Red Dawn 20+ AH.com archive

[lordroel]

From page 30

trekchu

West Point, eh? Make sure you accept, my oldest Daughter will go there next year.

Matt Wiser

Congrats on getting the PhD; so you might wind up at Hudson High? Come on west and teach at the Air Force Academy. Lisa went there, and I'm still surprised an Academy grad wound up marrying an OCS alum, but such is life. One of our daughters wants to go there, but the other one wants to go to UCLA and take the ROTC route. Have a good time in Colorado, regardless. Even though you're at a symposium, there's still plenty to do in Denver. Nowadays, you'd hardly know there'd been a siege, but look at the shrapnel holes in Mile High Stadium...ComBloc artillery, they say. You might ask Sen. Mason about the reported Fox TV show-she may have been contacted to serve as an advisor for the production.

I'd rather have McConoughey, personally, but Lisa would rather have Brad Pitt. Jessica Biel or Kate Hudson would be my choice for my backseater/wife. If DOD's Motion Picture Liasion Office wants us to be technical advisors, we'll gladly sign up for that. And we still have our F-4 manuals, so getting some stick time again in the Rhino would be a bonus.

Speaking of records, one thing that those of us in the AF have been curious about is ComBloc aces. We know they had some, and I know firsthand, because one MiG-23 I nailed over Texas during the D/FW business had 11 white stars painted on the side. The plane was Cuban, so I know I killed a Cuban ace, but has anything been found in captured documents as to how many aces the ComBloc had, and who they were? AFHC has some info, but not everything's been declassified there. Panzerfaust, did you interrogate any downed ComBloc aircrew on this matter? The Mann, too: did you go up against anyone who you thought hade five or more on his belt?

Panzerfaust 150

We got one...he was a Russian MiG-29 driver...he said noone got him..that he ingested a bird during low-level CAP near Port Lavaca. I dunno if that's true...but he was more mad he was in the hands of some lowly ground pounders than he was about being captured...I mean, he made a goddamn ass of himself..we had other ComBloc POWs beg us to let him alone with them for a few minutes... Now keep in mind...he was only with us for 24 hours..some of our blue suited colleagues showed up to collect him, and some other aircrew we had. His face lit up when the AF showed...he was nothing but polite with them! Us, we were glad to be rid of the lout.

Matt Wiser

Air Force Intelligence has been strangely tight-lipped about captured aces; it may be because some of 'em decided to stay here and refused repatriation, but that's just a guess. Did this MiG-29 driver have any kill marks on his aircraft, or did the plane go down into the water? The MiG-23 driver I nailed went in with the plane, so....

Think about the AF Academy: they could use a guy with your background, even if he wore Army green in the war instead of AF blue.

Panzerfaust 150

Well,
AF Academy hasn't made me an offer, and last I heard, no openings in the history department. The phone call was from Partisan Rock, asking me if I didn't mind coming to work for them heading up the War Crimes Archives...not sure I wanna do that...too many bad dreams.

As for that MiG-29 driver...he has 17 white stars on the side of his a/c. I know because his aircraft crashed maybe..oh, 1000 meters from our perimeter. It was one of the few times we ever took a prisoner ourselves. The nose survived surprisingly intact...the rest...not so much. AF Technical Intel hauled most of it away in a bunch of deuce and a halfs...but we all snagged some small metal pieces of the skin...there was enough of it...and they seemed more interested in the control surfaces and the cockpit...and what was left of the engines.

Matt Wiser

17 stars on the side....and knocked down by a bird strike. He probably never lived it down. I called my old Squadron Intelligence Officer today(who's now a Colonel at Wright-Patterson AFB's National Air Intelligence Center), and he says there's quite a lot on ComBloc Aces, but that some of the stuff is classified for reasons of protection of the individuals. Seems some of the aces (and he faxed me some copies of Pravda and Gramma-translated, of course) were hailed to the skies by Ivan and Fidel, and when some of the aces were captured, or worse, defected, it meant a likely death warrant. The top ComBloc ace, according to my SIO, was a Russian who flew MiG-23s and then MiG-29s. 35 confirmed kills on his record book, before he took an I-HAWK over East Texas southwest of Texarkana, and wound up in the hands of 8th ID from VII Corps. This chap's in something equal to the Witness Protection Program. The top Cuban was also a MiG-29 driver: 24 kills to his credit. There was also an East German (both MiG-23s and MiG-29s) with 24. Both of these folks are still living "somewhere in the U.S." The East German, of course, can talk now that there's no longer an East Germany, but he's still reluctant to come forward for interviews-the Stasi may be gone, but the KGB isn't.

Too bad the AF Academy doesn't have an opening in the History Department-they could use you. Try the Playland on the Severn (U.S. Naval Academy), before Hudson High.....Given as how you worked with war-crimes investigations, working with the Partisan Rock people might be too much.

There's an Osprey book coming out that those of us who flew would be interested in: it's titled USAF F-4 Phantom Units of World War III. Plenty of firsthand accounts, photos, and color pics for modelers. There's also a companion book for the Navy and Marines coming out also. Look for the book in about a month or so. And no, they didn't contact me, but two others from 335 are featured, and they said some nice things about me and both my back-seaters. There's gun-camera pics, RF-4C imagery, etc. And a couple of notes "from the other side"-guys who were shot down by F-4s.

TheMann

As one of those Phantom drivers, I hope that's a good book, Matt. I'm sure that it'll be good, too.

I know of one ace who one of my wingmen knocked down with a Sparrow. Apparently, he landed unconscious in a Kansas cornfield. A young woman found him in the field and cleaned him up, as well as calling the police, who then called the local Air Force Base. He musta had a shock when he woke up in a farmhouse with a USAF Lt.-Col. waiting for him to wake up. That guy, though, helped us find out what we could do to shut down a Russian fighter base in the area. The F-111 crews did their work, and that base went bye-bye. I hope they made sure that guy stays in America.

Matt Wiser

Osprey does great work, so this one ought to be good. They will have a companion book out about the Navy and Marine F-4 units (all of the former and half of the latter were reservists) in the coming months. And remember that the top USMC aces were an F-4S crew, not a Hornet driver. They've got a few other books on the air war coming, including one on the ComBloc MiG-23s, with sources from the Ukraine, the Russian Republic and some of the 'stans. That one should be an eye-opener.

Which part of Kansas was that? It had to be somwhere close to the Nebraska or Missouri state lines, as most of the state was occupied by the ComBloc at the high point of the war. That Kansas prairie was good tank country-first for the bad guys, and then for us. When I got back from my E&E, and was looking at back issues of The Arizona Republic, there was a story about whether or not to evacuate Leavenworth-not the Command and General Staff College-that had already been sent to Fort Drum in New York for the Duration-but the prison. Someone in the story was arguing that the prisoners should be left there, for Ivan to "deal with as they see fit." The counterargument was that the prisoners who could be given a second chance be allowed to redeem themselves, while the hardcases should be sent to other facilities. The Kansas, Nebraska, and Kentucky NG's 35th Mechanized Infantry Division made the thing moot when they held off two Cuban MRDs and a Soviet Tank Regiment long enough for VII Corps to relieve them.

One thing about AF Intelligence was that we rarely, if ever, had to pressure captured ComBloc aircrew to start talking. Most of the time, they were glad to be among fellow airmen, even if we were the evil capitalist enemy, so pilots or WSOs who had been grounded due to injuries were often assigned as interrogators. Our SIO was a trained spook, but on the few occasions we had a captured enemy aircrew, one of us pilots would be there with him. More often than not, the guy would want to open up to a fellow pilot. And how'd he deal with hardcases (there were a couple)? Simple: he'd tell them that if they didn't talk, there were angry civilians outside the base whose town had been bombed or rocketed by aircraft, and they wanted revenge. "You can talk to me, or take your chances with them. Your choice, Comrade. Which one is it?" They started talking, as the last thing they wanted was to be strung up from a telephone pole. Of course, he was bluffing, but the prisoner didn't know that.

trekchu

We pulled a couple like that during mid-war. Only that we mostly had Motor-Rifle or Tank troops, and that I threatened them with leaving them to my men.

Matt Wiser

Simple, but effective, especially if you put on a great act. Having some people outside sound like an angry mob worked every time.

The Scott brothers will be up at Mountain Home and Hill in a couple of weeks; all they need to do once they get to Mountain Home is pass a modified flight physical (standard for these kind of orientation rides), and some basics on what to do in case of ejection, and they'll be in the air.

Panzerfaust, when's this symposium? Hopefully, you'll let us know how it turned out. I'd imagine the Siege of Denver will be a major topic of discussion. That, and the evac of the Air Force Academy (very important to Colorado Springs).

trekchu

Panzerfaust, when's this symposium? Hopefully, you'll let us know how it turned out. I'd imagine the Siege of Denver will be a major topic of discussion. That, and the evac of the Air Force Academy (very important to Colorado Springs).

When was the evac exactly?

BlackWave

When was the evac exactly?

I think someone mentioned earlier that it was about the start of the invasion. As for the siege of Denver, I know someone who managed to sat it out--by the end of it, people were almost resorting to cannabilism, disease and starvation was out of control, and as people were defecting to the Sovs out of sheer desparation nobody trusted each other. So many died that to this day the population of Denver is still small in proportion to its size. And as the Sovs attempted several times to penetrate it using soldiers in stolen uniforms, when the liberators shown up they were attacked by some paranoid cits. Many small towns around the city were trashed--to this day, along with most small towns in the midwest, they still look like Brazilian favelas.

Matt Wiser

It was bad: when I flew over there in July '86, after getting back in the saddle, you could smell the stench, even in a fighter cockpit. It was what, 14 months from the start of the siege to being relieved? September '85 to November '86, IIRC. The C-130 guys did their best, but when people don't turn in the stuff air-dropped and hoard it themselves....the body count was near 300,000 from what you read, and that's just an estimate. When Stapleton IAP, Lowry AFB, and Buckley ANG Base were open (not often), the Herky-Birds did try evacuating people, but as I said earlier, they took 50% casualties on the whole effort. Even the Go-Go CH-47s, which could and did fight their way in to pick up people, had trouble there. Getting two Chinooks out of eight in the unit shot up on consecutive nights didn't help at all.

The AF Academy evac was in the first few days; it took three days to get everything and everyone across the Rockies. All done by road, as there were no air assets (everyone was still in that post-invasion shock of that first week). It took two weeks to get everyone to Beale and set up some kind of temporary campus there. And the normal four years was accelerated to three, similar to West Point and Annapolis in WW II (both of which also went to three-year programs). All the VDV found when they arrived (by land-they didn't jump on the campus because there weren't that many safe DZs-the one used by Academy cadets for their own skydiving was too small) was an empty campus-completely stripped and abandoned. Colonel Moreau, who was a senior at the Academy then, has some interesting stories about getting over the Rockies-traveling at night over some mighty difficult roads, watching an Su-17 try a rocket pass on her convoy and smash into the side of a mountain, etc. After six weeks at Beale, the entire senior class was graduated early and received their commissions. If she ever writes her own book, it'd be a fascinating read.

I got my advance copy of Keegan's book today. Can't wait to crack it open....in a note, he says that he has ample criticism of both sides-Ivan, though, has a lot of it for failing to cut the country in half, and for mounting the Alaska-Canada side of the war with very little in the way of infrastructure in the Soviet Far East. The Navy's raid on Petropavalosk was one example of how putting a base out of action for a while could-and did-have serious consequences for the land campaign in that part of North America. He also give some well deserved criticism for us, saying that first counteroffensive in Spring '86-ADVENT CROWN-was launched before those units participating were really ready. He may have a point in that it didn't get very far-and then Ivan's attempt to get to Casper and Lincoln followed. Then we started to push them back, but it still took three years to do it.

Pyro

Vancouver was slightly better off with an estimated 200,000 casualties, and my uncle who survived the siege told me that starvation and disease were just as rampant as they were in Denver. He even said there were "packs" of war orphans scurrying among the ruins, some of them as young as four or five, and barely articulate enough to put two syllables together. It makes me feel lucky that I ended up as one of the well adjusted war orphans, despite the fact that I only discovered I had surviving family when I was thirteen.

trekchu

Matt Wiser said: He also give some well deserved criticism for us, saying that first counteroffensive in Spring '86-ADVENT CROWN-was launched before those units participating were really ready. He may have a point in that it didn't get very far-and then Ivan's attempt to get to Casper and Lincoln followed. Then we started to push them back, but it still took three years to do it.

Don't get me started on ADVENT CROWN. We were part of that in the extreme north and had barely formed up as a unit. They still expected us to punch through three Soviet MRD and one East-German Tank Divisions, and they then relieved the Division commander for failing to do so. We did similar stunts a couple of times later on, but then we were a proper unit and not so goddamn green.

Matt Wiser

Wasn't your first real action that attempt to link up with the Wolverines? Not at division level, but brigade, perhaps? ADVENT CROWN was a real mess, period. I flew CAS during some of that, and you could see from the air how disorganized a lot of units were. (getting lost, taking the wrong objectives, etc.) Not to mention an Army ground observer asking for an air strike on certain coordinates, and as it turned out, he was asking us to hit his own position! He should be glad we had Pave Spike pods and could visually ID the vehicles....otherwise, he'd be dead.

Of course, the one Ivan least expected was GULF MARINER: the amphib attack on Houston. Given that the air and coastal SSM threat from Cuba hadn't been completely taken out, getting the amphibious force thru the Florida Straits must've been...interesting. The Air War College study mentioned the deception plan: hitting the Louisiana coast instead of the beaches south of Houston-Galveston. Phony SEAL ops, more recon over the Lousiana coast, etc. And just a plain radio message, saying that Schwartzkopf was going to Baton Rouge instead of Shreveport meant the ComBloc Reserves went to Louisiana instead of staying in East Texas.

One thing we found out in New Mexico: 3rd ACR overran a Cuban rear-area facility, and the AAA guarding it was all-female. Now the Cubans (and NKs) had, and probably still have such units, but this was the first time we'd seen it for real. The Soviets were still chauvinist to the core, but did anybody encounter other ComBloc forces going this route? They started getting shortages of warm male bodies, too...

trekchu

Yes, there was that push with the Wolverines, but my unit wasn't part of that Brigade then. When they did that op ( shame that it failed ) my unit was still training to turn a bunch of civies and reservists into real tankers.

Matt Wiser

When did you transfer? Sometime between January and May of '86. Too bad that op to link up with the Wolverines went south...Any other horror stories from that SNAFU?

For some reason, according to the Air War College, Ivan thought the amphib op in the Gulf was aimed at Lake Charles instead of Houston, and the deception played into that. Whoever was running things in the Gulf TVD was either on something or wasn't thinking right. Intially, all they had south of the Houston-Galveston area was REMF types, but that changed fast. There was a VDV air-assault brigade doing some training at Lake Jackson, north of the assault beaches at Freeport, and both Ivan and Fidel moved reinforcements in pretty fast after those blue berets ran into 2nd Marine Division as it broke out of the beachhead.

I'll be starting Keegan's book tonight...you guys will get a review once I'm finished

trekchu

My unit joined 14th AD in late March.

Chuck Mandus

Matt Wiser said: That was a congresscritter who actually had some brains. Given that he'd been behind the lines, and "been there, done that"....

Panzerfaust, you mentioned someone who'd been with 6th ID up in Alaska earlier...that was another division that had to be literally rebuilt. One brigade never made it out of Alaska, while another got ground to pieces somewhere in the Yukon, and the survivors were lucky enough to get away-all those MiGs, Sukhois, and Hinds roaming around. Just like the Army, the AF up there just got plain overwhelmed. Getting caught on the ground at Elmendorf by a three-regiment Backfire strike didn't help things any-all those AS-4s incoming...

How'd the radio show go, Chuck?

Well, the former Warsaw Pact show went well, we did have one caller who called them "Communist Heathens" but he's always a thorn in my side, sort of like my own version of Art Bell's "J.C" who keeps calling him "the Devil's Sidekick." Most callers were supportive of the POW's coming here and starting a new life though and would prefer to bring more over and ship the collaborators over there in exchange. My next special is on how amateur radio operators helped out in the war as well, I did some of that myself.

[lordroel]

From page 31

Matt Wiser

They're not the only ones with that viewpoint. Lots of people all over the country would rather ship the collaborators to either Moscow or Havana. One of the ex-POWs I mentioned earlier (lives in Park City now) helps run a ski resort, and discovered he had a talent for marketing and promotions. He's a former Soviet Naval Aviation Yak-38 pilot, and his daughter is one of my junior pilots in the 419th. He met a Utah girl, settled down, and is doing pretty well.

Anyone call in with stories from that Raven Rock business? From Ivan's POV, that was a nasty way to lose a Spetsnatz battalion. Dropping on the wrong DZs, finding out the area's more heavily defended than they expected, and having no real means of extraction. Not to mention armed locals taking potshots at them while they're in their chutes, and harassing Ivan at every opportunity.

One surprise from Keegan: seems there were a number of Soviet General Staff officers who were flat out opposed to the invasion, pointing out long supply lines, very strong naval interdiction of convoys to Cuba, and an armed and hostile population. The Deputy Chief of the General Staff took these objections to his boss and the Defense Minister, and those officers, since it wasn't yet wartime, were given their dachas, their pensions, and their heads. Keegan interviewed two of them in Helsinki, and a third in Stockholm. The two in Helsinki have written their own book (though not available yet in English) called Bear in the Eagle's Nest: The Russian View of World War III. They've interviewed sources in a number of former Soviet Republics, though the rump USSR is still off-limits to just about everyone. Some of their sources do indicate that the Kremlin leadership was living in its own fantasy world as the war dragged on, and even as the USSR fell apart, and that those members of the Politburo not on the Defense Council felt betrayed when the military arranged some secret briefings via the GRU to inform them how things were really going. Up until August of '87, the Kremlin still maintained the fantasy that they were winning. Only after the Battle of Wichita and the last gasp of any kind of offensive action did the old men in Moscow begin to realize that they could very well lose the war.

Panzerfaust 150

Sorry about the long absence...just got back from Denver. They've done a hell of a job rebuilding it. The Victory Arch is something lit up at night, eh? In any event, I presented my dissertation and book at the symposium and asserted that the collapse of Soviet morale is what allowed Denver to hold out. That the average Soviet soldier wasn't willing to take the casualties to take Denver proper.

As for the conference, it was on the whole, about the conventional end of the war in and around Denver, presentation of the Partisan Rock archives opening up the Tier II records officially, and, of course. Senator Mason. Wouldn't you know it...she wound up making news there when she said she didn't want to? She let slip she was going to put her hat in for the GOP nomination for the Governor's race in the fall. It's interesting to hear she got endorsed by both sides of the isle. She'll be a real asset in the ongoing reconstruction in CO. Got my copy of her book signed...and we spoke for about 5 minutes or so...She actually asked me how Colonel Bella was doing. I told her well, but that I couldn't get into more details about that.

As for my job hunt, I got a very interesting phone call from the Air Warfare College for an interview next week? Matt, did you drop a hint or three? The Colonel I spoke to is a nice guy, but he sounded damn young to be a Colonel?

Anyhow, wife's bugging me to get off the PC and come to bed. And damn am I tired. Stapleton to Dulles on the redeye. Ugh.

Matt Wiser

I'll admit, this young Colonel did drop your name to the folks at Maxwell AFB...one thing about the war, it made a lot of folks advance in rank at a faster pace than normal. I probably would've just been a Captain at the end of '89 if there'd been no war, for example. The colonel you talked to was probably a 2nd Lt. (or maybe an enlisted airman or NCO) at the start. When you get to Montgomery, AL (where Maxwell is), be wary of Alabama's heat and humidity. I was there for a year, and it was nasty in summer and early fall. The AF Historical Center is there, too, so you'll have plenty of material. Just make sure you're still cleared for Top Secret or better...they do have classified archives.

So Sen. Mason is going to run for Governor? Interesting news. I wonder if she's thinking of higher office than that....I'd hate to be the poor schmuck who runs against her, regardless. She still have that AK-74 up on her office wall? IIRC a People piece on her a few years back, and it showed her at work, with that rifle mounted in her office. So Denver's pretty much reconstructed...Colorado Springs beat them to it, but then again, the AF poured a lot of money into rebuilding the AF Academy campus, NORAD, and Peterson AFB....Lots of money got spent on the cities and towns on the I-25 corridor for rebuilding. Did the Soviet Command in the Denver area recognize this problem? One might expect the GRU's Field Security Units to "set a few examples" to motivate the troops to take the city. Or did the Soviets feel that taking the city house-by-house was just too much, even for them?

Your copy of Keegan's book should've arrived while you were in Denver. That first bit from Soviet prewar planning was an eye-opener. The Osprey book on the USAF Phantoms also arrived in the mail, courtesy of a friend who was interviewed for the book, and sent me and Lisa a copy.

BlackWave

About Raven Rock: like with Hawaii and other incidents, many historians, myself included, feel like the whole thing was deliberate. Many of the 'Spetnatz' troops were underequipped, missing key uniform elements, and weren't on any elite troop registers. Given that there was some dissidence among the Soviet elite forces as the war went on, it's more than likely that the whole thing was a literal suicide mission for suspected dissidence. Remember, the Soviets weren't stupid; the fact that they came within a millimeter of defeating us should say something. Considering that they successfully took out many of our key commanders throughout the war...

trekchu

That would fit the bill, as I encountered a lot of stupid counter-attacks later in the war. More than a couple of times we were attacked although it would have been better to keep the reserves back, and that even from usually competent commanders.

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: I'll admit, this young Colonel did drop your name to the folks at Maxwell AFB...one thing about the war, it made a lot of folks advance in rank at a faster pace than normal. I probably would've just been a Captain at the end of '89 if there'd been no war, for example. The colonel you talked to was probably a 2nd Lt. (or maybe an enlisted airman or NCO) at the start. When you get to Montgomery, AL (where Maxwell is), be wary of Alabama's heat and humidity. I was there for a year, and it was nasty in summer and early fall. The AF Historical Center is there, too, so you'll have plenty of material. Just make sure you're still cleared for Top Secret or better...they do have classified archives.

I keep my clearance current, the contracting gigs required it. As for the other matters, they said they were gonna run their own SSCPI background check as well as a redo of my current TS clearance...but, they are going to have me down for an interview next month.

Matt Wiser said: So Sen. Mason is going to run for Governor? Interesting news. I wonder if she's thinking of higher office than that....I'd hate to be the poor schmuck who runs against her, regardless. She still have that AK-74 up on her office wall? IIRC a People piece on her a few years back, and it showed her at work, with that rifle mounted in her office. So Denver's pretty much reconstructed...Colorado Springs beat them to it, but then again, the AF poured a lot of money into rebuilding the AF Academy campus, NORAD, and Peterson AFB....Lots of money got spent on the cities and towns on the I-25 corridor for rebuilding. Did the Soviet Command in the Denver area recognize this problem? One might expect the GRU's Field Security Units to "set a few examples" to motivate the troops to take the city. Or did the Soviets feel that taking the city house-by-house was just too much, even for them?

Little mix of both, but the fact was...the Soviets soon realized they'd have to shoot whole battalions in job lots..so, they decided on a siege instead. I think the going view was "not another Berlin or Stalingrad".

Matt Wiser said: Your copy of Keegan's book should've arrived while you were in Denver. That first bit from Soviet prewar planning was an eye-opener. The Osprey book on the USAF Phantoms also arrived in the mail, courtesy of a friend who was interviewed for the book, and sent me and Lisa a copy.

