Navy of the Kingdom of Asturies (Q&A)

[lordroel]

Its January 1st 2022, by the order of Queen Adélaïde III of the Kingdom of Asturies (French: Royaume de Asturies) depicted as the blue island on the map, the Minister of the Navy (French: Ministre de la Marine) has ordered me Counter admiral Hendrikx to answer all question related to naval matters, past, present and future related to the La Marine royale Asturies.

Flag of the Kingdom of Asturies.



Little bit of History: the Kingdom of Asturies was formerly part of the Kingdom of Asturias but a war in 911 AD between the Kingdom of Asturias and Kingdom of the West Franks saw the island part of Asturies becoming part of the Kingdom of the West Franks and latter the Kingdom of France, It was only after the War of the Spanish Succession when the Kingdom of Asturies got its independence after having been invaded by the British in 1702.

The Kingdom of Asturies in 2022

[1bigrich]

Interesting idea.

Similar to Rick Robinson's Tarrantry, but closer inshore to the continent. And unlike Tarrantry, definitely NOT a third Britannic island.

I think we need a little more information. Who are Asturies' historic rivals? For past forces, how were timber supplies on the island? Did they have to resort to importing timber and if so, what types and from where?
( I recall HMS Macedonian was built of "Danzig Oak" imported from the continent. It turned out to be pine, and she was 'rebuilt' by the USN after her capture by USS United States. The pine ship was scrapped, but the replacement was so exact a copy when a musician employed by the RN aboard her visited the new ship in US service, he did not recognize a difference...)

Further questions: What is the economy like? Are there any overseas holdings? What were the country's positions in World War I and World War II?

More recently, have they been part of any multi-national efforts like FREMM or MEKO designs, etc.?

Regards,

[lordroel]

Jan 23, 2023 15:39:24 GMT 1bigrich said:

Interesting idea.

Similar to Rick Robinson's Tarrantry, but closer inshore to the continent. And unlike Tarrantry, definitely NOT a third Britannic island.

I think we need a little more information. Who are Asturies' historic rivals? For past forces, how were timber supplies on the island? Did they have to resort to importing timber and if so, what types and from where?
( I recall HMS Macedonian was built of "Danzig Oak" imported from the continent. It turned out to be pine, and she was 'rebuilt' by the USN after her capture by USS United States. The pine ship was scrapped, but the replacement was so exact a copy when a musician employed by the RN aboard her visited the new ship in US service, he did not recognize a difference...)

Further questions: What is the economy like? Are there any overseas holdings? What were the country's positions in World War I and World War II?

More recently, have they been part of any multi-national efforts like FREMM or MEKO designs, etc.?

Regards,

Yes, Tarrantry was my inspiration, but Asturies has a bit of Spanish, French and British mix to it.

Well Spain would be a good rival, after the French took it in 911 AD from the Kingdom of Asturias they could have tried several times to retake it, as well of course the French after Asturies  became a independent country thanks to British., in fact a French-Spanish invasion fleet was destroyed by a Anglo-Asturies fleet during the Peninsular War.

The climate of Asturies is like the mainland Asturias (Spain), so plenty of trees to go around.

Well Asturies did fight on the side of the British in Seven Years' War, so one of the islands (St. Vincent, Tobago, Dominica, and Grenada) could have been seized by Asturies.

Asturies fought alongside the British and French during both the First and Second World War.

Asturies has a population of roughly 5 million in 1940 and 8 million as of 2022, and a strong naval tradition as the navy has saved it from being invaded by Spain, France and of course the Germans.

[stevep]

Jan 23, 2023 16:02:33 GMT lordroel said:

Jan 23, 2023 15:39:24 GMT 1bigrich said:

Interesting idea.

Similar to Rick Robinson's Tarrantry, but closer inshore to the continent. And unlike Tarrantry, definitely NOT a third Britannic island.

I think we need a little more information. Who are Asturies' historic rivals? For past forces, how were timber supplies on the island? Did they have to resort to importing timber and if so, what types and from where?
( I recall HMS Macedonian was built of "Danzig Oak" imported from the continent. It turned out to be pine, and she was 'rebuilt' by the USN after her capture by USS United States. The pine ship was scrapped, but the replacement was so exact a copy when a musician employed by the RN aboard her visited the new ship in US service, he did not recognize a difference...)

Further questions: What is the economy like? Are there any overseas holdings? What were the country's positions in World War I and World War II?

More recently, have they been part of any multi-national efforts like FREMM or MEKO designs, etc.?

Regards,

Yes, Tarrantry was my inspiration, but Asturies has a bit of Spanish, French and British mix to it.

