it was not confined to the far right. Silliness and overreaction transcended politics.

Don’t try and rationalise the author’s choices. This wasn’t a case of a character making a decision, but the author stating what he thought should happen. There simply isn’t the depth in this screed.

I’m well aware of the Philippines origin of the Pershing pig fat myth - I was well and truly around on the Internet in 2001. Bunkum then and bunkum now.

Head manages to capture some of the inchoate rage that came out of 9/11, but maintained it through to 2005 whilst managing to be unreconstructed, as it were.

lukedalton mentions Mr. Head is the typical right-wing nut who is paranoid about an Eastern-Arab-Latino Alliance hellbent to destroy Western democracy to quote The Interview (2014), "they hate us 'cause they ain't us."

How did Americans in 2004-2005 view China? Probably not the same threat as it is now for sure. My guess is that the view of China at this period was a friendly rival and not the next Cold War 2.0 adversary of the 2020s.

Absolutely not friendly rivals. Not a hint of friendliness. This was the epoch of China being the growing threat, not too long after the Taiwan Straits flare up of 1996 and the spy plane crisis of 2001.

Just because the greater threat was seen as terrorism did not mean that there was an embrace of China.

Head’s concerns, though they cross the line into silliness in his style and lack of ability to write his way out of a paper bag, didn’t come from nowhere. There was the threat of terrorism, the looming challenge of China and a large concern over illegal immigration from Latin America.

[gillan1220]

Apr 13, 2022 8:55:51 GMT simon darkshade said:

Apr 11, 2022 22:10:56 GMT gillan1220 said:

lukedalton mentions Mr. Head is the typical right-wing nut who is paranoid about an Eastern-Arab-Latino Alliance hellbent to destroy Western democracy to quote The Interview (2014), "they hate us 'cause they ain't us."

How did Americans in 2004-2005 view China? Probably not the same threat as it is now for sure. My guess is that the view of China at this period was a friendly rival and not the next Cold War 2.0 adversary of the 2020s.

Absolutely not friendly rivals. Not a hint of friendliness. This was the epoch of China being the growing threat, not too long after the Taiwan Straits flare up of 1996 and the spy plane crisis of 2001.

Just because the greater threat was seen as terrorism did not mean that there was an embrace of China.

Head’s concerns, though they cross the line into silliness in his style and lack of ability to write his way out of a paper bag, didn’t come from nowhere. There was the threat of terrorism, the looming challenge of China and a large concern over illegal immigration from Latin America.

Fair enough. China was marked by STRATCOM as the OPFOR once more in 1992.

However, both Clinton and Bush Jr. did try to cozy up to China. It was under Clinton when China was admitted to the WTO and the accidental bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999. The Third Taiwan Strait Crisis in 1995-96 proved to the PLA that they could not take on the might of the United States in Asia, so it caused the PLA to hasten modernization. That's why the PLA now has ballistic missiles capable of hitting USN CBGs and even bases as far Guam.

The spy plane incident in April 2001 was more of a headache than a threat, especially since that EP-3 was dissected and returned to America in pieces. No embrace of China but in 2004-2005, the Pentagon were closely monitoring China's rise while being also in the middle of Iraq and Afghanistan. I think the serious concern was when China tested an A-SAT missile in January 2007, that's when the Pentagon finally acknowledged China's growing threat.

Then the 2010s showed Chinese aggressiveness in the South China Sea and the East China Sea.

At the time this novel was written, terrorism from the "brown" people was the main concern of the American public rather than the Chinese rise. Illegal immigration from Latin America was also not the main focus of politics.

[simon darkshade]

Once again, you state something that simply wasn't the case.

Illegal immigration was a growing and pressing issue for a lot of Americans in 2004/2005. I remember taking part in the discussions of it, reading it, watching it and listening to it.

Reaction to China was never abandoned nor cosied up to; the die had been cast in the second Clinton term in strategic terms, even as there was an ill-advised push to bring them into the WTO and bind them closely to the international system.

In the Bush years, there was a growing hostility if anything else, which had been coming since Tiananmen Square in 1989. The spy plane incident did cause a pretty large political reaction and politics is downstream of culture. Stratcom stuff doesn't matter - politics matters, as warfare is the continuation of politics by other means. There was even a certain keenness, just as there is now, to get the Middle East out of the way so that they could focus on China.

The Red Chinese have missiles nominally capable of hitting a CVBG...as long as it is following the Chinese playbook and not using its whole range of capabilities, including that darn cheating habit of shooting back.

If anything, it wasn't the colour of the enemy, but their beliefs and their religion that was the big issue for the majority of certain people back then.

[gillan1220]

I'm at the chapter where the Indian President, KP Narayannen, is arrested by the Indian Defense Minister after the President tried to secure a separate peace with the West.

[lordroel]

Apr 16, 2022 15:26:01 GMT gillan1220 said:

I'm at the chapter where the Indian President, KP Narayannen, is arrested by the Indian Defense Minister after the President tried to secure a separate peace with the West.

A the subplot where a hardcore member tries to prevent peace being made.

[gillan1220]

Apr 16, 2022 15:28:42 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 16, 2022 15:26:01 GMT gillan1220 said:

I'm at the chapter where the Indian President, KP Narayannen, is arrested by the Indian Defense Minister after the President tried to secure a separate peace with the West.

A the subplot where a hardcore member tries to prevent peace being made.

Yep. Now India is in a civil war. The pro-Narayannen forces have aligned with the West while the pro-Patel forces have the Chinese military on their side. We are approaching the climax.