I had my copy of it waiting for me...my wife had already read her copy halfway through. As for me, just began it...and yeah..it's very interesting...the Politbouro overruled EVERYBODY in the planning process. Not a healthy way to start a war...

trekchu

Panzerfaust 150 said: I had my copy of it waiting for me...my wife had already read her copy halfway through. As for me, just began it...and yeah..it's very interesting...the Politbouro overruled EVERYBODY in the planning process. Not a healthy way to start a war...

That's not really surprising. From how I understand it, the so-called Defence Council in the Kremlin realized that NATO, even weakened, was eclipsing them in Military Strength, with our technical superiority making up for their numbers. They apparently thought that with NATO splitting like it did, they would take out the biggest baddie first and then the rest would be ripe for the picking. Apparently the long-term plan was to take over Europe too after we were no longer there to intervene. I haven't read my copy of the book yet, but the above is from some DoD estimates and some other works I read over the years.

Matt Wiser

Enjoy Alabama, even if you're there only for the interview. One thing they've added since the time I was there is a collection of "acquired" ComBloc aircraft on display. MiG-21s, -23/27, MiG-25 (the one they have is the recon version-only the F-14 or F-15 could catch them at altitude), MiG-29, etc.

So they tried a version of the Siege of Leningrad....nice. Did the symposium touch on the sad fact that a lot of the air-dropped supplies were hoarded by whoever found them, instead of being turned in for equal distribution? I recall reading in several books actual fire-fights between some of the Army and armed locals over air-dropped supplies. It took some drastic action to get that behavior....controlled. And Sen. Mason was asking about Colonel Bella? Very interesting. Have they met, or are memories still a barrier to that? (not to mention his handlers in the Witness Protection Program-our friend in Havana still has a price out on Bella's head....)

That first chapter was really an eye-opener. The Kremlin's chief ideologist (a 85-year old who'd been around since WW II), practically quoted Hitler "Smash in the door, and the whole rotten system will come crashing down" at the final Politburo meeting to give the go/no-go decision. I wonder if he regretted saying that beginning in Spring '87, when things regularly went the good guys' way...since he died before the end, I doubt it. A grandson of Marshal Chuikov (the defender of Stalingrad) fought in the war, and he was one of many Soviet generals who knew that once that first winter came and things became stalled, it was essentially pointless. Of course, he kept that opinion to himself. Even after Wichita, when that Kursk-type offensive failed, the General Secretary and KGB chief clung to the fantasy that they would still win. It took Midland-Odessa to finally convince them otherwise, and GULF MARINER's success to force the KGB Chief to "resign."

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: Enjoy Alabama, even if you're there only for the interview. One thing they've added since the time I was there is a collection of "acquired" ComBloc aircraft on display. MiG-21s, -23/27, MiG-25 (the one they have is the recon version-only the F-14 or F-15 could catch them at altitude), MiG-29, etc.

I'll got take a look when I get down there.

Matt Wiser said: So they tried a version of the Siege of Leningrad....nice. Did the symposium touch on the sad fact that a lot of the air-dropped supplies were hoarded by whoever found them, instead of being turned in for equal distribution? I recall reading in several books actual fire-fights between some of the Army and armed locals over air-dropped supplies. It took some drastic action to get that behavior....controlled. And Sen. Mason was asking about Colonel Bella? Very interesting. Have they met, or are memories still a barrier to that? (not to mention his handlers in the Witness Protection Program-our friend in Havana still has a price out on Bella's head....)

It was a major topic in the symposium, entitled "Starvation or Suistinance; Moral Choices to preserve life inside the Denver perimeter." It was heartbreaking because one of the presenters was the chief archivist for St. Joseph Hospital. He had the death and birth records for the period...done on the backs of old patient charts. Often, it was the same patient who had just died. The worst was when the NICU lost power early in the siege....As for the hording...yep there were firefights..and the worse hording offender was the Denver city government...if you can believe it. The Denver PD was split over this one when it was found out, and the military had to take direct rule that lasted for the duration when a nasty power stuggle broke out after the Mayor died of cholera.

Matt Wiser said: That first chapter was really an eye-opener. The Kremlin's chief ideologist (a 85-year old who'd been around since WW II), practically quoted Hitler "Smash in the door, and the whole rotten system will come crashing down" at the final Politburo meeting to give the go/no-go decision. I wonder if he regretted saying that beginning in Spring '87, when things regularly went the good guys' way...since he died before the end, I doubt it. A grandson of Marshal Chuikov (the defender of Stalingrad) fought in the war, and he was one of many Soviet generals who knew that once that first winter came and things became stalled, it was essentially pointless. Of course, he kept that opinion to himself. Even after Wichita, when that Kursk-type offensive failed, the General Secretary and KGB chief clung to the fantasy that they would still win. It took Midland-Odessa to finally convince them otherwise, and GULF MARINER's success to force the KGB Chief to "resign."

Yeah, Keegan is devastating in his analysis of the Soviet decision making process. Their theory was colored more by ideology than military fact, and instead of one ideologically driven lunatic..you had a cabal of them operating in an echo chamber all plotting against each other at the same time....what a mess.

Matt Wiser

It's a pretty decent collection. A Hip and a Hind still have bullet holes...and a couple of "retired" SAF pilots teach there, also. One's Armenian, the other's Russian, but from one of the 'stans-nowhere to go home to postwar, so he refused repatriation from the EPW compound.

The Army had to take some pretty drastic measures...public executions, as I recall from the reading. Still, the C-130 and CH-47 people did the best they could in getting stuff in and trying to get as many civilians and wounded military out. Did you see the C-130 at Stapleton that's a war memorial? That bird was shot up and force-landed, and the AF didn't bother repairing it after the siege was lifted. When I got out of the Rockies, I went on foot most of the way, but a Go-Go Girl CH-47 came in and picked me and the rest of the evadees up. Those guys and gals really lived up to the motto "Anyone, Anywhere, Anytime." And then we had that run-in with Colonel Bella in that cafe in Sallida...

Keegan's pretty harsh: even the Defense Minister, whose job it was to give frank and honest advice to the Politburo, gave a best-case presentation to the Defense Council and the whole body. Wasn't he purged after that failed Summer Offensive in '86? Or was the Theater Commander the scapegoat, as the various books do mention some nasty blood-letting...

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: Keegan's pretty harsh: even the Defense Minister, whose job it was to give frank and honest advice to the Politburo, gave a best-case presentation to the Defense Council and the whole body. Wasn't he purged after that failed Summer Offensive in '86? Or was the Theater Commander the scapegoat, as the various books do mention some nasty blood-letting...

Yep, him, the Great Plains TVD commander, and two Army commanders. And that wasn't the only time...our SIGINT assets intercepted orders to the KGB units trapped in the Brownsville perimeter at the time to shoot the army commanders who were working out the surrender...this was...of course..during said parley..happily, as we all know, no such order was carried out, methinks even the Checkists trapped in Brownsville knew the jig was up.

Matt Wiser

IIRC from various readings that Chuikov's grandson was a divisional and later an Army Commander (11th Guards Army). He tried breaking through to St. Louis that Summer of '86-and got close enough to toss some 122-mm from his divisional artilery into the city, but had to pull back when a Cuban division was cut to pieces and his left flank was left open. He knew then that they'd shot their bolt-for good. He was one of those later trapped in Houston after GULF MARINER, and one day he told his staff to "do what you think is best." What'd he do? Walk to the line held by the 22nd Marines, 6th Marine Division, and surrendered. Panzerfaust, did you guys have him as a guest, or did the Marines handle him?

One thing about Denver I'm curious about: was the besieging force entirely Soviet? I recall flying missions during the second push to lift the siege (the one that succeeded) and someone said on the radio that they'd seen a Libyan flag near an artillery battery they'd just dumped Rockeyes on. We never heard anything more about that, and kinda forgot about it when the drive south and east to push the ComBloc out of artillery range was going on. It came back when I took a look at the Osprey F-4 book and the same guy repeated the account.

I just started Chapter II: the actual invasion. Seems Ivan did have two plans: one for nukes on the ICBMs only, and one with that and the strikes on the key cities in the Midwest, D.C, and New York. The General Staff preferred the former, but the ideologues on the Defense Council went to the second one. Keegan's sources, when asked, said that the General Secretary and the Ideologist felt that "If the heart of capitalism is burned out, then they will no longer fight for it." Wrong on that, as they were on so much. Their planning thought it'd be over in three months....

So the KGB refused to obey the order to liquidate the Army commanders who were working out the Brownsville pocket's surrender? It just shows how detached from reality Moscow and Havana were then, and still are. Those guys still don't get the fact that they lost the war.

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: IIRC from various readings that Chuikov's grandson was a divisional and later an Army Commander (11th Guards Army). He tried breaking through to St. Louis that Summer of '86-and got close enough to toss some 122-mm from his divisional artilery into the city, but had to pull back when a Cuban division was cut to pieces and his left flank was left open. He knew then that they'd shot their bolt-for good. He was one of those later trapped in Houston after GULF MARINER, and one day he told his staff to "do what you think is best." What'd he do? Walk to the line held by the 22nd Marines, 6th Marine Division, and surrendered. Panzerfaust, did you guys have him as a guest, or did the Marines handle him?

Sadly, no..the Marines got to cook and clean that fish.

Matt Wiser said: One thing about Denver I'm curious about: was the besieging force entirely Soviet? I recall flying missions during the second push to lift the siege (the one that succeeded) and someone said on the radio that they'd seen a Libyan flag near an artillery battery they'd just dumped Rockeyes on. We never heard anything more about that, and kinda forgot about it when the drive south and east to push the ComBloc out of artillery range was going on. It came back when I took a look at the Osprey F-4 book and the same guy repeated the account.

The way it worked out, the Soviets bypassed Denver to the east and west. They then handed it over to a composite army that rotated shot up and green divisions in and out of the perimeter so the Combloc could blood these divisions...I wouldn't be surprised if there were Libyans had a unit in the perimeter around Denver.

Matt Wiser

Too bad; I'd bet he would've been an interesting fella to have had a chat with. His interrogation reports are probably in the Marine Corps Archives at Quantico-and probably are still classified. I'm wondering if he's one of the generals who are "living quietly in the U.S.", because the Rump USSR basically considers anyone who voluntarily surrendered as a traitor.

I gather some units in the siege were more enthuasistic than others. From the books, it appears that some of the besiegers were more eager to attack than others-the body counts inflicted on such attackers speak for themselves. And that meant that the defenders had more weapons to use-the Army and armed civilians would go out at nightfall and collect as many Combloc weapons and ammo as possible.

I'm halfway through Chapter II at the moment; Now Keegan has some harsh words for us: He feels that the decision to hold on the I-10 line in Texas was the worst possible one, as a breakthrough on one or more axes of attack meant the line gets ruptured (as it did at San Antonio and Houston). Keegan felt that the best decision from the start is what we finally did after Ivan crossed into Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Colorado in strength: delay, delay, delay. Force him to outrun his supply lines and trade space for time. Even his Russian sources say that's what we should've done at the start.

Panzerfaust 150

I agree with Keegan, the I-10 fight was when our unit was forming up to go west, and to be honest, we all thought it was boneheaded, but the politicians were insisting we weren't going to "throw away Texas to save the midwest". Considering the whole line had been pretty well outflanked by the airdrops in the Rockies anyhow...it was a moot point to even try to hold that line. Then again, once we got to Lousiana, our unit spent most of it's time training up for it's role in the Houston and later fighting...got so bad the joke around battalion was that they were saving us for the junior prom....

Matt Wiser

Given that the other side had more than its share of political interference....at least we didn't shoot anybody who disagreed with the civilian leadership. And when a couple of Army and AF generals who had been nearly thrown to the wolves by the politicians got vindicated, those guys made national headlines-and the congresscritters who tossed them to the wolves got tossed themselves in the '86 election. One thing about America: even in the midst of a foreign invasion, a good chunk of the Midwest and nearly all of Alaska under enemy occupation, and we still had our scheduled congressional elections. From various books, Ivan couldn't believe it. We did the same thing in the Civil War, too, and even after most of the occupied areas had been liberated by spring of '88, the Presidential campaign got going. No big rallies, of course (too tempting a target for either an air strike or SOF), but still...Iowa and New Hampshire got the ball rolling.

The airdrops in the Rockies were very well coordinated, well planned, and executed. The only one that was botched was that one near Colorado Springs, when Ivan tried to get the AF Academy. Even the Russians admit in Keegan that they were surprised as to how well the airborne phase went. The follow-on with the air-landed Cubans was equally well executed. However, the Phoenix drop and that push up I-19 was something not in the final plan, but was added at the request of both the Cubans and Mexicans. Lot of good that did 'em. An elite airborne brigade cut to ribbons, and a Mexican armored brigade (T-55s only, but still..) shattered. That helped make the Arizona border relatively quiet, other than SOF crossings, for the whole war.

BlackWave

Matt Wiser said: Given that the other side had more than its share of political interference....at least we didn't shoot anybody who disagreed with the civilian leadership.

Technically, there were actually a few nutcases in the ranks who did that...but these were psychopaths who saw red in every corner, and they were of course got rid of quite soon. As for the congressional elections...well, seeing as most of the unoccupied population was busy collectively shitting its pants and going into chaos, they may as well have not held them. Especially when you look at the anarchy of the immediate post war years.

Matt Wiser

The '86 elections were a brawl (in some cases, literally), I'll grant you. At least I voted (by military absentee). The further away you were from the front lines, the more "normal" the campaigns were. And anyone who even advocated some kind of negotiated settlement of the war lost-big time. A couple of such candidates (not incumbents) wound up getting literally tarred and feathered. I remember a congressman from Arizona (former Navy pilot in Vietnam and ex-POW) who basically said that "The time for negotiating with the Soviets ended on Invasion Day. From now on, our Armed Forces do our talking for us." He won with 85% of the vote in his district. Later, he wound up Governor in the early '90s, and then a Senator. There were two generals who were talked about as Presidential material after the war: but Powell stayed in the Army and retired as Chairman of the JCS in the mid '90s. Schwartzkopf was courted by both parties as well, but he declined. He succeeded Powell as JCS Chair before retiring. Both did get five-star rank...

Wasn't just in the military: there were a lot of folks out there who saw reds under every corner. Even the ACLU got targeted as being Red-friendly by some of those wackos. Some of those guys would've made McCarthy wince....

[lordroel]

From page 32

Matt Wiser

Okay, guys, I've finished up with Chapter II, and here's what else Keegan has to say about the initial invasion:

First, the use of nukes on cities was felt by the Soviet General Staff to be counterproductive. It made the USSR look very bad to neutrals, and reinforced those American allies (South Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, Israel, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia) to reinforce their support, and made sure that those countries who had declared their neutrality were not all that eager to see the USSR win. The only two strikes on cities that the Soviet Generals felt were worth it were the Omaha strike (SAC Headquarters south of the City) and Washington, D.C.; the Kansas City and NYC bombs were felt to be unnecessary from a military standpoint, and the former was actually a hinderance: the Soviets wanted the road and rail nets thru K.C., during the Summer Offensive in '86, and apart from the I-435 beltway, were largely unusuable.

Second: there were two credible diversionary operations that did work well: moving a Cuban amphibious force, with some Soviet Marines, to the Straits of Florida. That meant the 3rd ID (redeployed from Germany) and 11th ACR were kept pinned to the I-4 line for two weeks. The other one was a failed drive up from Mexicali to El Centro, CA. This one got mopped up fast by 1st Marine Division, but it and the Phoenix air drop meant that 1st MarDiv got to the Rio Grande too late, and had to hold the river line instead of helping 3rd ACR and the Fort Bliss School Brigade units escape.

Third, and finally: Alaska-Canada. The Soviets were careful enough not to shove more forces into the Northern Theater than they could initally support. But what they did send (the 6th Army from the Kola Peninsula and the 1st Guards Tank Army from East Germany) was enough. The Soviet Pacific Fleet lost half of its surface warships and 1/3 of its submarine force keeping the USN as far as possible from the Convoys moving across the Bering Sea and from the Soviet Far East to Anchorage and Juneau. That price was felt to be well paid by the Soviets. Eventually, the Soviets did put sixty divisions into the Northern Theater, but keeping them properly supplied was a supreme effort. Most of the SAF's transports and half of the Soviet Merchant Marine was tied up supporting that part of the campaign. And the reason they never got across the Canadian-U.S. border? Not just the two vicious battles north of the border, but the fact that the attacking force (1st Guards and 6th Guards Tank Armies-the latter from the Ukraine) literally ran out of gas while on the attack.

Chapter III deals with the U.S. response, and the outbreak of guerilla warfare in both the U.S. and Canada. MFL.

Pyro

Matt Wiser said: Eventually, the Soviets did put sixty divisions into the Northern Theater, but keeping them properly supplied was a supreme effort. Most of the SAF's transports and half of the Soviet Merchant Marine was tied up supporting that part of the campaign. And the reason they never got across the Canadian-U.S. border? Not just the two vicious battles north of the border, but the fact that the attacking force (1st Guards and 6th Guards Tank Armies-the latter from the Ukraine) literally ran out of gas while on the attack.

The fact that many of the oil rigs were destroyed, as well as the refineries in Edmonton didn't help I imagine.

Matt Wiser said: Chapter III deals with the U.S. response, and the outbreak of guerilla warfare in both the U.S. and Canada. MFL.

I can hardly wait to hear it. Another mention of the Wolverine, or the Wild Roses?

Matt Wiser

I'm only halfway through Chapter III, but here's his take on the guerilla warfare angle: Most guerilla bands in the U.S. and Canada were not formed deliberately. A case in point would be the Wolverines, who fled into the Rockies just to get away from the initial invasion, and only turned guerilla when a party of Soviet troops came upon their location. It didn't take long for those fleeing the ComBloc (gun owners, local law enforcement, and those scared to death of being arrested) to follow the first groups of people who fled. Many organized themeselves on an ad hoc basis, and only in the first winter (1985-86) did the U.S. and Canadian militaries begin sending arms, explosives, and Special Forces teams to the guerillas to get them better organized, trained, and led. The learning curve was steep, and many of the first groups were wiped out that first year: the Wolverines being only one of many. Still, there were enough survivors to keep things going, and the more reprisals the ComBloc visited on civilians, the more recruits to join the guerillas in the Rockies, the Ozarks, the forests of East Texas, and the swamps of Louisiana and Arkansas.

trekchu

Chapter IV deals with units like 14th AD, so I'm hot for that. I talked some with Keegan via E-Mail but I couldn't make it when he came to our reunion a while back.....

BlackWave

Having read that book, I can say that's it quite good, but quite frankly a few segments are either badly research or obviously made up, as many others have pointed out--the information would need him to interview people who either died during the war or access records locked under the Kremlin that no westerner has a chance of accessing. Still, considering that it took a while to compile records of the war, it's not exactly his fault, and apart from that few items of obvious bull it's well-researched and written.

Matt Wiser

Having finished Chapter III, here's the rest:

First, the Soviets missed two key Presidential successors after the D.C. strike: Vice President George Bush was on a speaking engagement in Indianapolis, and was sworn in as President when it was confirmed that the President was dead by a Federal Court Judge. He went immediately to Raven Rock to take charge. Second, the Speaker of the House, Tip O'Neil, was in Boston when the attack took place, and he called on surviving members of Congress to assemble at the "alternate location", which turned out to be the Greenbriar Hotel in West Virginia, where a bunker for Congress and the Supreme Court had been built in the 1950s.

Second, the JCS was reconsitituted with senior flag officers, and they assembled at Raven Rock, along with James Webb, an assistant Secretary of the Navy, who was appointed as acting Secretary of Defense. And Henry Kissinger came out of retirement to serve as Secretary of State again. Gen. Alexander Haig, Reagan's first SecState, was asked to serve as National Security Advisor, and did so admirably for the duration of the war, despite requests to be reactivated as a full General and serve in a field command.

After the I-10 debacle, an attempt to hold the ComBloc advance at the Red River was easily outflanked, and only then was the decision made to trade space for time. However, there was one line that was ordered to be held at all costs: the Canadian-U.S. border. VII Corps (redeployed from Germany) and the Canadian Army managed to hold the attackers short of the border, and the Soviets never again tried to attack to link up with ComBloc forces from the south. With that, Keegan's Russian sources say, the Soviets threw away their best chance of winning the war outright by cutting the U.S. in half, and the war settled down into a stalemate for the winter of 1985-86, punctuated by air strikes, Special Operations raids, increasing guerilla activity, and the Siege of Denver.

CiH

The thing I'm still trying to get my head around even after all these years is the lack of response to the nukes that took place at the start. How did the Soviets know they would get away with it without inviting, at best, a proportionate response, and who knows what for a worst case?

Was it restraint, a loss of command and control in the early days, or something else, or a combination of all of the above?

BlackWave

Many, many theories have been suggested for this. The government never made an official explanation, but I've read several suggestions: the shock of the initial first attack, combined with most of our top command being wiped out, prevented this; we had just discovered they had a secret SDI system that would intercept most of our missiles; we simply felt that it would just result in a MAD scenario; and so on. It's one of those mysteries of the war.

trekchu

The theory that goes through the middle levels of the DoD is that the Acting President issued an executive order against full retaliation. Apparently his reasoning was something like that nuking the world wouldn't do America any good in this situation.

Pyro

Didn't someone already mention that the United States did launch a few successful nuclear attacks on military targets in the USSR?

BlackWave

Pyro said: Didn't someone already mention that the United States did launch a few successful nuclear attacks on military targets in the USSR?

I don't think so--and if someone did, then I think they were misinformed, as that would have the USSR simply wipe us off the map. They weren't big on the whole ethics thing, you know. But then again, those were really-fucked times politically--if you asked someone before if the USSR could pull off a successful invasion, they'd laugh and tell you that only alien space bats or something could do that...

Matt Wiser

OK, guys, here's Chapter IV:

Keegan gives ample criticism to ADVENT CROWN: the first counteroffensive. Many of the divisions in the offensive were newly raised and poorly trained, despite being reasonably well equipped. The 14th Armored Division was highlighted as a case in point. Units got lost, took the wrong objectives (in a few cases, took someone else's objective and not their own), and failed to consolidate what gains they did make. He makes a credible argument that the offensive was launched for political reasons, as those members of Congress from states that were either under partial or complete occupation were clamoring for immediate action, despite the JCS stating it would be at least six more months before the newly raised divisions would be ready for offensive operations. To please Congress, the President overrode the JCS and National Security Advisor, and ordered the attack. Nobody escaped getting burned, and Ivan planned and launched the Spring-Summer '86 offensive earlier than he intended.

He has praise for the air war, though; The AF, Navy, and Marines flew the first year with the wings and squadrons already in the force structure, and those units formed with aircraft out of AMARC were given at least six months' training before being certified as combat-ready. He finally mentioned the 335th TFS, calling us "The Orphans of the Air Force" as we were teamed up with a Marine Air Group for the bulk of the war.

Keegan also mentions the first use of women in combat: many rear-echelon units were attacked by either Soviet or Cuban airborne and SOF, and the female soldiers fought back like lions. That, and the performance of female UH-1, UH-60, and CH-47 pilots made the acting Army Chief of Staff reccommend that the restrictions be done away with Army-wide. The other services quickly followed suit, with the Air Force allowing females in combat cockpits beginning in January '86, the Navy about the same time, but as the USMC had no female pilots prewar, it wasn't until January of '87 before females joined USMC combat squadrons.

trekchu

Matt Wiser said: Nobody escaped getting burned, and Ivan planned and launched the Spring-Summer '86 offensive earlier than he intended.

