Denmark of 9 April 1940 ISOT to 1 February 1864.

[575]

Jul 3, 2023 8:20:35 GMT stevep said:

Jul 3, 2023 7:53:56 GMT 575 said:

USA July – August 1864

President Lincoln worked hard following the defeat of the CSA to implement his promises for the Negro's of the Southern States.
All had been emancipated from Slavery by the Gettysburg Address and with the Union Army in the Southern States this proclamation issued by him as Supreme Commander was now implemented.
Lincoln would address Congress later in the year at its gathering confirm all Freedmen had been given right of vote. The White population of the South had rejected serving to implement this and Lincoln asked Congress to counter this by Amendmend to the Constitution.
As part of the Union Army occupation of the CSA a Freedmens Bureau had been set up to allotting land in the Southern States to Blacks that had been abandoned by Plantation owners so that they as land owners would have the right to vote.
Going to Congress Lincoln also drafted a Land Allotment in the Western Territories to be parcelled out to Black War Veterans thereby giving them the right to vote when Territories became States.
Lincolns actions in the occupied Southern states was countered by mainly the Democratic Party but other groups of Whites were also against it – even the poor Whites of the South in many ways sharing the fate of the Negro's rejected the vote scheme. White peoples in the Northern States also rejected Black vote.
Lincoln would press on politically using all his oratory ability to make America accept Negro vote.

President Lincoln referring to the Monroe Doctrine warn France of pulling out its troops of Mexico; Nap III ignore the warning and General Sherman is ordered to draw up a Corps of the Union Army on the Texas – Mexico Border.
As Nap III get information of the Corps elements arriving at the border and Union Navy being quite active in the Gulf of Mexico he order the French Expedition Force in Mexico to make preparations for pulling out.
The Belgian Battalions, the Egyptian Battalion and the Austrian Brigade wasn't warned by the French of the impending pulling out.

The collapse of the CSA Army the month before had certainly given Lincolns word weigh though the French Generals observed the positions of Shermans troops in South Carolina and made their dispositions accordingly i.e. the preparations moved ahead slowly and the troops used for their intent of quelching the Mexican opposition to the new Emperor.

  One question.  When was slavery ended in the north?  Lincoln had emancipated slaves in the rebel states but there were a number in slave states that hadn't seceded, most noticeably Kentucky IIRC.  I have a feeling from a discussion on another site they were only freed by legislation in 1865 while the OTL war was in its final stages.  If the south has collapsed already then those laws haven't been changed yet.  Assuming they still will be but tying up a loose end. 

  On the French withdrawal OTL Steward was fairly restrained in their removal as he realised that they were going soon any, in large part because the opposition to the policy in France.  A surviving Lincoln, especially with a big military boost might be somewhat more aggressive on the issue.

Well yes seems Kentucky only abolished Slavery with the 13 Amendment - so I'll stick to this but it will happen earlier. (well a can of worms but I'm relying on any comments)

French withdrawal exactly the case Lincoln is more aggressive the French are just reacting in anticipation of the expected time the US will be to gather troops.

[575]

Bavaria April – August 1864

News had come from Denmark of the mental state history of the new young King Ludwig II and his younger brother Otto.
These news were unsettling to the Bavarian Government due to the need of closely follow events within Germany now that Prussian future acts had become news during February with the arrival of the Danish Minister of Foreign Affairs Herr Doktor P. Munch at the German Confederation Diet, Frankfurt a.M.

There had been much discussion already as Ludwig II succeeded to the throne upon the death of his father King Maximilian II 10 March 1864 due to the youth of the new King.
Soon however the internal discussions became louder as the news from Denmark arrived and Prince Luitpold being the younger brother of late King Maximilian II was considered as regent both to guide the young King but also to observe his mental state.
Luitpold being mainly occupied by his position with the Bavarian Army also noted the news but kept a low profile not wanting to seem to capitalize on them as they also told of his possible role in the death of Ludwig II following Ludwig's removal from the throne and death.
There was certainly consoling elements too. Luitpold had served the Kingdom and Austria in the Prussian aggression 1866 and later his Government had moved away from Bismarck's Kultur-kampf.

Bavarian Government of course asked Luitpold on his position; he felt sorry for his nephews fate but he also declared his willingness to support the Kingdom by all his means. He being a Catholic rejected associating himself with the information of Bismarck's Germany and the political changes it would have brought along.

Thus Bavarian Government decided to let the issue lie for the moment but follow the development of the state of the King.
The Bavarians didn't get off the hook as the news of the Kings reign spred into the populace making for much discussions in Newspapers and among peoples which seemed to hold some nervous outlook for the future of the Kingdom.

Also the Kings of Hanover, Saxony and Württemberg asked the Bavarian King to join in discussion upon the future of the German Confederation thus creating a forum of their own as the major states of GC and vulnerable to Prussian machinations – as indeed any GC state might be though the Kings wanted to present a common front to the rest of the Princely States.
That made the lid blow off as Ludwig II didn't show any interest what so ever in joining such talks nor of having his Governmant do so and begin secluding himself from the outside world which to him now seemed worse than ever.
Thus the German Kings asked Luitpold to substitute King Ludwig which Luitpold rejected fearing slander of preparing a takeover and left Government to make the decision.

