The League of Nations

[eagle]

  So, one of the things that I am doing with my world is dealing with the way that certain things can affect the social fabric of a civilisation.  Towards that end, I am wanting to make sure that I have a nice clean League of Nations, an international diplomacy organisation with the power to force nations to the negotiation table, but little beyond that.  So I was wondering if anyone else is familiar with a timeline that has this as a feature?

Eagle
(I will have odd questions)

[lordroel]

Feb 24, 2016 18:54:36 GMT eagle said:

  So, one of the things that I am doing with my world is dealing with the way that certain things can affect the social fabric of a civilisation.  Towards that end, I am wanting to make sure that I have a nice clean League of Nations, an international diplomacy organisation with the power to force nations to the negotiation table, but little beyond that.  So I was wondering if anyone else is familiar with a timeline that has this as a feature?

Eagle
(I will have odd questions)

Welcome on board eagle.

No problem with asking a question, i do not now of any timeline that has a strong League of Nations if that is what you mean, the League of Nations was never that strong in my view to force nations to the negotiation table.

[eagle]

One of the things about my timeline is I like it and the background information to all be worked out. I want things to be familiar, yet different, as my world is built on the idea that time is a river. That there may be multiple points of diversion, but in the end the general course will be the same.

Evolution has niches. If something dies out that is filling one of those niches, something else will replace it as it goes through rapid mutation to better fit. For my world, Time works the same way.

So I am working on putting the League of Nations in as an unbroken organisation stretching back to the founding in 1920. The only problem there comes in during the lead up to WW II when the axis powers basically tell the LN to go fly a kite. I'm doing the research, but want something that legitimately allows the LN to go forward instead of dying.

Eagle
(Not easy, I know)

[lordroel]

Feb 25, 2016 1:45:46 GMT eagle said:

One of the things about my timeline is I like it and the background information to all be worked out. I want things to be familiar, yet different, as my world is built on the idea that time is a river. That there may be multiple points of diversion, but in the end the general course will be the same.

Evolution has niches. If something dies out that is filling one of those niches, something else will replace it as it goes through rapid mutation to better fit. For my world, Time works the same way.

So I am working on putting the League of Nations in as an unbroken organisation stretching back to the founding in 1920. The only problem there comes in during the lead up to WW II when the axis powers basically tell the LN to go fly a kite. I'm doing the research, but want something that legitimately allows the LN to go forward instead of dying.

Eagle
(Not easy, I know)

Well it would work if the LN had a big successes in its early days that shows its members that the LN can do something instead of being a lame duck organization.

[eagle]

Here's the thought I am currently having. It's the eve of WW II. 1939 or so. One of the best known specials (superheroes) in the world walks into the general meeting of the LN just after the axis powers have pulled out, renounces his German citizenship, and declares that he is going to support the LN. A few other specials follow suit, and the LN has Peacekeepers in the form of a few powered individuals for use in some situations. There are still a few holes in it, but I think that might be a good tipping point.

Eagle
(And another way of showing how powers change a world)

[lordroel]

Feb 25, 2016 4:55:25 GMT eagle said:

Here's the thought I am currently having. It's the eve of WW II. 1939 or so. One of the best known specials (superheroes) in the world walks into the general meeting of the LN just after the axis powers have pulled out, renounces his German citizenship, and declares that he is going to support the LN. A few other specials follow suit, and the LN has Peacekeepers in the form of a few powered individuals for use in some situations. There are still a few holes in it, but I think that might be a good tipping point.

Eagle
(And another way of showing how powers change a world)

You mean a here hero who renounce his German citizenship (he hates Germany for what it has become) and instead become a citizen of the of earth with the LN being the thing he stands fore, nice idea.

[eagle]

Right...He doesn't have superman level powers, but between him, and the others who join, they have the power to sway situations, and bring people to the table for diplomacy. Is it enough to keep the LN from becoming the UN? I think so.