Which probably helped us in the long run. Had they waited, these five additional Divisions from the USSR would have been nasty to deal with.

Matt Wiser

Quite true: those five divisions could've made the difference in getting to the I-90 line in Wyoming. But they didn't arrive until the offensive had been stopped short of it, and they were used to plug the gap vacated by the Nicaraguans and Mexicans....IIRC one Soviet Air Force pilot that our Intel Officer had a chat with tell us that the Nicaraguans and Mexicans were analogous to the Italians in WW II. "They're glad to be there as long as we're winning, but once battles started getting lost...." I remember one time in New Mexico that one Nicaraguan regiment (leg infantry again) simply gave up to 5th Marine Division along the U.S. 60 in the Sandias: the Regimental CO shot his political officer and simply gave up. These guys had been press-ganged into service, had very little training, and our ALO with 5th MarDiv asked one battalion CO (a Captain) why his unit surrendered without firing a shot, and he replied with basic and sound civilian logic: "We didn't fire back because that would have been a mistake." Too bad that didn't happen everywhere with 'em. When that happened: 3rd ACR and 2nd Brigade, 1st Cav passed thru the Marine lines and didn't stop until Vaughn. Then it slowed down as Cubans and Russians showed up...

Chapter V deals with the air war: The Mann's account of hitting the amphibious force headed to New Orleans made it into Keegan (well done, there), and some of the accounts Lisa and I contributed are there as well. Keegan points out the main Soviet and ComBloc weaknesses in the air, mainly in terms of too much central control, a growing lack of spare parts and munitions given the long supply chain, and the incessant guerilla and SOF action against airfields. Many times, all it took to shut down operations at a ComBloc air base was a mortar round or two, or a couple of insurgents with a machine gun, spraying the base perimeter. Flight ops would shut down while the culprits were hunted, and more often than not, they would get away. He also heaps a lot of criticism on the SAF, pointing out their lack of any kind of strategic bombing campaign in the U.S., and that while some strikes were definitely strategic in nature (hitting the Lockheed Plant in Palmdale, CA, for example) there was little or no sustained strategic air action.

He contrasts that with very effective base security arrangements on the U.S. and Canadian side, singling out the AF Combat Security Police, the Apache Scouts, and the South Africans in the U.S., and the Canadians using the RAF Regiment to guard their own bases until the Canadian AF could get its own external base security force spun up and ready. And very flexible doctrine and tactics in the air. Keegan gives the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F/A-18 high marks as air superiority fighters, letting the AF, Navy, and Marines use their attack assets (A-4s, A-6s, A-7s, Harriers, A-10s, F-111s, F-4s, and even the F-100s and F-105s) to their best advantage. The foreign volunteer squadrons also are mentioned, and the RAF in exile gets its due, with Keegan giving the Tornado, Buccaneer, and Jaguar high marks for their combat performance.

And Keegan gives a well done to SAC: while SAC's bomber force had to keep birds on nuclear alert in case of further use of nuclear weapons, the missions into Siberia and European Russia stand as the longest combat missions ever flown. While SAC paid a price in the early missions (some had over 50% attrition), gaps in Soviet air defenses, and the Voyska PVO (Soviet Air Defense Command) tried to plug those gaps, the continued B-52 missions, and the 1986 arrival of the B-1B, meant that the raids kept up the pressure, and on several occasions, the movement of troops and supplies via the Trans-Siberian and BAM railroads was completely interrupted for a number of days each time, and on at least two occasions, up to two weeks.

sloreck

Getting in to this late so here's my story:

Summer 1984 I had just finished my orthopaedic surgery residency in Baltimore and moved with my wife & 2 boys to Birmingham AL for an advanced fellowship. This timing saved us from the effects of the DC area nuking. I was in the Navy Reserve, and had just done my first drill as battalion surgeon 4/14 HQ'd in the Birmingham area when the feces hit the fan. Within 36 hours I was back on active duty (had been a line officer during Vietnam & used GI bill for med school) and on the move as we got our SP 155's on flat cars and our other gear, and rendezvoused with 2 other batteries of the 14th Marines doing our best to stop the red drive from the south. My wife and kids ended up behind enemy lines when the Sovs & Cubans managed to get to Northern Alabama. I found this out after the war, as once I could not getting working phone lines from where I was to there, mail was long gone - even before the Sovs got there.

I was working almost non-stop for serveral months, Marines, Army, National Guard, guerillas - whoever on our side could make it to where I had my BAS. Even saw a few Sovs and Cubans we caught, treated them too - I take oaths seriously and the Hippocratic is one of them. Got a purple heart myself, piece of shrapnel in the calf that my HMC removed under local - nothing that required me to go offline

Once our battalion had been whittled down to a nub, what was left was pulled off line for reassignment. Since I was a fully qualified orthopaedic surgeon, I was reassigned as such to Alfa Surgical Co., 1st Medical Bn operating in support of the Marines on the west coast. Just before the armistice was assigned as MEB Surgeon for 23rd MEB, embarked on the USS Tarawa scheduled to see how we could f**k over the Sov Navy Port of Petropavlosk on Kamchatchka.

With the armistice we came back to San Diego, I was sitting on the fantail having a cigar, and feeling lucky my ass was still attached, when the Red Cross rep found me. Turns out that 6 months after Birmingham was occupied somebody claimed a reward for turning my family in as "enemies of the people" - so defined because I was in the military fighting the "liberators". All of them were shipped to a camp, where a cholera epidemic took all of them.

I took 3 months compassionate leave, went back to Birmingham to find what momentoes I could. Just before I went back to San Diego a grotesquely mutilated body was found, the coroner said it must have taken him days to die. In his mouth was a bag containing 30 dimes. He was a suspected collaborator, so the cops never looked very hard for whoever did him in.

I decided to stay in the Navy, doing as many assignments with Marines as I could over the next 20+ years. Dedicated myself to the art and science of medicine, and eventually rebuilt a new life. Also dedicated myself to telling my story, to convincing Americans that the Romans were right "si vis pacem, para bellum".

Matt Wiser

Chapter VI of Keegan opens with the end of ADVENT CROWN and the of the ComBloc Spring-Summer Offensive in May '86. This was a three-pronged attack, with the western prong up I-25, the second pushing up from Kansas towards Lincoln, Nebraska, and the third up from Arkansas into Central Missouri. His Russian sources (granted, their information is incomplete due to the incaccessiblity of the Kremlin Archives) say that the Soviet General Staff urged a single thrust to cut the U.S. in half, and force a peace settlement on the ComBloc's terms. However, the General Secretary and the rest of the Defense Council didn't see things that way, and had the Defense Minister come up with the plan actually implemented. It dispersed resources (counter to prewar Soviet doctrine), made sure that the defenders, with good interior lines of communication, could respond and react as things developed, and pulling VDV and Spetsnatz units off of COIN operations to support the offensive only made the guerilla war much more effective, as many of the guerilla hunters were busy elsewhere. The central thrust literally ran out of gas short of Lincoln, allowing the defenders (VII Corps) to counterattack and push the 9th Guards Army and parts of 5th Guards Tank Army back across the border, minus much of their armor and heavy equipment-left behind for lack of fuel. The eastern thrust into Missouri ran into the Ozarks, where behind every bush was either a GI or a guerilla with an anti-tank rocket (or so it seemed), and while the offensive got within artillery range of St. Louis, the terrain and guerilla activity tearing up the supply lines made sure the offensive ran out of steam. The I-25 thrust came the closest, as some Soviet units got within sight of the I-90, only to have V Corps halt them and push them back, out of artillery range. The Soviets and Cubans fell back to Casper, and the unpleasantness that followed....still, Keegan does quote the Duke of Wellington: "It was a close-run thing."

How'd those of you who were around then celebrate the Fourth of July in Wartime? Despite being at war, with a good chunk of the Midwest and Alaska under enemy occupation, people found ways to celebrate. I know Army and Marine units fired off "artillery salutes" at the enemy to mark the day, and many communities made it a point to invite military personnel to local celebrations-fireworks displays, bar-b-ques, etc. Mostly it was a normal day, but in the evenings, you did mark Independence Day in one form or another. Each year, the ordies in the 335th TFS would paint bombs red, white, and blue for us to deliver on the bad guys, and we took pride in doing so.

Of course, the ComBloc severely frowned upon celebrating the holiday in occupied territory. If someone got caught doing anything construed as celebrating Independence Day, one was lucky if you were shot. The unlucky ones got tossed into a labor camp for the duration.

BlackWave

Matt Wiser said: How'd those of you who were around then celebrate the Fourth of July in Wartime? Despite being at war, with a good chunk of the Midwest and Alaska under enemy occupation, people found ways to celebrate. I know Army and Marine units fired off "artillery salutes" at the enemy to mark the day, and many communities made it a point to invite military personnel to local celebrations-fireworks displays, bar-b-ques, etc. Mostly it was a normal day, but in the evenings, you did mark Independence Day in one form or another. Each year, the ordies in the 335th TFS would paint bombs red, white, and blue for us to deliver on the bad guys, and we took pride in doing so.

Of course, the ComBloc severely frowned upon celebrating the holiday in occupied territory. If someone got caught doing anything construed as celebrating Independence Day, one was lucky if you were shot. The unlucky ones got tossed into a labor camp for the duration.

The usual sort of thing, but most July 4th celebrations were much more restrained, especially with all the shortages and panic going on. The fact that we were getting hammered on many fronts soured the mood a lot. I do know that in some places people just used it as an excuse to outright riot. Perhaps in some remote areas it was all smiles, but the war and the mess that followed cast a shadow over everything. I do remember being in a town where even steak was in short supply. Things did get better as the tide turned over to us, but most people were too busy trying to pull themselves together post-war to think about it.

Panzerfaust 150

Yeah...we watched 7th Corps Arty blow the snot out of the Soviet FLOT a couple of 4th of Julys...nothing like watching an entire corps execute a fire mission on a bunch of Sovs with nowhere to go...

As for parties...well, we REMFs managed to procure an item or two from captured Combloc..and they'd usually stolen it from us during the invasion in the first place...I'll never forget the time some armor battalion captured a tractor-trailer with enough frozen beef to feed an army...well, it did..us. They pretty much invited everybody within HMMWV distance to come help eat the stuff...this was not long before Brownsville threw in the towel so the Soviets were VERY low on ammo, there was hardly any counter-battery or AAA/SAM fire coming from their perimeter anymore.

The hit was being perched up on an M-1 with a fairly cute nurse from some CASH watching the corps arty give Ivan his 4th of July "gift"....and then watching the AF make it's own contribution...watching an AC-130 work over the center of Brownsville was nothing short of awesome...and scary.

As for the nurse...we didn't work out...it was a fling for both of us...

Matt Wiser

Spectres did good work, once the air defense threat was neutralized. They also did a lot of counter-SOF ops.

A one-night stand with a nurse....lot of that went around.

Panzerfaust, have you had your interview at the Air War College yet? And how's your view of Keegan developing? I'm not finished yet with Chapter VII-the first successful counteroffensive and the Battle of Wichita.

[lordroel]

From page 33

jacobus

Which enemy countries had troops fighting on American soil, besides the Soviets, Cubans, Nicaraguans and Mexicans? Did any Americans fight for the Communist side? If so, how many?

BlackWave

jacobus said: Which enemy countries had troops fighting on American soil, besides the Soviets, Cubans, Nicaraguans and Mexicans? Did any Americans fight for the Communist side? If so, how many?

It's not clear, to be honest, given how many occupied towns were razed in the Soviet scorched Earth policy. Estimates range greatly.

trekchu

DoD apparently estimates something of about one Divisions worth overall, not counting the auxilliaries. BTW, has anyone heard of that new book about the so-called "American Liberation Army"? I cant remember the name for the blive of me.

BlackWave

I think it's 'Stained Stars and Stripes'. I think I know what you're talking about, but apparently according to everyone I know it takes great liberties with accuracy.

trekchu

Yup, that's the one.

As said though, these are guesstimate figures straight out of the DoD grapevine. You wouldn't think what you can hear in the cafeteria there.

Panzerfaust 150

I am supposed to go down there next week...seems they're sending a VC-20 to the local air park to come get me. Wow...from lowly Staff Sergeant to this! I have come up in the world....

Anyhoo...I like Keegan and I think his comments are well placed...He's right about Casper...my wife was with 1st AD (part of VII Corps) and she said it was a goddamn "shootout with Ivan inside a phone booth" for most of the battle...both sides dropped their arty into the middle of a swirling battle some 10-12 klicks north of Casper...and what broke Ivan was both a logistical breakdown...and 11th ACR managing to break contact and counter attack against the base of Ivan's penetration along I-25 near Douglas. Damn near pocketed Ivan, but Delgado's division (yes, the one that sacked Casper) managed to get it's shit together fast enough to hold open the way south for Ivan to retreat, Delgado's division DIPed though, but they mauled the hell out of 35th ID from Kansas...As for the retreat..it was pell-mell and resembled the German retreat from Moratain-Falaise...it was a goddamn turkey shoot for the AF..and I-25 from Caspar to the Colorado state line was just one long graveyard for the Combloc..she's told me she saw horse drawn carriages in some cases...it was a damn mess.

I think Keegan got it right and he may understate matters a mite...though I attribute that to the typical British actions along those lines.

trekchu

Have a lookout for a Colonel Calahan, US Army while you are there, tell him *made up name* sent you and he will help you while there. Also tell him he still owes me mony from our last poker game.

Matt Wiser

I didn't fly at Casper, but I know guys in 419 who did, just before they went to Washington State to turn in their old F-105s for F-4s. It was a free-for-all, especially once the SAM threat had been taken out (mainly because the bad guys shot off all their missiles and there weren't any reloads coming). One pass with 750-pounders and a second pass with 20-mm Vulcan was their usual. The Colorado Air Guard had fled Denver for Hill in the meantime, and their A-7s were also pretty busy there, and some Navy A-7s (reserves from California, I think) were over that part of Wyoming as well. Your wife's comparison to Falaise is a good one; I've seen the pics of the aftermath when I was as the Air War College. One of my classmates flew F-16s in the 388th TFW out of Hill, and he said that even in a fighter cockpit at 15,000 feet, you could smell it. If Panzerfaust's wife saw F-105s doing bomb and gun runs at Casper, that was 419th TFW, and the F-105's next-to-last fight. (the amphib fiasco at Seattle was their final combat)

A C-20 Gulfstream is a big deal. They don't fly those around for just anyone. Consider yourself honored...and there's probably a suite in the VIP lodgings at Maxwell with your name on it for a few days, too.

I've seen that Stained Stars and Stripes at the Borders in Ogden, near Hill AFB. The author does stretch accuracy quite a bit. I do remember the near riots in an EPW compound next to Cannon AFB after III Corps retook the place, and Panzerfaust has mentioned some as well; seems the "auxiliaries" and the regular ComBloc didn't get along well, let alone with each other! It's been said by some that most of those in that "American Liberation Army" were either press-ganged, or joined when given a choice of either a labor camp or the ALA. Many, of course, deserted the first chance they got, and at least in III Corps, weren't treated as traitors or EPWs, though the Army's counterintelligence people and the AF OSI, not to mention the FBI, took time to have a long chat with them. However, like the auxiliaries, there were those who were committed true believers, and those who weren't KIA'd wound up paying the price-either on the gallows or in Federal Prison: many are still there. Some did wind up victims of prison "justice" at the hands of other cons....Anyone here run into 'em, either on the battlefield or afterwards? Chances are, I probably bombed 'em a few times...

BlackWave

I remember running into a few of them when I was going through the ruins of a town in the Midwest somewhere, and took the opportunity to do some interviews. A few were genuine believers, a few more were conscripts, but worringly a few simply shouted slogans in my face in a monotone, and rarely showed any emotion. Then again, there were countless people all over the country that were and still are to this day traumatized by all the destruction, so it may not be what the implications suggest.

RadishPumpkinsForever

I had always been good with languages, even had studyed in Tokyo. Fluent in Mandarin and Cantonese the State Department recruited me to help liason with our new Chinese Allies. I was first given a posting in Funjin province with the Peoples Army and some of our advisors. I saw quite a bit of action. I have to say thought to most Americans these boys aer just 800 million screamin Chinamen but to me they are freinds.

Matt Wiser

First time we've had anyone on the thread who was in the Far East. Just how bad was it in the PRC? The Soviets didn't just hit the PRC's nuclear forces, but struck Beijing, Shanghai, Wuhan, Nanjing, and about a dozen other major cities, before sending in troops to Manchuria. ISTR some reports of not just strategic nuclear use, but some tac nukes and chemical weapons, as well. The Air War College did mention some of what happened in the PRC, but not much is known in the West, the accounts of those who escaped to Hong Kong or Macao notwithstanding.

jacobus

I wonder what happened to Mexico after the end of the war. Did we seek to punish Mexico for helping the Soviets? Or was the pro-Soviet regime in Mexico City and its invasion of our country something that most of the Mexican people opposed? If so, it would be unfair to take reparations from the blameless people of Mexico, in my opinion. But in any case, the leaders who made war on us should be made to pay for their aggression. And that goes for Cuba and Nicaragua as well.

Matt Wiser

That is a very good question. We're still technically at war with Mexico, Cuba, and the rump USSR, so forget about traveling to any of those countries anytime soon. Baja, as previously mentioned, is now a de facto U.S. state, and will probably become one before too long. (Don't be surprised if the two Baja legislatures (North and South) petition to be admitted to the Union as one state....) There still is some insurgent activity in Mexico directed against the government, which is still pretty pro-Soviet and Pro-Castro, but as far as being stable, well.. let's just say that before the cease-fire, the oil fields south of the Rio Grande had multiple visits from B-52s, and they've had considerable difficulty in getting them operational again. If they had oil money, the Mexicans would be more of a problem than they are now-to the point where invasion and removal of the current regime would likely be a major topic of discussion in and out of the U.S. Government. No oil revenue means no well-equipped military, and also with the current government, very little tourism (the lefties who've gone to Mexico City are either fugitives from justice or are voluntary exiles because they've been run out of the U.S. or Canada). Any kind of peace treaty is out of the question right now, and the same goes for Cuba: as long as Fidel and his brother run things in Havana, forget it. They still won't admit to losing the war, and haven't lived up fully to their cease-fire obligations-20 years later. And Havana has its own leftie community, too (may they all go to hell, wherever they're hiding).

Nicaragua had a coup that tossed out the pro-Soviet government about three years after the cease-fire, and similar "turnovers in government" happened in El Salvador and Honduras. Relations with them are pretty good at the moment. Costa Rica never did fall to the Red tide, and it was there that the POW exchange with the Cubans took place. Panama was virtually an armed camp with the U.S. Army, Navy, and Air Force keeping the Canal open, despite numerous attempts to block or sabotage it. It still is today. (the '77 Canal Treaty was renegotiated postwar to allow for a U.S. military presence after the handover)

TheMann

jacobus said: Which enemy countries had troops fighting on American soil, besides the Soviets, Cubans, Nicaraguans and Mexicans? Did any Americans fight for the Communist side? If so, how many?

Libya and Angola had air force guys, but they were beyond terrible. Beyond that I don't know. I was just a Hornet driver, so I don't know about the ground troops.

Sloreck - I'm sorry about your family, dude. I know far too many who lost families simply because they were fighting, or even just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Were you on Tarawa when that Harrier rocket went off early? You might know my sister, then-LTJG Jessica Faulkner, who got a Navy Cross for pulling a pilot out of a wrecked Harrier on Tarawa's deck. She's still got a big scar on the side of her head doing that.

Matt Wiser

The Mann: have you been following Keegan? He mentioned you by call sign when the botched amphib operation against New Orleans was treated in Chapter V. He calls the air side of it "akin to sharks at a feeding frenzy" because there were so many aircraft going in on the convoy that midar collisions were more of a threat than SAMs or AAA. And the bubbleheads (sub guys) felt cheated as the two SSNs that arrived were too late to do much except sink a couple of cripples and a straggler trying to head back to Havana....

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Chapter V deals with the air war: The Mann's account of hitting the amphibious force headed to New Orleans made it into Keegan (well done, there), and some of the accounts Lisa and I contributed are there as well.

I spoke to Keegan personally about it. It was a big deal for us, knowing that the bastards were gonna try and drop forces in the Big Easy to try and get the advantage. They were pretty much lunch meat for the 12th Armored and the Louisiana NG by they landed, though, and their attempts at covering the fleet were beyond useless. They couldn't spare one of the big carriers with so many USN warships in the area, so all they was the Kievs and air support from Cuba. The Russian carriers were useless - the Yak-38 could hardly haul anything off the ground under its own power - and as a result the force just got the shit bombed out of it. As they got closer to New Orleans, USS Alabama and a handful of frigates in the area opened up on 'em, too. Any artillery the Soviets did manage to land usually got blown to itty bitty pieces by Alabama's big 16s, and the forces they did land, of course, got chewed up. Alabama, unfortunately, got a torp in the screws trying to hunt what was left of the bastards, and spent a year and a half in dry-dock in New Orleans.

Matt Wiser said: Keegan points out the main Soviet and ComBloc weaknesses in the air, mainly in terms of too much central control, a growing lack of spare parts and munitions given the long supply chain, and the incessant guerilla and SOF action against airfields. Many times, all it took to shut down operations at a ComBloc air base was a mortar round or two, or a couple of insurgents with a machine gun, spraying the base perimeter. Flight ops would shut down while the culprits were hunted, and more often than not, they would get away.

Which seemed to be in total contrast to us. They often hit air bases with a lot more firepower than mortars or guerillas with machine guns, and we just kept right on flying right through it. That was usually of course because if the Security Police didn't manage to stop the intruders (and their Humvees and MUTTs, armed with missile launchers, usually did) they usually found one of the South African units behind, and those Rooikat AFVs they had would tank anything this side of a T-62 without much in the way of trouble.

Matt Wiser said: He also heaps a lot of criticism on the SAF, pointing out their lack of any kind of strategic bombing campaign in the U.S., and that while some strikes were definitely strategic in nature (hitting the Lockheed Plant in Palmdale, CA, for example) there was little or no sustained strategic air action.

They seemed to be focusing more, at least in my estimation, in trying to shut down airfields and combat power. That's why my unit kept seeing those damned Backfires and Blackjacks over the CONUS. They made a psychological impact - at first, by the time a year was passed we just looked at them as fresh meat - but not much more than that. We had expected them to use the bomber fleet as much as possible for carpet bombing factories, but that didn't happen often - or if they did, they screwed up. The Detroit incident proved that, when a SAF Tu-95 apparently mistook a warehouse complex and train yard for the Detroit Arsenal. Missed it by miles, and did little more than level some empty buildings.

Matt Wiser said: He contrasts that with very effective base security arrangements on the U.S. and Canadian side, singling out the AF Combat Security Police, the Apache Scouts, and the South Africans in the U.S., and the Canadians using the RAF Regiment to guard their own bases until the Canadian AF could get its own external base security force spun up and ready.

See the above comments about our base security. Dumb fools forgot how good our anti-tank missiles were, and then found out what the Rooikats and their 76mm guns did to APCs. Whoops. :cool:

Matt Wiser said: And very flexible doctrine and tactics in the air. Keegan gives the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F/A-18 high marks as air superiority fighters, letting the AF, Navy, and Marines use their attack assets (A-4s, A-6s, A-7s, Harriers, A-10s, F-111s, F-4s, and even the F-100s and F-105s) to their best advantage. The foreign volunteer squadrons also are mentioned, and the RAF in exile gets its due, with Keegan giving the Tornado, Buccaneer, and Jaguar high marks for their combat performance.