As Government debated internally Luitpold was kept informed by the other Kings of their talks of standing shoulder to shoulder with Austria against Prussia and debating a preemptive war with Prussia to bring it down.
The dismissal of Bismarck by King William seemed to ease tensions but still the Kingdoms decided upon much belated Army Reforms and arms purchases. As clear a signal as possible to Prussia and Austria which was soon followed by the minor States along these Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg which was deemed being under the Danish umbrella.

Seeing the Princely front against him King William of Prussia pointed to his dismissal of Bismarck and the weakness of the Prussian Army following losses in Schleswig which had to be clear to everybody not least the Confederation Troops in Holstein even if both v. Roon and v. Moltke argued strongly against this outburst.
William having received news from the German Ambassador to Denmark v. Renthe-Fink was confused as to what to do now. Surely aggression towards Denmark was no way to go but the hostility he encountered from the other Princely heads of states was dangerous too. He strongly resented his Minister of War and Head of General Staff warnings as he felt he had to deter the other states from attacking Prussia.
All his dreams of 1848 had come to naught; the Germans resented him the German Princes resented him. He ordered v. Moltke to mobilize the Army in the Rhineland to defend Krupp Works from being taken over by the other states.
Von Moltke balked at this as he knew the resentment of military service there and advised only to use the troops at hand being placed on higher alert and only mobilize in the event of war. Moltke also pointed to the use of the Railways to move troops between Prussia and the Rhineland though the route most suitable was going across mainly Braunschweigh and to some extend Hanover territory and the Hanoverian King being party to the ”Royal League”.

With tension rising within the German Confederacy and the Bavarian Government angered at the lack of interest in the security matters of his Kingdom declared the young King Ludwig unfit for rule and detained him at Schloss Nymphenburg in Munich – close to the seat of Government and thus in control.
Prince Luitpold was asked to assume the position as Regent which he accepted much to the relief of the three other German Kings.

[stevep]

Jul 4, 2023 7:23:46 GMT 575 said:

Bavaria April – August 1864

News had come from Denmark of the mental state history of the new young King Ludwig II and his younger brother Otto.
These news were unsettling to the Bavarian Government due to the need of closely follow events within Germany now that Prussian future acts had become news during February with the arrival of the Danish Minister of Foreign Affairs Herr Doktor P. Munch at the German Confederation Diet, Frankfurt a.M.

There had been much discussion already as Ludwig II succeeded to the throne upon the death of his father King Maximilian II 10 March 1864 due to the youth of the new King.
Soon however the internal discussions became louder as the news from Denmark arrived and Prince Luitpold being the younger brother of late King Maximilian II was considered as regent both to guide the young King but also to observe his mental state.
Luitpold being mainly occupied by his position with the Bavarian Army also noted the news but kept a low profile not wanting to seem to capitalize on them as they also told of his possible role in the death of Ludwig II following Ludwig's removal from the throne and death.
There was certainly consoling elements too. Luitpold had served the Kingdom and Austria in the Prussian aggression 1866 and later his Government had moved away from Bismarck's Kultur-kampf.

Bavarian Government of course asked Luitpold on his position; he felt sorry for his nephews fate but he also declared his willingness to support the Kingdom by all his means. He being a Catholic rejected associating himself with the information of Bismarck's Germany and the political changes it would have brought along.

Thus Bavarian Government decided to let the issue lie for the moment but follow the development of the state of the King.
The Bavarians didn't get off the hook as the news of the Kings reign spred into the populace making for much discussions in Newspapers and among peoples which seemed to hold some nervous outlook for the future of the Kingdom.

Also the Kings of Hanover, Saxony and Württemberg asked the Bavarian King to join in discussion upon the future of the German Confederation thus creating a forum of their own as the major states of GC and vulnerable to Prussian machinations – as indeed any GC state might be though the Kings wanted to present a common front to the rest of the Princely States.
That made the lid blow off as Ludwig II didn't show any interest what so ever in joining such talks nor of having his Governmant do so and begin secluding himself from the outside world which to him now seemed worse than ever.
Thus the German Kings asked Luitpold to substitute King Ludwig which Luitpold rejected fearing slander of preparing a takeover and left Government to make the decision.

As Government debated internally Luitpold was kept informed by the other Kings of their talks of standing shoulder to shoulder with Austria against Prussia and debating a preemptive war with Prussia to bring it down.
The dismissal of Bismarck by King William seemed to ease tensions but still the Kingdoms decided upon much belated Army Reforms and arms purchases. As clear a signal as possible to Prussia and Austria which was soon followed by the minor States along these Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg which was deemed being under the Danish umbrella.

Seeing the Princely front against him King William of Prussia pointed to his dismissal of Bismarck and the weakness of the Prussian Army following losses in Schleswig which had to be clear to everybody not least the Confederation Troops in Holstein even if both v. Roon and v. Moltke argued strongly against this outburst.
William having received news from the German Ambassador to Denmark v. Renthe-Fink was confused as to what to do now. Surely aggression towards Denmark was no way to go but the hostility he encountered from the other Princely heads of states was dangerous too. He strongly resented his Minister of War and Head of General Staff warnings as he felt he had to deter the other states from attacking Prussia.
All his dreams of 1848 had come to naught; the Germans resented him the German Princes resented him. He ordered v. Moltke to mobilize the Army in the Rhineland to defend Krupp Works from being taken over by the other states.
Von Moltke balked at this as he knew the resentment of military service there and advised only to use the troops at hand being placed on higher alert and only mobilize in the event of war. Moltke also pointed to the use of the Railways to move troops between Prussia and the Rhineland though the route most suitable was going across mainly Braunschweigh and to some extend Hanover territory and the Hanoverian King being party to the ”Royal League”.