Well Spain would be a good rival, after the French took it in 911 AD from the Kingdom of Asturias they could have tried several times to retake it, as well of course the French after Asturies  became a independent country thanks to British., in fact a French-Spanish invasion fleet was destroyed by a Anglo-Asturies fleet during the Peninsular War.

The climate of Asturies is like the mainland Asturias (Spain), so plenty of trees to go around.

Well Asturies did fight on the side of the British in Seven Years' War, so one of the islands (St. Vincent, Tobago, Dominica, and Grenada) could have been seized by Asturies.

Asturies fought alongside the British and French during both the First and Second World War.

Asturies has a population of roughly 5 million and a strong naval tradition as the navy has saved it from being invaded by Spain, France and of course the Germans.

  Ah that last bit is interesting as it meant Asturies stayed outside Axis control during WWII despite the fall of France.  That could have been costly but also makes it very useful for operations against U boats if they were based in western France OTL.  Also possibly as a base for air and even land operations against Axis occupied France.

[lordroel]

Jan 23, 2023 17:34:38 GMT stevep said:

Jan 23, 2023 16:02:33 GMT lordroel said:

Yes, Tarrantry was my inspiration, but Asturies has a bit of Spanish, French and British mix to it.

Well Spain would be a good rival, after the French took it in 911 AD from the Kingdom of Asturias they could have tried several times to retake it, as well of course the French after Asturies  became a independent country thanks to British., in fact a French-Spanish invasion fleet was destroyed by a Anglo-Asturies fleet during the Peninsular War.

The climate of Asturies is like the mainland Asturias (Spain), so plenty of trees to go around.

Well Asturies did fight on the side of the British in Seven Years' War, so one of the islands (St. Vincent, Tobago, Dominica, and Grenada) could have been seized by Asturies.

Asturies fought alongside the British and French during both the First and Second World War.

Asturies has a population of roughly 5 million and a strong naval tradition as the navy has saved it from being invaded by Spain, France and of course the Germans.

  Ah that last bit is interesting as it meant Asturies stayed outside Axis control during WWII despite the fall of France.  That could have been costly but also makes it very useful for operations against U boats if they were based in western France OTL.  Also possibly as a base for air and even land operations against Axis occupied France.

Yep, there was a Battle of Asturies both by sea and air, but that was mostly to keep Asturies of balance, but that shifted when the Americans began arriving from 1942 onwards.

[1bigrich]

Jan 23, 2023 16:02:33 GMT lordroel said:

Yes, Tarrantry was my inspiration, but Asturies has a bit of Spanish, French and British mix to it.

Well Spain would be a good rival, after the French took it in 911 AD from the Kingdom of Asturias they could have tried several times to retake it, as well of course the French after Asturies  became a independent country thanks to British., in fact a French-Spanish invasion fleet was destroyed by a Anglo-Asturies fleet during the Peninsular War.

The climate of Asturies is like the mainland Asturias (Spain), so plenty of trees to go around.

Well Asturies did fight on the side of the British in Seven Years' War, so one of the islands (St. Vincent, Tobago, Dominica, and Grenada) could have been seized by Asturies.

Asturies fought alongside the British and French during both the First and Second World War.

Asturies has a population of roughly 5 million and a strong naval tradition as the navy has saved it from being invaded by Spain, France and of course the Germans.

For anyone wondering what Tarrantry is, you can get some background on Rick Robinson's Observatory site here


rocketpunk-observatory.com/tarrantry.htm

Given the proximity of the island to Gaul and Brittany (Bretagne) the island probably had a Celtic population and was likely conquered by the Romans, probably before the conquest of Britain.  It was probably abandoned by Rome at the same time Britain was, but given the later ties to Spain was probably occupied by Visigoths instead of Saxons, Angles and Jutes like Romano-Britain.  I would think the Romano-Celtic culture would be supplanted by the Visigoths.  The island of Asturies probably helped northern Spain/Asturias resist the Muslim invasion from 711-718, and likely had problems with Viking Raids, as well as having Viking settlers, in the next two centuries.   

911 AD was the year Rollo (Viking) became Christian and settled in Normandy as a vassal of Charles III.  Perhaps a similar circumstance resulted in Asturies' ruler, be he Visigoth, Romano-Celt, Norse or a combination, becoming a vassal of Charles and part of France instead of Spain?