The Hornet drivers when the ground attack guys were in the area usually had the goal of just clearing the way in and out. We liked that, because we got play fighter plane rather than attacking guys in the mud, which is always more enjoyable for fighter pilots, as I'm sure Matt can attest to. The F/A-18 and F-16 were great agile fighters, which is why we liked 'em despite the Eagle and Tomcat drivers talking about how we were second-class pilots because of the smaller planes. (Those bozos usually forgot that one of the highest scoring pilots of the war, Major Jason Tyralis, was an F-16 driver and has 41 confirmed kills.) Even my own brother, who was a Tomcat driver, commented on that. The Tomcat and Eagle were usually faster out of the box than the Falcon or Hornet, but that didn't mean much if the bastard is right in front of you.

I knew of Thunderchiefs flying for the USAF, but Super Sabres? Geez, I figured those were all scrap long before the war.

And yeah, the many different planes flown by our brothers and sisters from around the world - Tornados, Jaguars, Buccs, the various Mirages, Lightnings - did well, too. I have fond memories of one of the SAAF units that flew with us in Florida. Mirage F1s, which were diminutive compared to the F-4s we had, but these dudes flew 'em like they wanted to destroy 'em. They pioneered the idea of blasting right along the water surface to get behind the Cuban MiGs, then pop up behind them. They always did it better than us too - the Phantom drivers usually kept at least 75 feet between them and the water, but the Mirage drivers usually got close enough that srap from the ocean got on their canopies. :eek:

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: The Mann: have you been following Keegan? He mentioned you by call sign when the botched amphib operation against New Orleans was treated in Chapter V. He calls the air side of it "akin to sharks at a feeding frenzy" because there were so many aircraft going in on the convoy that midar collisions were more of a threat than SAMs or AAA. And the bubbleheads (sub guys) felt cheated as the two SSNs that arrived were too late to do much except sink a couple of cripples and a straggler trying to head back to Havana....

Yep, I followed that, his remarks about the F-4 with the callsign "superbird". The Marines had eight full squadrons going in on that one, and the air force sent a bunch of F-111s to finish off whatever we didn't get. The bubbleheads shouldn't get mad - if they wanted it, why didn't they go get it as we were hammering on the force? What, were they wanting us to wait until they landed, or what? Shit or get off the pot, I'd say.

BlackWave

I'm afraid that Keegan was talking out of his ass regarding strategic bombing. This wasn't advertised during the war and was twisted for propaganda purposes, and most history books follow up on this, but plenty of towns, dumps and supply conduits were smashed in the early part of the war. Their campaign against our airfields was also much more successful than the books would have you believe--if you study the numbers for munitions and fuel, you'll notice that the guys in the top were begging for the stuff to replace what was lost in their raids. Furthermore, they did wipe out almost every factory in the midwest, which is why to this day the total lack of heavy industry in that region is another contributing factor to the poverty rampant there. After much research and study, I can safely say that the Soviets were more successful there than our books--and quite frankly, the bulk of our 'history' books are drawn from propaganda-tinted sources--and as for our airfields...well, that's another reason why by the end of the war SAC had lost 91.2% of its total strength. We got our asses kicked so hard in the war that too this day we haven't recovered properly--understandably, the books would have us forget that. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, considering how badly the invasion affected national morale.

TheMann

BlackWave, with all respect bud, I know for a fact that the Soviets bombers focused more on attacking stuff on the front lines and not strategic targets. I know that because I saw it, and while I never shot down a bomber many five pilots from my squadron did. The campaigns against airfields were spotty at best - they tried and failed repeatedly to shut down the airbases I was based at, both in Florida and the Midwest.

SAC's losses early on were replaced fairly quickly too, especially after the Soviet attempt to take Seattle and the Boeing plants fell flat on its face. The SAC is now up to 75% of its pre-war strength, and virtually all of it is in B-1s and B-52H and B-52J models.

I think you're over-estimating the amount of damage they did. We got them considerably worse than they got us, fact, and while we lost a lot, they lost far more.

BlackWave

TheMann said: with all respect bud, I know for a fact that the Soviets bombers focused more on attacking stuff on the front lines and not strategic targets. I know that because I saw it, and while I never shot down a bomber many five pilots from my squadron did. The campaigns against airfields were spotty at best - they tried and failed repeatedly to shut down the airbases I was based at, both in Florida and the Midwest.

SAC's losses early on were replaced fairly quickly too, especially after the Soviet attempt to take Seattle and the Boeing plants fell flat on its face. The SAC is now up to 75% of its pre-war strength, and virtually all of it is in B-1s and B-52H and B-52J models.

I think you're over-estimating the amount of damage they did. We got them considerably worse than they got us, fact, and while we lost a lot, they lost far more.

They did focus more on the front, but my point is that they did attack strategic targets to a higher degree than some think--I should know, because I saw the results. As the war went on, this dimished. And while SAC did manage to get round the losses, after reading interviews with aircraft plant techs, and general statistics, the aircraft made were of a lower quality than nominal--though they did their job well. And as for over-estimation of damage...well, most under-estimate the damage they do. Trust me, having done a load of research, interviews, and reading, I can safely stand by my statement. Furthermore, given the fact that new evidence is being uncovered that a lot of mock decoy targets were set up in Siberia to divert SAC, the 'losses' we dealt to them might not be a severe as we think. But we'll never know for certain, considering how little we know of Russia's state then and now.

[lordroel]

From page 34

Panzerfaust 150

Blackwave,
I was intell during the war...and I worked the Tier I and II trials after, I've seen documents that will never see the light of day! With all due respect, guess what...we never saw a lot of the evidence you're citing. The SAF was rank amateurs in the strategic bombing category...and their target base was well, to put it kindly...nonsensical. They'd bomb Hollywierd one day, then Silicon Valley the next..there was no sustained campaign against a specific target base. They did most of their attacks with standoff cruise missiles (AS-4 and the like) and their BDA was often RORSATs or other items...the one time they did a raid against Seattle, the air defenses cut them to pieces...and to make matters worse...Boeing had buried most of it's dies and molds anyhow, so the Sovs were bombing empty buildings...and to make matters worse? The factory workers lit smoke pots to fool with visuals and FLIR from the satellites to make it look worse than it was.

But that's one example, the poverty you quote in the Midwest is from the occupied areas where the ComBloc forces stole everything that wasn't nailed down. The Combloc was SUPPOSED to pay for all that, in hard currency, as part of the cease-fire...other than from the new government of Nicaragua and the Russian Republic...and the other republics, as well as those Warsaw Pact nations that did participate...we have yet to see much. One GAO estimate was that 20% of the war reparations debt has actually been paid...wanna guess who owes the other 80%?

To make matters worse, there's simply a ton of rebuilding priorities right now. Somebody's gonna get short straw. Wanna guess who took it in the shorts first? The occupied regions because their representitves in Congress were for the most part dead, missing or on the run...the ones in DC were too small a bloc to get their share of the dollars...shameful, but true.

BlackWave

Never said it was just factories--trains stations, power plants, water plants, all kinds of infrastructures went up. I saw the ruins of a lot of these, and just doing some research on google will confirm this. I too have seen documents and interviewed high-ranking officers who, while they also say that the Soviet bombing campaign was erratic, they did hit very hard on a number of instances. I saw the results of some of these first hand on civilian targets; I suppose they were better at reducing places to rubble than precision strikes, but that did cause demoralization, even if it didn't hamper our actual forces as they hoped. And besides, after studying reports from bomber crews and various pictures, many prolific experts believe that the Soviets also tried a lot of the tricks we did to screw up their bombing campaign, like I said earlier--however, nobody can really confirm how successful this was, as I said. We have extremely sketchy knowledge on Russia's exact state at best, and this has been so since the end of the war, considering how the CIA was almost totally depleted--but it's pretty much certain that it's not too good. As for poverty, Hawaii and some parts of the East coast are also abysmal, but yes, it's worst in the former occupation zones of the Midwest.

Matt Wiser

Boeing kept some of the plants going: the one at Boeing Field in Seattle did a lot of B-52 work (refurbishing Ds and doing battle-damage repairs on Gs and Hs), and they were pretty well defended (a Marine Reserve I-HAWK battery and the 318th FIS down at McChord) from air attack. That failed attempt at bullying down Puget Sound to try an amphib landing was a disaster, period. My Wing Director of Operations (a Colonel now, but a Capt. then) flew in that in one of the F-105's last sorties, and he has stories from that you wouldn't believe. This was another case of water running red (pardon the pun) with blood, ships sinking, and Soviet survivors getting to shore and in many cases being lynched. The Navy and Coast Guard had a lot to do, picking up survivors so that Naval Intelligence could have a few words with them.

Remember the F-100s stored at AMARC? It didn't take long to get those dusted off and refurbished, and some ANG pilots who had had F-100 experience wound up being instructors getting new guys and gals certified on the Hun. Ditto for the F-105s: the last ones to fly combat were in 1988: F-105G Wild Weasels.

The Soviets had very little strategic bombing experience or doctrine: one WW II study of SAF operations had only 5% of their bombing sorties dedicated to strategic strikes. No wonder they failed, utterly. As for SAC, let's just say that at the Air War College, we found that SAC HQ (March AFB, CA) knew within 24 hours of a Siberia mission if they had hit real targets or not. Generally, if there were more than two planes on a strike, BDA from crews counted a lot. If there were lots of secondaries, or photos from B-52 strike cameras showed a bridge down or a rail line massively cut, Ivan's "maskriaova" failed. And photo interpeters could often see thru the camo and direct a follow-on strike to hit whatever was underneath the netting or whatever they were using to hide a target. And it was pretty hard to hide a rail yard or an oil refinery anyway.

BlackWave

Matt Wiser said: The Soviets had very little strategic bombing experience or doctrine: one WW II study of SAF operations had only 5% of their bombing sorties dedicated to strategic strikes. No wonder they failed, utterly. As for SAC, let's just say that at the Air War College, we found that SAC HQ (March AFB, CA) knew within 24 hours of a Siberia mission if they had hit real targets or not. Generally, if there were more than two planes on a strike, BDA from crews counted a lot. If there were lots of secondaries, or photos from B-52 strike cameras showed a bridge down or a rail line massively cut, Ivan's "maskriaova" failed. And photo interpeters could often see thru the camo and direct a follow-on strike to hit whatever was underneath the netting or whatever they were using to hide a target. And it was pretty hard to hide a rail yard or an oil refinery anyway.

I wouldn't be so confident. Bearing in mind that there are air force personnel and analysts who are doubtful on the success of a number of missions, in which the equipment on the plane was damaged in mission or broken to begin with, and lousy weather conditions in some of the later seasons didn't help--plus all kinds of other circumstances. Read chapter VI of 'Blue Eagles' by Maxwell--he used to work at the academy, uses reliable sources well, and he discusses this--while he's a bit neutral, it is enlightening. I actually recommend that book as a whole for anyone into the air force--another flyboy vet like you also liked it, and it stands out among some of the other junk out there.

Matt Wiser

I've read the book, and in most places, I do agree with him. The Siberia raids, though, I would "agree to disagree." There were plenty of targets that Ivan just couldn't hide, and even if there was camo on a target, one bombed by radar or using the INS-case in point was the Sukhoi factory in Irkutsk:even though the factory was camo'd, prewar satellite pics showed the crews where it was in relation to the runway. Four B-52Ds showed up one night and made sure the night shift didn't need relief...108 Mark-82s each Buff saw to that. Ditto for the Mil Factory in Ulan-Ude and the Su-25 plant also in Ulan-Ude...if one knew where the factory was on the imagery, you could get bombs on target reasonably well using radar or dropping via INS.

Talk about a fireworks show...ammo ships would provide a good one. Fourth of July '87 in Texas, my flight of four F-4s laid down Mark-82s on a fuel dump between Wichita Falls and Fort Worth...lots of fireballs on that one. Talk about a fireworks show and a barbque....

Colonel Cindy Moreau (currently 93rd Bomb Wing CO at Castle AFB) flew many Eastern Siberia missions, in both the right seat as copilot, and in the left seat as aircraft commander. Many times, she says, "you could feel the secondaries after bomb release." Especially if the target was something like an oil refinery and associated fuel storage, or a rail yard (Irkutsk, Ulan-Ude, and Chita were frequent targets on these strikes). Several times, her B-52 carried GBU-15s to use on bridges, and one time on a hydro dam. Unable to guide the bombs the whole way, they usually did L&L (Lock and Launch), as they had no datalink pod (which F-111Fs carried, and F-15Es carry now). And The Mann: one of LeMay's last public appearances before he passed on was to give Moreau a DFC for a Siberia mission that she led. She told me that LeMay said to her, "we could've used you in the Eighth Air Force over Germany, or in the 21st Bomber Command over Tokyo." High praise, indeed, from a former CINC-SAC and AF Chief of Staff.

Somebody asked about who else we were fighting besides the Russians, Cubans, Nicaraguans, and Mexicans; In the air and on the ground we faced East Germans, Libyans, Angolans (both described by Soviet EPWs as "worse than useless."), Czechs, Poles, and North Koreans. The only non-Soviet or Cuban plane I nailed was a Libyan MiG-25P interceptor on takeoff from Cannon AFB about a week before we retook the place. He never saw me, and ate a pair of AIM-9Ls in those big Turmansky engines. That was #8 in the logbook. The wreck's on display at the Clovis (NM) war memorial.

The Mann: yep, any self-respecting fighter pilot wants to go air-to-air full time, instead of play in the mud, though try telling that to the A-10 people. They look at you as if you're from another planet. My squadron, 335th TFS, was primarily tasked with CAS and BAI, but that didn't mean that we never tangled air-to-air: 12 confirmed kills in my logbook, and three probables I hope to confirm later when I'm down in New Mexico and Colorado. We had a total of seven ace Pilot/WSO teams, and several individual pilots and WSOs who made ace as well. One girl WSO made ace flying with four different pilots (she had 7 kills total), which I think is some kind of record. She's an instructor WSO with the F-15E Replacement Training Unit (405th TFTW) at Luke AFB, last I heard. We also had one team get shot down four times, and each time they came back to get back into the fight.

Only SAF bombers I ever saw were on the ground-while bombing them. I mentioned a while back nailing some Bears at Reese AFB, and there was one other time, back around the Battle of Wichita: the old Clinton-Sherman AFB in OK was being used by the bad guys as an air base, and we drew the mission, out of Cannon. Eight of us, with either a Mark-82/M-117 mix (500 and 750-pounders), or a dozen Rockeye CBUs. I led the second flight with Rockeyes, and lo and behold, there were four Tu-22M Backfires sitting on the ramp, along with an Il-76 and two An-22 transports. VMFA-235's F-4S guys did the MiGCAP, and made sure the MiG-23s didn't bother us as we did our stuff. One pass and that was it. One Marine F-4 didn't come back, but all eight of us did, and the RF-4C that came behind us said that all grounded aircraft looked like total losses, and the pics confirmed it.

Panzerfaust: does your wife recall seeing any F-105s doing bomb and gun runs at Casper? If she did, that was the AF Reserve outfit I run now, the 419th TFW. She's welcome at Hill anytime to give the Army's side of the story.

Anyone see this week's issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology? The AF had a bombshell: SR-71 overflights of the Soviet Far East and Siberia during the war, out of Okinawa. That's the first time they've admitted to Blackbird missions over the USSR proper, ever. And there was some SR-71 imagery released: the submarine shipyard at Komsomolsk-na-Amur and the adjacent Su-27 factory, Vladivostok's naval facilities, and an "after" pic of the Irkutsk Oil Refinery after a pair of Buffs and Bones paid an overnight visit in "Spring 1987."

sloreck

I speak very good French & German, passable Spanish especially medical. We had plenty of folks whose Spanish was better than mine when my medical unit (Alpha Surgical,1st FSSG) had latino EPWS. This was in between the start of the war when I was Bn Surgeon 4/14 when we got called up & going as 23rd MEB Surgeon on the Tarawa later. Anyway, we got a few East Germans come through our medical unit & I was usually involved in their care because of my German. Our "Ossies" were some aircrew who got to test their parachutes courtesy of the zoomies, even had a few ground types who were "advisors" in some of the less reliable/competent Sov ally units.

The aircrew were fairly reasonable, the "advisors" were a combination of hard core commies and having huge contempt for the "socialist fraternal" allies they were advising. FYI most of the "third world" allies the Sovs had were scared shitless they'd be shot or allowed to die of wounds without care - per their political indoctrination. when we took good care of them they were usually so thankful the intel guys could not write fast enough to get the info they volunteered.

We had some contact with Libyans, a Libyan Col EPW came in with a gunshot wound near the groin, actually missed everything important. He was hard core, and would answer no questions - until one of the HMs whispered to him that I was Jewish and the next surgeon up - and that it was known that I had castrated some Arab EPWs while in the OR & wrote it off as necessary surgery. Guy turned white as a ghost & offered to talk if they would assign somone else to fix him. I made sure that HM got a meritorious promotion for that, and one of my precious cigars when we got our next relax time. Wouldn't have done it of course, however tempting it might have been, but thats the problem with feeding your people horror stories...scared from the get go. Of course you all know about the Sov rumors about the "requirements" to become a Marine.

TheMann

sloreck said: Mann:
I was on the Tarawa when we hit Petropavlosk as the MEB Surgeon (was a CDR by then). Got to get feet dry as went ashore with later waves, and was one of the last to leave with the final wounded being evac'd back to the ships. You remember the story about Patton pissing in the Rhine during WWII? Well - a bunch of us went in to the office of the senior politruk (political officer) of the base (said so right on the froint door) after the intel guys had cleaned out files. We left a large combined "deposit" on the very nice desk, with a sign that said (in English and Russian) "A token of our esteem from the 23rd MEB/USMC-USN" - we took photos but were advised not to publicize them.

I bet that was fun, indeed. I wish somebody woulda pissed on the buggers. Oh well, though. That raid said to the Commies that "We can hit you, and we WILL hit you."

sloreck said: As far as your sister, I was the guy who sewed her up - sorry about the scar but we were real busy and could not do a "Hollywood" job. It can still be revised, but I imagine she wears it as a badge of honor - it is, cause I've treated lots of burns & repect the balls of anyone who runs in to a fire.

She isn't unhappy about the scar, and I'm not either - she's alive, that's what matters. And like you guys, she was too probably too busy to give a rat's ass what she looked like. To her, it is a badge of honor. She told me that one time after the war some guy trying to pick her up asked her whether the scar was the result of some kink game. She told the guy about how she got the scar, and said "If you want a Farrah Fawcett, go pick up somebody else." I don't think she ever heard from him again. She does wear her Navy Cross every once in a while.

sloreck said: Thanks about the family, I say Yarzheit for them on the 4th of July cause I don't know the day they died - so I decided that was the best day to do it.

Indeed, may they rest in peace, and may the people who killed them (if any) rot in hell. I was lucky enough to not lose any of my immediate family - though me and my two siblings were all on the front lines the whole war, bro and I both made ace - and dad spent the war making and repairing (and in one case, flying) BUFFs from Seattle. I am proud of my service, though I will never forget much of what I saw, even as a fighter jockey. I imagine that the guys fighting in the mud saw much more than I did.

sloreck said: To whoever talked about 4th of July celebrations - was heloed from the Tarawa to one of the cruisers to deal with a medical emergency, was onboard when the cruiser & a frigate took off to intercept a Sov merchie. She tried to run & must have been carrying big time ammo because the 4th round that hit her - KABOOM. Best 4th of July event I ever saw. Actually got 2 sailors out of the water, one died right away we saved the 2nd in spite of >50% burns, think he opted for non-repat after the war.

Ammo ships and oil tankers were always fun to watch go up when you bombed one. I got a couple of both during the failed attack on the Big Easy and doing convoy raiding out of Florida. Ammo ships made for huge kabooms, usually bad enough that when one up, they guys on nearby Navy ships all raced inside so that they didn't get concussions or hearing damage from the explosions.

I've heard that most of those merchies were civilians forced to drive their ships into harm's way, and by my estimation if some military bozo made me walk into what was effectively a suicide mission, after the war I'd have refused repatriation, too.

trekchu

I never was on Tarawa, but The Man, I think I may have run into your sister when we were camped out on the east coast after the war, prior to me leaving the Army. Was she possibly flying out of somewhere in Virginia at that time?

Panzerfaust 150

Hey sloreck...shoulda mentioned you do circumcisions on the side!.... Good to see fellow members of the tribe...though I don't get to synagogue as much as I should...and my wife gets downright mad about that sometimes. I wonder how many of us in the states are left after Ivan hit NYC....

As for my wife, I asked her if she saw any thuds..aircraft recog isn't her strong suit...but she remembered them..big, loud and real accurate with the ordinance. She said the AF and Navy really came through during the counterattack down I-25..but that while Ivan was hauling ass like he'd been caught robbing a liquor store, their rear guards were ferocious...especially after they got to the CO state line. And yeah trek, she was involved in the retaking of Denver..she never made it into the city proper...1st AD flanked to the east and took DIA and Commerce City, and then drove down to cut Route 40 and trap the Combloc between the defenders of Denver and VII Corps...wasn't the final fight somewhere in the Adams-Aurora area?

TheMann

trekchu said: ↑
I never was on Tarawa, but The Man, I think I may have run into your sister when we were camped out on the east coast after the war, prior to me leaving the Army. Was she possibly flying out of somewhere in Virginia at that time?

She was at the end of the war a Lieutenant Commander, and she was based at Camp Lejeune for a while. Was that where you may have run into her?

Matt Wiser

Adams and Aurora: that is pretty familiar territory in my logbook. Four days straight, still flying out of Williams, one refueling on the way up, but since we were clean coming back, didn't need to. You name it, we used it: Mark-82s, M-117s, Rockeyes, Napalm, Maverick missiles, 20-mm, a few laser bombs, the whole shebang. The Libyans and Angolans there were quick to surrender, along with the Nicaraguans, but the rest...needed a lot of persuasion before they did so. Up there at the crack of dawn, and we were the last out before dark, and the Apaches, F-111Fs, A-6s, and the Pave Tack-equipped F-4s took over. That one was also like Falaise..but this time, most of 'em didn't get away. Didn't Schwatzkopf get his fourth star for wrapping that up and then getting 5th Army right afterwards? At least it got wrapped up before Winter '86 really came in, and both sides had to hunker down: even the Russians didn't like Midwest Winters. At least he had time to get things ready because Wichita came the following spring, and that started things really rolling for the good guys.

Jeremak

Something about non-sov, and non-latino units in Combloc: here, in Poland we had partialy mobilisation, to replace soviets and east german forces from DDR, send to USA. In States fought too Czech para division, and Polish mechanised div. with additional armoured brigade. Soviets propably thoght that Poles had too good attitude to Americans, and will not fight, as good as, for example East germans. Ahd I heard, that SAF strategical bomb runs was "Blitz-style" operation: to fear people, and destroy civilian infrastructure.

Matt Wiser

From the various books on the war, including Keegan's new one, the Poles were only too glad to surrender when the chance presented itself. One incident that showed how thrilled the Poles were about the war was in Missouri, Joplin, I believe: A Polish MR Regiment was tasked with delaying the U.S. advance down I-44 towards Oklahoma, and they were hung out to dry with no other support. When the Regimental CO realized this, he had his HQ guard arrest and shoot the KGB and GRU "observers", and he raised a white flag over the town. The NY NG's 42nd ID (the "Rainbow" Division), rolled into town without firing a shot. (From The Bear in Eagle Country: The Third World War 1985-89, Presidio Press, Novato, CA, 1994) No doubt there were other incidents....