With tension rising within the German Confederacy and the Bavarian Government angered at the lack of interest in the security matters of his Kingdom declared the young King Ludwig unfit for rule and detained him at Schloss Nymphenburg in Munich – close to the seat of Government and thus in control.
Prince Luitpold was asked to assume the position as Regent which he accepted much to the relief of the three other German Kings.

  Well that's a markedly less messy solution to the Bavarian inheritance problem.  It also seems to clear Prince Luitpold of any scandal in assuming power. 

  On the wider German issue Prussia is isolated and Germany to a degree divided into three main blocs, albeit the loose western confederation of kings is more friendly to Austria than to Prussia.  Von Moltke is also aware of Prussian weakness in the Rhineland provinces where their rule is less than popular - although there might still be concerns about France here balancing that to some degree. 

  The other issue is how Germans are adapting to news of the future 'history' of Germany.  Yes it crashed and burned in WWI and then had a very rough time leading to the tyranny  of the Nazis but it became the dominant power in Europe for ~50 years and a lot of Germans did want a unified German, just as many will argue that knowing what they now know they can avoid such a future.  [Whether that's by means that would be popular with their neighbours, such as a less aggressive Germany - or more worrying such as not making the same military mistakes in WWI would depend on the people in question of course].  However I think there will be a desire in Germany for a unified state - but the question is how it comes about and how worried the neighbours would be about such a state.  As well as the current Prussian weakness Austria also has a problem in that a sizeable majority of its empire's population is non-German. 

  Its all going to be a complex situation in Germany as elsewhere and be interesting to see how you handle those issues.

[575]

Jul 4, 2023 10:06:14 GMT stevep said:

Jul 4, 2023 7:23:46 GMT 575 said:

Bavaria April – August 1864

News had come from Denmark of the mental state history of the new young King Ludwig II and his younger brother Otto.
These news were unsettling to the Bavarian Government due to the need of closely follow events within Germany now that Prussian future acts had become news during February with the arrival of the Danish Minister of Foreign Affairs Herr Doktor P. Munch at the German Confederation Diet, Frankfurt a.M.

There had been much discussion already as Ludwig II succeeded to the throne upon the death of his father King Maximilian II 10 March 1864 due to the youth of the new King.
Soon however the internal discussions became louder as the news from Denmark arrived and Prince Luitpold being the younger brother of late King Maximilian II was considered as regent both to guide the young King but also to observe his mental state.
Luitpold being mainly occupied by his position with the Bavarian Army also noted the news but kept a low profile not wanting to seem to capitalize on them as they also told of his possible role in the death of Ludwig II following Ludwig's removal from the throne and death.
There was certainly consoling elements too. Luitpold had served the Kingdom and Austria in the Prussian aggression 1866 and later his Government had moved away from Bismarck's Kultur-kampf.

Bavarian Government of course asked Luitpold on his position; he felt sorry for his nephews fate but he also declared his willingness to support the Kingdom by all his means. He being a Catholic rejected associating himself with the information of Bismarck's Germany and the political changes it would have brought along.

Thus Bavarian Government decided to let the issue lie for the moment but follow the development of the state of the King.
The Bavarians didn't get off the hook as the news of the Kings reign spred into the populace making for much discussions in Newspapers and among peoples which seemed to hold some nervous outlook for the future of the Kingdom.

Also the Kings of Hanover, Saxony and Württemberg asked the Bavarian King to join in discussion upon the future of the German Confederation thus creating a forum of their own as the major states of GC and vulnerable to Prussian machinations – as indeed any GC state might be though the Kings wanted to present a common front to the rest of the Princely States.
That made the lid blow off as Ludwig II didn't show any interest what so ever in joining such talks nor of having his Governmant do so and begin secluding himself from the outside world which to him now seemed worse than ever.
Thus the German Kings asked Luitpold to substitute King Ludwig which Luitpold rejected fearing slander of preparing a takeover and left Government to make the decision.

As Government debated internally Luitpold was kept informed by the other Kings of their talks of standing shoulder to shoulder with Austria against Prussia and debating a preemptive war with Prussia to bring it down.
The dismissal of Bismarck by King William seemed to ease tensions but still the Kingdoms decided upon much belated Army Reforms and arms purchases. As clear a signal as possible to Prussia and Austria which was soon followed by the minor States along these Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg which was deemed being under the Danish umbrella.

Seeing the Princely front against him King William of Prussia pointed to his dismissal of Bismarck and the weakness of the Prussian Army following losses in Schleswig which had to be clear to everybody not least the Confederation Troops in Holstein even if both v. Roon and v. Moltke argued strongly against this outburst.
William having received news from the German Ambassador to Denmark v. Renthe-Fink was confused as to what to do now. Surely aggression towards Denmark was no way to go but the hostility he encountered from the other Princely heads of states was dangerous too. He strongly resented his Minister of War and Head of General Staff warnings as he felt he had to deter the other states from attacking Prussia.
All his dreams of 1848 had come to naught; the Germans resented him the German Princes resented him. He ordered v. Moltke to mobilize the Army in the Rhineland to defend Krupp Works from being taken over by the other states.
Von Moltke balked at this as he knew the resentment of military service there and advised only to use the troops at hand being placed on higher alert and only mobilize in the event of war. Moltke also pointed to the use of the Railways to move troops between Prussia and the Rhineland though the route most suitable was going across mainly Braunschweigh and to some extend Hanover territory and the Hanoverian King being party to the ”Royal League”.

