France attacked 25 October 1939

[stevep]

Feb 9, 2024 16:40:12 GMT 575 said:

Feb 9, 2024 12:06:29 GMT stevep said:

  That would be one big possible bonus for Britain.  Without the fall of western Europe and loss of so much equipment bringing also the fear of invasion there is less pressure for Britain to produce armour and other units immediately regardless of problems and hence more time to resolve problems, such as getting a better gun earlier, more reliability and possibly most of all a suitably powerful engine as that seems to have been the biggest single issue with British armour material wise anyway.  - I do remember reading that OTL William Morris, aka Lord Nuffield pushed for the use of a modified version of the WWI Liberty engine which he had a license for and proved too weak for the task.  If that could be avoided British armour would be markedly better in performance.  You would still need to get a better doctrine that that too often inherited from the cavalry regiments than many were converted from.

  Of course this reduced crisis along with a further reduction from Italy being neutral and the German air and naval threat being significantly less helps Britain and also France all around.

I'm not that much of a Tankie - I learned how to identify and destroy them.

Have seen some threads on AHcom about the Centurion engine - the RR Meteor. Though with the emphasis in Britain on aircraft resources may not be deviated from that production area. More of a problem I'd think is the main gun on British Tanks the 2 pdr. A HE round was developed but not carried as it wasn't expected for tanks to be artillery. The French 47mm Tank gun SA 35 would be a good upgrade is it will also provide the basis of a slightly larger HE round besides being able to punch through more armour. Or have the already designed 6 pdr - 57mm gun go into production which with no invasion scare may well have been put into production and Tanks redesigned to carry this.

I expect the ½ year of ongoing fighting in Belgium will have done something to Tank doctrine - more on this in the next installment.

  Well those were the two main material problems I repeatedly read about in British armour in WWII, inadequate engines and a lack of a good gun with a HE/GP shell for supporting infantry or simply hitting targets that weren't tanks - which can be rather useful if you run into an AT unit.

  The other big issue of course was doctrine with the idea that the primary/sole purpose of tanks was to fight other tanks and also a gunge ho attitude for simply charging forward towards the enemy which seems to be a hand-over from the fact that many of the tank units were motorised former cavalry regiments and some of the ideas carried over.

[stevep]

Feb 9, 2024 16:52:41 GMT 575 said:

Feb 9, 2024 12:22:47 GMT stevep said:

  Excellent.  I think Reader was possibly getting desperate to do something to earn prestige and hence influence for his service, which is supposed to have been a motivation for the Bismark sortie OTL prior to that year's big land offensive.  However the Scheer and Lutzow while basically over armed CAs pay for that with a lower speed which if faced with something like Hood, even with the poor state of its engines they would struggle to get away. 

  Those losses and damage mean that subs aside its only really Scharnhorst & Hipper that might be available for raiding at any great distance from German bases so that greatly reduces the surface threat.  Also the loss of so many DDs, especially if the one in Norway ends up being interned - or possibly having a RN force awaiting its attempts to leave, reduces the escort units available for German shipping elsewhere, which might give the British subs some opportunities although they could take some heavy losses doing so.

  Which made me think of what British subs are doing.  OTL they were deployed in situations they were poorly designed for, initially off occupied Norway in a northern summer keeping an eye out for an invasion from that region and then in the shallow waters of the Med in regions under Italian air cover in many cases.  Both of those resulted in heavy casualties but with Norway still an independent neutral and Italy having not joined the war neither of those demands are occurring.  If the bulk of the larger longer ranged subs stay in E Asia, which is where they were designed for that could make a difference if Japan was to try something. 

My main thought was without the Weserubung of occupying Denmark and Norway the next on line would be a hit on the Norwegian convoys for reasons given.

There had been a rather long period probably due to winter without the Battleship distand cover which might have been readopted without a Narvik Operation from the Allies in the cards. As such the Hood and Rodney may have been on duty as they had a lot during the period of the convoys.

I though of having the RN sink the whole outfit but it again seemed a little over the edge at least as the weather playing against the RN in the OTL situation. Though also that without such the Kriegsmarine is in a really bad situation with Graf Spee sunk, Gneisenau and Leipzig in repairs. In effect not that different from Weserubung where Admiral Hipper, Königsberg and Karlsruhe was sunk and scuttled and Lützow damaged. The difference is that more units are out of play for quite some time with both Bismarck and Tirpitz going to be delayed in completing.