I finally finished the Keegan chapter dealing with Wichita and the failed Summer '87 Combloc offensive. He says via his Russian sources that the Soviets made the same mistakes as Hitler re: Citadel in 1943 at Wichita. Giving the defenders plenty of time to dig in and prepare a warm reception for one, and the General Secretary continually postponing the offensive until June, so that the "improved" T-80s could be shipped to the U.S. for the offensive (only half made it due to a USN sub sinking two of the freighters delivering the tanks to Veracruz), etc. Schwartzkopf was under a lot of pressure to preempt the ComBloc attack from the politicians, but he held firm, and so did the U.S. Fifth Army. Powell had Third Army by that time (Mississippi and Louisiana), and he helped out by doing some noisy diversions to attract ComBloc reserves from Oklahoma down to Louisiana and Arkansas. By the time the GRU realized they were being faked out, it was too late. And the Fifth Army's counterattack was such that a two hundred mile gap in the ComBloc line was torn, and it wasn't patched until OKC. But places like Stillwater, Amarillo, Tulsa, Ponca City, etc. were paid for in blood.

Panzerfaust: I had an "unofficial" talk with the Air War College, and the person I talked to said that only one other candidate with a PhD besides you is shortlisted for the job there. Your chances are pretty good, methinks. Besides, they want folks whose wartime experience was in another branch of the military besides the Air Force.

You'd be surprised how many EPWs thought they'd be killed when they realized that Marines had captured them: in 5th MarDiv, our ALOs told us that Marine intelligence officers had very little difficulty in getting people to talk. The less educated ones (Soviets from Central Asia, Mexicans, Nicaraguans, Libyans) were the most scared and thus, the most talkative. The more educated EPWs knew the stuff the political officers were telling them was BS, especially this far into the war (1987-88-89), and many decided "What the hell, the war's over for me" and started talking. Of course, there were diehards who wouldn't or couldn't be persuaded to have a few words with the intel people, but that's Panzerfaust's department.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Panzerfaust: I had an "unofficial" talk with the Air War College, and the person I talked to said that only one other candidate with a PhD besides you is shortlisted for the job there. Your chances are pretty good, methinks. Besides, they want folks whose wartime experience was in another branch of the military besides the Air Force.

That's good odds for him, then. Good luck, Panzerfaust.

Matt Wiser said: You'd be surprised how many EPWs thought they'd be killed when they realized that Marines had captured them: in 5th MarDiv, our ALOs told us that Marine intelligence officers had very little difficulty in getting people to talk. The less educated ones (Soviets from Central Asia, Mexicans, Nicaraguans, Libyans) were the most scared and thus, the most talkative. The more educated EPWs knew the stuff the political officers were telling them was BS, especially this far into the war (1987-88-89), and many decided "What the hell, the war's over for me" and started talking. Of course, there were diehards who wouldn't or couldn't be persuaded to have a few words with the intel people, but that's Panzerfaust's department.

I heard almost a carbon copy of all of that. The intel guys had beaten so much fear into most of the grunts that they did what they were told and only what they were told. It seemed like many of the higher-ranking soviet guys lived (and died) by the phrase "the beatings will continue until morale improves." I know of a few defectors, and of course my soon to be relative in law who was the heli driver. It's kinda hard to win a war when the troops are only motivated by fear. People like that tend to try and find ways out of the situation they are in, just like that Polish division in Missouri.

[lordroel]

From page 35

sloreck

The Marines got a large charge about the "murder family member" or "rape conviction" qualifications that the Sov Bloc commisars told their troops that potential Marine enlistees had to have. Lots of joshing back & forth over doing in mothers-in-law, guys telling other Marines (when they saw a family photo) "we understand why you raped your sister", or - even lower was "man, you must have really wanted to join the Corps if you were willing to rape her". Not PC of course, but nobody gave a shit about that and as you guys all know, in the CZ you get your laughs any way you can.

BTW good to see all the other vets going for the education, after I retired from Navy & medical practice last July (at 60) have finished my first year in Grad School getting a Ph.D. in history (and also sailing as much as I can). My second dip at the GI bill - used the Vietnam one for my MD. Even at UW the most of real hard core lefties have left, voluntarily or otherwise, or actually opened their eyes. What is really upsetting is seeing some of the undergrads & young grad students buy the revisionist/leftie crap that we (the USA) put the USSR in a position where they "had" to attack, and that the defeat of "socialist progressivism" was a victory for the top of the economic pyramid here, and a defeat for the "average" American. While the numbers are small, that anyone supposedly smart enough to get in to college will buy that load of crap.......

To any of you folks associated with military education, if any of your trigger puller/zoomie friends want a seminar/lecture(s) on the role of military medicine in modern warfare, let me know. Us medical types are flattered that line guys think our stuff "just happens", but it takes a lot of coordination & they need to know that.

Matt Wiser

UW: Are you referring to the University of Washington? If you are, that's a nice campus; I've been there a few times to lecture to the AFROTC cadets there. One thing that's prominently on display in front of the ROTC building is the anchor from the Soviet cruiser Vladivostok, sunk during the failed amphibious raid on Seattle in Summer '86. The anchor was brought up by Navy divers in '96 to mark the ten-year anniversary of the battle, and donated to the school. I ran into a few lefties when I went there, seems that a few professors have a little following amongst the students, but if UW follows the norm, they'll be a fringe and nothing more. UCLA drove out a couple of leftie profs when I taught AFROTC there, and UC Boulder fired another when it was revealed he'd served in an "auxiliary" battalion in the occupied zone of Colorado. Someone ought to dig into the profs there and find out if they've got things to hide, and if they do...then sit back and watch the fireworks.

The next chapter of Keegan deals with the occupied territories, and how Ivan not only ruthlessly exploited people, resources, etc., but the extreme means taken to control them (and not always succeeding). I've only just started, but he has dealt with both Houston and Los Alamos...His Russian sources say that while they did expect some kind of guerilla resistance, the scale and ferocity of it was not what they thought.

Pyro

Did Ivan get any use of the oil wells in Texas/Louisiana, or the refineries in Houston? They sure didn't get any from Alberta with widespread sabotage of the rigs throughout the province, the refineries in Edmonton were blown to hell and back from both airstrikes and scorched earth tactics

Jeremak

Probably an accident with this Polish battalion was alone, because a large part of the of soldiers were members of the Communist Party, while others feared that, if they surrend, security force "do something "their families. But the rest of the army was not likely to fight: Soviets take all troops from East Germany, DDR also sent a large part of his army, so the border with West Germany was keeped by 2 polish corps and few independent brigades. In '89 these forces was moved to the eastern Poland to rearm with new equipment and was planned to send them to the U.S. Poland then had huge problems: lacking of all on civilian "market" and the army was poorly armed: No Mig-29, Su-25, even the Mig-23 and T-80. Only a Mig's-21, Su-17, liscence builded Mig's-19, BMP-1, T-55 and few T-72. Almost all of our production went to the USSR. So they removed army from border and wanted to rearm with newest soviet equipment, and in Germany had to replace them with units made entirely of reservists and conscripts. A full mobilization was ordered. Before new units were sent to the West, Europeans attacked the border for almost a blank, and the U.S. and Soviet Union signed a cease-fire. Communists was overthrowed, when the conscripts went to the streets of Warsaw, as of December 81, except that now, against government. In that same time Europeans have taken Berlin, Stettein and strengthen footholds on the Oder. Their forces was greeten in Warsaw by new, provisional government.

Matt Wiser

Myself and some fellow Alabama 'Bushmen' raided across the Alabama-Mississippi border. After a substantial buildup of US personnel heading West from Huntsville, we were able to push the Commies out of the Corinth area and eventually work towards a greater liberation of Mississippi.

The swamps of the southlands were key to causing mayhem behind enemy lines, though those Nicaraguans know what they're about. The atrocities on both sides during these paramilitary campaigns still give me nightmares.

trekchu

You're not the only one. Whenever the annuals for the Battle of Houston come around, I tend to buy at least a couple large bottles of Scotch... :eek:

TheMann

I was an air jockey, but I haven't forgotten it either. But from Houston came the wildest surprise of the Navy.

When the initial invasion came for Houston and the I-10 line broke, I know the survivors of USS Texas from WWII raced south, dislodged the old girl and got her out of there. Today its one of the legendary stories of the Navy, too - that thing hadn't moved in 40 years, but they got it out thanks to no less than four tugboats, moved it to Tampa. I know that the guys who got it out volunteered to take it into battle, but the Navy wisely decided it would cost too much to fix it. At least it got to go back to Texas when it was all over.

Panzerfaust 150

If you think that was fun Slorek..ought to see what the Rangers used to do to the EPW cages when we got to Houston...they had a lot of fake blood for some reason and they used to make sure they'd drench themselves in it...then go over to the EPW cages and say "we want you for our bayonet practice" and "We want that one, he looks like a screamer." Used to scare the EPWs silly...and they'd tell us ANYTHING, just keep them away from the Rangers.

Matt Wiser

The Second Battle of Houston, you mean? The one that followed GULF MARINER, with 2nd and 6th Marine Divisions doing their amphib assault. God, what a mess: it still took a month to clear everything and everyone out of Houston. We saw it on CNN as 335 and the Marines with us were helping III Corps move down the I-35 corridor to Austin and San Antonio. The SR-71 and RF-4C pictures were bad enough....

Keegan does answer Pryo's question more accurately than I could: Ivan got use of about half of the Gulf Coast's oil infrastructure, and about a third of Oklahoma's. Of course, those facilities were vulnerable to attack, both air and by SOF/guerillas, and we did our level best to see that those facilities went boom...often very big and multiple booms. He had worse luck with the aviation facilities: the General Dynamics F-16 plant in Fort Worth was evac'd to Georgia, Boeing and Cessna we've already discussed up in Wichita, Bell Helicopter in the Dallas area moved to Philly, and Bombardier/Learjet in Wichita went to the Twin Cities. Ivan was not pleased in any of those events, and anyone associated with those firms paid. Dearly. The NASA and Los Alamos events, but on a much smaller scale. (I'm about a third of the way through the chapter)

TheMann

I can't say I did anything like that, but I'm sure scaring the hell out of the EPWs would get them to talk. I'll confess to a lot of fake missile shots. We got the better of plenty of SAM sites that way - We'd call out a fake 'Magnum' call on the radio, which of course would make the Soviet guys freak as it means a HARM is heading their way, and they'd kill the radars. We'd then blaze in and before they knew what hit them, a Maverick would land on them. Boom.

Matt Wiser

We worked with the Wild Weasels in the 35th TFW a lot: they'd do the same call, and if a radar shut down, we'd go in. More often as not, we'd use either Napalm or CBU-59Bs for the job-we wanted radars burned, and I mean burned....and the wingie would dump ordinary Rockeyes to kill what was left. (CBU-59Bs are similar to Rockeyes, but their submunitions are all incindinary...we used 'em on supply dumps or anything which needed burning. )

sloreck

Matt: Not Washington, Wisconsin. As you may know major league leftie tradition here before the war. Madison really did not get hit much during the war, the main Oscar Meyer plant was not on the Sov target list I imagine & the heavy industry in this state is around Milwaukee. Research labs did good work with some tricks though.

Student Union (formally the Memorial Union) has big plaque for WWIII, names listed by service or "partisan forces" - more names there than WWI or WWII as reserve units & guard from WI were beat up pretty badly in containing the Sov drive north at the start of the war. Lots of badgers buried in Kansas, Nebraska, Missouri...Flagpole in front of the Historical Society from Scabbard and Blade during the 20's now has stand of AK-47's attached. Marine & NG centers in town have some captured armor in front of them & the ANG base has a Forger on a stand. The Wis Veteran's museum has a large collection of "ephemera" personal & captured from the war, they have the largest collection of that sort of stuff back to the Civil War anywhere in the US - worth a visit if you come to town.

Matt Wiser

I'll keep that in mind; too bad the AFRES squadron at Milwaukee is a C-130 outfit, otherwise I'd bring some F-15Es from Hill and go do some ACM over Lake Michigan. The ANG there in Madison flies A-10s now, or so I've heard, unless they've kept their F-16s. Those Vipers always play rough, whoever flies 'em.

Still, follow my advice about the lefties, especially the profs who inspire such misbehavior. If it gets out one or more of said profs was down in occupied territory and had more dealings with the occupiers than he's willing to admit....sit back and watch the fireworks. Said professor will get fired, or forced to quit, or otherwise run out of town. If he wants to spout the leftie line, he can go to Mexico City, Havana, or Moscow. Do these idiots make any kind of noise on either Resistance Day or Victory Day? Some at UCLA did when I was there, and you never saw so many vets assemble so fast in your life. I was in my AF uniform and couldn't participate, but if campus police hadn't stepped in to separate the parties, there would've been a lynching or two.

Where'd they get the Forger? Not many of those survived in any event, either at sea (Kiev-class carriers being sunk) or on land-guerilla raids and being easy meat for any fighter or attack bird-one Marine A-4 driver in MAG-12 (with whom we flew) had two Forger kills in her logbook.

trekchu

We captured one in semi-flying condition when we overran a Soviet Naval Aviation Airfield near the Gulf COast.

sloreck

Let's just say I have friends from the "old days" making a few inquiries. As far as "protests", the only incident was when there was an "open mike" and they made the mistake of letting me speak, figuring grey hair guy with goatee had to be faculty. After about a minute they realized the mistake & tried to take the mike away, big big mistake - since he touched me first his broken arm was self defense, and in another minute there were several more vets on stage with me who helped guarantee my free speech rights.

The Forger was salvaged from some sort of FOB they had in Nebraska, basically around a rest stop on the interstate. It was in decent shape, but not plyable as lift engine was pulled - Sovs did not have time to trash it when they beat feet.

Panzerfaust 150

News on the job front, just got back from Huntsville. Seems I am now the only candidate..the other guy on the short list I was told accepted a better offer at Rand. Hey, I am not complaining..so, the wife and I got wined and dined and I got to sit in on the class I am teaching...It's going to be "IPB and Intelligence Techniques, a Historical Perspective" or some such, as well as some other Intell History classes and a few other history related courses. They said they'd call next week...so I am a mite nervous...not to mention when I got back, Brookings called and asked if I wanted to be on their staff when they reopen their offices on K Street in DC next week..pay's good, but DC traffic hasn't improved in 20 years.

Matt Wiser

Maxwell AFB will be well served if you take the job. Like I said, they want folks whose wartime experience wasn't just wearing Air Force blue. I take it they let you in with your security clearance into their secured archives-where they have stuff that hasn't been declassified yet? I had a look because of my job (squadron CO)....as they say, I can tell you, then I have to kill ya.

That ex-SNAF pilot who helps run the ski resort at Park City: he used to be a Forger pilot, and I asked him last night about the aircraft. He called it "worse than useless." In hot climates, it could hardly take off empty, let alone with a weapons load, vulnerable to anyone with a gun (several got shot down on takeoff by guerillas with machine guns and RPGs), and easy pickings once in the air. Only ones I got were on the ground. (too bad...)
The SNAF lamented the Yak-41 program never did get operational during the war, as it was what they really wanted.

I'm about halfway through Keegan's chapter on the occupied territories; his Russian sources say that the scale of the guerilla resistance in both the U.S. and Canada surprised even the old men in the Kremlin. Of course, the same tactics used by the Germans and the Soviets themselves in Afghanistan were transplanted here, with predictable results. The more atrocities committed, the more who fled into the hills or swamps to join the guerillas. Even in occupied cities like Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth, OKC, Tulsa, where ruined areas were routinely swept (and anyone caught was shot if lucky and tossed into a labor camp if not), there were "no-go" areas for Combloc troops. One Soviet officer remarked that in some areas, "Our troops control only the area within rifle range of each other." The decision to take reprisals against civilians was made at the top-in the Kremlin itself, so Keegan's sources say.

trekchu

Doesn't surprise me, really. I mean in World War 2 they themselves fought like the devil when their homes were threatened. Why should this be any different in America? If they really thought that they must have bought into that "too weak and decadent to fight" crap.

Matt Wiser

The Chairman of the KGB said it, and practically quoted Hitler: "Smash in the door, and the whole rotten house will come down." I imagine he regretted it later in '87 when he was "retired." (i.e. posed for rifle fire)

[lordroel]

From page 36

sloreck

we in the medical field use the technical term" cause of death - scute lead poisoning"

Matt Wiser

From what Keegan's saying, the Soviets didn't have a Yamamoto, who warned his leadership about the perils of fighting the U.S., especially on American home soil. There were a number of GRU and KGB officers who had done tours here, either as "diplomats" or as actual covert agents, who did say that the U.S. would fight, and fight hard, but their reports were ignored. The Kremlin leadership, including many senior military officers, would listen only to what fit their ideology. As Panzerfaust said, it was a cabal of men who ruled by ideology, as well as back-stabbing each other. Only in '87, after the Battle of Wichita, did the old men in the Kremlin begin to consider the possiblity that they might lose the war. Even after the surrender in Brownsville, and the sea route to Alaska finally severed, it took several weeks for it to sink in that it was for all intents and purposes over. I'm getting ahead, but IIRC several high-ranking Soviet Army and AF officers who were here and dickered with us about the surrender in both locales, are under sentence of death by the rump USSR and are in witness protection, which should tell you how the Soviet leadership felt and still does feel.

jacobus

Imagine what must have happened to their families, back in the remnant USSR.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: Maxwell AFB will be well served if you take the job. Like I said, they want folks whose wartime experience wasn't just wearing Air Force blue. I take it they let you in with your security clearance into their secured archives-where they have stuff that hasn't been declassified yet? I had a look because of my job (squadron CO)....as they say, I can tell you, then I have to kill ya.

When I got my first squadron command, I was at Barksdale. Boy, the archives in there......*shudder*. Some things I didn't want to know were in there, things that I didn't want to know about the ComBloc animals and their actions while in America. Bloody animals, some of those psychos were.

Matt Wiser said: That ex-SNAF pilot who helps run the ski resort at Park City: he used to be a Forger pilot, and I asked him last night about the aircraft. He called it "worse than useless." In hot climates, it could hardly take off empty, let alone with a weapons load, vulnerable to anyone with a gun (several got shot down on takeoff by guerillas with machine guns and RPGs), and easy pickings once in the air. Only ones I got were on the ground. (too bad...)

During that little run Ivan tried on the Big easy, the only Forger to get off Tallinn was taken down by yours truly with 20mm fire. (I was glad I had a cannon pod with me - I didn't want to waste a Sidewinder on that worthless junkpile.) Worse than useless is about right - underpowered, slow, hardly able to carry a weapons load. The one I got had two R-60s hanging from the rails and that's it, and he never got a shot off.

Matt Wiser said: The SNAF lamented the Yak-41 program never did get operational during the war, as it was what they really wanted.

I've heard the Yak-41 was decent enough to fight, so it's probably good for us that it never became operational. I mean, we had our hands full with the MiGs and Sukhois.

Matt Wiser said: I'm about halfway through Keegan's chapter on the occupied territories; his Russian sources say that the scale of the guerilla resistance in both the U.S. and Canada surprised even the old men in the Kremlin. Of course, the same tactics used by the Germans and the Soviets themselves in Afghanistan were transplanted here, with predictable results. The more atrocities committed, the more who fled into the hills or swamps to join the guerillas. Even in occupied cities like Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth, OKC, Tulsa, where ruined areas were routinely swept (and anyone caught was shot if lucky and tossed into a labor camp if not), there were "no-go" areas for Combloc troops. One Soviet officer remarked that in some areas, "Our troops control only the area within rifle range of each other." The decision to take reprisals against civilians was made at the top-in the Kremlin itself, so Keegan's sources say.

The more reprisals they did against civilians, the more people got pissed off. You'd figure the ComBloc idiots would learn that. Apparently not. I know I flew over some of the labor camps in my Hornet, and you could smell them from 5000 feet. I hate to think about some of what went on down there. I'm amazed we didn't have hundreds of Colonel Austins, knowing what they did down there.

Matt Wiser

We liberated a couple of those in Texas. Trust me, I was never so fond of the ABC-gear on my trusty M1. But alas, later on I was Company CO and had to get out there... Some of the stuf would have put ze Germans to shame, at least in the PoW sense.

sloreck

When I was with Alpha Surgical, 1st Med Bn I treated some labor camp survivors from a small camp we over-ran when the tide began to turn. What I saw managed to combine the worst of Japanese POW treatment on the "railway of death" in Thailand/Burma and the condition of Jewish slave laborers under the Nazis. After the war, since I stayed on active duty (my family being gone courtesy of one of those camps) and I had been an intel officer during/after Vietnam before I went to med school, I was involved in evaluation of the survivors of those special camps airtech has talked about. That stuff is porbably going to be classified until the next ice age. All I can say is that Dr Mengele and his cohorts were amateurs compared to the "doctors" who ran those camps.

Unfortunately, some folks associated with that program were not "dealt with" at the end of the war. I have no personal knowledge, however the scutlebutt says there is a list and all of those on the list are to be captured if possible killed if can't be captured under any circumstance - literally the USA will do it in the middle of the day in the town square if they have to and screw any diplomatic blowback. And if captured, no trial..simply squeezed until dry (using any methods) and then an unmarked grave. I'm sure those still in with intel connections know more - but can't say more.

What amazes me is the Russians failed to learn from WW2 where the Japanese started things expecting the US would fold from lack of moral fiber (as our Brit friends would say) and Adolf actually got FDR off the hook by declaring war against the US first because he did not think the "mongrel" Americans were weak. Believing your own propaganda is always a bad idea.

trekchu

sloreck said: Unfortunately, some folks associated with that program were not "dealt with" at the end of the war. I have no personal knowledge, however the scutlebutt says there is a list and all of those on the list are to be captured if possible killed if can't be captured under any circumstance - literally the USA will do it in the middle of the day in the town square if they have to and screw any diplomatic blowback. And if captured, no trial..simply squeezed until dry (using any methods) and then an unmarked grave. I'm sure those still in with intel connections know more - but can't say more.

I will probably get in trouble with both the Army and my wife for saying this, but we once caught one of them. Stripped him down, tied him to a wrecked T-64 and made target practice. We took care to miss in the beginning to make sure he was really, really scared.

Matt Wiser

I wouldn't be too worried: JAG has much bigger fish to fry, and besides, who'd testify against you anyway? Everyone would say "battlefield justice", and that would be that.

Didn't say we got all of those scum-suckers who ran the camps, especially the ones down on the Texas-Mexico border, but we got many of 'em. And don't be surprised if those who did get away have met with unpleasant ends since '89....Remember the raid the Hell's Angels did in Oklahoma over Xmas '87-Operation REINDEER? Unauthorized by Corps, but they did have a habit of creating their own missions when Corps didn't have anything for 'em, and they brought back quite a few POWs, and several guards and officers hog-tied in the back of a Humvee. Care to bet that VII Corps had a court-martial of said guards and officers? Followed by executions? Then there was the Cuban known as the Grim Reaper....the POWs in Cuba had a really hard time, and thanks to a SEAL team doing a snatch-and-grab, the Grim Reaper's now in Federal Prison, doing several consecutive life sentences. Of course, the "auxiliaries" who guarded some of those places were the worst scum you can think of, and those who weren't lynched after the camp they were at was liberated were lucky: many are still in prison today.

