East Prussis from 1939 to 1914

[melanie]

Poor Tsar… poor Kaiser… having to with Nazi East Prussia. Are there Dachau type camps in 1939 East Prussia?

[Otto Kretschmer]

Feb 7, 2022 16:38:04 GMT melanie said:

Poor Tsar… poor Kaiser… having to with Nazi East Prussia. Are there Dachau type camps in 1939 East Prussia?

They have limited supplies and pledge loyalty to the Kaiser

While the forces are made of just a single army, it's combat potential is much higher than any ww1 army. Small unit tactics, communications, logistics, combined arms operations etc are all 25 years ahead.

[stevep]

Feb 7, 2022 16:38:04 GMT melanie said:

Poor Tsar… poor Kaiser… having to with Nazi East Prussia. Are there Dachau type camps in 1939 East Prussia?

  I would agree with Otto Kretschmer, that they wouldn't be sustainable for long and would quickly come to terms with imperial Germany.  You don't say when in the two years the ISOT occurs.  If its before FF's assassination or even simply before the armies march towards the end of July 1914 then Wilhelm II has the chance to avoid the war if he wants.  After that its too late but the two Russian armies that OTL moved into E Prussia are going to suffer an even worse fate here.  If war occurs then the allies are going to suffer very badly.

  Not sure about the technological and industrial base of E Prussia in 1939, assuming it doesn't include Danzig but there's bound to be information and some production of things like markedly more modern radios and other electronic equipment and I think at least some of the German KM were in the region and took part in the attack on Poland.  Also if toward the start of the war then definitely going to be some a/c there.

[Otto Kretschmer]

ISOT is from August 30 1939 to August 1 1914.

They get the Panzer Division Kempf which is half the size I f a typical Panzer Division but is still a very powerful force for 1914.

A 1939 infantry division can defeat a 1914 corps due to advantage in communication.

[lordroel]

Feb 7, 2022 16:38:04 GMT melanie said:

Poor Tsar… poor Kaiser… having to with Nazi East Prussia. Are there Dachau type camps in 1939 East Prussia?

A advice, when creating a thread it better to say what happens instead of answering the thread title.

[575]

Feb 8, 2022 16:23:01 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

ISOT is from August 30 1939 to August 1 1914.

They get the Panzer Division Kempf which is half the size I f a typical Panzer Division but is still a very powerful force for 1914.

A 1939 infantry division can defeat a 1914 corps due to advantage in communication.

That may be impressive but even more so Luftgau Königsberg with Jadggeschwader 1, JG 21 total -72 Messerschmitt Bf-109D/E, and LW Kommando Ostpreussen commanding KG3 -36 Do17Z, I/Stg.1 -36 Ju87B, Lehr Division with Lehrgr. 1/I -36 Bf-109D/110, 1/II -36 He111H and KG2 I -36 Do17M, II -36 Do17Z.

You may well nitpick some units as this was just a quick lookup at The Luftwaffe

Have a nice day.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Feb 8, 2022 19:45:22 GMT 575 said:

Feb 8, 2022 16:23:01 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

ISOT is from August 30 1939 to August 1 1914.

They get the Panzer Division Kempf which is half the size I f a typical Panzer Division but is still a very powerful force for 1914.

A 1939 infantry division can defeat a 1914 corps due to advantage in communication.

That may be impressive but even more so Luftgau Königsberg with Jadggeschwader 1, JG 21 total -72 Messerschmitt Bf-109D/E, and LW Kommando Ostpreussen commanding KG3 -36 Do17Z, I/Stg.1 -36 Ju87B, Lehr Division with Lehrgr. 1/I -36 Bf-109D/110, 1/II -36 He111H and KG2 I -36 Do17M, II -36 Do17Z.

You may well nitpick some units as this was just a quick lookup at The Luftwaffe

Have a nice day.

Should the Panzer Division Kempf be redeployed to the west?

[575]

Feb 8, 2022 20:18:52 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Feb 8, 2022 19:45:22 GMT 575 said:

That may be impressive but even more so Luftgau Königsberg with Jadggeschwader 1, JG 21 total -72 Messerschmitt Bf-109D/E, and LW Kommando Ostpreussen commanding KG3 -36 Do17Z, I/Stg.1 -36 Ju87B, Lehr Division with Lehrgr. 1/I -36 Bf-109D/110, 1/II -36 He111H and KG2 I -36 Do17M, II -36 Do17Z.