You're right the British subs will be in a better position. I don't see much change here as the French are very much alive and kicking - always ready to kick some Italians.

  I definitely agree in terms of the KM's distinctly grim prospects.  Furthermore after this defeat and with the 'essential' offensive in France coming up the navy is probably going to get pushed even further down the priority list.  The circle of disaster that occurred for Britain OTL - German bases established in Norway, Italy joining the war and the collapse of France meaning immediate air and possibly invasion attacks, the loss of the French fleet and also new and even better positioned KM bases in the bay of Biscay hasn't happened here and the KM's geographical position of dire.

  My fear for the subs is that it might be decided "their doing nothing in the Far East, what can we do with them in Europe?" and hence some at least get moved and possibly some crazy ideas such as trying to repeat the WWI case of inserting subs into the Baltic. 

[575]

Feb 10, 2024 11:49:56 GMT stevep said:

Feb 9, 2024 16:52:41 GMT 575 said:

My main thought was without the Weserubung of occupying Denmark and Norway the next on line would be a hit on the Norwegian convoys for reasons given.

There had been a rather long period probably due to winter without the Battleship distand cover which might have been readopted without a Narvik Operation from the Allies in the cards. As such the Hood and Rodney may have been on duty as they had a lot during the period of the convoys.

I though of having the RN sink the whole outfit but it again seemed a little over the edge at least as the weather playing against the RN in the OTL situation. Though also that without such the Kriegsmarine is in a really bad situation with Graf Spee sunk, Gneisenau and Leipzig in repairs. In effect not that different from Weserubung where Admiral Hipper, Königsberg and Karlsruhe was sunk and scuttled and Lützow damaged. The difference is that more units are out of play for quite some time with both Bismarck and Tirpitz going to be delayed in completing.

You're right the British subs will be in a better position. I don't see much change here as the French are very much alive and kicking - always ready to kick some Italians.

  I definitely agree in terms of the KM's distinctly grim prospects.  Furthermore after this defeat and with the 'essential' offensive in France coming up the navy is probably going to get pushed even further down the priority list.  The circle of disaster that occurred for Britain OTL - German bases established in Norway, Italy joining the war and the collapse of France meaning immediate air and possibly invasion attacks, the loss of the French fleet and also new and even better positioned KM bases in the bay of Biscay hasn't happened here and the KM's geographical position of dire.

  My fear for the subs is that it might be decided "their doing nothing in the Far East, what can we do with them in Europe?" and hence some at least get moved and possibly some crazy ideas such as trying to repeat the WWI case of inserting subs into the Baltic. 

I don't know how important the British political situation is. Churchill as First Lord of the Admiralty may think in such ways certainly with his and the general European perception of the Japanese as Yellow midgets.

Locally the Danes will contrary to WWI be adverse to the RN entering the Baltic. Also the Swedes did assist the Germans post 9 April 1940 though this isn't taking place.

I'm going to post on Soviet Union and Economy which I expect to lead to more discussion on the continued war among the WAllied possibilities vis-a-vis the Soviet Union.

[575]

Stalin had been sitting tight following the Winter War; the WAllies were still adverse to his establish military bases in the Baltic States so he decided to keep from incorporating them into the Sovietunion for the time being. Also Zhukov was kept in Kiev planning and building up for the occupation of Bessarabia.

As the Germans seemed stuck in Belgium he had to think of alternatives; if the WAllies should be able to throw the Germans out of Belgium and invade Germany itself he would have to have his Armed Forces ready. Zhuhov would be given all of the West to plan for even an attack into German Poland and East Prussia – Silesia too? It had to be at least considered.

The alternative being the East – Manchuria and Korea as well as supporting the Chinese Communist Party. That had already to some degree been stepped up since the march of the CCP from Fukien to Yunnan and with the Japanese all out war on China. The road to China however were long and narrow making a bottleneck for logistics.

Hitler however preceded him – during January 1940 the German Ambassador to Moscow had asked for a meeting with Molotov. Molotov had listened to the plea for some re-negotiating of the Trade Agreement of August 1939.

The Allied outbuying the Germans in the Balkans and other areas of Europe as well as British control of Romanian oil refineries in combination with the cold Winter that froze the Danube and impeded shipments had limited Romanian export of oil to Germany in January 1940 to 10,000 ton while Britain had obtained 255,000 tons and France 106,000. The Allied blockade had served to bring shipping into Germany to almost zero. France had bought the entire reserve and production of Yugoslavian copper.