But onto the question:

In the sail era, once independent, I would think there would be station ship in the West Indies, early on smaller frigates like 32 or 36 guns along with the usual corvettes, sloops and brigs.   At home, I would think there would be a couple squadrons of Frigates and a squadron on line-of-battleships (likely 64s early on, later 74s) perhaps lead by a couple 98 or 100 gun flagships.  In the late 18th and early 19th century, as larger frigates become popular, I would think the smaller frigates would be replaced by ships similar to the RN's Portland class (50 guns) or the USNs Consititution/President type (44 guns officially, though ported for 52)

I would think steam frigates, both paddle-wheel and screw would come by the mid-19th century, and ocean-going ironclads would be likely.   Monitors might be attractive as well for coastal defense, though I don't think the Bay of Biscay would be very good for a low-freeboard vessel.  

I would think as the 20th century dawns, light cruisers with 4in guns would be likely on the West Indies station, and in Home waters for scouting, armored cruisers for trade protection and predreadnought battleships as the main firepower of the fleet.  Not in great numbers, but perhaps in squadron strength.  

Five million is not a lot of population. Romania around the time of World War I had a population of 6 million.   OTOH, Asturies does not need a very large army, so the navy could be the focus.

I think there is a choice at this point:    Is Asturies' Navy closer in concept to Sweden, relying on Coast Defense ships, destroyers and torpedo boats, or is it closer in concept to the RM, which for decades has countered the MN with a smaller, faster fully-equipped fleet (battleships, cruisers, destroyers, torpedo boats, submarines, auxiliaries).  In either case, I would think there would be some token trade-protection forces, which the light and armored cruisers could undertake, but the bulk of trade protection would rely on the Pax Britannica.   I would think if the naval tradition is strong enough, Asturies might be in the latter category.  Say three capital ships, three or four armored cruisers and six or eight light or protected cruisers as major units. Getting into the dreadnought/superdreadnought game might break economy with so small a population. The Dutch Empire had a population of 47 million and despite plans, never got into the dreadnought capital ship game. Asturies might have a fertile ground (sea) for Jeune École-types, favoring destroyers, torpedo boats, fast attack craft (torpedo and gun) and submarines for local defense with a small force of cruisers for overseas stations and trade protection.  But I think some important things like natural resources, ship-building capacity, economy and defense industries need to be fleshed-out.  

I'll offer some thoughts on the 20th century later.

Regards,

  

[lordroel]

Jan 24, 2023 20:05:09 GMT 1bigrich said:

Five million is not a lot of population. Romania around the time of World War I had a population of 6 million.   OTOH, Asturies does not need a very large army, so the navy could be the focus.

Correct, the Navy and Air force are the major focus because Asturies policy is, it comes from the sea, you stop it at the sea, the Royal Asturies Army is mostly trained mobilized force which needs time to get into place and be mobilized, thus the Royal Asturies Navy and the Royal Asturies Air Force are the once that do the most fighting.

Jan 24, 2023 20:05:09 GMT 1bigrich said:

I think there is a choice at this point:    Is Asturies' Navy closer in concept to Sweden, relying on Coast Defense ships, destroyers and torpedo boats, or is it closer in concept to the RM, which for decades has countered the MN with a smaller, faster fully-equipped fleet (battleships, cruisers, destroyers, torpedo boats, submarines, auxiliaries).  

The Royaume de Asturies is a mix between the Royal Swedish Navy and the French Navy, in fact two Royaume de Asturies coastal defense ships mange to intercept and sink the German cruiser Prinz Eugen when it tried to reach Brest.

[lordroel]

In order to prevent to be mistaken for French naval ships during the 17th and 18th Century, the Kingdom of Asturies created the Asturies Naval Ensign.

[lordroel]

Jan 24, 2023 20:05:09 GMT 1bigrich said:

Jan 23, 2023 16:02:33 GMT lordroel said:

Yes, Tarrantry was my inspiration, but Asturies has a bit of Spanish, French and British mix to it.

Well Spain would be a good rival, after the French took it in 911 AD from the Kingdom of Asturias they could have tried several times to retake it, as well of course the French after Asturies  became a independent country thanks to British., in fact a French-Spanish invasion fleet was destroyed by a Anglo-Asturies fleet during the Peninsular War.

The climate of Asturies is like the mainland Asturias (Spain), so plenty of trees to go around.

Well Asturies did fight on the side of the British in Seven Years' War, so one of the islands (St. Vincent, Tobago, Dominica, and Grenada) could have been seized by Asturies.

Asturies fought alongside the British and French during both the First and Second World War.

Asturies has a population of roughly 5 million and a strong naval tradition as the navy has saved it from being invaded by Spain, France and of course the Germans.