The one MiG we really worried about at first was the MiG-29. Then we found out it wasn't a super plane after all, and they didn't have an all-aspect heat-seeker like the AIM-9L. One of my two MiG-29s was a head-on Sidewinder shot...flew up one of the intakes and he fireballed. Su-27s, OTOH, we avoided if at all possible.

sloreck

Considering Baja is likely to become the 51st State before too long, that's no surprise. If you can go down there, some of the resorts there still offer discounts to active military, vets and their families. Lisa and I have taken advantage of that on more than one occasion. The Mexicans squawk about losing Baja and "reclaiming it for Mexico", but since they have at least three major insurgencies going (at last count), and their economy hasn't recovered since the B-52s paid a visit to their oil fields (and little or no tourism to Cancun, Acapulco, etc.), they can't do much but complain to the UN in Geneva. And the UN doesn't say a word, and does nuthin' either. Not to mention that there's two Army divisions, an ACR, and a Marine Division in Baja to see to it things stay the way they are. And an Air Force TFW at La Paz as well. For some reason, Baja qualifies as a "hardship" duty station, with the pay bonus that results. It's the strangest one I've seen, and I've done reserve stints there (with the extra pay showing up). Then again, the locals are grateful for the extra money that the military spends down there, so that likely has something to do with it.

Any of 'em in general population have to watch their backs, or so the MSNBC Lockup show says. It never fails to show what armed robbers, murderers, and the like think of traitors. I'll bet that those who do get out probably try and get to Mexico by whatever means they can; if they stay here, life for them can be...difficult. At best. I'd put them on a plane for Havana or Mexico City and tell 'em "You want to live in a socialist paradise? OK, here ya go. And don't bother coming back." Remember that the ones who were active as camp guards or in "auxiliary" units got the stiffer sentences than your run-of-the-mill collaborator....and the leadership of those outfits have already paid-either on the gallows or in Old Sparky. The ones who got away to Mexico or Cuba, well, their time will come....

trekchu

Mind you, not all auxies were willing participants. A good friend of mine was forced into one by threat of having his parents hanged for his brother and me serving in the Army. He didn't go to prison because he didn't serve in a combat unit or as a camp guard and because his mother survived and could testify in his favour. He is now one of my senior managers, because my dad was the only one willing to give him a job in the immediate post-war enviroment.

Still, Ivan used only the most loyal of them as Camp Guards, and that scum deserves everything.

Panzerfaust 150

sloreck said: When I was with Alpha Surgical, 1st Med Bn I treated some labor camp survivors from a small camp we over-ran when the tide began to turn. What I saw managed to combine the worst of Japanese POW treatment on the "railway of death" in Thailand/Burma and the condition of Jewish slave laborers under the Nazis. After the war, since I stayed on active duty (my family being gone courtesy of one of those camps) and I had been an intel officer during/after Vietnam before I went to med school, I was involved in evaluation of the survivors of those special camps airtech has talked about. That stuff is porbably going to be classified until the next ice age. All I can say is that Dr Mengele and his cohorts were amateurs compared to the "doctors" who ran those camps.

Unfortunately, some folks associated with that program were not "dealt with" at the end of the war. I have no personal knowledge, however the scutlebutt says there is a list and all of those on the list are to be captured if possible killed if can't be captured under any circumstance - literally the USA will do it in the middle of the day in the town square if they have to and screw any diplomatic blowback. And if captured, no trial..simply squeezed until dry (using any methods) and then an unmarked grave. I'm sure those still in with intel connections know more - but can't say more.

What amazes me is the Russians failed to learn from WW2 where the Japanese started things expecting the US would fold from lack of moral fiber (as our Brit friends would say) and Adolf actually got FDR off the hook by declaring war against the US first because he did not think the "mongrel" Americans were weak. Believing your own propaganda is always a bad idea.
Slorek,
I can tell you that was a majority of what we dealt with for the Tier II trials. A lot of those folks were auxiliaries, low ranking KGB, DGI and MVD types. And yeah, the records on what they did was recently released, so Slorek, you can talk about it if you want, I know, I helped declas it. Tier Is were for the big fish we caught. As for the other issues, Trek, have your friend contact me, I think we can get his record expunged. And yeah, Ivan did force a lot of folks into the auxiliaries, I'd say most of those battalions were 1/3rd hard core scumbags of various types, and 2/3rds "get me the hell out of this". I dealt with both during and after the war.

Fact is, as I said before...and I am not a sympathizer for Ivan, he had "special units" that did the most or the worst of things..the rest was the usual suspects, combat stress coupled with an army made up of a lot of guys who were confronted with wealth beyond their wildest dreams..as I said..a lot of EPWs asked me if they could keep their loot.

Pyro

Speaking of the UN, I heard many ambassadors were still in NYC when it was destroyed because Ivan gave no one any warning other than the fact the Soviet Union and their Warsaw Pact pawns suspiciously withdrew theirs. I bet that didn't endear them to the nations that stayed neutral throughout the war.

trekchu

Pyro said: Speaking of the UN, I heard many ambassadors were still in NYC when it was destroyed because Ivan gave no one any warning other than the fact the Soviet Union and their Warsaw Pact pawns suspiciously withdrew theirs. I bet that didn't endear them to the nations that stayed neutral throughout the war.

Why do you think what remains of the UN consistently signs of on extension after extension of the anti-Soviet Embargo?

TheMann

trekchu said: Why do you think what remains of the UN consistently signs of on extension after extension of the anti-Soviet Embargo?

Beat me to it. It's also the same reason why the Security Council got new permanent members in Germany, Japan, Brazil and South Africa - tilt the balance in favor of the good guys I think is the message there.

I wonder how long it'll be before the whole rotten mess of the rump USSR and the Warsaw Pact will finally cave in and collapse. The sooner the better if you ask me. Likewise with the Castro brothers. I don't know why after the Soviets retreated we didn't just send the Marines and AF to boot Castro from power......would have been well deserved in this case.

trekchu

TheMann said: Beat me to it. It's also the same reason why the Security Council got new permanent members in Germany, Japan, Brazil and South Africa - tilt the balance in favor of the good guys I think is the message there.

I wonder how long it'll be before the whole rotten mess of the rump USSR and the Warsaw Pact will finally cave in and collapse. The sooner the better if you ask me. Likewise with the Castro brothers. I don't know why after the Soviets retreated we didn't just send the Marines and AF to boot Castro from power......would have been well deserved in this case.

The Warsaw pact that only consists of the Rump USSR, Eastern Romania and some of the Stans?

BlackWave

TheMann said: Beat me to it. It's also the same reason why the Security Council got new permanent members in Germany, Japan, Brazil and South Africa - tilt the balance in favor of the good guys I think is the message there.

I wonder how long it'll be before the whole rotten mess of the rump USSR and the Warsaw Pact will finally cave in and collapse. The sooner the better if you ask me. Likewise with the Castro brothers. I don't know why after the Soviets retreated we didn't just send the Marines and AF to boot Castro from power......would have been well deserved in this case.

As sad as it may seem, most experts agree that it won't happen any time soon--although, to be fair, we barely know what's going in there beyond what spysats can tell us, and that ain't much.

Panzerfaust 150

Yeah, and that Eastern Romania portion's being retaken slowly...at least, if CNN is to be believed. Also, there's a lot of problems in the 'Stans...that's where most of the "lost Oblast a year phenomona" comes from. I hear the LSE gives the rump USSR another decade at the current rate of collapse.

[lordroel]

From page 37

BlackWave

Panzerfaust 150 said: Yeah, and that Eastern Romania portion's being retaken slowly...at least, if CNN is to be believed. Also, there's a lot of problems in the 'Stans...that's where most of the "lost Oblast a year phenomona" comes from. I hear the LSE gives the rump USSR another decade at the current rate of collapse.

Severely doubtful, considering the USSR was supposed to have collapsed a few years ago from original estimates. And quite frankly there's a lot of debate over whether the problems in Central Asia are actually anything major--let's face it, we know shit about what's really going on in there, like I said. Only time will tell.

Still, at least we can pride ourselves on getting back together, although economically we're still way behind Europe, India, and Japan.

trekchu

BlackWave said: Severely doubtful, considering the USSR was supposed to have collapsed a few years ago from original estimates. And quite frankly there's a lot of debate over whether the problems in Central Asia are actually anything major--let's face it, we know shit about what's really going on in there, like I said. Only time will tell.

Still, at least we can pride ourselves on getting back together, although economically we're still way behind Europe, India, and Japan.

At least the Europeans aren't boasting about having taken the lead economically. I was surprised..

Matt Wiser

I think the reason we didn't finish off Fidel was that after four years of war, we were just plain glad to have won, and were war-weary. The cease-fire celebrations were proof of that. The feeling "It's over!" took root all over, and there was a sense that old scores could be settled later, if need be. As for Fidel, ISTR a CNN piece that had everyone's intel estimates saying that he couldn't last six months after the cease-fire. Lot of good that was. Like I said before, if he doesn't fully live up to his side of the armistice (and he hasn't for the most part), declare it null and void, and if the Mann rides shotgun with his F-22s, I'll lead the first wave of Strike Eagles over Downtown Havana on D-Day.

Remember that quite a few UN members were Soviet-leaning or Soviet sympathetic back in the day, and a lot of them had "turnovers in government" postwar. Even the Viets had one-though they're still Communist, it's more in name only, and they picked up the model the PRC was following before Ivan turned the SS-20s on them....interesting how many of the Viets' old guard had "premature heart attacks" when the armistice went into effect.

Almost finished with Keegan's chapter on the occupied territories; then it's the Battle of Tulsa and PRARIE FIRE: the U.S. Offensive in Spring-Summer 1987.

Pyro

Matt Wiser said: I think the reason we didn't finish off Fidel was that after four years of war, we were just plain glad to have won, and were war-weary. The cease-fire celebrations were proof of that. The feeling "It's over!" took root all over, and there was a sense that old scores could be settled later, if need be. As for Fidel, ISTR a CNN piece that had everyone's intel estimates saying that he couldn't last six months after the cease-fire. Lot of good that was. Like I said before, if he doesn't fully live up to his side of the armistice (and he hasn't for the most part), declare it null and void, and if the Mann rides shotgun with his F-22s, I'll lead the first wave of Strike Eagles over Downtown Havana on D-Day.

True. Furthermore, we were totally exhausted--given that our military was in utter tatters, and our leadership a mess, preparations would have taken quite some time. I read another work by Keenan which had an entire chapter that was a jab to those ignorant people who think that were should have launched a full counteroffensive into the USSR--I mean, as all sources agree, our navy was in shambles, 90% of our airforce was gone, 65-70% of our army, depending on who you listen too, several cities nuked, countless towns devastated...so yeah.

trekchu

Ah yes, China. JUst how many different states are there these days?

BlackWave

trekchu said: Ah yes, China. JUst how many different states are there these days?

What, Chinese states? Depends who you listen to, but then again you should only use 'state' in the looset possible sense...Hong Kong is the biggest, methinks.

trekchu

BlackWave said: What, Chinese states? Depends who you listen to, but then again you should only use 'state' in the looset possible sense...Hong Kong is the biggest, methinks.

States as in independent countries. The borders especially in the west of China fluctiate daily.

OOC: The PRC fractured somewhat.

BlackWave

trekchu said:States as in independent countries. The borders especially in the west of China fluctiate daily.

OOC: The PRC fractured somewhat.

Hard to tell, but at the last count it was in the region of half-a-dozen. Not counting microstates.

trekchu

The biggest one in Eastern China is definitely the RoC. I'll never know how they managed to grab all that territory. And FYI, Hong Kong is still British.

BlackWave

trekchu said: The biggest one in Eastern China is definitely the RoC. I'll never know how they managed to grab all that territory. And FYI, Hong Kong is still British.

Officially. And considering there wasn't much to stop them, it shouldn't be all that surprising.

Matt Wiser

On my cousin's last cruise, (as XO of VA-196 on Abe Lincoln) they had a stopover in Taipei: the ROC has both sides of the straits now, and most of coastal China down to Hong Kong. Not so much north to Shanghai-that city ate an SS-17, they say: 6 550 KT warheads.....the devastation you can see on Google Earth: it makes the Manhattan blast zone look like a grass fire compared to the slag that was Shanghai. We do a lot of business with the ROC, and they not only built F-20s for us, but a lot of other arms and ammo got sent here in the Trans-Pacific Convoys the Navy shepherded, and Ivan was never fully able to stop. If anyone here besides Trekchu and gtrof was in an M-60 or early model M-1, especially west of the Rockies, chances are that your 105-mm ammo had the boxes stamped "Made in Taiwan." Same thing for small-arms ammo and spare parts for vehicles. The biggest city left on the Coast besides Hong Kong happens to be Canton, and didn't they ask the UK to incorporate the city into the Crown Colony because things were so bad? Almost like how Baja is-they were a protectorate for a while, and it's more than likely that they'll become a state in a year or two.

The Mann: the Scott brothers will be at Mountain Home this weekend, after the last of the red tape was cut. They'll be getting their F-15E rides, and more than a few war stories. Tony did say that they will be incorporating the CSP gal's escapades into the movie, but not how.

The next Keegan chapter has special interest: Lisa and I flew in PRARIE FIRE, supporting III Corps. Crossing the Rio Grande, then the Sandias, and then across Eastern New Mexico to the Texas line in Phase I. That's when we finally got going, and the feeling began to sink in that "We're going to kick these Red bastards out-and the Red-lovers with 'em." Two more years, though....

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: I think the reason we didn't finish off Fidel was that after four years of war, we were just plain glad to have won, and were war-weary. The cease-fire celebrations were proof of that. The feeling "It's over!" took root all over, and there was a sense that old scores could be settled later, if need be. As for Fidel, ISTR a CNN piece that had everyone's intel estimates saying that he couldn't last six months after the cease-fire. Lot of good that was. Like I said before, if he doesn't fully live up to his side of the armistice (and he hasn't for the most part), declare it null and void, and if the Mann rides shotgun with his F-22s, I'll lead the first wave of Strike Eagles over Downtown Havana on D-Day.

Yeah, I do remember that day in March 1990 when they finally told us to stay on the ground. It felt very good indeed, and I know most of my squadron was ready to settle down for a bit and relax. I know I celebrated that one by conceiving my first son.

About going back to Havana, all you'll need to do is give me a bit of warning to get the Raptors ready to fly. Superbird will be plenty happy to fly again, and open up yet another can of whupass on the Cuban Air Force. Knowing the shape its in, I wonder if they'll hear the aces' callsigns and decide they'd rather face court martial than die? I might just try that, no sense is wasting good Sidewinders if we don't have to, right? Wait a year or so and you might have my son in on it, too - he's apparently doing real well training in T-6s and T-38s right now.

Matt Wiser said: Remember that quite a few UN members were Soviet-leaning or Soviet sympathetic back in the day, and a lot of them had "turnovers in government" postwar. Even the Viets had one-though they're still Communist, it's more in name only, and they picked up the model the PRC was following before Ivan turned the SS-20s on them....interesting how many of the Viets' old guard had "premature heart attacks" when the armistice went into effect.

I'll be honest, I've never understood why Ivan was so dumb to turn on the one massive country that was at least sympathetic to them. Lord knows the PRC didn't like us pre-war. What, did they figure the Chinese would go north if the Soviets went West?

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: On my cousin's last cruise, (as XO of VA-196 on Abe Lincoln) they had a stopover in Taipei: the ROC has both sides of the straits now, and most of coastal China down to Hong Kong. Not so much north to Shanghai-that city ate an SS-17, they say: 6 550 KT warheads.....the devastation you can see on Google Earth: it makes the Manhattan blast zone look like a grass fire compared to the slag that was Shanghai. We do a lot of business with the ROC, and they not only built F-20s for us, but a lot of other arms and ammo got sent here in the Trans-Pacific Convoys the Navy shepherded, and Ivan was never fully able to stop. If anyone here besides Trekchu and gtrof was in an M-60 or early model M-1, especially west of the Rockies, chances are that your 105-mm ammo had the boxes stamped "Made in Taiwan." Same thing for small-arms ammo and spare parts for vehicles. The biggest city left on the Coast besides Hong Kong happens to be Canton, and didn't they ask the UK to incorporate the city into the Crown Colony because things were so bad? Almost like how Baja is-they were a protectorate for a while, and it's more than likely that they'll become a state in a year or two.

According to the brother, Taipei is a helluva Liberty port. Even when his 5,500-strong crew aircraft carrier shows up, the place isn't short of hookers. I have no idea how that's possible, but I'm too old for that sorta thing anyways, not to mention I have an ex-special forces wife. The PRC obviously has no interest in communism any more - the commies tried to wipe them off the map, I wouldn't have any love for 'em either - and I hope they do recover. Japan's doing well now, and now that Kim Il Scum and his crazyass son are six feet under perhaps Korea has a chance as one nation too.

Having been to Hong Kong about a decade ago, after the war on vacation (bro somehow managed to get me, the wife and the kids on a Navy jet to see him at Yokosuka, lord knows how he did that), and the people at Hong Kong love American servicemen, perhaps a little too much so. Britain doesn't want to make Hong Kong and integral part of the UK (not that I blame them, considering its ~8500 miles from home), but HK wants to be permanently linked to Britain. That was ten years ago, I'm not sure how much has changed.

Matt Wiser said: The Mann: the Scott brothers will be at Mountain Home this weekend, after the last of the red tape was cut. They'll be getting their F-15E rides, and more than a few war stories. Tony did say that they will be incorporating the CSP gal's escapades into the movie, but not how.

They'll enjoy that, for sure. Ridley was just about shooting a load in his pants sitting in my Raptor, I can only imagine what he's gonna be life after climbing out of your Strike Eagle......

Matt Wiser said: The next Keegan chapter has special interest: Lisa and I flew in PRARIE FIRE, supporting III Corps. Crossing the Rio Grande, then the Sandias, and then across Eastern New Mexico to the Texas line in Phase I. That's when we finally got going, and the feeling began to sink in that "We're going to kick these Red bastards out-and the Red-lovers with 'em." Two more years, though....

PRAIRIE FIRE was about where all of us figured "OK, now we're gonna start shoving these bastards out of our country." I know how good that was for morale, as I had just gotten to be XO of my squadron at that point (I wasn't XO for long - CO was KIA thanks to a Flanker about a week and a half later - rest in peace, Ryan ) and I know how much more willing people were to fly when they knew now they could give Ivan a busted nose.

Panzerfaust 150

Good news, bad news:

Good news, well, Maxwell called, and I start in the fall. Seems I am getting my moving expenses paid for, and there's a house on post for us. Good stuff really. I have an appointment with Defense Investigative in Reston next week to begin my SSCBI. Not fun. But, we does what we have to for the big bucks.

Now, the bad news. I got a letter from the Department of the Army..telling me that I am to prepare for possible recall under the Soldiers and Sailors Act of 1947? Somebody's screwing around. I hadn't heard anything about to go pear shaped in the news.

As for other matters, read more Keegan, he's spot on about Prarie Fire..and I like how he refers to the famous AP photo of the town sheriff somewhere in Oklahoma shaking the hand of a Army tanker on the deck of said tanker's M1...and there's a tattered US flag waving from the recently retaken city hall. When I saw that in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, that was my "We're gonna beat these bastards" moment.

trekchu

Something must be up, because I recieved a similar letter. Speculations Gentlemen? So far my contacts either know nothing or simply can't talk.

sloreck

I haven't heard anything yet, and being 61 (yesterday) I'm a little lower on the food chain. On the other hand, as a senior MD who would be a staff/planning weenie and not in a BAS age doesn't matter - and as a retired officer drawing full pension, I'm on Uncle's "list" until I go 6 feet under. In addition to all my post-war experience, staff college, etc. I was the senior Navy medical officer for the largest amphib operation since WW2 - the raid that trashed Petropavlosk. Good thing I've stayed in shape & can still get in to my uniforms, but hopefully they won't screw up my Ph.D. program.

trekchu

Same here, although I am fifteen years younger.

Come to think of it, if something does go down, my money's on Cuba. Fidel has been less than cooperative lately, and the UN isn't pleased with him either.

[lordroel]

From Page 38

Matt Wiser

hat's strange, because neither the 366th at Mountain Home, the active-duty 388th or my AF Reserve 419th at Hill have gotten any kind of alert order. If it's Cuba, we'll know when we get blood chits in English and Spanish. I'll check with a few old friends I flew with not just in 335, but in the other squadrons in the 4th TFW, one of whom is now the Wing CO, and another is the Wing DO (Deputy for Operations), and see if they've heard anything. My guess is Cuba, for what it's worth, as well. They're still at Seymour-Johnson in North Carolina, and if they do go south, they already know where they're supposed to fly from: Patrick AFB next to the Kennedy Space Center. We'll know in the 419th if we're going when the blood chits show up....Unless, of course, this is all just an exercise or a test of the mobilization system (we haven't had one of those in a while).

Lisa's in a tizzy because Brad Pitt is coming along with Matt Damon when the Scott brothers show up tomorrow. They've taken flight physicals at Edwards AFB, so they're cleared for orientation rides. I'll be flying Tony Scott in the morning, and Mr. Pitt in the afternoon. Two other A-listers coming: Kate Winslet, who is coming on Sunday for her ride, and Charlize Theron, also on Sunday.

PRAIRIE FIRE had more than a few such moments, though Tulsa lasted a lot longer than planned: a week turned into three to clear that city. What was that TV preacher who had a university there? IIRC that university changed hands six or seven times before the 42nd ID took it for good, and all that was left was rubble, craters, and a generally burned-out campus. For us, it was watching the bug-out from Taos, Los Alamos, and Santa Fe when we knew "we're going to win": as III Corps got rolling on I-40, you saw the Russians, Cubans, and a few Mexicans pull out and try and get away before III Corps cut the roads that connected with the I-40 and headed south. First time in the war that we saw the ComBloc doing a general bug-out, but not the last. For us, that was a "target-rich environment." Moved into Kirtland AFB only two days after it was retaken, and we flew 5-6 times a day that first week. Whoever was in command in New Mexico and Southern Colorado on the ComBloc side wasn't very good: we were on the Texas line in two weeks, Clovis notwithstanding, and in Amarillo a couple weeks after that. Then we flew our first missions into Kansas and OK, before Phase I wrapped up with OKC. Stillwater was our first mission into OK, and that was a surprise.

TheMann

I got orders from the boss of the Fourth Air Force to be ready for a campaign, too. I guess I spoke a wee bit too soon on the front about making Fidel remember who he fucked with, because my guess is its Cuba as well.

Matt, if you or any of your buddies are flying out of Patrick AFB, that's where I am right now, so they'll have me and my guys in the Raptors riding shotgun. They can relax, if the Cubans are dumb enough to send anything our way we'll blow it to bits for them.

Matt Wiser

Well, I guess I spoke too soon, because I just got a call to "maximize aircraft availability" and have most of the air and ground crew ready to be called up (no extended vacations, guys-stay close to Salt Lake/Ogden or Idaho, is what I told 'em, even though half of my pilots-WSOs are another matter-are airline pilots in their day jobs) Our Hollywood weekend is still on, though; it'll be nice to have that going instead of thinking about what may be coming next. At least if we go, this time, all the fighting will be done on Fidel's turf. Lisa was told to have one squadron on 24-hour notice to deploy, and those guys and gals are sitting in the old SAC alert barn (Mountain Home was a SAC base in the '50s and early '60s), waiting....And yes, we've been told that if we do deploy, Patrick is where we go. 419 has only one squadron at Hill, so if we deploy, we report to the 366th, which means my wife becomes my temporary CO! (We're the only Strike Eagles at Hill: the active duty wing, the 388th, is an F-16C unit)

Hey Panzerfaust, get that job at Maxwell ASAP: if you do get called up, it'll be waiting for you when it's over.