With tension rising within the German Confederacy and the Bavarian Government angered at the lack of interest in the security matters of his Kingdom declared the young King Ludwig unfit for rule and detained him at Schloss Nymphenburg in Munich – close to the seat of Government and thus in control.
Prince Luitpold was asked to assume the position as Regent which he accepted much to the relief of the three other German Kings.

  Well that's a markedly less messy solution to the Bavarian inheritance problem.  It also seems to clear Prince Luitpold of any scandal in assuming power. 

  On the wider German issue Prussia is isolated and Germany to a degree divided into three main blocs, albeit the loose western confederation of kings is more friendly to Austria than to Prussia.  Von Moltke is also aware of Prussian weakness in the Rhineland provinces where their rule is less than popular - although there might still be concerns about France here balancing that to some degree. 

  The other issue is how Germans are adapting to news of the future 'history' of Germany.  Yes it crashed and burned in WWI and then had a very rough time leading to the tyranny  of the Nazis but it became the dominant power in Europe for ~50 years and a lot of Germans did want a unified German, just as many will argue that knowing what they now know they can avoid such a future.  [Whether that's by means that would be popular with their neighbours, such as a less aggressive Germany - or more worrying such as not making the same military mistakes in WWI would depend on the people in question of course].  However I think there will be a desire in Germany for a unified state - but the question is how it comes about and how worried the neighbours would be about such a state.  As well as the current Prussian weakness Austria also has a problem in that a sizeable majority of its empire's population is non-German. 

  Its all going to be a complex situation in Germany as elsewhere and be interesting to see how you handle those issues.

Well yes - so far Germany is of quite some concern to me.

With Prussia in a corner and the other Kings and Princes wanting a unification though not with Prussia as leader there's a problem of how do we get rid of Austria..

Austria is another problem though without the 1866 Ausgleich and continued oppressive rule of Hungary something might spill over and the Czechs want their slice of the cake too.

France is going to withdraw from Mexico so stuff is going to happen I just haven't figured it yet.

[575]

Denmark 3 November 1940 /1 September 1864

The Greenland Survey teams were preparing to move to Denmark to type their reports.
The supply ships Gustav Holm and Hans Egede was picking up the survey teams on the West and East Coast of the huge island to carry them to Copenhagen where the Copenhagen University and Mineralogical Museum would be their winter hideout untill Spring 1941 or as they would learn spring 1865 when the next group of survey teams would be off.

Both teams had started out with the known sites not yet being developed.

The East Greenland team had found Lead and Zinc in good quantity at Mestersvig and strongly recommended the site being explored more. The Clavering Is. site which had been all the fave during 1933 because of the possibility of Gold had been a disappointment as during 1933 though there were small amounts of Gold though too sparse to mine.

The West Greenland team had been through the various sites and strongly recommended coal mining on Disko Island on the West Coast and on the Nuugsuak Peninsular to the north of it - on the north and west coast's. There did seem to be an even better site just across the stormy Vaigat Sound separating Disko Is. from Nuugsuak which even had a sheltered harbour which needed further surveying.
The various Copper sites in South Greenland were also proposed for mining and further survey.
The Coal deposits looked promising but the survey team was cautious in its assessment of the size. Being much smaller than known in Britain so shouldn't be expected to replace the annual import of 6+ mill. Ton.

Stauning asked Min of Science Ludvig Christensen to get a summary as quickly as possible prior to the upcoming elections.

[575]

September 1864/ November-December 1940

Italian Minister of Agriculture Luigi Torelli open negotiations with Denmark on buying the Nicobar Islands.

Denmark had prior to the arrival of the Denmark of 1940 been keen on getting rid of the Islands which through the times had been attempted colonized but the medical knowledge hadn't been around to make for such to succeed.
Now with a means to combat Malaria which from the screening of documents seemed to be the evil of the Islands and the soon to be produced Penicillin would make Danes able to do colonization and the Navy to establish a much needed outpost.
Some whispered about the riches of Sumatra in crude oil which hadn't been developed as of this day though the Dutch Minister to Copenhagen would have informed his Government.

As it was the Italians received a no on sale but there wouldn't have been any as the Italian Government were toppled soon after.
Denmark did however offer an export of agricultural knowledge on Pigs and Cattle as well as hygiene in handling agricultural produce.

[stevep]

Jul 5, 2023 20:06:42 GMT 575 said:

September 1864/ November-December 1940

Italian Minister of Agriculture Luigi Torelli open negotiations with Denmark on buying the Nicobar Islands.

Denmark had prior to the arrival of the Denmark of 1940 been keen on getting rid of the Islands which through the times had been attempted colonized but the medical knowledge hadn't been around to make for such to succeed.
Now with a means to combat Malaria which from the screening of documents seemed to be the evil of the Islands and the soon to be produced Penicillin would make Danes able to do colonization and the Navy to establish a much needed outpost.
Some whispered about the riches of Sumatra in crude oil which hadn't been developed as of this day though the Dutch Minister to Copenhagen would have informed his Government.

As it was the Italians received a no on sale but there wouldn't have been any as the Italian Government were toppled soon after.
Denmark did however offer an export of agricultural knowledge on Pigs and Cattle as well as hygiene in handling agricultural produce.

