France attacked 25 October 1939

[stevep]

Mar 21, 2024 19:05:48 GMT 575 said:

Besides a shuffle of Divisional Commanders following the initial German attack on 25 October 1939 and then the 10 May 1940 offensive which had claimed large numbers of British Cruiser Tanks destroyed the British Armoured Corps realized that something had to be done. That something was initially replacement vehicles with a lot of time spent on discussing by what vehicles.
The Armour units Commanders wanted the Matilda II tank even if an Infantry Tank for its ability to withstand AT-fire but the BEF command wanted Cruiser tanks for the impending Allied offensive to retake Belgian territory.
Pointing to the number of lost Cruiser's the Armour Commanders won out as the Cabinet wanted to show off victory and the Cruiser Tanks wasn't the one's to serve it such.

This of course meant delay in production switch over though then instead of stopping the current production lines one factory at a time was beefed up with additional work-force to increase output while another factory would be re-geared to producing the Matilda II.
The scheme seemed to work though the factory upgrades included room for the new Hispano-Suiza tank engine being finalized in France the so far used truck diesels were still installed.
The Cruiser Tanks thus still in production were sent off to Egypt and India to provide training units with much needed vehicles.

The Commander shuffle post 10 May 1940 weren't concluded untill July and saw Percy Hobart recalled for active duty as Commander 1 Armoured Division. Major General Roger Evans had been moved to Command of 2 Armoured Division whose Commander Frederick Hotblack had been made Commander the Armoured Corps.
Major General Richard O'Connor had been picked from his post of Commander 7 Infantry Division in Egypt to become Chief-of-Staff of the Armoured Corps much to the satisfaction of General Wawell Commander Middle East who had argued that O'Connor had shown that he knew how to direct an Armoured/Motorized Force.

Thus by August 1940 as the German Spring offensive had been defeated and the Allied Armoured Divisions rebuilt or raised; British Command rebuilt as had the French Armoured Force of 7 Divisions and 2 Brigades formed into two Corps ready to attack the German positions.
In Britain a third Armoured Division was training. To be commanded by Major General John Crocker who had served with Tank units during the Inter-War years.

The Germans of course hadn't been idle on their side of the turf; because of shortages of fuel horse transport was the order of the day and motorization reserved for such imporant units as 88mm FLAK/AT.
Because of the Turk reluctance due to their WAllied commitment the Germans had gotten the short end of the Turk Chromium export. A vital artillery building ingredient the Chromium was prioritized for 88mm FLAK/AT guns in expectance of the build up of WAllied Armoured Forces to be unleashed.

Unleashed they were during the end of August. With less motorization quite a number of 88mm had been emplaced in more or less static positions with little hope of retreat should the Allied Armour break through.
Notably the French Cavalry Corps and the British Armoured Corps both showed fine results but the hoped for breakthrough of the German lines didn't really materialize as the German defenders were able to mostly up their heavy equipment when they had to give ground and move into prepared positions to their rear.

The job of the Luftwaffe AA/AT-gunners were not only dangerous because of their lack of mobility but also because the frontlines had to hold to let the main part of defenders retreat – and somebody had to hold back the Allied Armour. The 88mm guns were the only ones really able to do so though the 75mm AA guns had also been pressed into service to fill the gaps.
And usually had to make the final sacrifice to let the 88's pull out.

Though the lines held the OKW well knew that it had been a close call – those new Allied Armoured Commanders knew their job well. Hopefully the lack of a breakthrough would lead to sacking of some of their adversaries.
The Allied commanders were allowed to keep their positions however.
Even if the breakthrough hadn't materialized the Germans had been forced back even to the outskirts of Brussels. And still the quality of Tanks wasn't what was wanted or needed to defeat the Germans. The Commanders would get another shot.

For the moment the Infantry was digging in once again with the aid of Sappers and Engineer units – an arm with importance like in the Great War to build the checker-board defences on the WAllied side that had proven its worth during the many months of fighting.

  Well that was better than I expected.  The army seems to have made some good decisions in terms of design and leaderships and better still not gotten rid of them after the limited success of the 1st allied offensive.  However the Germans must be feeling the strain a lot more both in terms of manpower/morale and also economically at home.

  Talking of economics how is the fiscal situation holding up.  OTL Britain was burning through its fiscal reserves to get the supplies it needed.  It will be somewhat better TTL as there's not the same crisis in Britain with the fall of France and the loss of so much equipment in the evacuation from Dunkirk, plus without a Med/N African theatre while convoy losses will be few.  However both Britain and France will be feeling pressure economically.

 

[575]

Mar 21, 2024 23:28:59 GMT stevep said:

Mar 21, 2024 19:05:48 GMT 575 said:

Besides a shuffle of Divisional Commanders following the initial German attack on 25 October 1939 and then the 10 May 1940 offensive which had claimed large numbers of British Cruiser Tanks destroyed the British Armoured Corps realized that something had to be done. That something was initially replacement vehicles with a lot of time spent on discussing by what vehicles.
The Armour units Commanders wanted the Matilda II tank even if an Infantry Tank for its ability to withstand AT-fire but the BEF command wanted Cruiser tanks for the impending Allied offensive to retake Belgian territory.
Pointing to the number of lost Cruiser's the Armour Commanders won out as the Cabinet wanted to show off victory and the Cruiser Tanks wasn't the one's to serve it such.

This of course meant delay in production switch over though then instead of stopping the current production lines one factory at a time was beefed up with additional work-force to increase output while another factory would be re-geared to producing the Matilda II.
The scheme seemed to work though the factory upgrades included room for the new Hispano-Suiza tank engine being finalized in France the so far used truck diesels were still installed.
The Cruiser Tanks thus still in production were sent off to Egypt and India to provide training units with much needed vehicles.