Eagle
(Spitballing here)

[lordroel]

Feb 25, 2016 5:36:29 GMT eagle said:

Right...He doesn't have superman level powers, but between him, and the others who join, they have the power to sway situations, and bring people to the table for diplomacy. Is it enough to keep the LN from becoming the UN? I think so.

Eagle
(Spitballing here)

Well that is a good thing otherwise i had to move the thread to the ASB category, so you are saying that a Secretary‑General who has the abalaty to do the things the LN of OTL never could, that would work, but the USA has also to be a member or the LN will not have most of the big powers as a member.

[eagle]

One of the things that the LN has over the UN is that it never had armed services. At least from my point of view, but as El Duce pointed out, without the armed forces, their bark had no bite. That was the main reason the LN failed, and was replaced by the UN. So what I was looking for was something that enabled the LN to survive.

And yeah, I had not intended on an ASB solution when I posted this, but it kinda turned into that.

Eagle
(Pesky flapping things)

[lordroel]

Feb 25, 2016 16:28:28 GMT eagle said:

One of the things that the LN has over the UN is that it never had armed services. At least from my point of view, but as El Duce pointed out, without the armed forces, their bark had no bite. That was the main reason the LN failed, and was replaced by the UN. So what I was looking for was something that enabled the LN to survive.

And yeah, I had not intended on an ASB solution when I posted this, but it kinda turned into that.

Eagle
(Pesky flapping things)

If the second Secretary‑General (who was a Frenchmen) was not so open pro-french (it was claimed that he used the League as an extension of the French Foreign Office) but a different Secretary‑General, one more neutral and able to do his job, the LN might be stronger when World War II began in 1939.

[eagle]

Feb 25, 2016 16:37:23 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 25, 2016 16:28:28 GMT eagle said:

One of the things that the LN has over the UN is that it never had armed services. At least from my point of view, but as El Duce pointed out, without the armed forces, their bark had no bite. That was the main reason the LN failed, and was replaced by the UN. So what I was looking for was something that enabled the LN to survive.

And yeah, I had not intended on an ASB solution when I posted this, but it kinda turned into that.

Eagle
(Pesky flapping things)

If the second Secretary‑General (who was a Frenchmen) was not so open pro-french (it was claimed that he used the League as an extension of the French Foreign Office) but a different Secretary‑General, one more neutral and able to do his job, the LN might be stronger when World War II began in 1939.

The main thrust of my research has been showing that it had become very franco-centric, therefor something has to happen to pull it away from that.  My thought here is having the USA join instead of holding out.  This would require a compromise between Wilson and Lodge, so that's more research to do.  It seems that I have to do 5 minutes of research for every word that makes it into the timeline proper.

Eagle
(Always more to read)

[lordroel]

Feb 25, 2016 21:46:53 GMT eagle said:

Feb 25, 2016 16:37:23 GMT lordroel said:

If the second Secretary‑General (who was a Frenchmen) was not so open pro-french (it was claimed that he used the League as an extension of the French Foreign Office) but a different Secretary‑General, one more neutral and able to do his job, the LN might be stronger when World War II began in 1939.

The main thrust of my research has been showing that it had become very franco-centric, therefor something has to happen to pull it away from that.  My thought here is having the USA join instead of holding out.  This would require a compromise between Wilson and Lodge, so that's more research to do.  It seems that I have to do 5 minutes of research for every word that makes it into the timeline proper.

Eagle
(Always more to read)

While i agree that the United States should join, unless the LN goes of good from the start it will when it maters in the 1930s not be not strong enough to do anything as it will have two Secretary‑Generals (first a British and then a Frenchmen) who look more to their country than to the LN interest, the last Secretary‑General who was a Irishmen had a hollow organization who could not do anything thanks to the last Secretary‑General firing almost 600 of the 700 personal

[eagle]

Feb 26, 2016 9:41:19 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 25, 2016 21:46:53 GMT eagle said:

The main thrust of my research has been showing that it had become very franco-centric, therefor something has to happen to pull it away from that.  My thought here is having the USA join instead of holding out.  This would require a compromise between Wilson and Lodge, so that's more research to do.  It seems that I have to do 5 minutes of research for every word that makes it into the timeline proper.