  With knowledge of both the causes and treatment of malaria and also other tropical disease that could make a lot of topical areas a lot more healthy, especially for non-locals which could mean an earlier and more complete colonization of Africa and pasts of Asia than OTL.  This is something that 1940's Denmark will probably have a significantly different viewpoint that the modern day Poland but how quickly would such information spread?

  Also just a thought.  With the CSA going down quickly and Denmark taking such a clear stance on the issue of slavery could that mean more pressure earlier on other locations of western slavery, such as Brazil and the Spanish colonies.  Alternatively this could also be another reason for earlier colonization as a way of suppressing both local and foreign slavery activities.

[575]

Jul 5, 2023 22:11:24 GMT stevep said:

Jul 5, 2023 20:06:42 GMT 575 said:

September 1864/ November-December 1940

Italian Minister of Agriculture Luigi Torelli open negotiations with Denmark on buying the Nicobar Islands.

Denmark had prior to the arrival of the Denmark of 1940 been keen on getting rid of the Islands which through the times had been attempted colonized but the medical knowledge hadn't been around to make for such to succeed.
Now with a means to combat Malaria which from the screening of documents seemed to be the evil of the Islands and the soon to be produced Penicillin would make Danes able to do colonization and the Navy to establish a much needed outpost.
Some whispered about the riches of Sumatra in crude oil which hadn't been developed as of this day though the Dutch Minister to Copenhagen would have informed his Government.

As it was the Italians received a no on sale but there wouldn't have been any as the Italian Government were toppled soon after.
Denmark did however offer an export of agricultural knowledge on Pigs and Cattle as well as hygiene in handling agricultural produce.

  With knowledge of both the causes and treatment of malaria and also other tropical disease that could make a lot of topical areas a lot more healthy, especially for non-locals which could mean an earlier and more complete colonization of Africa and pasts of Asia than OTL.  This is something that 1940's Denmark will probably have a significantly different viewpoint that the modern day Poland but how quickly would such information spread?

  Also just a thought.  With the CSA going down quickly and Denmark taking such a clear stance on the issue of slavery could that mean more pressure earlier on other locations of western slavery, such as Brazil and the Spanish colonies.  Alternatively this could also be another reason for earlier colonization as a way of suppressing both local and foreign slavery activities.

With the attitude towards trade I'd guess if You got the cash You'd be able to carry!

It will of course be a question of volume but as soon as demand is recognized production will be scaled to it - the Machinegun is my best example.

Re slavery - ours just abolished 1848 18 years ago. Combined with the Danish failure in the Colonial Game I don't see Denmark going on a colonial spree except in very specific cases such as securing essential resources/raw materials. OTL Thailand was close to be a Corporate EAC colony in my opinion which I really developed in the 1914 ISOT TL; thing is circumstances is different by 1940.

However having thown away the 1864 trauma by defeating the Prussians and Austrians there may be a will to "do something". I think the number of young men who joined both sides during WWII speak some of it - 6,000 the Nazi's 1,500 the Allies. That I figured into the volunteers for the Marines Regiment. With the now dimming perspective of World Financial crisis which Denmark hadn't all left by 1940 and forgetting about the 1864 defeat the interest in going abroad is very much in place. All it takes is somebody with a vision I think.

That much said I don't see some altruist movement to abolish indegious slavery in Africa or Brazillian slavery or in other Spanish colonies. (we want coffee a lot so demanding Brazil abolish slavery..)

Colonies: well Denmark wants Coal and Oil. Outside European and Colonial control is the major 1940 known coal resourses in China. Oil in Sumatra, Persia, Mesopotamia and Argentina! The Dutch will soon occupy Sumatra and the British possibly Persia and Mesopotamia - Argentina (Comodoro Rivadavia in St. Jorges Bay, Patagonia)

[575]

First International V 28 September 1864/ 5 December 1940

The News from London reported the bombing of the St. Martins Hall where the meeting was held.
Among those killed was Karl Marx and due to several bombs going off the death-toll was very high. Another Danish former Communist MP Axel Larsen who had attended the meeting.
HM Government were quite annoyed that the arrival of Denmark of 1940 had led to this incident. Well not so much the incident but carried out on British soil without HM Government's prior knowledge.
PM Stauning assured HM Government that he hadn't been able to supply any knowledge of the bombers beforehand as he was as much in the dark as they were.

In Denmark some newspapers foremost Arbejderen – Communist daily – accused PM Stauning of killing Axel Larsen in his unleashed vengeance upon the Communist Party.
Stauning to counter the accusation denied having initiated the bombing though admitted the fate of the Communist Party didn't worry him.

Far away in Siberia Army Officer Peter Kropotkin would be arrested the following year by the Imperial Secret Police and placed in a penal camp.

[stevep]

Jul 6, 2023 8:16:05 GMT 575 said:

Jul 5, 2023 22:11:24 GMT stevep said:

  With knowledge of both the causes and treatment of malaria and also other tropical disease that could make a lot of topical areas a lot more healthy, especially for non-locals which could mean an earlier and more complete colonization of Africa and pasts of Asia than OTL.  This is something that 1940's Denmark will probably have a significantly different viewpoint that the modern day Poland but how quickly would such information spread?