German own production of fields in Austria and Czechoslovakia amounted to only 94,000 ton a year. Germany had secured 30% of the Polish oil production in its part of Galizia which total amounted to 1,5 mill. ton a year giving Germany 450,000 ton a year. There was some fields in Germany proper that yielded some 1,1 mill. ton oil a year during 1940 and then declined.
Already Germany had used a little more than 500,000 ton of oil during the campaign in Poland. Even without a high intensity campaign running though higher than a phoney-war the German oil consumption made for dwindling reserves.

Besides home production, low import due to winter and British control from Romania and a monthly import of some 70,000 ton oil from the Sovietunion it all only made up to a rough balance each month which still would be a drain from the reserve at the outbreak of war of 2,4 mill. ton oil which post the Polish Campaign would have dropped about ½ mill. ton. Come spring with thaw on the Danube stocks might be slightly replenished every month though gearing up for a spring offensive would make for a monthly drain on reserves of some 300,000 ton which would mean Germany being without a reserve within less than 6 months.

Stalin however was reluctant to renegotiate the Trade Agreement – he knew of the British controlling virtually the Romanian oil and that they had bought all the Swedish iron ore not on a contract with Germany as the French had bought the Yugoslavian copper. The WAllies were a strong economic factor not to be underestimated. At least he wanted more out of it. More technical information more machinetools more chemicals. The Germans were good at such.
He had already notified the Embassies at London and Paris that something might be coming up. Them to be alert.

The Soviet officers detached to the Military Attache in Berlin had regular tours of the German front. The Danes had been contacted for such arrangements but had been dismissive. They had wrecked the KGB/GRU operations during the mid – 30'ies; not to be taken lightly. The British Embassy at Copenhagen was almost capsizing due to the number of various arms of services members and intelligence. They were recruiting Danes with ease for intelligence gathering in Germany – the ferries were still sailing and the land border was crossable. The British had been most instrumental during the 1930's investigations in Copenhagen in guiding the Danes in the right direction.

The Germans traded a lot with the Danes – agricultural produce but also industrial production. Those Danes knew how to ride two horses at one time. The major part of their merchantmen still crossing the North Sea without Convoy convinced neighter British nor Germans would harm them as both had an interest in them sailing – the British for the Bacon, Butter and Eggs the Germans pork and industrial produce easing the strain on their own industrial sector.

[stevep]

Feb 10, 2024 12:57:03 GMT 575 said:

Stalin had been sitting tight following the Winter War; the WAllies were still adverse to his establish military bases in the Baltic States so he decided to keep from incorporating them into the Sovietunion for the time being. Also Zhukov was kept in Kiev planning and building up for the occupation of Bessarabia.

As the Germans seemed stuck in Belgium he had to think of alternatives; if the WAllies should be able to throw the Germans out of Belgium and invade Germany itself he would have to have his Armed Forces ready. Zhuhov would be given all of the West to plan for even an attack into German Poland and East Prussia – Silesia too? It had to be at least considered.

The alternative being the East – Manchuria and Korea as well as supporting the Chinese Communist Party. That had already to some degree been stepped up since the march of the CCP from Fukien to Yunnan and with the Japanese all out war on China. The road to China however were long and narrow making a bottleneck for logistics.

Hitler however preceded him – during January 1940 the German Ambassador to Moscow had asked for a meeting with Molotov. Molotov had listened to the plea for some re-negotiating of the Trade Agreement of August 1939.

The Allied outbuying the Germans in the Balkans and other areas of Europe as well as British control of Romanian oil refineries in combination with the cold Winter that froze the Danube and impeded shipments had limited Romanian export of oil to Germany in January 1940 to 10,000 ton while Britain had obtained 255,000 tons and France 106,000. The Allied blockade had served to bring shipping into Germany to almost zero. France had bought the entire reserve and production of Yugoslavian copper.

German own production of fields in Austria and Czechoslovakia amounted to only 94,000 ton a year. Germany had secured 30% of the Polish oil production in its part of Galizia which total amounted to 1,5 mill. ton a year giving Germany 450,000 ton a year. There was some fields in Germany proper that yielded some 1,1 mill. ton oil a year during 1940 and then declined.
Already Germany had used a little more than 500,000 ton of oil during the campaign in Poland. Even without a high intensity campaign running though higher than a phoney-war the German oil consumption made for dwindling reserves.