The Commander shuffle post 10 May 1940 weren't concluded untill July and saw Percy Hobart recalled for active duty as Commander 1 Armoured Division. Major General Roger Evans had been moved to Command of 2 Armoured Division whose Commander Frederick Hotblack had been made Commander the Armoured Corps.
Major General Richard O'Connor had been picked from his post of Commander 7 Infantry Division in Egypt to become Chief-of-Staff of the Armoured Corps much to the satisfaction of General Wawell Commander Middle East who had argued that O'Connor had shown that he knew how to direct an Armoured/Motorized Force.

Thus by August 1940 as the German Spring offensive had been defeated and the Allied Armoured Divisions rebuilt or raised; British Command rebuilt as had the French Armoured Force of 7 Divisions and 2 Brigades formed into two Corps ready to attack the German positions.
In Britain a third Armoured Division was training. To be commanded by Major General John Crocker who had served with Tank units during the Inter-War years.

The Germans of course hadn't been idle on their side of the turf; because of shortages of fuel horse transport was the order of the day and motorization reserved for such imporant units as 88mm FLAK/AT.
Because of the Turk reluctance due to their WAllied commitment the Germans had gotten the short end of the Turk Chromium export. A vital artillery building ingredient the Chromium was prioritized for 88mm FLAK/AT guns in expectance of the build up of WAllied Armoured Forces to be unleashed.

Unleashed they were during the end of August. With less motorization quite a number of 88mm had been emplaced in more or less static positions with little hope of retreat should the Allied Armour break through.
Notably the French Cavalry Corps and the British Armoured Corps both showed fine results but the hoped for breakthrough of the German lines didn't really materialize as the German defenders were able to mostly up their heavy equipment when they had to give ground and move into prepared positions to their rear.

The job of the Luftwaffe AA/AT-gunners were not only dangerous because of their lack of mobility but also because the frontlines had to hold to let the main part of defenders retreat – and somebody had to hold back the Allied Armour. The 88mm guns were the only ones really able to do so though the 75mm AA guns had also been pressed into service to fill the gaps.
And usually had to make the final sacrifice to let the 88's pull out.

Though the lines held the OKW well knew that it had been a close call – those new Allied Armoured Commanders knew their job well. Hopefully the lack of a breakthrough would lead to sacking of some of their adversaries.
The Allied commanders were allowed to keep their positions however.
Even if the breakthrough hadn't materialized the Germans had been forced back even to the outskirts of Brussels. And still the quality of Tanks wasn't what was wanted or needed to defeat the Germans. The Commanders would get another shot.

For the moment the Infantry was digging in once again with the aid of Sappers and Engineer units – an arm with importance like in the Great War to build the checker-board defences on the WAllied side that had proven its worth during the many months of fighting.

  Well that was better than I expected.  The army seems to have made some good decisions in terms of design and leaderships and better still not gotten rid of them after the limited success of the 1st allied offensive.  However the Germans must be feeling the strain a lot more both in terms of manpower/morale and also economically at home.

  Talking of economics how is the fiscal situation holding up.  OTL Britain was burning through its fiscal reserves to get the supplies it needed.  It will be somewhat better TTL as there's not the same crisis in Britain with the fall of France and the loss of so much equipment in the evacuation from Dunkirk, plus without a Med/N African theatre while convoy losses will be few.  However both Britain and France will be feeling pressure economically.

 

On the leadership desicions I noted that Wawell had gotten Hobart out of office and then when transferred to ME had gotten O'Connor into. Well as a Senior Commander I figured Wawell might have had the strings to pull to get "his" man into an important position in the shuffle of the Armoured Corps. Joe Crocker seemed to know Tanks and did really well in the retreat from France. The rest was inter-armour shuffle really. In the situation any positive outcome I'd think would have boded well for the future in the minds of BEF Command - and Gort seems to be knowing what to do just got run over OTL.

Oh and the Germans are burning through their pool of Trucks!

Economics - well the U-boat menace is a lot less and with Convoy's introduced much less so. The British as you point to haven't seen seen the OTL losses and having to rebuild from scratch. Also the production apparatus is working and shadow factories set up prior to outbreak of was as well as gearing Canada and Oz up is going. With France in the game along its huge Gold Hoard willing to do its part and thus entice the Americans to keep producing and selling there might be some room of economic manouevre - i.e. during the Depression the US was willing to talk loans.

The Scandinavian market is still working though Convoy is the mean to get the good across the North Sea - BUT that is very much a two way lane! The Brits still want the Swedish iron ore and whatever metalore those and the Norwegians may supply as well as Finn Petsamo Nickel that was run by Canadian and French firms; Narvik Port a British endeavor. The Brits also want Danish Bacon, Butter and Eggs and the Danes and other Scandinavians want British Coal - its to grade and the Dane's had 30 ships weekly crossing the North Sea out of Convoy carrying agricultural produce to Britain coal to Denmark. Finland isn't ITTL dependant upon Germany for its trade as Finn ships used the North Sea convoy's untill 9 April 1940 OTL as did the Baltic Nations. The Baltic Nations still isn't engulfed by the Soviets.

Add the Netherlands to the tally.

Italy is keeping well off the doorstep - it wants to buy British Coal as any sane user wants. I don't see either Hitler or Stalin add Italy to their list of oil recipients - Hitler is in too deep shit to do so.

Then there's the Balkans - Romania, Yugoslavia and Greece all buying British and French arms up to the outbreak of war. That marked haven't diminished. Guess the Romanians are buying all the hardware it can get and the Turks want their share too - ITTL its the British and the French running the show so the Turks will be less inclined to deviated their assumed position of selling chromium to the Germans in return of other items than military hardware. Which the Germans are unable to provide in much scale however OTL they sent medical supplies to the Turks in the wake of the Erzincan Earthquake on 26 November 1939 that made the Turks allow Germany buying 104,000 tons Chromium during 1940 - not sure being in the midst of battle the Germans would be able to be so humanitarian ITTL!