  Also just a thought.  With the CSA going down quickly and Denmark taking such a clear stance on the issue of slavery could that mean more pressure earlier on other locations of western slavery, such as Brazil and the Spanish colonies.  Alternatively this could also be another reason for earlier colonization as a way of suppressing both local and foreign slavery activities.

With the attitude towards trade I'd guess if You got the cash You'd be able to carry!

It will of course be a question of volume but as soon as demand is recognized production will be scaled to it - the Machinegun is my best example.

Re slavery - ours just abolished 1848 18 years ago. Combined with the Danish failure in the Colonial Game I don't see Denmark going on a colonial spree except in very specific cases such as securing essential resources/raw materials. OTL Thailand was close to be a Corporate EAC colony in my opinion which I really developed in the 1914 ISOT TL; thing is circumstances is different by 1940.

However having thown away the 1864 trauma by defeating the Prussians and Austrians there may be a will to "do something". I think the number of young men who joined both sides during WWII speak some of it - 6,000 the Nazi's 1,500 the Allies. That I figured into the volunteers for the Marines Regiment. With the now dimming perspective of World Financial crisis which Denmark hadn't all left by 1940 and forgetting about the 1864 defeat the interest in going abroad is very much in place. All it takes is somebody with a vision I think.

That much said I don't see some altruist movement to abolish indegious slavery in Africa or Brazillian slavery or in other Spanish colonies. (we want coffee a lot so demanding Brazil abolish slavery..)

Colonies: well Denmark wants Coal and Oil. Outside European and Colonial control is the major 1940 known coal resourses in China. Oil in Sumatra, Persia, Mesopotamia and Argentina! The Dutch will soon occupy Sumatra and the British possibly Persia and Mesopotamia - Argentina (Comodoro Rivadavia in St. Jorges Bay, Patagonia)

  I wasn't thinking of Danish colonization specifically, although under those circumstances as you say it might be more active.  More of general western colonization of assorted areas because they will know that it occurred OTL and also from their embassy's at least if not directly from the Danish assorted bits of information about disease control - which would make it much easier and cheaper - and also a better either where some useful sources of wealth, whether mineral, trade or whatever are.  As such and as long as they get the impression that those large colonial empires are sources of wealth and power - or simply to stop rivals getting control of them 1st - then it could motivate an earlier or even larger colonial movement. 

  The highlighted bit is important as some people were questioning this viewpoint but coupled with the desire to 'civilize' those areas and stamp out evils there are a couple of incentives for assorted nations to push for something to happen.

[575]

Jul 6, 2023 16:22:14 GMT stevep said:

Jul 6, 2023 8:16:05 GMT 575 said:

With the attitude towards trade I'd guess if You got the cash You'd be able to carry!

It will of course be a question of volume but as soon as demand is recognized production will be scaled to it - the Machinegun is my best example.

Re slavery - ours just abolished 1848 18 years ago. Combined with the Danish failure in the Colonial Game I don't see Denmark going on a colonial spree except in very specific cases such as securing essential resources/raw materials. OTL Thailand was close to be a Corporate EAC colony in my opinion which I really developed in the 1914 ISOT TL; thing is circumstances is different by 1940.

However having thown away the 1864 trauma by defeating the Prussians and Austrians there may be a will to "do something". I think the number of young men who joined both sides during WWII speak some of it - 6,000 the Nazi's 1,500 the Allies. That I figured into the volunteers for the Marines Regiment. With the now dimming perspective of World Financial crisis which Denmark hadn't all left by 1940 and forgetting about the 1864 defeat the interest in going abroad is very much in place. All it takes is somebody with a vision I think.

That much said I don't see some altruist movement to abolish indegious slavery in Africa or Brazillian slavery or in other Spanish colonies. (we want coffee a lot so demanding Brazil abolish slavery..)

Colonies: well Denmark wants Coal and Oil. Outside European and Colonial control is the major 1940 known coal resourses in China. Oil in Sumatra, Persia, Mesopotamia and Argentina! The Dutch will soon occupy Sumatra and the British possibly Persia and Mesopotamia - Argentina (Comodoro Rivadavia in St. Jorges Bay, Patagonia)

  I wasn't thinking of Danish colonization specifically, although under those circumstances as you say it might be more active.  More of general western colonization of assorted areas because they will know that it occurred OTL and also from their embassy's at least if not directly from the Danish assorted bits of information about disease control - which would make it much easier and cheaper - and also a better either where some useful sources of wealth, whether mineral, trade or whatever are.  As such and as long as they get the impression that those large colonial empires are sources of wealth and power - or simply to stop rivals getting control of them 1st - then it could motivate an earlier or even larger colonial movement. 

  The highlighted bit is important as some people were questioning this viewpoint but coupled with the desire to 'civilize' those areas and stamp out evils there are a couple of incentives for assorted nations to push for something to happen.

I know - though the various countries are going to act I guess under influence of the knowledge of some 80 years supplied by their Copenhagen Ministers.

As written Denmark will be able to supply some stuff like pharmacuticals - we always had and do have a large such industry. (some nitwit on AHcom don't understand why Denmark would be able to make Penicillin by 1941 when Germany wasn't)

We also always had a lot of well educated scientist's with free University education for all - of course paying for the living and books is on Your own means state doesn't supply such as today. Scandinavians have traditionally been allowed at no cost other foreigners must pay for education wanted.

Copenhagen Uni holds some 185,000 foreign Doctoral Thesis 1940.