Besides home production, low import due to winter and British control from Romania and a monthly import of some 70,000 ton oil from the Sovietunion it all only made up to a rough balance each month which still would be a drain from the reserve at the outbreak of war of 2,4 mill. ton oil which post the Polish Campaign would have dropped about ½ mill. ton. Come spring with thaw on the Danube stocks might be slightly replenished every month though gearing up for a spring offensive would make for a monthly drain on reserves of some 300,000 ton which would mean Germany being without a reserve within less than 6 months.

Stalin however was reluctant to renegotiate the Trade Agreement – he knew of the British controlling virtually the Romanian oil and that they had bought all the Swedish iron ore not on a contract with Germany as the French had bought the Yugoslavian copper. The WAllies were a strong economic factor not to be underestimated. At least he wanted more out of it. More technical information more machinetools more chemicals. The Germans were good at such.
He had already notified the Embassies at London and Paris that something might be coming up. Them to be alert.

The Soviet officers detached to the Military Attache in Berlin had regular tours of the German front. The Danes had been contacted for such arrangements but had been dismissive. They had wrecked the KGB/GRU operations during the mid – 30'ies; not to be taken lightly. The British Embassy at Copenhagen was almost capsizing due to the number of various arms of services members and intelligence. They were recruiting Danes with ease for intelligence gathering in Germany – the ferries were still sailing and the land border was crossable. The British had been most instrumental during the 1930's investigations in Copenhagen in guiding the Danes in the right direction.

The Germans traded a lot with the Danes – agricultural produce but also industrial production. Those Danes knew how to ride two horses at one time. The major part of their merchantmen still crossing the North Sea without Convoy convinced neighter British nor Germans would harm them as both had an interest in them sailing – the British for the Bacon, Butter and Eggs the Germans pork and industrial produce easing the strain on their own industrial sector.

  Ouch that's a nasty resource crunch for the Reich.  They need more supplies to increase military production and replace losses but a lot of OTL sources are denied them.  At the same time in terms of oil and  probably food if Stalin did agree he would want more in return which would cut into German industrial production.

  In terms of Soviet support for the Chinese weren't they sending more aid to the KMT than the Chinese at this point?

[575]

Feb 11, 2024 20:07:18 GMT stevep said:

Feb 10, 2024 12:57:03 GMT 575 said:

Stalin had been sitting tight following the Winter War; the WAllies were still adverse to his establish military bases in the Baltic States so he decided to keep from incorporating them into the Sovietunion for the time being. Also Zhukov was kept in Kiev planning and building up for the occupation of Bessarabia.

As the Germans seemed stuck in Belgium he had to think of alternatives; if the WAllies should be able to throw the Germans out of Belgium and invade Germany itself he would have to have his Armed Forces ready. Zhuhov would be given all of the West to plan for even an attack into German Poland and East Prussia – Silesia too? It had to be at least considered.

The alternative being the East – Manchuria and Korea as well as supporting the Chinese Communist Party. That had already to some degree been stepped up since the march of the CCP from Fukien to Yunnan and with the Japanese all out war on China. The road to China however were long and narrow making a bottleneck for logistics.

Hitler however preceded him – during January 1940 the German Ambassador to Moscow had asked for a meeting with Molotov. Molotov had listened to the plea for some re-negotiating of the Trade Agreement of August 1939.

The Allied outbuying the Germans in the Balkans and other areas of Europe as well as British control of Romanian oil refineries in combination with the cold Winter that froze the Danube and impeded shipments had limited Romanian export of oil to Germany in January 1940 to 10,000 ton while Britain had obtained 255,000 tons and France 106,000. The Allied blockade had served to bring shipping into Germany to almost zero. France had bought the entire reserve and production of Yugoslavian copper.

German own production of fields in Austria and Czechoslovakia amounted to only 94,000 ton a year. Germany had secured 30% of the Polish oil production in its part of Galizia which total amounted to 1,5 mill. ton a year giving Germany 450,000 ton a year. There was some fields in Germany proper that yielded some 1,1 mill. ton oil a year during 1940 and then declined.
Already Germany had used a little more than 500,000 ton of oil during the campaign in Poland. Even without a high intensity campaign running though higher than a phoney-war the German oil consumption made for dwindling reserves.

Besides home production, low import due to winter and British control from Romania and a monthly import of some 70,000 ton oil from the Sovietunion it all only made up to a rough balance each month which still would be a drain from the reserve at the outbreak of war of 2,4 mill. ton oil which post the Polish Campaign would have dropped about ½ mill. ton. Come spring with thaw on the Danube stocks might be slightly replenished every month though gearing up for a spring offensive would make for a monthly drain on reserves of some 300,000 ton which would mean Germany being without a reserve within less than 6 months.