Belgium to get through the war was to fortunate to evacuate its Gold Hoard so also have a bargaining chip towards whoever will supply its military hardware and control still of the Congo and its produce.

One of Hitler's main objects to keep the Germans satisfied about his regime was the supply of food on the tables! Hence why Danish merchantmen would cross the North Sea out of Convoy to supply Britain but also to be able to supply Germany! Even early in the war the German troops in Denmark knew well they had landed in the land of plenty!

So even if he wants to Hitler is not able to prosecute the war in a Barbarossa tempo which will keep the lid on tin - also for the WAllies who have kept their markets.

[575]

One to the Germans unfortunate outcome of their Soviet Pact to supply them with oil and minerals was that the WAllies were able to paint a picture of Stalin being the puppeteer pulling the strings on ”Little Adoph” as one comic had it. Said comic actually had a tremendous influenze on French workers usually staunch Communist.
Even if the leaders of the Communist Party continued talking of obeying Stalin the rank and file was wavering; new laws against defaitism and saboteurs as during the Great War also had its impact during the summer of 1940 with the renewed German offensive which also happened on French soil.
The increased bombings of French cities post the burn of Antwerp helped too and French industrial production increased during Summer of 1940.
As the French was increasing recruitment in the Colonies mainly so in FNA and French West Africa/Senegal called up industrial workers were slowly siphoned back into crucial industries. Already French armaments industries had managed to keep their design staffs out of call-up and were continueing the work on the next generation of French tanks; Hispano-Suiza 12X engine 600 hp, 75mm main gun, 50mm all-round armour, radio, 4-5 man crew. Renault, Hotchkiss and Somua all having such now redesigning on the drawing boards. And all designs to out compete the PzIII and PzIV's.

The experience of some German PzIV short barrel tanks to kill Cruiser and Light tanks at almost 1000m range had puzzled the WAllies and had been looked into to get an answer how it was achieved.
The capture of an almost complete tank with a few HEAT-rounds cleared the picture to the WAllies.
The simplicity of the design of the HEAT-round made for soon production of a French 75mm HEAT-round to equip those Char B's still around to make them not only impenetreble but also deadly; tests had shown that the round was also a formidable bunker-buster.
The prospect of taking on the Siegfried line did no longer look that gloomy.

The discovery made for the British to use the in design 6pdr. AT-gun with HEAT-ammunition instead of AT; thus making the gun easier and faster to produce. Being lighter it was also possible to fit into a reworked Tank Turret.
Production of the AT-gun being continued but an older Navy gun was used as the platform for the new Tank gun; jigs already around a workshop was setup within months and the first re-gunned Matilda's and Cruiser's were in France before the turn of the year. And one nasty experience to some German tankers. Cruiser Tanks shooting back and killing Panzer's!
RN Officers getting wind of the project wanted the 6pdr. Ammunition for ships and even proposed a 14”/15” shell for Battleships with the full backing of the First Lord of the Admiralty.

French Aero-industry had been spared some of the call-up though still some had had to join up but those being siphoned back again; the bombings of cities and the late delivery of the LB-30 from the USA meant that the Breguet 482 and Bloch 162 had to get into production. Flying prototypes being well and all but there was public cries for retaliation.

Due to Luftwaffe raids some production was moved into southern France and even some into Morocco to tie up with the US Assembly point to learn some of the tricks about the Douglas DB-7 and Martin 167 (Maryland). The latter being a breach of the concentration of industry within France proper but needs necessiate.
The daily shoulder rubbing with the American engineers was well used for the French mechanics to get better understanding of possible holes in production quality control before shipment – the corrections to which was noted by the French and communicated back to maintenance units in France.

[stevep]

Mar 22, 2024 10:08:38 GMT 575 said:

Mar 21, 2024 23:28:59 GMT stevep said:

  Well that was better than I expected.  The army seems to have made some good decisions in terms of design and leaderships and better still not gotten rid of them after the limited success of the 1st allied offensive.  However the Germans must be feeling the strain a lot more both in terms of manpower/morale and also economically at home.

  Talking of economics how is the fiscal situation holding up.  OTL Britain was burning through its fiscal reserves to get the supplies it needed.  It will be somewhat better TTL as there's not the same crisis in Britain with the fall of France and the loss of so much equipment in the evacuation from Dunkirk, plus without a Med/N African theatre while convoy losses will be few.  However both Britain and France will be feeling pressure economically.

 

On the leadership desicions I noted that Wawell had gotten Hobart out of office and then when transferred to ME had gotten O'Connor into. Well as a Senior Commander I figured Wawell might have had the strings to pull to get "his" man into an important position in the shuffle of the Armoured Corps. Joe Crocker seemed to know Tanks and did really well in the retreat from France. The rest was inter-armour shuffle really. In the situation any positive outcome I'd think would have boded well for the future in the minds of BEF Command - and Gort seems to be knowing what to do just got run over OTL.

Oh and the Germans are burning through their pool of Trucks!

Economics - well the U-boat menace is a lot less and with Convoy's introduced much less so. The British as you point to haven't seen seen the OTL losses and having to rebuild from scratch. Also the production apparatus is working and shadow factories set up prior to outbreak of was as well as gearing Canada and Oz up is going. With France in the game along its huge Gold Hoard willing to do its part and thus entice the Americans to keep producing and selling there might be some room of economic manouevre - i.e. during the Depression the US was willing to talk loans.

The Scandinavian market is still working though Convoy is the mean to get the good across the North Sea - BUT that is very much a two way lane! The Brits still want the Swedish iron ore and whatever metalore those and the Norwegians may supply as well as Finn Petsamo Nickel that was run by Canadian and French firms; Narvik Port a British endeavor. The Brits also want Danish Bacon, Butter and Eggs and the Danes and other Scandinavians want British Coal - its to grade and the Dane's had 30 ships weekly crossing the North Sea out of Convoy carrying agricultural produce to Britain coal to Denmark. Finland isn't ITTL dependant upon Germany for its trade as Finn ships used the North Sea convoy's untill 9 April 1940 OTL as did the Baltic Nations. The Baltic Nations still isn't engulfed by the Soviets.

