Hitler dies during his regime (non-assassination)

[melanie]

Hitler biographer Ian Kershaw points out that Hitler was in poor shape long before the July 20 Bomb Plot and that by the early 1940s he was showing distinct symptoms of early onset dementia.


So what if he dies quite a bit earlier:


After Memel but before Poland?


After Munich but before Bohemia and Moravia?


Before the annexation of Austria?


Before the remilitarisation of the Rhineland? 


After the Night of the Long Knives but before President Hindenburg's death?


After the December 1933 sham German federal election but before the Night of the Long Knives?

[lordroel]

Oct 2, 2022 8:40:18 GMT melanie said:

Hitler biographer Ian Kershaw points out that Hitler was in poor shape long before the July 20 Bomb Plot and that by the early 1940s he was showing distinct symptoms of early onset dementia.


So what if he dies quite a bit earlier:


After Memel but before Poland?


After Munich but before Bohemia and Moravia?


Before the annexation of Austria?


Before the remilitarisation of the Rhineland? 


After the Night of the Long Knives but before President Hindenburg's death?


After the December 1933 sham German federal election but before the Night of the Long Knives?

Now the question, who will take the reign if he dies.

[melanie]

lordroel,

Goering is acceptable to the military, Prussian landowners, and big business. Plus, he's a genuine decorated veteran of the Great War.

If Hitler dies during the peacetime portion of Nazi Germany, Fat Hermann will get his pie.

[lordroel]

Oct 2, 2022 13:04:01 GMT melanie said:

lordroel,

Goering is acceptable to the military, Prussian landowners, and big business. Plus, he's a genuine decorated veteran of the Great War.

If Hitler dies during the peacetime portion of Nazi Germany, Fat Hermann will get his pie.

But is Rudolf Hess not the Deputy Führer in most of your PODs, okay he does not have the charm and influence of Goering but he is still Deputy Führer.

[melanie]

Oct 2, 2022 13:06:52 GMT lordroel said:

Oct 2, 2022 13:04:01 GMT melanie said:

lordroel ,

Goering is acceptable to the military, Prussian landowners, and big business. Plus, he's a genuine decorated veteran of the Great War.

If Hitler dies during the peacetime portion of Nazi Germany, Fat Hermann will get his pie.

But is Rudolf Hess not the Deputy Führer in most of your PODs, okay he does not have the charm and influence of Goering but he is still Deputy Führer.

Hess was considered a light weight and has no power base.

[lordroel]

Oct 2, 2022 14:39:01 GMT melanie said:

Oct 2, 2022 13:06:52 GMT lordroel said:

But is Rudolf Hess not the Deputy Führer in most of your PODs, okay he does not have the charm and influence of Goering but he is still Deputy Führer.

Hess was considered a light weight and has no power base.

Well then what about Himmler.

[melanie]

The chief of the secret police almost never takes over. Everyone else unites against him.

[michelvan]

the moment that annoying bastard died
there will be civil war in Reich
Because the top of Third reich will murder each other to get to the Top

who will win ?

Martin Borman - NO - his power is based he is Führer secretary, after that dead, game over for Borman
Goebbles -NO - minister of Propaganda, but need allies to get to top
Rudolf Hess - MAYBE - he has the SA that he could use to get to the top - but doubtful if he intelligent enough for that.
Ernst Röhm - CERTAIN - if still alive, he would use the SA to get to top
Göring - MAYBE - Reichsluftfahrtsminister, got his own army and Luftwaffe/ Paratroppers - but total incompetent !
Heinrich Himmer and Reinhard Heydrich - CERTAIN - the most dangerous duo in Third Reich with own Army: the SS and GESTAPO

[gillan1220]

Pray it isn't Heydrich. He'd be worse than Hitler and may even start World War II earlier than OTL.

[michelvan]

Oct 4, 2022 10:52:41 GMT gillan1220 said:

Pray it isn't Heydrich.

He was cooled blooded calculating, manipulating Nightmare...
he not only to exterminate enemies of Third reich, he wanted to cleanse the German people of any halfbreed down three generations
He would have exterminated millions over millions to gain his goal

[lordroel]

Oct 4, 2022 16:18:41 GMT michelvan said:

Oct 4, 2022 10:52:41 GMT gillan1220 said:

Pray it isn't Heydrich.