For anyone wondering what Tarrantry is, you can get some background on Rick Robinson's Observatory site here


rocketpunk-observatory.com/tarrantry.htm

Given the proximity of the island to Gaul and Brittany (Bretagne) the island probably had a Celtic population and was likely conquered by the Romans, probably before the conquest of Britain.  It was probably abandoned by Rome at the same time Britain was, but given the later ties to Spain was probably occupied by Visigoths instead of Saxons, Angles and Jutes like Romano-Britain.  I would think the Romano-Celtic culture would be supplanted by the Visigoths.  The island of Asturies probably helped northern Spain/Asturias resist the Muslim invasion from 711-718, and likely had problems with Viking Raids, as well as having Viking settlers, in the next two centuries.   

911 AD was the year Rollo (Viking) became Christian and settled in Normandy as a vassal of Charles III.  Perhaps a similar circumstance resulted in Asturies' ruler, be he Visigoth, Romano-Celt, Norse or a combination, becoming a vassal of Charles and part of France instead of Spain?

But onto the question:

In the sail era, once independent, I would think there would be station ship in the West Indies, early on smaller frigates like 32 or 36 guns along with the usual corvettes, sloops and brigs.   At home, I would think there would be a couple squadrons of Frigates and a squadron on line-of-battleships (likely 64s early on, later 74s) perhaps lead by a couple 98 or 100 gun flagships.  In the late 18th and early 19th century, as larger frigates become popular, I would think the smaller frigates would be replaced by ships similar to the RN's Portland class (50 guns) or the USNs Consititution/President type (44 guns officially, though ported for 52)

I would think steam frigates, both paddle-wheel and screw would come by the mid-19th century, and ocean-going ironclads would be likely.   Monitors might be attractive as well for coastal defense, though I don't think the Bay of Biscay would be very good for a low-freeboard vessel.  

I would think as the 20th century dawns, light cruisers with 4in guns would be likely on the West Indies station, and in Home waters for scouting, armored cruisers for trade protection and predreadnought battleships as the main firepower of the fleet.  Not in great numbers, but perhaps in squadron strength.  

Five million is not a lot of population. Romania around the time of World War I had a population of 6 million.   OTOH, Asturies does not need a very large army, so the navy could be the focus.

I think there is a choice at this point:    Is Asturies' Navy closer in concept to Sweden, relying on Coast Defense ships, destroyers and torpedo boats, or is it closer in concept to the RM, which for decades has countered the MN with a smaller, faster fully-equipped fleet (battleships, cruisers, destroyers, torpedo boats, submarines, auxiliaries).  In either case, I would think there would be some token trade-protection forces, which the light and armored cruisers could undertake, but the bulk of trade protection would rely on the Pax Britannica.   I would think if the naval tradition is strong enough, Asturies might be in the latter category.  Say three capital ships, three or four armored cruisers and six or eight light or protected cruisers as major units. Getting into the dreadnought/superdreadnought game might break economy with so small a population. The Dutch Empire had a population of 47 million and despite plans, never got into the dreadnought capital ship game. Asturies might have a fertile ground (sea) for Jeune École-types, favoring destroyers, torpedo boats, fast attack craft (torpedo and gun) and submarines for local defense with a small force of cruisers for overseas stations and trade protection.  But I think some important things like natural resources, ship-building capacity, economy and defense industries need to be fleshed-out.  

I'll offer some thoughts on the 20th century later.

Regards,

  

Was mistaken, should have been 5 million population in 1940 and 8 million in 2022, my apologies.

[simon darkshade]

Setting aside issues of climate and larger questions, it would be difficult to avoid the orbit of France, even if it is a bit further away than Ireland from Britain.

Why? Because by its very position, it completely controls French access to the Atlantic, interdicting all the traditional western ports of La Rochelle, Bordeaux, Saint-Nazaire and Lorient, leaving only Brest, which is extremely controllable for Britain. Without these, France is extremely land locked on a side that it never was historically and her position as a great power is seriously challenged.

A British invasion in 1702 doesn't hack it, as we aren't talking about Gibraltar or Minorca level specks on the map, but a hunk of land the size of the Netherlands or Switzerland positioned right athwart France's 'sea axis of sovereignty.'

The effects are major enough in the 18th and 19th centuries, but once we hit the 20th century, the World Wars are completely changed.

[lordroel]

Jan 26, 2023 2:49:58 GMT simon darkshade said:

Setting aside issues of climate and larger questions, it would be difficult to avoid the orbit of France, even if it is a bit further away than Ireland from Britain.