Add the Netherlands to the tally.

Italy is keeping well off the doorstep - it wants to buy British Coal as any sane user wants. I don't see either Hitler or Stalin add Italy to their list of oil recipients - Hitler is in too deep shit to do so.

Then there's the Balkans - Romania, Yugoslavia and Greece all buying British and French arms up to the outbreak of war. That marked haven't diminished. Guess the Romanians are buying all the hardware it can get and the Turks want their share too - ITTL its the British and the French running the show so the Turks will be less inclined to deviated their assumed position of selling chromium to the Germans in return of other items than military hardware. Which the Germans are unable to provide in much scale however OTL they sent medical supplies to the Turks in the wake of the Erzincan Earthquake on 26 November 1939 that made the Turks allow Germany buying 104,000 tons Chromium during 1940 - not sure being in the midst of battle the Germans would be able to be so humanitarian ITTL!

Belgium to get through the war was to fortunate to evacuate its Gold Hoard so also have a bargaining chip towards whoever will supply its military hardware and control still of the Congo and its produce.

One of Hitler's main objects to keep the Germans satisfied about his regime was the supply of food on the tables! Hence why Danish merchantmen would cross the North Sea out of Convoy to supply Britain but also to be able to supply Germany! Even early in the war the German troops in Denmark knew well they had landed in the land of plenty!

So even if he wants to Hitler is not able to prosecute the war in a Barbarossa tempo which will keep the lid on tin - also for the WAllies who have kept their markets.

  Good point.  I keep forgetting that as well as France most of the rest of Europe, in the north and the Balkans are not under direct or indirect German domination and as such are able to trade with Britain and France.  Which in many cases are better options for many foodstuffs and raw materials than the US as it needs far less convoying. 

  Good luck on the guns and butter for Hitler in this scenario.  The winter of 1939-40 was pretty nasty for Germany, especially with the underfunded railways in dire condition and here there's no loot from the conquered lands, including many railway carriages as well as food and other stuff to ease the problem as the war continues.  It could be very bad for the Poles however as the Germans are likely to screw them even harder for resources and could be using a lot of slave labour.

[575]

Lacking not only chromium but also tungsten to make effective AT-rounds the Germans pressed on with the 75mm HEAT round to be used in the 75mm FLAK as well as the 75mm Kwk.

To break the deadlock during Fall 1940 the OKW began tinkering with the newly raised Luftwaffe 7. Flieger Division and 22. Infantry Division (Airlanding) to be used for a drop behind enemy lines to break the WAllied front.

Things had begun to get somewhat strained within Germany; the Soviets still didn't meet agreed quotas on deliveries of oil and other stuff. Shortages of foodstuffs had begun showing – not in numbers but in diversity of goods. Fresh fruits especially though imports from Turkey, Italy and Spain did arrive the numbers was far from pre-War stocks.

US owned industry in Germany was lacking in production – except for GM whose German make Opel was recognized as a ”German” maker and thus fitted in with Nazi-regime ideology. That it was the biggest producer in country would be a deciding factor.
Some of those firms tried staying in business by import/export through neighbouring Neutral countries or going the long route through Siberia.
America though seemed more interested in deliveries to China which due to the local situation mainly would be through British controlled Burma or by air from FIC.

One odd result of the situation of the German car/truck industry being that Denmark once again became a main supplier of Horses to Germany. By late 1940 it was agreed that Denmark would export 20,000 horses to Germany during 1941 as other exports had stopped due to the War.
Such news was promptly being relayed from the British Embassy at Copenhagen to MI6 in Britain; British Embassy Staff regularly attending meetings of Danish Industrial and Agricultural forums with Danish speaking staff members.
More important was the Danish-German agreement for Denmark to step up production of horses as the 20,000 would only suffice to fit out four Infantry Divisions. A major part of the German Army's horses was expected to be taken from the 3,9 million horses serving Polish agriculture.

[stevep]

Mar 22, 2024 12:33:02 GMT 575 said:

One to the Germans unfortunate outcome of their Soviet Pact to supply them with oil and minerals was that the WAllies were able to paint a picture of Stalin being the puppeteer pulling the strings on ”Little Adoph” as one comic had it. Said comic actually had a tremendous influenze on French workers usually staunch Communist.
Even if the leaders of the Communist Party continued talking of obeying Stalin the rank and file was wavering; new laws against defaitism and saboteurs as during the Great War also had its impact during the summer of 1940 with the renewed German offensive which also happened on French soil.
The increased bombings of French cities post the burn of Antwerp helped too and French industrial production increased during Summer of 1940.
As the French was increasing recruitment in the Colonies mainly so in FNA and French West Africa/Senegal called up industrial workers were slowly siphoned back into crucial industries. Already French armaments industries had managed to keep their design staffs out of call-up and were continueing the work on the next generation of French tanks; Hispano-Suiza 12X engine 600 hp, 75mm main gun, 50mm all-round armour, radio, 4-5 man crew. Renault, Hotchkiss and Somua all having such now redesigning on the drawing boards. And all designs to out compete the PzIII and PzIV's.

The experience of some German PzIV short barrel tanks to kill Cruiser and Light tanks at almost 1000m range had puzzled the WAllies and had been looked into to get an answer how it was achieved.
The capture of an almost complete tank with a few HEAT-rounds cleared the picture to the WAllies.
The simplicity of the design of the HEAT-round made for soon production of a French 75mm HEAT-round to equip those Char B's still around to make them not only impenetreble but also deadly; tests had shown that the round was also a formidable bunker-buster.
The prospect of taking on the Siegfried line did no longer look that gloomy.