Anyone else have PRAIRIE FIRE stories? There should be quite a few good ones. In some cases that was literally true: Ivan in a number of instances started fires on the prairie to try and slow us down. Those strikes around Stillwater and other parts of OK, before III Corps and the Sixth Army met up with Schwartzkopf and Fifth Army were really wild. It wasn't until October, when Wichita Falls fell to 1st Cav, that III Corps linked up with VII Corps, and we had a continuous front across from Southern New Mexico, through North-Central Texas-southern OK, into Arkansas, and the Mississippi. The next spring came Midland-Odessa and that D/FW mess. I jumped ahead a little and Keegan says that Schwartzkopf fired not only the VII Corps commander, but the CO of 3rd Armored and 42nd ID for getting stuck in that...mess. "I wanted Patton's approach, not von Paulus'" is what Schwartzkopf said about the decision to relieve those three generals.

trekchu

Well, it's official here too. I was told to report to the Staff of 14th AD at Fort Hood, with some Oak Leaves as a bonus. The Misses wasn't happy, but as an Army brat she understands.

sloreck

Got a call to go to the local reserve center for a physical ASAP, and unofficial word that if I get an upcheck to pack & prepare to go to Camp Lejeune for IIMEF staff. Sounds like we'll be saying buenos dias pendecho to Fidel.

gtrof

Trekchu, what's the TO&E currently for the 14thAD? I've got every book on the Bradley and Abrams published in the last couple years. The newest M1A2-SEP is a beast. Would have killed for that Blue Force tracker and information net during the war.

Also just bought Mikhail Baryatinskiy and Steve Zagaloa's new book T-80 Main Battle Tank: The Soviet Army's last armor champion. It has good information on the development of the T-80 and its war fighting history. Lots of nice color plates too of different units stationed in Europe and U.S. invasion forces.

trekchu

For the most part we are equipped with the latest M1 variant, with the Mechanized Infantry driving late-model Bradleys. Can't write more, my plane is going in an hour. Will write more when I am on location in a couple of hours.

TheMann

My F-22s just all got back from a training mission with full combat loads, six AMRAAMs and two Sidewinders. All aircraft performed flawlessly, as I knew they would. These are new airplanes with experienced drivers, after all.

My son got called into an active unit, too. He's cleared basic training and did really well in the Talon, so they assigned him to an F-16 squadron which is gonna be based out of Homestead. It's gotta be Cuba, because every base on the Gulf Coast is filling up.

I just got an intel report, too. Apparently a Kilo from Fidel's bunch took a shot at New Jersey as she was headed for a visit in Houston. Her Seahawk damaged his ass, but they don't know whether he made it back to Havana. Stupid fuck obviously has forgotten that shooting at commissioned US warships is a casus belli......

Matt Wiser

Guys, whatever this is, it's definitely Cuba. I talked to a few friends at HQ TAC and they said this is aimed at Fidel. Nothing official, of course, but we're tightening the screws, doing everything possible short of actual invasion. The Navy, according to my sources, is going to declare a blockade, and basically tell everyone that any ship bound for Cuba is going to be sunk if it flies a Cuban flag; anyone else will be seized or forced to turn back. 390th TFS got their deployment order today, and they leave in 24 hours. The other two (389th and 391st) are on 72-hour standby. 419th TFW has not yet been formally notified of a call-up. We may not be needed: the 4th TFW at Seymour-Johnson, and the 48th (the Statue of Liberty Wing) at McDill have two wings of Strike Eagles (96 in the 4th, 72 in the 48th) so a Reserve wing from Utah may not be necessary. We may get called up anyhow, in case something else happens while this Cuba business unfolds. Whether or not there's an invasion is up to Fidel and Raoul. Squeeze them out of oil, especially from that lunatic down in Caracas, and they will discover that complete fulfillment of the Armistice terms is in their best interest. Or so we hope.

Well, things aside, we had our Hollywood weekend start, and the Scott brothers got some footage of the 390th (The Wild Boars) as they took off on check flights prior to deploying. Ridley flew backseat in Lisa's F-15E, while I took Tony up. They loved every minute of it, even if Lisa's normal wingie flew Ridley (he didn't know that she is only a navigator, not a rated pilot). Lt. Col. Kara Sackhoff (389th TFS CO and a 335th TFS alumni) flew as well, and they're getting a lot of war stories. Kara must've pissed off someone, because she's been passed over for Colonel twice, and once her current term is up, she'll be headed to civy street. Or maybe not, with the current situation. Pitt and Damon fly this afternoon, with Kate and Charlize flying tomorrow. The Mann was right: the Scott brothers loved their flying. They got some great footage, and we've rigged up some cameras in some of our F-15Es to get some extra. (DOD's Movie Liasion Office has been a big help, btw)

So Zaloga has a new book on the T-80? Nice to see those beasts in something else than a gunsight. Isn't the Russian Republic coming out with its own history of the war? Even if some of those guys have blood on their hands, it'd be the first time we've had a really honest view "from the other side of the hill." Anything from the Rump USSR has to be taken with a huge dose of salt.

BlackWave

Hmm. Apparently, all word in the Cuban media and beyond indicates that Fidel is going to start sucking up and behaving. Of course, this isn't official, but a mobilization like this is guaranteed to send a message to anyone.

Matt Wiser

Yeah: well I'll believe it when I see it. Starting with the repatriation of the bodies of the POWs who died in captivity on the island. Those brothers and sisters in arms need to come home for their rest. He also hasn't paid up his share of war repatriations-send us the money you owe, Fidel, or SOUTHCOM will be the collection agency. And how'd Cuban Media explain a sub taking a shot at a major USN warship (I'm not a Spanish-speaker)? Just scratching a USN ship is a cause for war right there...

trekchu

Yay for airphones. I am flying commercial, so I could watch the news. Is it true taht the Cubans fired on one of our Ticos in the Florida strait?

TheMann

BlackWave, I don't think Fidel will EVER behave. He never has. That scumball doesn't seem to think that we'll ever collect on his debts to us. If he wants to kiss up, send our POWs home, send us the money he owes us, and shoot that stupid sub commander.

I don't know about the Ticos, I know that New Jersey got shot at, and that's a bit bigger than the Ticos. Fidel will try, no doubt about that, but he'll fail.

trekchu

TheMann said: BlackWave, I don't think Fidel will EVER behave. He never has. That scumball doesn't seem to think that we'll ever collect on his debts to us. If he wants to kiss up, send our POWs home, send us the money he owes us, and shoot that stupid sub commander.

I don't know about the Ticos, I know that New Jersey got shot at, and that's a bit bigger than the Ticos. Fidel will try, no doubt about that, but he'll fail.

My wife will kill me for this credit card bill but meh. Anyway, they repeated the story and showed footage of a smoking USS Hué City limping into a port in Florida.

Matt Wiser

That's it, then. FYI the POWs in Cuba were repatriated in March '90, six months after the Armistice went into effect-remember that Fidel didn't admit the Armistice applied to him in Cuba until the blockade was screwed tighter than tight, and a few ships headed to Cuba wound up becoming artifical reefs. The bodies of the POWs who died in captivity in Fidel's POW camps haven't been returned, as per the Armistice, along with a ton of money he owes in war repatriations. SOUTHCOM may very well be the collection agency, unless he gets a case of the smarts and realizes this may be it for him. I think he'd rather die in bed rather in a bunker, but who knows with Fidel and his brother?

Gotta go: I'm flying Brad Pitt in 20 min. Lisa is wishing right now that she was a pilot instead of a navigator....She did tell me not to look at either Kate Winslet or Charlize Theron too much. Or else I'm sleeping on the couch for a week. A lot of female air and ground crew are getting autographs as I type, btw.

BlackWave

Wait! This just in on CNN: according to satellite feed, there's a lot of commotion going on at the Parliament building in Havana. What could be possible gun exchange has been detected. If the word of political deserters from there is to be trusted, there was always friction between Castro's cronies over the whole issues with the US. As I'm sure his 'compadres' don't want F-22s over Havana because of his sturborness, they're doing the only thing they can: our job.

trekchu

BlackWave said: Wait! This just in on CNN: according to satellite feed, there's a lot of commotion going on at the Parliament building in Havana. What could be possible gun exchange has been detected. If the word of political deserters from there is to be trusted, there was always friction between Castro's cronies over the whole issues with the US. As I'm sure his 'compadres' don't want F-22s over Havana because of his sturborness, they're doing the only thing they can: our job.

Just landed and am typing this from my cell. There was a story on CNN. Apparently Fidel was on the telly over there and said that the "US-backed, counterrevolutionary Fascists" have been defeated, and he all but dared us to come over and said that the US Charge d'affairs had been shot for conspiration against the people.

BlackWave

trekchu said: Just landed and am typing this from my cell. There was a story on CNN. Apparently Fidel was on the telly over there and said that the "US-backed, counterrevolutionary Fascists" have been defeated, and he all but dared us to come over and said that the US Charge d'affairs had been shot for conspiration against the people.

Well, of course he's gonna say that. All signs indicate it's still flaming in there. CNN's also saying that the 'other party' in Cuba's asking for assistance. If push comes to push, you'll have help at least, and a new, friendly government ready to be installed. I mean, considering that the people there have been pumped full of anti-US propaganda for decades, an invasion isn't going to help, and they'll need friendly faces to follow after this--friendly faces who'll also be checking their inboxes from DC.

trekchu

BlackWave said: Well, of course he's gonna say that. All signs indicate it's still flaming in there. CNN's also saying that the 'other party' in Cuba's asking for assistance. If push comes to push, you'll have help at least, and a new, friendly government ready to be installed.

OOC: Please pretend that about an hour has passed

Anyway, I just got settled at Fort Hood, and was immediately put on a chopper and flown out to USS Belleau Wood. She is making a speed run to Florida where I will join the Division.

Anyway, of course they say that, but from what the rumour mill onboard says they fired at some of our Aircraft too.

[lordroel]

From Page 39

BlackWave

]Well, of course. CNN's saying that there's clashes between army factions near Havana--several. Most likely this will be a job for the air force and Marines, my friends in the army are saying. Flyboys knock out ground opposition, Marines go in, mop up and make sure the right people are in charge. Everyone's agreeing that a full occupation won't go well--considering that most Cubans hate us already, and our army isn't what it once was...

sloreck

Passed my physical, when the rescen doc signed off on it CO called me in, gave me orders. In the airport (O'hare) catching connection to Lejeune. Orders state report CG II MEF for duty as II MEF surgeon forward. Called my bud who is 2nd MARDIV Surgeon, he said don't bother to unpack & he's set up for me to draw 782 gear etc. Told him no need for pistol, when I retired my pals got me a Kimber Royal match grade .45 - in my luggage with 2 mags & 100 rounds & my trusty low rider blackhawk holster.

My first class is 1 September, brought books with me so MAYBE will make it home in time.

TheMann

trekchu said: My wife will kill me for this credit card bill but meh. Anyway, they repeated the story and showed footage of a smoking USS Hué City limping into a port in Florida.

You'll regret that one, Fidel......any word on how many deaths and injuries on board?

And are the SSN bubbleheads in the area yet? I imagien after shooting at US ships at least twice, the sub guys will want to eat some Kilo-class breakfast.

I just got told that my unit is to clear the airspace over Cuba, especially over Havana. I think its go time......

trekchu

TheMann said: You'll regret that one, Fidel......any word on how many deaths and injuries on board?

And are the SSN bubbleheads in the area yet? I imagien after shooting at US ships at least twice, the sub guys will want to eat some Kilo-class breakfast.

I just got told that my unit is to clear the airspace over Cuba, especially over Havana. I think its go time......

Same here. 14th AD is to go in right on the heels of the Marines, first group of the second wave, can't tell you where exactly though. We are at war with Cuba.

gtrof

Okay here's what I've heard so far.

The Jersey was shot at along with the Tico CCG. It seems one of the torps meant for the BB was taken by the cruiser. Anyway a short time after that a pair of F-16s out of Homestead were jumped by MiG-29s flying from an airfield near Havana. They shot down three of the bastards while the others ran. One website suggested a Viper was damaged.

Now I'm hearing that a Cuban freighter was sunk off Havana. Might one of our 688 or Virgina class boats got its first kill since WWIII? To all you guys good luck in upcoming operations. What's the Cuban air strength currently?

BlackWave

Okay, this just in:

The AC-130s and SEALs are coming in to give support to the guys on our side on the ground. What air support they have is meaningless, as any moment now their bases will be smoking. Apparently, our friends there are in the process of seizing Havana, but Fidel is nowhere to be seen. They say that he has many escape routes that were kept only to him and his loyalists; if what they say is true, it's not likely we'll find him. In fact, he may have already slipped during the mobilization. Scattered reports are coming in of landing of elite troops, but heavy civilian resistance is incoming. If what they're facing now is any indication, an occupation will be an utter nightmare--think WIII times a hundred. Priority is to take Havana, get the right guys in office, and then put a small garrison to keep over them. Guantanomo bay is a likely prospect to host that...

trekchu

One of 14th AD's Squadrons is ashore exactly opposite to our old base at Guantanamo.

Matt Wiser

Ah, crap. Here I am, sitting in the Mountain Home O-Club, entertaining our guests from Hollywood, and watching everything on CNN and Fox News Channel, while I'm on my laptop. The O-Club has two TVs: one's on CNN, the other tuned to Fox. After flying Brad Pitt on his backseat F-15E ride, I was on the phone to HQ TAC, to see if either Lisa's 366th or my 419th would be needed. The response was from CINC-TAC himself: "Thanks for the offer, Colonel, but we've got enough airpower down in Florida, from the Air Force, Navy, and Marines, to do the job. Tell your wife that she can release the 390th from deployment, as they're not needed any more. Just sit back, entertain your guests from Hollywood, and watch it on CNN." Sure enough, an hour later, the official word came, and 366th TFW and 419th TFW are released from alert for deployment. You guys take care, and get those two bastards and their supporters for the rest of us. And bring the lefties who fled to Havana back with you: they got a lot to answer for, and the ones that Panzerfaust lamented about getting away at the war-crimes trials. Either bring 'em back in cuffs, or in a body bag. As for the money Fidel still owes us, well, anyone who hits the Havana Central Bank should find at least the first installment. Collecting what's fully due, with interest, is something the new government's gonna have to work out.

The Navy's subs got their share of kills during the war, ships and subs both. Not like some of that alternate history stuff you read, where the Cold War ended with a whimper instead of a bang. Ivan had a price on the head of one sub skipper, who made it his specialty to hit convoys bound for Alaska: 27 ships sunk during his tenure in command of U.S.S. San Francisco. He laughed at it, went on with business, and retired a three-star Admrial.

You guys down there or on the way: take care and god bless. And keep your heads down. I wish I was with you guys, flying cover, but when CINC-TAC says you're not needed....what can you say or do? The Mann: take care of the Strike Eagles from the 4th and 48th. They should be able to take care of themselves, but having some Raptors overhead.....the boys and girls will be glad you're overhead, even if they are mud-movers most of the time. Let me guess, guys: somebody dusted off OP PLAN 316-62, right?

BlackWave

I wouldn't be suprised if said lefties fled to South America at the first sign of trouble, like Fidel has most likely done by now. There's countless places from San Salvador to the Andes they could go. As for the money...well, I'm sure once the faction on our side gets in they'll start paying off, but they've never been the most financially gifted, so it'll be slow. I'm sure they followed the example of the remnant USSR--although that has a few thousand nukes still pointed at us, and it's not really worth trying to make them even if we could...

Pyro

You know with Fidel gone and Mexico teetering (depending when the wind blows anyway), you got to wonder how long it'll be before those lefties have nowhere to hide. Granted, I don't think that will happen but a man can dream can't he?

Anyway, good luck to those deployed. Come back safely.

sloreck

Sending this from my iPhone before I lose cell coverage. Enroute to chopper group taking IIMEF staff to a large grey ship. Hopefully our Cuban friends will keep control of things, but all troops have full MOPP gear and auto-injectors, and I passed down the medical chain to make sure our docs & HMs were good to go on chem casualty procedures - just hope the hard core don't get their hands on what they have there & decide to go out in a blaze of glory. Well, my mom & dad honeymooned in Havana in 1948 - so I'll get to visit, been to Gitmo already.

BTW rumor I hear is that we have air & naval forces between Cuba & places like Venezuela with orders to stop/shoot/sink anything running that way.

You zoomies fly safe, and you army guys lets see if we can't arrange to liberate a cigar store.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: The Navy's subs got their share of kills during the war, ships and subs both. Not like some of that alternate history stuff you read, where the Cold War ended with a whimper instead of a bang. Ivan had a price on the head of one sub skipper, who made it his specialty to hit convoys bound for Alaska: 27 ships sunk during his tenure in command of U.S.S. San Francisco. He laughed at it, went on with business, and retired a three-star Admrial.

That was Admiral Paul Reisen, right? His niece is one of my pilots. Was born before the war, but didn't get to see dad much when the war was on. She's a great person and a helluva fighter pilot though, she apparently got two Cuban MiG-29s today. Dad should be proud.

Matt Wiser said: You guys down there or on the way: take care and god bless. And keep your heads down. I wish I was with you guys, flying cover, but when CINC-TAC says you're not needed....what can you say or do? The Mann: take care of the Strike Eagles from the 4th and 48th. They should be able to take care of themselves, but having some Raptors overhead.....the boys and girls will be glad you're overhead, even if they are mud-movers most of the time. Let me guess, guys: somebody dusted off OP PLAN 316-62, right?

You're friends in the Strike Eagles are safe, we got their backs. The Cuban Air Force put up a few MiG-29s, but they ate AMRAAMs before they knew what had shot at them. AWACS says I got another kill for my logbook. God damn, I love these Raptors. Going against the Cubans is like shooting fish in a barrel.

I doubt there will be any more trouble from the Cuban AF. The Air Force decided wisely to keep an F-22 unit around at all times. If its not my unit, its one of the others. Either way, they'll have F-22s over their heads at all times, they can count on that.

Matt, I think we've all fought war enough. You be safe over there, have fun with your Hollywood friends, and let us bring the noise. Fidel's probably halfway to the Andes by now (though I would soooo love to see him try to stay and fight, but him and his brother have probably already bugged out) but we'll get the guy.

To our brothers and sisters on the ground - between the world Wars, the US never lost a ground soldier from air attack, ever. We want to keep it that way here, too. Good luck, haul ass, and bring us home some Cohibas.

Matt Wiser

You do know what our response is supposed to be in the event of Chem/Bio use against our guys? Whoever launched the stuff gets a bucket of instant sunshine in return. Better brush up on your nuclear defense stuff while you're at it. Too bad CINC-TAC decided not to send us: Nobody based west of the Rockies got deployed. The Idaho ANG at Boise has A-10s, and those guys are right pissed. Grunts on the ground need help, and they're not around. Granted, the 23rd TFW with their A-10s out of England AFB in Louisiana, and the 81st (MacIntire AFB in South Carolina) and their Warthogs are probably doing a good job of it anyway. Watch out for the Buffs and Bones: they'll be laying down lots of Mark-82s.

Anyone running down to Caracas had better learn to swim, if they haven't already: CNN is reporting that a Cuban freighter making the run from Santiago de Cuba to Caracas was sunk by carrier air, and that all third-country ships leaving Cuba are being rigorously searched for anyone on the wanted lists; and that if anyone is found, the whole ship is seized and searched more throughly. The Coast Guard VBSS Teams and Navy SEALs are no doubt pretty busy. Anyone know who's been found, if any, yet?

The other stuff we'll be looking for is documents: assuming Fidel didn't order them destroyed before fleeing, there should be a ton of stuff about the war in Cuban archives.

Matt Wiser

I had to explain to the guys and gals in the 419th that we're not going, and for the most part, they were good with it, though several were clearly disappointed. Maj. Kelly Ann Ray, the ex-POW in Cuba for over four years, was one of 'em. She offered to go on active duty and transfer to the 4th, but I declined her request, and told her that her scores will be settled by our friends in the 4th and 48th. But if any Cubans get caught that you had...experiences with, you'll be the first to know and on a plane to Havana to testify. Panzerfaust: if you do run into some of these....creatures, let me know and I'll have Major Ray on a plane ASAP. She was held at a prison in Mariel for a time, then Holguin, and the Isle of Pines for over two years before release in March of '90. The rope marks on her arms and legs tell enough of her story, though she did write a book by Presido Press, and I'm very familiar with it, sad to say.

Lisa had a bunch of fire-eaters in the 366th who wanted to go: after all, they've been training for this, and they feel like their team's in the Super Bowl, and all they get to do is sit on the sidelines. She had to tell them that it's not their turn this time. If we decide to settle with Mexico once and for all, though...then we'll go. And hopefully we won't stop until Mexico City.

Ah, well, tomorrow morning is flying Kate Winslet, and in the afternoon is Ms. Theron. They've never been in a fighter before, and I intend to give them an "A" ticket ride. From treetop level to 25,000 feet should be interesting. And I told them to take some airsickness bags if they felt like they may need them (one thing that flight suit pockets are good for on these kind of hops).

I think it was Admrial Reisen, retired as Commander Submarines Atlantic, IIRC. His niece, you say? I wonder what he thought when he found out she became a blue-suiter instead of following in her uncle's footsteps and going to the Navy?

trekchu

Oh yes. 14th AD is fully on the ground and advancing towards Havanna, with the Marines providing Infantry support. I am too young for 'Nam, but this is what it must have been like. Everyone and their Grandmother is up in arms.

gtrof

Good work with those Raptors Mann. Trekchu are they still using the same tactics from when we fought them back here? Lots of spray and pray with some mines tossed ahead of our tanks by Fidels with a death wish. Did some reading on the Cubans due to what's going on. I'd keep an eye out for some more modern ATGMs, possible sold to them by Venezuela or Iran.

Speaking of Venezuela their president is already on the TV damning us and promising support for their Cuban brothers. Don't know if that means military support yet. Doesn't Venezuela have some dirt cheap Russian built SSKs and a ton of MiGs?

trekchu

As far as we can tell from what intel we got of dead ones and what our boys see at the front, they dispersed a buttload of of old RPG-7s and what rifles they could find among the militias, but other than that no noticeable change in tactics.

BlackWave

Update. Havana is more or less in the right hands--the anti-Fidels are in Parliament and urging the troops to stand down. Pentagon estimate's it'll all be over very soon. AC-130s are tearing up opposition. I wouldn't worry about Venezuala--they've made a fuss about us before, and besides, any support from them will likely be discreet. However, if they do try a full confrontation, we don't have the economy or the military to have a conflict with them or, inevitably, their friends. A few carriers off their coast will scare them, though.

TheMann

Me and three wingmen just downed three more Cuban Fulcrums before the others turned and ran like hell. We've so far only lost one A-10 (lucky AAA gunner, apparently), but they are losing fighters all over the place. I can't imagine they have many MiG-29s left.

I am sure there are lots of SSNs in the Caribbean right now, which should be enough to get the blowhard in Caracas to keep his mouth shut, and if its not Nimitz, America, Midway, Abraham Lincoln and Constellation would fix that problem. Remember what the Monroe Doctrine is, Hugo?

trekchu

BlackWave said: Update. Havana is more or less in the right hands--the anti-Fidels are in Parliament and urging the troops to stand down. Pentagon estimate's it'll all be over very soon. AC-130s are tearing up opposition. I wouldn't worry about Venezuala--they've made a fuss about us before, and besides, any support from them will likely be discreet. However, if they do try a full confrontation, we don't have the economy or the military to have a conflict with them or, inevitably, their friends. A few carriers off their coast will scare them, though.