Why? Because by its very position, it completely controls French access to the Atlantic, interdicting all the traditional western ports of La Rochelle, Bordeaux, Saint-Nazaire and Lorient, leaving only Brest, which is extremely controllable for Britain. Without these, France is extremely land locked on a side that it never was historically and her position as a great power is seriously challenged.

Then moving the date to the French revolution then where the Count of Asturies with the aid of the British takes control of the island and becomes its first king.

[stevep]

Jan 26, 2023 19:52:03 GMT lordroel said:

Jan 26, 2023 2:49:58 GMT simon darkshade said:

Setting aside issues of climate and larger questions, it would be difficult to avoid the orbit of France, even if it is a bit further away than Ireland from Britain.

Why? Because by its very position, it completely controls French access to the Atlantic, interdicting all the traditional western ports of La Rochelle, Bordeaux, Saint-Nazaire and Lorient, leaving only Brest, which is extremely controllable for Britain. Without these, France is extremely land locked on a side that it never was historically and her position as a great power is seriously challenged.

Then moving the date to the French revolution then where the Count of Asturies with the aid of the British takes control of the island and becomes its first king.

  Which might raise the question of the character of the nation?  In such a case would it actually be the residency of the French Bourbon claimant and a royalist stronghold.  In which case its almost certain it would reunite with France after Napoelon's final defeat.

  Possibly you could have the 1702 date or some time in that period or before if like much of the Gascony region it was Huguenot centre and possibly more so as such people fleeing persecution on the mainland made the island overwhelmingly Protestant.  This would make an Anglo-Dutch military intervention, supported by or supporting a local revolt, far more likely and also give the island state a strong sense of identity and hostility towards being ruled by Paris.

  As Simon says however this is going to make massive butterflies let alone any changes prior to this.  A sizeable and unfriendly nation state across most of France's maritime trade routes is going to seriously change much of international relations, especially when probably allied to the UK much of the time.

[1bigrich]

Jan 25, 2023 4:43:48 GMT lordroel said:

Correct, the Navy and Air force are the major focus because Asturies policy is, it comes from the sea, you stop it at the sea, the Royal Asturies Army is mostly trained mobilized force which needs time to get into place and be mobilized, thus the Royal Asturies Navy and the Royal Asturies Air Force are the once that do the most fighting.
The Royaume de Asturies is a mix between the Royal Swedish Navy and the French Navy, in fact two Royaume de Asturies coastal defense ships mange to intercept and sink the German cruiser Prinz Eugen when it tried to reach Brest.

You might consider the geography/topography of Asturies and its surrounding seas.     The Swedes used the shallows of their coast to their advantage; any ship able to operate in those shallows would be out-gunned by their coast defense ship.   Larger ships would limited lanes where they could operate and would be unable to operate along the bulk of the coastline.   In addition, while Sweden certainly had the capability to build larger capital ships, the coast defense ships would be viewed from the outside as guarantors of Sweden's neutrality and defensive in nature rather than an offensive force like larger ships.   

So when you say a combination of Sweden's and France's navies, do you  mean a 20th century navy based on cruisers for trade protection and coast defense ships to protect the home island?

Regards,

[lordroel]

Feb 1, 2023 15:56:16 GMT 1bigrich said:

So when you say a combination of Sweden's and France's navies, do you  mean a 20th century navy based on cruisers for trade protection and coast defense ships to protect the home island?

Regards,

That would be corecht.

[1bigrich]

Feb 1, 2023 15:59:54 GMT lordroel said:

That would be corecht.

You might consider what a sea-going coast defense ship might look like.   We explored some concepts in this thread

www.tapatalk.com/groups/alltheworldsbattlecruisers/chilean-bc-and-coast-defense-ships-inspired-by-for-t8706.html

started by Force H over on the BC Own Designs board.    

Alternatively, perhaps something like the Ansaldo coast defense ship design submitted to Sweden, IIRC:



One advantage of being allied with the UK and the RN, if Asturies undertakes any  modern coast defense ship construction in the 1930s, the ships could be armed with the new built-up Mk XIV 12in gun

www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_12-50_mk14.htm

And Vickers had already designed a triple turret for this weapon.

How does Asturies navy fight?    Are the coast defense ships fighting from behind minefields? (the Imperial Russian dreadnoughts have the layout they do for this reason)   Do the provide covering fire for destroyers, torpedo boats and MTBs launching torpedo attacks?   (similar in concept to the Dutch cruisers' role in the NEI)

 What about naval aviation, maritime patrol and reconnaissance?   Is there a naval air service?   If so, given the proximity to Spain and France, who is responsible for air defense over naval bases?   

what about minelayers, minesweepers, auxiliaries?

More questions than answers, but my additional thoughts....

Regards,