The discovery made for the British to use the in design 6pdr. AT-gun with HEAT-ammunition instead of AT; thus making the gun easier and faster to produce. Being lighter it was also possible to fit into a reworked Tank Turret.
Production of the AT-gun being continued but an older Navy gun was used as the platform for the new Tank gun; jigs already around a workshop was setup within months and the first re-gunned Matilda's and Cruiser's were in France before the turn of the year. And one nasty experience to some German tankers. Cruiser Tanks shooting back and killing Panzer's!
RN Officers getting wind of the project wanted the 6pdr. Ammunition for ships and even proposed a 14”/15” shell for Battleships with the full backing of the First Lord of the Admiralty.

French Aero-industry had been spared some of the call-up though still some had had to join up but those being siphoned back again; the bombings of cities and the late delivery of the LB-30 from the USA meant that the Breguet 482 and Bloch 162 had to get into production. Flying prototypes being well and all but there was public cries for retaliation.

Due to Luftwaffe raids some production was moved into southern France and even some into Morocco to tie up with the US Assembly point to learn some of the tricks about the Douglas DB-7 and Martin 167 (Maryland). The latter being a breach of the concentration of industry within France proper but needs necessiate.
The daily shoulder rubbing with the American engineers was well used for the French mechanics to get better understanding of possible holes in production quality control before shipment – the corrections to which was noted by the French and communicated back to maintenance units in France.

  Missed this earlier and some very interesting developments for French society and industry.  Could make for a stronger and more vigorous France post war, compared to the pre-war situation.

  On the idea of a battleship big gun using this I could see possibly it being useful for monitors in coastal bombardment but not sure how good it would be for actual naval combat.

[stevep]

Mar 25, 2024 10:57:04 GMT 575 said:

Lacking not only chromium but also tungsten to make effective AT-rounds the Germans pressed on with the 75mm HEAT round to be used in the 75mm FLAK as well as the 75mm Kwk.

To break the deadlock during Fall 1940 the OKW began tinkering with the newly raised Luftwaffe 7. Flieger Division and 22. Infantry Division (Airlanding) to be used for a drop behind enemy lines to break the WAllied front.

Things had begun to get somewhat strained within Germany; the Soviets still didn't meet agreed quotas on deliveries of oil and other stuff. Shortages of foodstuffs had begun showing – not in numbers but in diversity of goods. Fresh fruits especially though imports from Turkey, Italy and Spain did arrive the numbers was far from pre-War stocks.

US owned industry in Germany was lacking in production – except for GM whose German make Opel was recognized as a ”German” maker and thus fitted in with Nazi-regime ideology. That it was the biggest producer in country would be a deciding factor.
Some of those firms tried staying in business by import/export through neighbouring Neutral countries or going the long route through Siberia.
America though seemed more interested in deliveries to China which due to the local situation mainly would be through British controlled Burma or by air from FIC.

One odd result of the situation of the German car/truck industry being that Denmark once again became a main supplier of Horses to Germany. By late 1940 it was agreed that Denmark would export 20,000 horses to Germany during 1941 as other exports had stopped due to the War.
Such news was promptly being relayed from the British Embassy at Copenhagen to MI6 in Britain; British Embassy Staff regularly attending meetings of Danish Industrial and Agricultural forums with Danish speaking staff members.
More important was the Danish-German agreement for Denmark to step up production of horses as the 20,000 would only suffice to fit out four Infantry Divisions. A major part of the German Army's horses was expected to be taken from the 3,9 million horses serving Polish agriculture.

  Not sure about the Danish horses and what the allies can do about it?  Unless possibly for agricultural use Britain doesn't really have a military demand for horses as their going for a fully motorised army.  The French are probably still using a lot of horses but do they want to take on another foreign purchase to deny Germany resources?  Plus there might be the issue of getting the horses out of Denmark.

  I think a air landing behind allied lines would be a disaster for the Germans given the growing strength of allied forces, in both land and air.  Not just in numbers but also in quality and organization.  I would think it likely that such an attempt would quite possibly suffer heavy losses in making an attempt to penetrate allied lines then be cut off and destroyed.  While both transport and military a/c trying to supply the resulting pocket are likely suffer heavily as well.  Especially assuming that a certain gift from Poland is being developed in either/or France or Britain - i.e. enigma.

  Between the lack of success and heavy military losses and the growing shortages and economic problems at home I can see discontent growing.  For the moment repression is likely to mute this but also drive such feelings underground where their likely to fester.  There's also likely to be more attempts on Hitler's life and probably other leading Nazis.

  Looking good for the allies although unless something breaks suddenly - which it might but could be a low probability at this stage - there's likely to be a lot of bloody fighting ahead.

[575]

Mar 25, 2024 12:10:33 GMT stevep said:

Mar 22, 2024 12:33:02 GMT 575 said:

One to the Germans unfortunate outcome of their Soviet Pact to supply them with oil and minerals was that the WAllies were able to paint a picture of Stalin being the puppeteer pulling the strings on ”Little Adoph” as one comic had it. Said comic actually had a tremendous influenze on French workers usually staunch Communist.
Even if the leaders of the Communist Party continued talking of obeying Stalin the rank and file was wavering; new laws against defaitism and saboteurs as during the Great War also had its impact during the summer of 1940 with the renewed German offensive which also happened on French soil.
The increased bombings of French cities post the burn of Antwerp helped too and French industrial production increased during Summer of 1940.
As the French was increasing recruitment in the Colonies mainly so in FNA and French West Africa/Senegal called up industrial workers were slowly siphoned back into crucial industries. Already French armaments industries had managed to keep their design staffs out of call-up and were continueing the work on the next generation of French tanks; Hispano-Suiza 12X engine 600 hp, 75mm main gun, 50mm all-round armour, radio, 4-5 man crew. Renault, Hotchkiss and Somua all having such now redesigning on the drawing boards. And all designs to out compete the PzIII and PzIV's.