Stalin however was reluctant to renegotiate the Trade Agreement – he knew of the British controlling virtually the Romanian oil and that they had bought all the Swedish iron ore not on a contract with Germany as the French had bought the Yugoslavian copper. The WAllies were a strong economic factor not to be underestimated. At least he wanted more out of it. More technical information more machinetools more chemicals. The Germans were good at such.
He had already notified the Embassies at London and Paris that something might be coming up. Them to be alert.

The Soviet officers detached to the Military Attache in Berlin had regular tours of the German front. The Danes had been contacted for such arrangements but had been dismissive. They had wrecked the KGB/GRU operations during the mid – 30'ies; not to be taken lightly. The British Embassy at Copenhagen was almost capsizing due to the number of various arms of services members and intelligence. They were recruiting Danes with ease for intelligence gathering in Germany – the ferries were still sailing and the land border was crossable. The British had been most instrumental during the 1930's investigations in Copenhagen in guiding the Danes in the right direction.

The Germans traded a lot with the Danes – agricultural produce but also industrial production. Those Danes knew how to ride two horses at one time. The major part of their merchantmen still crossing the North Sea without Convoy convinced neighter British nor Germans would harm them as both had an interest in them sailing – the British for the Bacon, Butter and Eggs the Germans pork and industrial produce easing the strain on their own industrial sector.

  Ouch that's a nasty resource crunch for the Reich.  They need more supplies to increase military production and replace losses but a lot of OTL sources are denied them.  At the same time in terms of oil and  probably food if Stalin did agree he would want more in return which would cut into German industrial production.

  In terms of Soviet support for the Chinese weren't they sending more aid to the KMT than the Chinese at this point?

The really nasty thing is that this is OTL figures! The Germans did get a renegotiation of the Trade Agreement by February 1940 but the Soviets were long in delivery. More and more its seems incredible luck that the Germans pulled it off in 1940. One source I found even went so far as to say that Hitler had really perceived the necessity of jumping off early to secure his position with a lightening stroke. I had difficulty in finding production of German sythetic oil for the period - is it included in figures or not? I judge they are but nobody is specific. However it seems to have been mainly for Aircraft fuel because the other available for the Germans was too heavy and German refining capacity too small. In that case there is no problem as the Air war is as intensive or slightly larger than OTL during Phoney War.

Did read about the CP support that was cut back at a point and given KMT - guess You are right.

[575]

Though Denmark was also important in another area – the Soviet secret services in Europe outside the Soviet Union. Since the Nazi-regime took power in Germany 1933 the Soviet rezidentura's of intelligence, communications – partly by sailors on Merchantmen, funding and the German section relocated to Copenhagen, Denmark that country had been the major Soviet base.

With ongoing access to Great Britain and France of Danish sailors communications had been upheld. Also with the new alliance of Nazi-Germany and Soviet Union Copenhagen could be reached by ship from Leningrad virtually unopposed.

True the Danish Police and Military Intelligence reinforced by the Section at the British Embassy had a sharp eye on any foreign national making Soviet personnel having a difficult time and so more work had to be done by Danish Nationals than was already the case. This included foreing nationals as the Danes had become somewhat paranoid of possible fascist infiltration and intelligence gathering though they also tried to appease the Germans.

With the War at a standstill in Belgium not even with the Germans making the gains they had wanted during the last offensive the Danes were more willing to listen to the British even if this was held in tight circles as there might be another day tomorrow.

There was also a larger group of various German, Polish and Czech communist's that had fled Germany along the Soviet units but these were of less use as the Danish Police Aliens Division had a keen eye upon such. Much easier to make use of the Norwegians and Swedes that filtered almost unopposed past though the Danes knew such easily and the Danish Communist's had informed their Soviet superiors of the lay of the land.

Even if during the years post the Nazi takeover in Germany had happened Moscow had changed course trying to appease the Socialdemocratic Parties in the West the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact had once again changed the rules of the game and the subversive game had once again intensified.
Due to reports from the Copenhagen Embassy the number of Military Intelligence officers had increased at Copenhagen.

[575]

The initial objective of the WAllies was to stop the German offensive. The 7 Allied Armoured Divisions certainly contributed to keeping the Germans in Belgium although in some places mostly so north of Sedan the French border was crossed.