You may well nitpick some units as this was just a quick lookup at The Luftwaffe

Have a nice day.

Should the Panzer Division Kempf be redeployed to the west?

With 3. Army in East Prussia having three Corps with 7 Infantry, 1 Cavalry Divisions, one Panzer Battalion and at least one OKH Reserve Infantry Division around and a group of three Border Guards Divisions/Brigades one of which were at Königsberg the other two on the Prussian-Polish border facing the Polish Narew Group which ITTL would be facing Rennenkampf's 1. Army.

Let the two reserve Infantry Divisions and Cavalry Division reinforce the Border Guards to supported by LW crush Rennenkampf and have the three Corps of 3. Army hit Samsonov's 2. Army.

I'd leave Panzer Kempf in the East to following the defeat of 1., 2. Armies turn south to roll up the Russians from the north occupying Warsaw in the process and block Russian reinforcements.

Take Russia out in 1914  and then turn West. Let the A-H occupy the Eastern provinces and Turkey the southern; if they get across the Caucasus..

You might even have a few modern Destroyers and Submarines coming along.

The real boost will be the early Luftwaffe Biplanes of 1920's/30's vintage; get the Imperial Germans to build those that will be far more advanced than what the Western Allies can put up. Don't know how many would be present in East Prussia but possible a substantial number to add to reconnaisance in the west and hunt down the few Allied recce planes. No gap at Marne.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Can Russia truly be taken out in 1914 with the forces at hand?



Do I understand you correctly that you want to defeat Rennenkampf and Samsonov in East Prussia and then use the troops to drive to the rear of Russian troops opposite of AH?

[575]

Feb 9, 2022 20:13:27 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Can Russia truly be taken out in 1914 with the forces at hand?



Do I understand you correctly that you want to defeat Rennenkampf and Samsonov in East Prussia and then use the troops to drive to the rear of Russian troops opposite of AH?

Its obvious to defeat R and S and then go for Warsaw. I think in the end it would be a better position for Germany to have a secure back and cereals supply than gamble on taking out the WAllies in 1914.

Of course you may argue the opposite.

And of course Russia may be a stretch with forces available but You did argue the 1939 Germans holding a vast superiority over 1914 troops.

Not just troops but the force multiplier of LW.

1914 Germany will be able to supply 7,92 Mauser ammo for 1939 rifles and at least 75mm artillery shells so the 1939 troops may keep going. Also 1939 logistics isn't much more advanced than 1914 - trains and horsedrawn carriage plus some trucks.

And all 1939 senior German officers have personal knowledge of WWI from participating as does numbers of their troops.

Of course go in the rear of the Russians and cut off their logistics but again use LW to hammer railyards to impede Russian movement of logistics and hit HQs. With 1939 radiointercept it should be possible to triangulate the Russian HQs and send off LW to take them out.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Feb 9, 2022 20:49:21 GMT 575 said:

Feb 9, 2022 20:13:27 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Can Russia truly be taken out in 1914 with the forces at hand?



Do I understand you correctly that you want to defeat Rennenkampf and Samsonov in East Prussia and then use the troops to drive to the rear of Russian troops opposite of AH?

Its obvious to defeat R and S and then go for Warsaw. I think in the end it would be a better position for Germany to have a secure back and cereals supply than gamble on taking out the WAllies in 1914.

Of course you may argue the opposite.

And of course Russia may be a stretch with forces available but You did argue the 1939 Germans holding a vast superiority over 1914 troops.

Not just troops but the force multiplier of LW.

1914 Germany will be able to supply 7,92 Mauser ammo for 1939 rifles and at least 75mm artillery shells so the 1939 troops may keep going. Also 1939 logistics isn't much more advanced than 1914 - trains and horsedrawn carriage plus some trucks.

And all 1939 senior German officers have personal knowledge of WWI from participating as does numbers of their troops.

Of course go in the rear of the Russians and cut off their logistics but again use LW to hammer railyards to impede Russian movement of logistics and hit HQs. With 1939 radiointercept it should be possible to triangulate the Russian HQs and send off LW to take them out.

The 1939 German army was trained and equipped with ww1 experience in mind. I was worried about lack of ammo but you answered it already.



1914 German division had 76x 7.7 cm field guns + 24x HMGs. 1939 one had 36x 10 cm howitzer + 12x 15 cm howitzer + mire arty at lower levels