The experience of some German PzIV short barrel tanks to kill Cruiser and Light tanks at almost 1000m range had puzzled the WAllies and had been looked into to get an answer how it was achieved.
The capture of an almost complete tank with a few HEAT-rounds cleared the picture to the WAllies.
The simplicity of the design of the HEAT-round made for soon production of a French 75mm HEAT-round to equip those Char B's still around to make them not only impenetreble but also deadly; tests had shown that the round was also a formidable bunker-buster.
The prospect of taking on the Siegfried line did no longer look that gloomy.

The discovery made for the British to use the in design 6pdr. AT-gun with HEAT-ammunition instead of AT; thus making the gun easier and faster to produce. Being lighter it was also possible to fit into a reworked Tank Turret.
Production of the AT-gun being continued but an older Navy gun was used as the platform for the new Tank gun; jigs already around a workshop was setup within months and the first re-gunned Matilda's and Cruiser's were in France before the turn of the year. And one nasty experience to some German tankers. Cruiser Tanks shooting back and killing Panzer's!
RN Officers getting wind of the project wanted the 6pdr. Ammunition for ships and even proposed a 14”/15” shell for Battleships with the full backing of the First Lord of the Admiralty.

French Aero-industry had been spared some of the call-up though still some had had to join up but those being siphoned back again; the bombings of cities and the late delivery of the LB-30 from the USA meant that the Breguet 482 and Bloch 162 had to get into production. Flying prototypes being well and all but there was public cries for retaliation.

Due to Luftwaffe raids some production was moved into southern France and even some into Morocco to tie up with the US Assembly point to learn some of the tricks about the Douglas DB-7 and Martin 167 (Maryland). The latter being a breach of the concentration of industry within France proper but needs necessiate.
The daily shoulder rubbing with the American engineers was well used for the French mechanics to get better understanding of possible holes in production quality control before shipment – the corrections to which was noted by the French and communicated back to maintenance units in France.

  Missed this earlier and some very interesting developments for French society and industry.  Could make for a stronger and more vigorous France post war, compared to the pre-war situation.

  On the idea of a battleship big gun using this I could see possibly it being useful for monitors in coastal bombardment but not sure how good it would be for actual naval combat.

Actually it was meant more as a In the heath of the moment - look at the instigator!

I'm also pretty uncertain on using such.

[575]

Mar 25, 2024 12:21:06 GMT stevep said:

Mar 25, 2024 10:57:04 GMT 575 said:

Lacking not only chromium but also tungsten to make effective AT-rounds the Germans pressed on with the 75mm HEAT round to be used in the 75mm FLAK as well as the 75mm Kwk.

To break the deadlock during Fall 1940 the OKW began tinkering with the newly raised Luftwaffe 7. Flieger Division and 22. Infantry Division (Airlanding) to be used for a drop behind enemy lines to break the WAllied front.

Things had begun to get somewhat strained within Germany; the Soviets still didn't meet agreed quotas on deliveries of oil and other stuff. Shortages of foodstuffs had begun showing – not in numbers but in diversity of goods. Fresh fruits especially though imports from Turkey, Italy and Spain did arrive the numbers was far from pre-War stocks.

US owned industry in Germany was lacking in production – except for GM whose German make Opel was recognized as a ”German” maker and thus fitted in with Nazi-regime ideology. That it was the biggest producer in country would be a deciding factor.
Some of those firms tried staying in business by import/export through neighbouring Neutral countries or going the long route through Siberia.
America though seemed more interested in deliveries to China which due to the local situation mainly would be through British controlled Burma or by air from FIC.

One odd result of the situation of the German car/truck industry being that Denmark once again became a main supplier of Horses to Germany. By late 1940 it was agreed that Denmark would export 20,000 horses to Germany during 1941 as other exports had stopped due to the War.
Such news was promptly being relayed from the British Embassy at Copenhagen to MI6 in Britain; British Embassy Staff regularly attending meetings of Danish Industrial and Agricultural forums with Danish speaking staff members.
More important was the Danish-German agreement for Denmark to step up production of horses as the 20,000 would only suffice to fit out four Infantry Divisions. A major part of the German Army's horses was expected to be taken from the 3,9 million horses serving Polish agriculture.

  Not sure about the Danish horses and what the allies can do about it?  Unless possibly for agricultural use Britain doesn't really have a military demand for horses as their going for a fully motorised army.  The French are probably still using a lot of horses but do they want to take on another foreign purchase to deny Germany resources?  Plus there might be the issue of getting the horses out of Denmark.

  I think a air landing behind allied lines would be a disaster for the Germans given the growing strength of allied forces, in both land and air.  Not just in numbers but also in quality and organization.  I would think it likely that such an attempt would quite possibly suffer heavy losses in making an attempt to penetrate allied lines then be cut off and destroyed.  While both transport and military a/c trying to supply the resulting pocket are likely suffer heavily as well.  Especially assuming that a certain gift from Poland is being developed in either/or France or Britain - i.e. enigma.

  Between the lack of success and heavy military losses and the growing shortages and economic problems at home I can see discontent growing.  For the moment repression is likely to mute this but also drive such feelings underground where their likely to fester.  There's also likely to be more attempts on Hitler's life and probably other leading Nazis.

  Looking good for the allies although unless something breaks suddenly - which it might but could be a low probability at this stage - there's likely to be a lot of bloody fighting ahead.

The idea about the Danish horses is only to underscore the German problems of continued motorization. Hence word to the British Embassy.

Well the OKW have to come up with ideas to get their troops back in flow. I have some idea but my initial one don't seem to work the way I wanted. Have thought of a kind of German Market-Garden which You seems to guess; the use of Airborne haven't gotten its baptism of fire as in OTL in Scandinavia and Low Countries. Still working on this one.

German unrest - surely if food rationing take effect. Certainly somebody could go after AH himself - the POD havde changed one event too.