The port of Antwerp had been successfully defended by the Belgian Army supported by no small part of the BEF. It had become the main supply point of BEF during the fighting in Belgium throughout Winter. The BEF had almost abandoned the defences as it seemed the Germans was about to make an encircling thrust towards the coast which had been halted by the massed counter attack by the British Armoured Corps into the German flank. That and the French mobile defence in central Belgium and Adl'A contribution to defences in the Sedan sector had kept the Germans in Belgium.

The French concept of putting their Armoured Division Infantry – Dragons Porté - into Armoured Personnel Carriers had proven successfull due to lower losses of troops and higher mobility on the battlefield able to follow the Tanks closely only reinforced the British in getting Renault to build their APCs.
Both the French and British had realized that the Armoured Divisions was in need of more infantry to make them able to hold ground on their own.

The French had also overcome their adversity to the foreign volunteers and had moved the Polish Infantry Divisions into the Sedan sector as well as transferring three Polish Fighter Squadrons to that too which had proven themselves – especially the airmen. The general command of the French language by the Polish officers served to ease relations much contrary to the initial French – British situation at the outbreak of war.

[stevep]

Feb 13, 2024 19:36:24 GMT 575 said:

The initial objective of the WAllies was to stop the German offensive. The 7 Allied Armoured Divisions certainly contributed to keeping the Germans in Belgium although in some places mostly so north of Sedan the French border was crossed.

The port of Antwerp had been successfully defended by the Belgian Army supported by no small part of the BEF. It had become the main supply point of BEF during the fighting in Belgium throughout Winter. The BEF had almost abandoned the defences as it seemed the Germans was about to make an encircling thrust towards the coast which had been halted by the massed counter attack by the British Armoured Corps into the German flank. That and the French mobile defence in central Belgium and Adl'A contribution to defences in the Sedan sector had kept the Germans in Belgium.

The French concept of putting their Armoured Division Infantry – Dragons Porté - into Armoured Personnel Carriers had proven successfull due to lower losses of troops and higher mobility on the battlefield able to follow the Tanks closely only reinforced the British in getting Renault to build their APCs.
Both the French and British had realized that the Armoured Divisions was in need of more infantry to make them able to hold ground on their own.

The French had also overcome their adversity to the foreign volunteers and had moved the Polish Infantry Divisions into the Sedan sector as well as transferring three Polish Fighter Squadrons to that too which had proven themselves – especially the airmen. The general command of the French language by the Polish officers served to ease relations much contrary to the initial French – British situation at the outbreak of war.

    That was arguably one of the biggest problems with British armour for much of the war - possibly also for the French during the relatively short period they were involved in heavy fighting OTL,

   France also has a sizeable colonial population that might supply recruits - albeit that could come with political costs in some areas and FIC could be a net drain given the threats from Japan and possibly Thailand.

 

[575]

Feb 13, 2024 22:28:31 GMT stevep said:

Feb 13, 2024 19:36:24 GMT 575 said:

The initial objective of the WAllies was to stop the German offensive. The 7 Allied Armoured Divisions certainly contributed to keeping the Germans in Belgium although in some places mostly so north of Sedan the French border was crossed.

The port of Antwerp had been successfully defended by the Belgian Army supported by no small part of the BEF. It had become the main supply point of BEF during the fighting in Belgium throughout Winter. The BEF had almost abandoned the defences as it seemed the Germans was about to make an encircling thrust towards the coast which had been halted by the massed counter attack by the British Armoured Corps into the German flank. That and the French mobile defence in central Belgium and Adl'A contribution to defences in the Sedan sector had kept the Germans in Belgium.

The French concept of putting their Armoured Division Infantry – Dragons Porté - into Armoured Personnel Carriers had proven successfull due to lower losses of troops and higher mobility on the battlefield able to follow the Tanks closely only reinforced the British in getting Renault to build their APCs.
Both the French and British had realized that the Armoured Divisions was in need of more infantry to make them able to hold ground on their own.

The French had also overcome their adversity to the foreign volunteers and had moved the Polish Infantry Divisions into the Sedan sector as well as transferring three Polish Fighter Squadrons to that too which had proven themselves – especially the airmen. The general command of the French language by the Polish officers served to ease relations much contrary to the initial French – British situation at the outbreak of war.

    That was arguably one of the biggest problems with British armour for much of the war - possibly also for the French during the relatively short period they were involved in heavy fighting OTL,

   France also has a sizeable colonial population that might supply recruits - albeit that could come with political costs in some areas and FIC could be a net drain given the threats from Japan and possibly Thailand.