Eagle
(Always more to read)

While i agree that the United States should join, unless the LN goes of good from the start it will when it maters in the 1930s not be not strong enough to do anything as it will have two Secretary‑Generals (first a British and then a Frenchmen) who look more to their country than to the LN interest, the last Secretary‑General who was a Irishmen had a hollow organization who could not do anything thanks to the last Secretary‑General firing almost 600 of the 700 personal

Ok, so here's what I have figured out.  The main bone of contention with getting the US into the LN was a little piece of the Covenant called Article X.  So for NO-Earth, Wilson is going to go back and have the LN drop Article X so that he can get past the Senate Ratification process.  That was the only real obstacle.  This allows us to wind up with at least one American SG, or if not, then one more appealing to the Americans.  Wilson, meanwhile, along with some of the other Architects of the LN have decided that if there will be no armed assistance (which is what Article X was about) they will use another method to give the LN some bite as well as bark.  

  Enter Article X, the covert action arm of the LN.  Starting small, with this being known only by the Great Powers, a small group of skilled agents is brought to the LN to use to bring pressure on rogue nations using espionage, blackmail, exposure, threat of exposure, assassination, etc.  WW II, and the events leading up to it will show that this is not enough in and of itself to provide all of the teeth the LN needs, which becomes moot when the Peacekeepers are formed after the defection of The Teutonic Knight.

I like it.  It solves most of the problems I was having.

Eagle
(And creates some new ones to be dealt with)

[lordroel]

Feb 26, 2016 14:32:04 GMT eagle said:

Feb 26, 2016 9:41:19 GMT lordroel said:

While i agree that the United States should join, unless the LN goes of good from the start it will when it maters in the 1930s not be not strong enough to do anything as it will have two Secretary‑Generals (first a British and then a Frenchmen) who look more to their country than to the LN interest, the last Secretary‑General who was a Irishmen had a hollow organization who could not do anything thanks to the last Secretary‑General firing almost 600 of the 700 personal

Ok, so here's what I have figured out.  The main bone of contention with getting the US into the LN was a little piece of the Covenant called Article X.  So for NO-Earth, Wilson is going to go back and have the LN drop Article X so that he can get past the Senate Ratification process.  That was the only real obstacle.  This allows us to wind up with at least one American SG, or if not, then one more appealing to the Americans.  Wilson, meanwhile, along with some of the other Architects of the LN have decided that if there will be no armed assistance (which is what Article X was about) they will use another method to give the LN some bite as well as bark.  

  Enter Article X, the covert action arm of the LN.  Starting small, with this being known only by the Great Powers, a small group of skilled agents is brought to the LN to use to bring pressure on rogue nations using espionage, blackmail, exposure, threat of exposure, assassination, etc.  WW II, and the events leading up to it will show that this is not enough in and of itself to provide all of the teeth the LN needs, which becomes moot when the Peacekeepers are formed after the defection of The Teutonic Knight.

I like it.  It solves most of the problems I was having.

Eagle
(And creates some new ones to be dealt with)

That is a good explanation, did not now of Article X until i googled it, but it might work without a Article X the United States will join the LN and with it all of the big powers are member.

Like you idea of covert action arm of the LN which could work if the second Secretary‑General (who was a Frenchmen) did not use the LN as part of the French foreign policy than the third Secretary‑General who will be a American in this universe and somebody who seeing the darkness spreading over Earth decides to create Department X, a secret department in the LN who job it is to prevent the world from spreading into chaos, despite the Department X efforts World War II still begins in 1939, our Secretary‑General feeling that the LN has to take part but also keep a neutral stance in the world created the Peacekeepers who job it is to keep the peace (with soft or with gloves of) in a world that has gone to war.

I wondering if this is not going to much into the ASB category or i just in the realm of things that could have happen.

[pugetsound]

One of the ways to get the U.S into the League would be to have Wilson die early on after the war, and his successor is able to join but with the Lodge Amendment.