Rather vague I know but I'm still pondering the options.

[stevep]

Mar 25, 2024 12:34:22 GMT 575 said:

Mar 25, 2024 12:10:33 GMT stevep said:

  Missed this earlier and some very interesting developments for French society and industry.  Could make for a stronger and more vigorous France post war, compared to the pre-war situation.

  On the idea of a battleship big gun using this I could see possibly it being useful for monitors in coastal bombardment but not sure how good it would be for actual naval combat.

Actually it was meant more as a In the heath of the moment - look at the instigator!

I'm also pretty uncertain on using such.

  That's the sort of idea he would come up with.

  Mine you some shrapnel shells for heavy naval guns were developed in 1915 for the Gallipoli operation and seem to have been quite successful.  So much so some remaining ones were dragged out of storage for use in bombarding a port in N Africa.  Only to find they had rusted into a lump so they were totally ineffective.

[575]

USA

FDR chose to run for a third term and won with quite a margin despite the growing isolationism of the public – why aid the British and French they stopped the Germans themselves. Let them buy what they to procure their was and let us profit! Or as some Republicans termed it ”No US lives to fight for the Colonials – this time they do it themselves!”

The elections of the 76th Congress saw a few seats change from Democratic to Republican occupation though still the Democrats retained their majority.
Roosevelt knew though that he would need some major issue to drag America into the European War however events in the Pacific might change that if the Japanese decided to join their Anti-Comintern partners though at the time with Nazi-Germany more or less allied to the Soviet Union that might be wishfull thinking.

Germany
Due to the early offensive in the West a lot of men had been called up for service who OTL had been able to do their regular jobs.
One such was Georg Elser who had been working at a fittings factory at Heidenheim had been drafted into Logistics. That made it almost impossible for him to carry out his plan to kill Adolph Hitler at his yearly visit to Bürgerbräukeller in Munich in reverence of the victims of the failed 1923 coup attempt originating there.
Elser hadn't however lost his will to rid Germany of Hitler.

Edit: Looked up the German wiki on Elser - he wasn't working at an armaments factory. Wrong translation from German Armaturenfabrik - fittings factory.

[stevep]

Mar 28, 2024 19:20:05 GMT 575 said:

USA

FDR chose to run for a third term and won with quite a margin despite the growing isolationism of the public – why aid the British and French they stopped the Germans themselves. Let them buy what they to procure their was and let us profit! Or as some Republicans termed it ”No US lives to fight for the Colonials – this time they do it themselves!”

The elections of the 76th Congress saw a few seats change from Democratic to Republican occupation though still the Democrats retained their majority.
Roosevelt knew though that he would need some major issue to drag America into the European War however events in the Pacific might change that if the Japanese decided to join their Anti-Comintern partners though at the time with Nazi-Germany more or less allied to the Soviet Union that might be wishfull thinking.

Germany
Due to the early offensive in the West a lot of men had been called up for service who OTL had been able to do their regular jobs.
One such was Georg Elser who had been working at an armaments factory at Heidenheim who had been drafted for the Engineers troops due to his knowledge of explosives. That made it almost impossible for him to carry out his plan to kill Adolph Hitler at his yearly visit to Bürgerbräukeller in Munich in reverence of the victims of the failed 1923 coup attempt originating there.
Elser hadn't however lost his will to rid Germany of Hitler.

  In this situation I would suspect FDR would be happy with the allies handling the situation in Europe and be seeking to build up the pressure on Japan in China.  Not sure how active the western powers will be in the same aim but would expect at least as much as OTL.  Can't see the UK closing the Burma Road here and with a land line open that's going to help China a hell of a lot.  Mind you with France still fighting you could see a lot going via FIC.

  Have to see what Elser tries this time and hopefully it will be more successful.  Could have a big impact on shortening the war, especially if there's then a succession crisis.

[575]

Mar 28, 2024 20:04:24 GMT stevep said:

Mar 28, 2024 19:20:05 GMT 575 said:

USA

FDR chose to run for a third term and won with quite a margin despite the growing isolationism of the public – why aid the British and French they stopped the Germans themselves. Let them buy what they to procure their was and let us profit! Or as some Republicans termed it ”No US lives to fight for the Colonials – this time they do it themselves!”

The elections of the 76th Congress saw a few seats change from Democratic to Republican occupation though still the Democrats retained their majority.
Roosevelt knew though that he would need some major issue to drag America into the European War however events in the Pacific might change that if the Japanese decided to join their Anti-Comintern partners though at the time with Nazi-Germany more or less allied to the Soviet Union that might be wishfull thinking.

Germany
Due to the early offensive in the West a lot of men had been called up for service who OTL had been able to do their regular jobs.
One such was Georg Elser who had been working at an armaments factory at Heidenheim who had been drafted for the Engineers troops due to his knowledge of explosives. That made it almost impossible for him to carry out his plan to kill Adolph Hitler at his yearly visit to Bürgerbräukeller in Munich in reverence of the victims of the failed 1923 coup attempt originating there.
Elser hadn't however lost his will to rid Germany of Hitler.

  In this situation I would suspect FDR would be happy with the allies handling the situation in Europe and be seeking to build up the pressure on Japan in China.  Not sure how active the western powers will be in the same aim but would expect at least as much as OTL.  Can't see the UK closing the Burma Road here and with a land line open that's going to help China a hell of a lot.  Mind you with France still fighting you could see a lot going via FIC.

  Have to see what Elser tries this time and hopefully it will be more successful.  Could have a big impact on shortening the war, especially if there's then a succession crisis.

Well the odd thing is that while Britain and France see the Soviet Union as an ally of Nazi-Germany they and the Soviets will aid China against the Japanese. At least the British won't ITTL close down the Burma Road and a very much alive and kicking France fighting the Germans won't be about to limit aid for China coming in through FIC.