We have the Royal Library, Copenhagen Uni, Aarhus Uni, 559 libraries of technical and non-fictionl works and 965 public libraries. I'd venture foreigners will be allowed looking up the books and take notes and then please put them back on the shelf - thank you. Some arrangements will of course be made if necessary.

So if the US wants to build a Panama-Nicaragua-Colombia whatever canal we can supply the pharmacuticals - just need 895,000 ton of crude oil in return.

If the British wants to build their OTL Colonial Empire we can supply the pharmacuticals - just need 6,000,000 t of coal in return.

We can supply maps - 1939 style of the World but still with a lot of blank spaces as a lot will be different on the ground and anyway making these maps work in 1864 will demand some studies in our libraries and we may not have it all. Just have a look inside but remember your notepad and pencil. Or look up the second hand bookshops - I'll venture a guess that anything on tech and education/non-fiction will be scooped up soner than later. Though the majority of books will be in Danish, second German, third French, very little in English.

Really I don't see a Danish oilproducing colony in Patagonia but the why the heck not? A couple Marines Battalions of those that OTL would have joined Frikorps Danmark and SS-Division Wiking and the security staff is taken care of!

[575]

USA Presidential nomination and election November 1864

Riding on the wave of Victory in the War President Abraham Lincoln is able to get the nomination of the Republican Party with Hannibal Hamlin running along Lincoln as vice-President.
The Democratic Party decide to abandon the ”End the War” rally for a ”No Negro Vote” rally which it deemed the sure way of defeating Lincoln and McClellan to still hold the nomination of the Democratic Party.

Lincoln mainly due to the end of the war win elections beating McClellan however he is facing difficulties internally as he could well have lost New York and Pennsylvania due to the ”No Negro Vote”.
Lincoln realize that foreign policy isn't the one to win as the effect of his slapping France in Mexico had much less impact that the outlook of all states getting swamped with Negro's running from the South now nobody is holding them back.
Lincoln however is determined to get all the Slaves in the Union freed from oppression and begin legislative work to attain it.
The French in Mexico is still dealt with having Sherman build up his Corps in Texas and the Union Navy patrolling the Mexican Gulf but little public emphasis is put upon it.

[575]

This post got fouled in the time difference of 1940 vs. 1864:

Copenhagen 24 October 1940/ 18 August 1864

PM Stauning decided to go with the Conservatives to form Government. The Social Liberals had wanted both Foreign Office AND Defence which Stauning had rejected offering just one of these crucial Ministries.
The Liberals had been impossible not realizing that the production sectors of Denmarks HAD to undergo change in this environment.
With the composition of Parliament Stauning saw no way of attaining a coalition with 2/3 majority so settled for majority and then should something pop up – well You just have to live with it.

Stauning essentially continued the National Unity Government though the Social Liberal Ministers post's would go to the Socialdemocratic Party except for Ministry of Education which the Conservatives would recieve.

The only real new minister would be Socialdemocratic H.C. Hansen – one of the new batch Stauning had been cultivating.

Socialdemocratic – Conservative Coalition

Primeminister: Thorvald Stauning, Socialdemocratic Party
Minister of Foreign Affairs: H.C. Hansen, Socialdemocratic Party
Treasurer: Vilhelm Fibiger, Conservative Party
Minister of Defence: Christmas Møller, Conservative Party
Minister of Education: Henning Hasle, Socialdemocratic Party
Minister of Justice: Vilhelm Buhl, Socialdemocratic Party
Minister of Public Works: Alsing-Andersen, Socialdemocratic Party
Minister of Trade: Ole Bjørn Kraft, Conservative Party
Minister of Agriculture: Kristen Bording, Socialdemocratic Party
Minister of Interior: Kristen Bording, Socialdemocratic Party
Minister of Church: Johannes Hansen, Socialdemocratic Party
Minister of Social Service: Svend Unmack Larsen, Socialdemocratic Party
Minister of Procurement: Johannes Kjærbøl, Socialdemocratic Party
Minister of Science: Ludvig Christensen, Socialdemocratic Party

[575]

Christiansborg Copenhagen Denmark 6 December 1940

PM's office – PM Stauning presiding Cabinet

PM Stauning: ”We are closing on the turn of the year – our year of 1940. Then what would have been 1 January 1941 will become 25 September 1864. It will be somewhat odd. Twice Christmas and twice New Years Eve within little more than 2 months. What is the public thinking Kristen?”

Min of Interior Kristen Bording: ”Well a lot of peoples are frustrated mainly families with smaller children which doesn't understand it all. There are some indication that the Youth very much look forward to having a second New Years Eve – guess the Police have to make precautions.”

Min of Justice Vilhelm Buhl: ”There are some rumblings about it. Though I will make a prohibition of fireworks at the second New Years Eve and do the regular call-up of officers for the night. It may get somewhat hairy.”

PM Stauning: ”Have You considered closing down bars?”

Min of Justice Vilhelm Buhl: ”Yes – no I won't. That might just make it worse. I expect us to handle it. In some way I think our regular New Years Eve will be the big farewell party to times we knew. I've asked Johannes to keep the Churches open that night.”

PM Stauning: ”Seems sensible – we could face an epidemic of suicides?”

Min of Church Johannes Hansen: ”Well that was my reason for going along when Vilhelm asked me. The Bishops and Priest's find it all common sense to be prepared for the worst. Though hopefully its an exaggeration.”