 

France usually recruited a lot of Senegalese as to these the pay was very welcome and would support the family back home. Also the Free French recruited a number of Tabor's - Combat Groups of irregular Mountain Troops in Morocco, which got a very ill reputation in Italy of plunder and abuse of civilians. FIC will be an issue in itself mainly with uncle Ho being politically active; the French won't like to fuel him with combat experienced troops.

[575]

The good news from the frontlines did have more effect on French society than expected; nationalist's were waving the Tri-color at every occasion possible. Fascist's were decried as collaborators as was leftist's mainly so the Communist's who were seen as the Ally of the Enemy. Which they were.
The late Spring had been greeted by the soldiers on the frontlines though it meant the German offensive but it also meant less freezing in badly dugouts and trenches and the possibility of digging deeper such giving better protection from artillery shells.
Even if cities were more often bombarded and bombed there began to surface a will of carrying on in spite of the situation.

This was also felt in the Allied War Council where the Poles were happy they finally got their troops into the fight and the British a little less anxious about the will to carry on by their main ally.

At the end of May 1940 tank production in France had risen slightly and Renault had finally gotten their APC for the BEF into production with first units to be delivered by mid-June.

The French Aircraft industry was still a mess with too many types in production. The British urged the French to get rid of the Morane and Arsenal and carry on with the Bloch 152 and Dewoitine 520 though also keep reseaching and developing for better designs and improve on engines. The British even offered the RR Merlin for the Dewoitine which the French rejected as they wanted to retain the moteur-canon which wouldn't then be possible at least not without serious development.

[575]

The French had suffered some serious losses mainly the British pointed to by still clinging to their outdated if improved Air Strategy and urged reforms that the British would be happy to assist to.
General Georges French CinC Northwest had become more amiable to change as the system had for some time now proven itself. It had been a lesson taken 6 months to digest but it was becoming fact to the French commander.
The slow reaction to German assaults due to information being relayed by phone or runner rather than Radio had finally served to have General Georges agree to run more information by radio but mainly so during time of crisis as had been experienced. The British shook their heads but still it would be an improvement; from non-existant time of response to have one as soon as could be enciphered. Which the Allies didn't know the Germans would skip in emergencies though some reports from the latest fighting seemed to indicate such.

The tank battles that had been fought had once again displayed the supremacy of Allied tanks regarding armour and French tank guns.
The British had realized that they needed a HE round for their tanks but the main tank gun the 2 pdr. was somewhat unsuited for that even if such had been developed. However when in attack the German AT-guns had been able to take out some tanks getting time to move 75 or 88mm AA-guns forward to stop the Allied tanks. Something to take out such AT-gunners was needed.
The French SA35 47mm tank gun had a fine HE round supplied which was eyed enviously by British tank-men. As the French tankturrets were quite small usually having only to contain one (overworked) man such should fit within the larger British 3-man turret. Instead of waiting for the 6 pdr. gun being developed the guns could be supplied by the French. That needed some political considering.

[575]

The French were still buying aircraft in the US and at least had to for some time untill their home industry would be able to deliver whats needed. As the French had a procurement mission in the US these at times talked to US officers interested in gaining knowledge of the War progressing.

Small talking with the Americans these became aware of the design of the US M2 medium tank. Not really impressive but the novel use of an aircraft radialengine to power the vehicle. This of course made for a rather tall silhouette of the vehicle however the idea of putting an aircooled engine into a tank seemed overtaking what even the French would be prone to do. However the US officers relayed that the next design would feature a liquidcooled similar engine which began to make sense.

Reporting the information reached both Allied Governments; the idea of an aircraft engine in a tank did seem novel however it would cutback development time seriously. Though rebuilding a radial for liquidcooling seemed silly as both Allied nations had developed liquidcooled V-engines; the RR Merlin and the Hispano-Suiza. Somebody began to think and sketch.

With their main industrial focus being on Aircraft the British then negotiated the French – using the Hispano-Suiza 12X, superceded by the 12Y and derivatives in the Dewoitine 520, but slightly smaller than the RR Merlin which British industry had responded as a means for at new tank engine (OTL 1941) to be used for allied tanks.

The 12X had the required power output of 610-720 hp (without the supercharger 500 hp) depending on configuration in line with British industry proposal of 550-650 hp output so would need no trimming. Also the engine had been in use for quite some time thus was a proven design dating to 1932.