NEI is of course a joker in this as the British and French isn't going to push the Dutch around too much; the Germans are not roaming freely in the Netherlands ITTL and also have an interest in keeping the Dutch afloat. BTW the OTL oil embargo by the US was only advanced following Japanese bullying Vichy France July 1941 on August 1, 1941. Think there was some soft spot for the French (old Republican ally and all that)

Elser - still wanting to do his part. Haven't drawn that up yet - don't know if anything else might show. You know when digging into history.. (no I haven't found or decided yet)

[stevep]

Mar 28, 2024 22:49:33 GMT 575 said:

Mar 28, 2024 20:04:24 GMT stevep said:

  In this situation I would suspect FDR would be happy with the allies handling the situation in Europe and be seeking to build up the pressure on Japan in China.  Not sure how active the western powers will be in the same aim but would expect at least as much as OTL.  Can't see the UK closing the Burma Road here and with a land line open that's going to help China a hell of a lot.  Mind you with France still fighting you could see a lot going via FIC.

  Have to see what Elser tries this time and hopefully it will be more successful.  Could have a big impact on shortening the war, especially if there's then a succession crisis.

Well the odd thing is that while Britain and France see the Soviet Union as an ally of Nazi-Germany they and the Soviets will aid China against the Japanese. At least the British won't ITTL close down the Burma Road and a very much alive and kicking France fighting the Germans won't be about to limit aid for China coming in through FIC.

NEI is of course a joker in this as the British and French isn't going to push the Dutch around too much; the Germans are not roaming freely in the Netherlands ITTL and also have an interest in keeping the Dutch afloat. BTW the OTL oil embargo by the US was only advanced following Japanese bullying Vichy France July 1941 on August 1, 1941. Think there was some soft spot for the French (old Republican ally and all that)

Elser - still wanting to do his part. Haven't drawn that up yet - don't know if anything else might show. You know when digging into history.. (no I haven't found or decided yet)

  True but as I understand it the primary concerns were China and also the fact that the Japanese move posed a major threat to the allies, since it made it easier for Japan to attack the British and Dutch possessions.  The latter is less of an issue here plus there's the complication for Japan that attacking the neutral Netherlands would not only threaten the western powers but possibly also upset the Germans, although in their current state and with the German reliance on the USSR that may be less of an issue for Tokyo.

[575]

British and French Armour development
The A9 Cruiser Tank had been underarmoured but around in sufficient numbers it had mainly outfitted the 2. Armoured Division in France and Belgium upon arrival during January 1940.
The 1. Armoured Division had made do with its Cruiser A10 which was well armoured and the A13 which was not so well armoured.
The 1. Tank Brigade had its A11 and A12 Heavy Tanks; the A12 Matilda Mk. II really having scared the German Tank crews and infantry and seemed oblivious to anything but a strait hit by an 88mm AT-shell.

The Matilda Mk. II (A12) had been decided to remain in production awaiting the Hispano-Suiza engine the French were working on and when possible upgunned with the French 47mm SA35 gun.
The A11s were pulled out of the line for training purposes.
1. Tank Brigade would be resupplied with A13 Cruiser Tanks instead of the A11 to reequip its Regiments. These A13 Cruiser Tanks was an up-armoured model called Covenanter still with a 2pdr. Gun but better armour of 40mm.

The 1. and 2. Armoured Divisions would be reequipped with A10 and Covenanter Cruiser Tanks though the A10 as the A9 already being on their way out of production to make for the Valentine that had barely entered production and the A15 Crusader that also had just gone into production. Both the Valentine and the Crusader would be equipped with the French SA35 gun.

As such the British Armoured Corps was equipped by the German attack during May 1940.
With the better guns and more armour the British Armoured Corps did better than during October 1939 now needing to develop tactics and await new vehicles.

Following the Allied offensive during August 1940 the Armoured Corps units once again was issued new armoured vehicles.
This time the new heavy Matilda Mk. IIB with the Hispano-Suiza 12X engine having more than double the power of the previous Mk. II was met with high expectations. With the SA35 47mm gun now standard issue along the British 6pdr. the 1. Tank Brigade looked forward to the blooding of their new vehicles.

The Covenanter Cruiser Tank had done quite well though some crews had reported issues of overheating the engine however this wasn't seen as a general issue.
The Valentine Tanks had also done well though the crews found them rather cramped though their low silhuette made them difficult targets for German AT-gunners. The two man turret was also a drawback on the Commander and the tank was seen as a intermediate vehicle pending the arrival of the upgunned Crusader and Matilda Mk. III. BEF Command had realized the latter to be the ultimate choice of vehicle with the new H-S engine and SA35 gun and possibly a 75mm gun.

Looking to the French a new Tank study had been drawn up for a 30 to 35 ton vehicle with a 47mm or 75mm gun in the usual 3-man turret and 60mm armour. The H-S engine would deliver the needed power. Tests carried out on Char B1 and Somua S35 with the engine had yielded a 5-10 mph increase in speed but crucially doubling or more the output made those tanks much more mobile in terrain.
The British had taken this into consideration and expected the Matilda IIB with the H-S engine added 300 hp and much increased torque due to the gearbox developed by Hispano-Suiza for use in tanks to become a quite versatile vehicle erasing the categorization of tanks as Cruiser or Infantry.

The French had also seen development of their Armoured troops; the 1939 design studies of a Char B size Tank with a 75mm main gun and 60mm armour was about to go into production by Renault, Soumua and Hotchkiss with the H-S engine as power-plant.
There was some difference's but ultimately it was rather similar vehicles due to Army demand's. Finally the one-man turret had been abandoned and the British turret adopted as the British had also delivered the blueprints for the forging of the turret-ring.

By the end of 1940 Vickers engineers was sent on a study to France at Renault, Somua and Hotchkiss to familiarize themselves with the new French designs mainly so the 75mm guns to prepare the design of the Matilda III Tank with just such armament. The future seemed to belong to larger, faster Tanks.