He was cooled blooded calculating, manipulating Nightmare...
he not only to exterminate enemies of Third reich, he wanted to cleanse the German people of any halfbreed down three generations
He would have exterminated millions over millions to gain his goal

But he was not yet the ultimate monster before he was shot in OTL, he still answer to Himmler so i do not think he is strong enough to become the next Furher.

[1bigrich]

Oct 2, 2022 8:40:18 GMT melanie said:

Hitler biographer Ian Kershaw points out that Hitler was in poor shape long before the July 20 Bomb Plot and that by the early 1940s he was showing distinct symptoms of early onset dementia.

Interesting concept.

After the Night of the Long Knives but before President Hindenburg's death?


After the December 1933 sham German federal election but before the Night of the Long Knives?

I think those are the toughest calls. With Hindenburg still alive, everything depends on him and his decisions....

[1bigrich]

Oct 2, 2022 15:20:34 GMT michelvan said:

the moment that annoying bastard died
there will be civil war in Reich
Because the top of Third reich will murder each other to get to the Top

who will win ?

Martin Borman - NO - his power is based he is Führer secretary, after that dead, game over for Borman
Goebbles -NO - minister of Propaganda, but need allies to get to top
Rudolf Hess - MAYBE - he has the SA that he could use to get to the top - but doubtful if he intelligent enough for that.
Ernst Röhm - CERTAIN - if still alive, he would use the SA to get to top
Göring - MAYBE - Reichsluftfahrtsminister, got his own army and Luftwaffe/ Paratroppers - but total incompetent !
Heinrich Himmer and Reinhard Heydrich - CERTAIN - the most dangerous duo in Third Reich with own Army: the SS and GESTAPO

Fundamentally agree with your analysis of the personalities, but I disagree on a civil war.    

I think if the various National Socialist factions come into conflict with one another, at some point (probably after a number of bodies are stacked to weaken all sides) the Army  is going to intervene to restore order, and a Military dictatorship would be in the cards, but not a Nazi one.

Survival of the leaders of the various factions depends on the party staying in power, maintaining order and stability and NOT showing weakness or division.

I think a triumvirate is possible:

 - Goering is one of the most popular men in the Reich and is seen as a war hero.    He's a perfect figurehead.
 - Hess is a good choice to keep the SA at bay and under control
 - Himmler with the SS under him is perfect enforcer, power behind the throne

Rohm has to go; he's too ambitious and will definitely make a move at some point without Hitler.    The Night of the Long Knives suggests many suspected he might have done so even with Hitler. 
I think Borman, Goebbles and Heydrich have roles in the leadership, but not directly.   One of them might step into the triumvirate if one of the three fails/passes/meets with an untimely accident.

To melanie's point in the initial post, the timing might be an important factor.

My thoughts, 

[Max Sinister]

With Göring in charge, there might well be no World War. On the German althist wiki some guy (not me) has written a well-researched TL about it.

Himmler'd be different, but as others said, everyone else would probably ally against him.

Of course, that'll open the question: What will the next "führer" do, with so many weapons and so much debt? Declare bankruptcy, have the Germans work less while being paid less as well, and risk an uprising?

Or would he contact Poland and the western European states and suggest making war against the Soviet Union? Together, they might have a chance to win. But would they want to?

[stevep]

Oct 7, 2022 23:50:18 GMT Max Sinister said:

With Göring in charge, there might well be no World War. On the German althist wiki some guy (not me) has written a well-researched TL about it.

Himmler'd be different, but as others said, everyone else would probably ally against him.

Of course, that'll open the question: What will the next "führer" do, with so many weapons and so much debt? Declare bankruptcy, have the Germans work less while being paid less as well, and risk an uprising?

Or would he contact Poland and the western European states and suggest making war against the Soviet Union? Together, they might have a chance to win. But would they want to?

  The western powers wouldn't want to because they were that averse to war and also the costs of such a conflict.  Poland and some of the other eastern European states might be interested but they might not be very confident about victory without the OTL shock victories in the west.  If Goring could maneuver Stalin into attacking someone or looking like it then its a possibility but would take some doing.

  Furthermore does that really solve the social/economic problem for the regime?  Waging a massive war won't ease their fiscal problems and while their doing it they can't really cut arms production to save money.  Plus until their some way into the USSR can they expect much loot to ease the economic problem?