PM Stauning: ”I hope so. Kristen what is the state of the Nation now we are approaching the end of this year?”

Min of Interior Kristen Bording: ”We have been lucky to have lost so few lives to the hostilities just following our arrival in this time – only around a couple of hundred soldiers. The count of the fallen Prussian and Austrian troops are still adjusted as remains are found and repatriated to those nations. Luckily we have the Railway line at Rendsburg so that is the point of contact with the German Confederation Corps which I understand have been scaled down to a Brigade or something like that.”

MoDefence Christmas Møller: ”Correct, the German Confederation rather quickly scaled down its mobilized troops in Holstein as I understand General Prior. It was anyway nowhere near the size of the 1848 Confederation Corps mainly due to the smaller states not wanting to participate.”

Min of Interior Kristen Bording: ”..yes. Our unemployment is lessened despite the situation. Quite a number of the 17,000 unemployed Industrial Workers last year have found work this year with the enlargemant of the Electricity, Railway and Shipping constrution increase as well as a number of non-skilled labour for various jobs in industry and construction work in Sweden, Norway and Britain as well as in the Mining Sector in Greenland and Faeroe Is. The London Transport building of their Underground Railway is sucking up a lot. Thrige Factories, Triangel Trucks, Frichs Railway Builders, Burmeister & Wain and not least Madsen Rifle Works and Ammunitions Arsenalet is booming. I understand that at times due to lack of raw-materials the various firms have resorted to an 6 or 7 hour working day so as to keep their men and women on the premises as they are needed with their experience.. We have seen a slight increase in migration from the Countryside to Provincial Cities and Copenhagen. As Agriculture is scaling down in some sectors this is only to be expected.”

MoDefence Christmas Møller: ”I have a number of changes regarding the Army – we have the 1864 Army which is to be demobilized. This is problematic in some ways as the majority is from the Kingdom which is Us and thus they have no home any longer and no family. Though some have been looked up by their descendants of 1940 which is all well. However we have a large number of Soldiers and Officers who are without work. I want to retain the Officers on the Roster as we have had a chronic shortage for years – they need retraining but they'll get that. The NCO's and Soldiers are another matter – some want to go to the West Indies, Iceland, Faeroe Is. and Greenland which is also very well as I am expanding the Garrison in the West Indies and the 1864 troops are quite suited for the job. This should also be seen in the bigger picture – President Lincoln is quite annoyed with the French in Mexico who seem to be pulling out but things may still go awry and anyway it is slow going Rearadmiral Gottlieb inform us. Also we had some workers rebellions in the West Indies in some years time and I want to be able to counter that – yes Vilhelm it's Your resort regarding Police but the overall is Interior – right Kristen, thank you and me regarding the defence.”

PM Stauning: ”Do carry on Christmas.”

MoDefence Christmas Møller: ”Thank you PM. The Navy have been upgraded to a full Squadron and need a larger base – an enlargement at Charlotte Amalie facilities. I want to recruit for that among the Technical NCOs and Soldiers as well as a few Engineers Officers. That ought'a do it. Regarding the spoils of War.. There have been much talk and written BUT – the Grand Duchy of South Schleswig-Holstein – Saxe-Lauenburg will recieve the majority of the Prussian 25,000 Dreyse Rifles and the Rifled Prussian Artillery. I have the Army Technical Corps refine the Dreyse Rifles so they'll be as good as the French Chassepot's when these enter service in a couple of years time. The Austrian Artillery will be shipped to the West Indies – it is fine Rifles and will provide a reserve for the Navy Squadron too. The Sea Plane base have been finished. Madsen Rifle Works have contacted the Army Technical Corps regarding gunpowder – seems they can't keep up production for the US export and they haven't begun building the Armaments factory over there. I'm not willing to depart with out stock of Rifle rounds – can still be used by the Machineguns though the Army want new rifles. Madsen are still working on the Krupp 9cm Gun for the US Army. The Navy Works have the Engine plant up and running. The old OV Benz Replica 6-cylinder in-line is coming off the assembly line both as an aircraft engine but also with a Thrige gearbox for Truck use. Its a worked over update with a single cylinderblock among other things. Output is increased to some 200 hp or possibly more. Navy Works have moved into the Ford assembly plant which is quite suited for the job. Also the Bristol Mercury VIII and Armstrong Siddeley VI is coming into production.. Generally I want a decision on the North Atlantic, West Indies and Nicobar Is. It is a waste to have two different organisations running when we have raised a new Marines Regiment. Lets give the Regiment an Artillery Battalion and let any defence issue outside the Kingdom be the worry of the Navy. It will be less costly..”

PM Stauning seemed to light up.

MoDefence Christmas Møller: ”..and cut down on agencies. Recruitment for Marines and other ground units will be drawn mainly from the 1864 Army. I have a lot more but lets leave it for another day.”

[stevep]

   The comment on the date change made me think of the longer term complications it will cause for the population. Things like working out ages for schooling, voting, pensions and the like.  Plus are people going to keep their old birthdays or adjust to new ones.  Bit awkward celebrating if say it was on the 7th July - do you adjust to 7th July on the new calendar, which will not be a full year or since its 2 months and 6 days left if I read it correctly would they now celebrate the birthday on 1st May would it be?  Going to be a lot of complications for the up-timers. 

  With any 64ers who seek to settle in the 1940 area they will have a big social adjustment to make as will any foreigners who visit the country for whatever reason.