The Hispano-Suiza 12X at 370 kg was 100 kg lighter than the 12Y and half the weight of the RR Merlin! Thus production could be outsourced from the D 520 production to another factory not impeding either French nor British aircraft production.
Hispano-Suiza declared itself proud to be supplying the war effort with the new Allied Tank engine.

[stevep]

Feb 15, 2024 21:06:26 GMT 575 said:

The French were still buying aircraft in the US and at least had to for some time untill their home industry would be able to deliver whats needed. As the French had a procurement mission in the US these at times talked to US officers interested in gaining knowledge of the War progressing.

Small talking with the Americans these became aware of the design of the US M2 medium tank. Not really impressive but the novel use of an aircraft radialengine to power the vehicle. This of course made for a rather tall silhouette of the vehicle however the idea of putting an aircooled engine into a tank seemed overtaking what even the French would be prone to do. However the US officers relayed that the next design would feature a liquidcooled similar engine which began to make sense.

Reporting the information reached both Allied Governments; the idea of an aircraft engine in a tank did seem novel however it would cutback development time seriously. Though rebuilding a radial for liquidcooling seemed silly as both Allied nations had developed liquidcooled V-engines; the RR Merlin and the Hispano-Suiza. Somebody began to think and sketch.

With their main industrial focus being on Aircraft the British then negotiated the French – using the Hispano-Suiza 12X, superceded by the 12Y and derivatives in the Dewoitine 520, but slightly smaller than the RR Merlin which British industry had responded as a means for at new tank engine (OTL 1941) to be used for allied tanks.

The 12X had the required power output of 610-720 hp (without the supercharger 500 hp) depending on configuration in line with British industry proposal of 550-650 hp output so would need no trimming. Also the engine had been in use for quite some time thus was a proven design dating to 1932.

The Hispano-Suiza 12X at 370 kg was 100 kg lighter than the 12Y and half the weight of the RR Merlin! Thus production could be outsourced from the D 520 production to another factory not impeding either French nor British aircraft production.
Hispano-Suiza declared itself proud to be supplying the war effort with the new Allied Tank engine.

  That sounds very promising.  Getting the power that British tanks lacked OTL with also a lighter engine than something based on the Merlin as OTL could help greatly in boosting the allied military production situation.

[575]

Feb 15, 2024 23:18:11 GMT stevep said:

Feb 15, 2024 21:06:26 GMT 575 said:

The French were still buying aircraft in the US and at least had to for some time untill their home industry would be able to deliver whats needed. As the French had a procurement mission in the US these at times talked to US officers interested in gaining knowledge of the War progressing.

Small talking with the Americans these became aware of the design of the US M2 medium tank. Not really impressive but the novel use of an aircraft radialengine to power the vehicle. This of course made for a rather tall silhouette of the vehicle however the idea of putting an aircooled engine into a tank seemed overtaking what even the French would be prone to do. However the US officers relayed that the next design would feature a liquidcooled similar engine which began to make sense.

Reporting the information reached both Allied Governments; the idea of an aircraft engine in a tank did seem novel however it would cutback development time seriously. Though rebuilding a radial for liquidcooling seemed silly as both Allied nations had developed liquidcooled V-engines; the RR Merlin and the Hispano-Suiza. Somebody began to think and sketch.

With their main industrial focus being on Aircraft the British then negotiated the French – using the Hispano-Suiza 12X, superceded by the 12Y and derivatives in the Dewoitine 520, but slightly smaller than the RR Merlin which British industry had responded as a means for at new tank engine (OTL 1941) to be used for allied tanks.

The 12X had the required power output of 610-720 hp (without the supercharger 500 hp) depending on configuration in line with British industry proposal of 550-650 hp output so would need no trimming. Also the engine had been in use for quite some time thus was a proven design dating to 1932.

The Hispano-Suiza 12X at 370 kg was 100 kg lighter than the 12Y and half the weight of the RR Merlin! Thus production could be outsourced from the D 520 production to another factory not impeding either French nor British aircraft production.
Hispano-Suiza declared itself proud to be supplying the war effort with the new Allied Tank engine.

  That sounds very promising.  Getting the power that British tanks lacked OTL with also a lighter engine than something based on the Merlin as OTL could help greatly in boosting the allied military production situation.

stevep;

I was surprised to see that the proposal for the RR Meteor was early 1941. With a more active front in Western Europe there would be an incentive to get going.