Agreed. 1st Marine Division has also just broken the Siege of Gitmo, and 14th AD units are closing in on Havanna.

[lordroel]

From page 40

Panzerfaust 150

I just got my recall from the armory...This time, I am going to be posted to helping run an EPW enclosure in Key West NAS. Am posting from my phone on the way to Langley to get a C-130 down to Homestead, and then a flight from there, probably Navy SH-60. It'll be me, an officer and about a dozen MPs for about 80-100 Cuban HVPs (High Value Prisoners). I've been told we're to expect some folks on the Tier II list there. And at least one Tier I. I wonder who?

And in the, it would be worth a few beers any other time: I GOT THE JOB..They told me to not worry, they'd let me come in mid-semester or in the spring. The guy I am replacing is retiring and he's already been asked to stay on for another six months (He's a civilian, retired USAF and CIA).

Matt Wiser

CNN just showed the flag-raising on the old U.S. Embassy, and there was a big cheer in the O-Club here at Mountain Home. They also mentioned that several of the lefties who'd taken shelter in Cuba didn't get out in time, and that a dozen or so have already been taken into custody. I imagine the FBI will be having a few words with them before too long. And I recognize one of 'em: it was that ex-UCLA Prof who was in New Zealand during the war, and was a ComBloc cheerleader while down there. He was completely unrepentant about his support for the Combloc, and now, he'll have to explain himself.

Well, looks like it'll be Kate Winslet in Lisa's role: she and Charlize Theron were in line for the part, and the one who got it was the one who threw up the least on their F-15E rides. Kate only did it once, while Ms.Theron did it three times. Ms. Theron did land a role as then-Lt. Kara Sackhoff, now a Lt. Col. and in charge of the 389th TFS. Both ladies did enjoy their fighter rides, and after all was said and done, asked, "Can we do it again sometime." And I replied, "After the movie comes out."

Congrats on getting the job at Maxwell, Panzerfaust! Hope you don't mind being an army alum in a sea of blue-suiters. But they are dead serious about having instructors who weren't just in the AF.

The Mann: congrats on adding a few more scalps to your kill sheet. If that lunatic down in Caracas sends a few Flankers your way, I'm sure they'll go just as easily as those Fulcrums the Cubans had.

BlackWave

Well, looks like the right people are installed. Fidel's confirmed escaped--not likely we'll ever see him again. Venezuala's definitely not going to do anything but hiss and kick at this stage. Resistance is still ongoing in some parts, but the USAF will take care of that, and priority for grunts is rebuilding Guantanomo, setting up a garrison there, and guarding it.

Good job, all those involved. We may no longer be the #1 superpower, but we've still got it.

sloreck

Taking a quick break & have access to email so want to say thanks for your prayers - they worked. My docs did not have much work to do, or at least not as much as there could have been. Did a few surgeries myself to let some other guys take a break. Choppering (actually MV-22'ing) from Gitmo to Havana for senior surgeons conference and also work with some CA folks to get rough idea on medical aid needed for the average Cuban. Also evaluate EPW medical needs. No chem casualties here, though we found munitions (VX) that were not used.

My boss (Marine 2 star) promised me I'd be home in time for classes starting 1 Sep, even if he has to cut me orders sending me home until demobbed. With a PEBD of 20 Dec 1969, I was the "greyest" in all of IIMEF, Navy or Marine. HQMC is cutting me a special certificate signed by the Commandant recognizing me as the official old fart - will look great on my "I Love Me" wall.

BTW don't think most Cubans hate us - personally saw some Tier 2 types handed over to the Marines by locals who tried to hide in the crowd, and they needed patching. Also, have yet to have to buy a cigar.

SL Oreck
CAPT(MC) USN (FMF)
II MEF Surgeon (forward)

Matt Wiser

Watch for Raoul, though: he's also one we really want bad. He was Defense Minister during the war, and a lot of stuff went on that he either ordered, or knew about and didn't stop. The former POWs held in Cuba have a bone to pick with him, especially, as what happened to them he either ordered, or happened with his approval after the fact. One thing about Gitmo is that those who were killed defending the base when it was attacked were just tossed into a mass grave; maybe we'll exhume the bodies, try and ID them, and send them home to the families. At the very least, ID the bodies and give them a proper burial on-site if necessary.

Any new aces this time around? Or did the Cuban AF die too quickly, in the air and on the ground? It'd be nice to have a few new members of the ace club.

Hey gtrof, glad to see you back: before you went down to Havana, we were talking about PRAIRIE FIRE: the Battle of Wichita and the first successful U.S. counteroffensive in Spring-Summer '87. Any fond or poignant memories from that one? That was the first time that the feeling "We're going to win", was really sinking in.

TheMann

Matt Wiser said: CNN just showed the flag-raising on the old U.S. Embassy, and there was a big cheer in the O-Club here at Mountain Home. They also mentioned that several of the lefties who'd taken shelter in Cuba didn't get out in time, and that a dozen or so have already been taken into custody. I imagine the FBI will be having a few words with them before too long. And I recognize one of 'em: it was that ex-UCLA Prof who was in New Zealand during the war, and was a ComBloc cheerleader while down there. He was completely unrepentant about his support for the Combloc, and now, he'll have to explain himself.

I was watching on CNN when they did it too, and we all cheered rather loudly too. It was almost like that famous picture of the Marines on Iwo Jima, raising the flag to say "we've won".

Our commie-kissing friend will have quite a lot of explaining to do, and I look forward to seeing it, too. Second amendment or not, that guy is deep shit. I guess we can now have our embassy back, and I hope that the future is at least somewhat good.

Matt Wiser said: Well, looks like it'll be Kate Winslet in Lisa's role: she and Charlize Theron were in line for the part, and the one who got it was the one who threw up the least on their F-15E rides. Kate only did it once, while Ms.Theron did it three times. Ms. Theron did land a role as then-Lt. Kara Sackhoff, now a Lt. Col. and in charge of the 389th TFS. Both ladies did enjoy their fighter rides, and after all was said and done, asked, "Can we do it again sometime." And I replied, "After the movie comes out."

Having your wife played by Kate Winslet, nice. Very nice. *has very dirty thoughts* As I understand, its Lucas Black playing me in the movie. I rather like that, actually. You know who is playing you in the movie, yet?

Matt Wiser said: Congrats on getting the job at Maxwell, Panzerfaust! Hope you don't mind being an army alum in a sea of blue-suiters. But they are dead serious about having instructors who weren't just in the AF.

Congrats indeed, Panzer. Now you just gotta get some cocky blue-suiters to respect somebody who plays in the mud. That might be a bit of a challenge. That said, if you need a Raptor-driving ace to prove the point, let me know and I'll see if I can help you out.

Matt Wiser said: The Mann: congrats on adding a few more scalps to your kill sheet. If that lunatic down in Caracas sends a few Flankers your way, I'm sure they'll go just as easily as those Fulcrums the Cubans had.

I will always love the Hornet, but God damn the Raptor is incredible. I first flew it and was awed by its abilities, but flying it im combat against Fulcrums, well, let's just say in a Hornet it was a fight. In a Raptor its like shooting a sleeping animal. The Fulcrums don't know we are there, and by the time they do know they are already dead. It's magnificent, no wonder guys fight to fly these things.

I got another three Cuban AF Fulcrums to add to my kill sheet. That brings my total of known kills to 25......

Matt Wiser

Hey, congrats on three more MiGs. Hope you guys in the F-22s left some for the Eagle and Strike Eagle drivers. You guys can't hog all the air-to-air, you know.

No decision yet, as one other actor is trying for the role: Mark Wahlberg. He couldn't be here at Mountain Home this weekend due to a prior commitment, but will be here Tuesday for his Strike Eagle ride. Personally, I'd rather have Wahlberg. But that ain't my call, it's Tony Scott's. And they did meet Maj. Kelly Ann Ray, the former POW who flies for me in the 419th. She was very disappointed not to be going to Cuba, but has her bags packed, JIC she's needed to ID any of those now in custody. There's a few Cubans, she told me, that she'd like to see die slowly as a result of what they did to her. And she was ready to punch the Grim Reaper's defense lawyer in the face for getting him off the death penalty. (she settled for getting a pic of the guy off the web and using it for target practice with her SiG-Sauer on the range-in civilian life, she's a Deputy Sheriff in Pocatello)

It's not just that particular Commie-kisser, but there were quite a few who fled there postwar, either one step ahead of the FBI, or because their leftie views made them very unpopular here, and to quote said Commie-lover, "I need to go somewhere more hospitable, where my Progressive views are welcome instead of despised." Well, cheering on the enemy while in a friendly country that sent what troops and supplies they could to the West Coast sure made you one to be despised. The Aussies banned him from entering the country, and the Kiwis had him under close survelliance, the whole time, but never could get enough to put cuffs on him. His radio show from Havana is probably enough to send him away for a long, long, time. You'd never believe how many times in the UCLA Free-Speech Area this idiot attracted a crowd-and more often than not, angry vets would show up to give him an "attitude adjustment", much to the cheers of the crowd. Fortunately, he never had more than a handful of students who parroted his drivel.

trekchu

It's official. We bagged Raoul an hour ago. No mistake, I saw him when he was escorted through the Division CP. It appears he tried to flee from Cuba via plane when some of our Infantrymen grabbed him from the plane before it could take off.

Panzerfaust 150

trekchu said: It's official. We bagged Raoul an hour ago. No mistake, I saw him when he was escorted through the Division CP. It appears he tried to flee from Cuba via plane when some of our Infantrymen grabbed him from the plane before it could take off.

Well, than answers the question on which Tier I is coming over. As for Tier II, I hate to do this Matt, but we may need your Major Ray down here. We've already had 5 or 6 HVPs show up, and of course, the wartime photos aren't much help. We've got the call out to several other surviving witnesses but it's gonna take time, I figure a fighter jock's got her own transport.

Word is I am here for the next six months. I am not going to be involved in trial support for these yahoos this time...just initial interrogation, ident and prisoner handling till the FBI or the Marshal's service comes to grab the schmoes. And, then back to civie street. My wife's handling the move...She'll do alright there, but she's bitching up a storm. Can't blame her really, a 45 year old staff Sergeant? Yeah, what short of this were they gonna do with me?

Matt Wiser

Panzerfaust, as soon as I get a formal request for her, I'll send Major Ray down ASAP. Were any of these...creatures running the Mariel, Holguin, or Isle of Pines POW prisons? If so, she'll happily fly down to Key West (or wherever) to ID these scum-suckers. I can wrangle things so that she can fly down there in her F-15E if necessary-normally that's frowned on, but in this case, an exception can be made.

Raoul, eh? Well, half of the Cuban cabal is better than none at all. Now, if the SSE Teams got their hands on documents....at least that Radio Havana "Comedy Hour" is off the air-permanently. Unless, of course, those who escaped to Caracas start up one down there...ugh.

One thing Keegan says about PRAIRIE FIRE: seems that every 200 miles or so, Sixth Army out of New Mexico and Fifth Army in Kansas-Missouri-Oklahoma, literally ran out of gas. Now I know why we weren't tasked with hitting ComBloc fuel dumps: the Army and Marines wanted them intact for their own use.

Panzerfaust 150

Let's just say this much, their resumes suggest they know each other. I can't say more than that..but till we get an official "that's him", we can't release him to the Marshals or the FBI. As for requests, my Camp Commander said a request should reach you in 24-48 hrs. Don't worry about clearance for her to take her bird down..the orders are going to be marked "fastest available transport." Yeah, we need her down here that bad. Also, you might wanna make sure she isn't packing. Not that I'd object, but the FBI might whine if we give em a dead HVP.

Pyro

Matt Wiser said: It's not just that particular Commie-kisser, but there were quite a few who fled there postwar, either one step ahead of the FBI, or because their leftie views made them very unpopular here, and to quote said Commie-lover, "I need to go somewhere more hospitable, where my Progressive views are welcome instead of despised." Well, cheering on the enemy while in a friendly country that sent what troops and supplies they could to the West Coast sure made you one to be despised. The Aussies banned him from entering the country, and the Kiwis had him under close survelliance, the whole time, but never could get enough to put cuffs on him. His radio show from Havana is probably enough to send him away for a long, long, time. You'd never believe how many times in the UCLA Free-Speech Area this idiot attracted a crowd-and more often than not, angry vets would show up to give him an "attitude adjustment", much to the cheers of the crowd. Fortunately, he never had more than a handful of students who parroted his drivel.

Speaking of "Chuckles", does anyone know what he said about labor camps and the reprisals on his radio show? I wouldn't be surprised if he's
a denier.

gtrof

Matt Wiser said: Hey gtrof, glad to see you back: before you went down to Havana, we were talking about PRAIRIE FIRE: the Battle of Wichita and the first successful U.S. counteroffensive in Spring-Summer '87. Any fond or poignant memories from that one? That was the first time that the feeling "We're going to win", was really sinking in.

Matt I think some wires got crossed, I didn't go down to Havana. After some mandatory time in the reserves I got out. Like I said before one war was enough for me. BTW I've pegged the local vets around here and we've assembled some care packages for you guys who are deployed. Also we made sure there were some 'special' ones

Anyway PRAIRIE FIRE...I switched from loader to gunner during that one. 2nd ACR attacked down US 96 near Mount Hope, NNW of Wichita. We were the screening force for 1st Armored. I spent most of that one slamming SABOT and HEAT rounds into the breach of our 105. After we made a hole for First Tank's lead brigade we acted as the right flank guard. Stopped and set up a temp defense at Andale.

That's when the F**K Up began. Our ammo and fuel got lost somewhere in 1st AD's rear, so we had about half a basic load. Just barely enough time to transfer rounds to the read rack. If that wasn't bad enough, here comes Air Ivan. Four Su-15s swept overhead. I was in the tank working on the radios when they hit. Cluster bombs going off everywhere. My TC manages to get back and tells us the gunner is gone. That's where I'm ordered into the seat.

I had some basic gunnery training thanks to our old Spec 4. He said it was encase he ever got hit Anyway arty starts coming in next. Fifteen minutes later a Soviet MRR attacks. That was one of our less disciplined battles. We basically had time to set up a fire plan, not much else. I killed three tanks and four PCs that night. Bradleys took care of most of the dismounts and their tracks BTRs and some BMPs. The troop knocked out about a battalion's worth of stuff.

But that wasn't the end of it, we got hit again next morning and again in the afternoon. I don't know how she did it but our S4 worked some miracles and got us some more ammo and a little fuel. Which we used in the final showdown outside Colwich. Matt you talked about the feeling that we were going to win the war? That's were we felt it. 2nd ACR, and a task force from 1st Armored got hit by the depleted but still strong 4th Guards Tank Division. Top of the line kit, T-80s and BMP-2s. We slugged it out for four hours, and then used our last bit of fuel to attack. That's when it happened for me.

We clashed head on with a tank regiment. It was like a mini Kursk, I killed a T-80 at five hundred meters. Some guys did it even closer. But after that we passed through their burning regiment and there was more of us then them....man it ran through us like electricity. We took everything they threw at us and held, out of fuel and bullets but held. Then to top it off, aircraft flying west to bomb the shit out of the guys who ran....man.

Before that we were kind of just moving from one fight to the next, but after that it was we are going to win this thing. Every battle we win, means were a little closer to the Gulf.

EDIT: Oh and forgot to say, Bravo Juliet to you guys in Cuba!

Matt Wiser

Panzerfaust, don't worry about her not packing. She wants to see those guys on the end of a rope or posing for a firing squad. Anyway, the orders just came in for her to get to NAS Key West "by fastest available transportation", and the clearances to use her Strike Eagle came with 'em. Major Ray will be there tomorrow morning: Watch for an F-15E with a tailcode marked HR (Hill Reserve); that'll be her. Long black hair, and if there was a movie about her experiences, I'd cast Demi Moore in that part-she is a looker.

That "Chuckles" show was more an apologia for the ComBloc than anything else. They didn't so much as deny what happened, they more or less justified everything that the ComBloc did, from the labor camps and the reprisals against civilians, to the Manhattan nuke, and even what that....slime Khvostov did in Houston. Glad it's off the air-for good. At least we've got all the tapes (either the NSA monitors or the actual Cuban ones now that we're in Havana), and the people who did that show are going to have some explaining to do in front of a jury.

While seeing the bug-out from Santa Fe and Taos was the first real sign for me that we were going to win, once III Corps hit the Texas State Line on I-40 did it really sink in. Our ALO sent us a pic with him and his ETACs standing next to the sign on the interstate that still said "Welcome to Texas", and that clinched it. (The burned-out T-72 and BMP next to them was a nice addition, I thought)

Pyro

Given how he tried to defend slavery, rape, torture, and murder, it's scary to think of what Chuckles' idea of "progress" is, isn't it?

Just to steer the topic back to Cuba, I've been hearing rumors that Raul Castro was killed on CBC News World. Granted I think they are only that, rumors, I'm kind of hoping he's alive so he can stand trial and languish in a dank cell for the rest of his life.

Matt Wiser

Yeah, if that's their idea of "progress"....some of 'em on the show justified ComBloc conduct as part of the "maintenance of law and order" in occupied territory, or some similar nonsense. Yeah, killing a farm family that sheltered a pair of downed pilots (as happened in my E&E), was "law and order." Right. Whoever gave the orders at the top for such behavior forfeited his right to live.

If Trekchu's right, and Raoul is in our hands, I'm sure the DIA, CIA, FBI, and a whole host of interested parties want to have numerous conversations with the man. It'll be interesting to see if he's got any loyalty to his brother, wherever he is. CNN showed a beach party in Miami an hour or so ago: lots of fireworks, U.S. and Cuban flags, and lots of exiles shouting for joy. Some want to go back and help rebuild Cuba, but many just want to see their friends and relatives they had to leave behind and help them get back on their feet. The lunatic in Caracas just declared five days of national mourning for the loss of Cuba, or so CNN says. That blowhard...if we weren't busy cleaning up die-hards in Cuba and helping the provisional government, I'd send some B-1s down there to shut his radio and TV up-permanently.

Keegan's next chapter deals with the Northern Campaign: the invasion of Alaska and the drive through Canada towards the U.S. border. Where terrain and lack of supply was just as much a danger to the invaders as American and Canadian defenders, if not more so.

Panzerfaust: Major Ray will be wheels-up at 0700 MDT. Hope you don't mind if she brings her WSO along-solo flights in a Strike Eagle are unheard of. Besides, she may need a shoulder to cry on or a steady hand to hold if things get too....emotional.

trekchu

Matt Wiser said: If Trekchu's right, and Raoul is in our hands, I'm sure the DIA, CIA, FBI, and a whole host of interested parties want to have numerous conversations with the man. It'll be interesting to see if he's got any loyalty to his brother, wherever he is.

Oh we have Raoul alright. I went to visit him a couple of minutes ago, and thanks to being an 'old' vet the guards left me alone with him. Now I only have to find an icepack for my right hand somewhere...

Matt Wiser said: CNN showed a beach party in Miami an hour or so ago: lots of fireworks, U.S. and Cuban flags, and lots of exiles shouting for joy. Some want to go back and help rebuild Cuba, but many just want to see their friends and relatives they had to leave behind and help them get back on their feet. The lunatic in Caracas just declared five days of national mourning for the loss of Cuba, or so CNN says. That blowhard...if we weren't busy cleaning up die-hards in Cuba and helping the provisional government, I'd send some B-1s down there to shut his radio and TV up-permanently.

Who says we don't? I for one saw some flying south over Gitmo...

Pyro

So Trekchu, how satisfying was your visit?

trekchu

Pyro said: So Trekchu, how satisfying was your visit?

Very, very satisfying. And somehow no one can remember I was even there.

[lordroel]

From page 41

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: Panzerfaust: Major Ray will be wheels-up at 0700 MDT. Hope you don't mind if she brings her WSO along-solo flights in a Strike Eagle are unheard of. Besides, she may need a shoulder to cry on or a steady hand to hold if things get too....emotional.

She just got here..we're gonna start her tomorrow. I always like to start witnesses with a clear head and some coffee. In any case, she might like some time to decompress. Useful for witness IDs. She won't be in the same room with them, her sake and theirs...though their sakes only matter till the guilty verdict. She ID's 'em and the FBI grab him and mirandize them, then it's a van ride to the Federal Courthouse in Miami. We've already sent off four HVPs this way, and another 15 just arrived last night...including a "dinged" Raoul. He's going somewhere else. I can't say. Or, what we're gonna ask.

Matt Wiser

Her WSO is a pretty cool customer, so he'll be able to help out if need be. You might want to try and find her book: Amazon has it, btw, and so does Borders; it's called Four Years in Hell: A POW's Story of Survival in Cuba. She had a tie to the two who successfully escaped: she was in on the plan, and helped fool the guards into thinking the two escapees were still in camp. Major Ray thinks the reason for her being sent to the Isle of Pines was her involvement in the escape. Two-plus years in solitary and frequent....abuse was the "reward" for that. The POWs in Cuba didn't even know the war was over until they were put onto several airliners and flown to Costa Rica for the exchange in March of '90.

One thing CNN has been showing is the old Soviet SIGINT facility at Lourdes: that place was bombed several times during the war, and Ivan kept repairing it, and even expanded it postwar. Now that we're there, a proper demo job can be conducted, after it's been gone over with the proverbial fine-toothed comb, of course. No doubt the staff hopped an Il-76 and flew down to Caracas, because the embed was saying that the Marines who took the place found nobody there. Not even Cubans.

Keegan says in the chapter on Alaska that, according to his Russian Republic sources, was executed better than the Soviets expected. That, and catching both AF wings in Alaska on the ground with multiregiment Backfire strikes made sure the airborne and amphibious landings went off smoothly. And the Soviets made sure that they couldn't put more troops into Alaska than could be supplied-until the Politburo insisted on accelerating the drive down into Canada to get to the Canada-U.S. border. Remember that the attacking force at the border literally ran out of gas while on the attack short of the border, and that let VII and XI Corps, along with the Canadians, push them back. The scorched refinery policy the Canadians did had a lot to do with it, the Russians say, for Ivan counted on that refinery and fuel storage to replenish for the push to the border, and hopefully, across it.

Pyro

Indeed, it really hurt Alberta's economy in the long run (we got back up to pre-WWIII production levels only a couple years ago, and Japanese and European investment in the oil sands is helping a great deal) but at least stopped Ivan from crossing the 49th. People from Lethbridge all the way up to Grand Prairie tell me the Russians got so desperate, they siphoned the gas from any car they could find in town or on the highways. When the partisans got word of this they rigged some cars to give the Russians a nasty surprise when they opened the gas cap.
Last edited: Jul 22, 2009

Matt Wiser

Ouch! Talk about a nasty surprise. I imagine Ivan was not happy over that, or finding the refinery ablaze. Did you guys evac the refinery workers and their families a la NASA in Houston and DOE/Univ. of California in Los Alamos? The Russians would have been less than pleased at the refinery staff.... The Canadians had their own war-crimes trials, though I recall some of the top tier ones being tried down here for atrocities in both Alaska and Canada, and the Candians sent their own JAG people to help with those prosecutions. (it sure beat trying someone twice) CNN had quite a lot on those, ISTR. And didn't the Canadians reinstate the death penalty not only for war criminals, but for high-profile collaborators? I do remember hearing about a few executions north of the border. Especially for the massacre north of Vancouver at that Canadian naval base-there were a few Russians who wound up posing for a firing squad over that unpleasantness, or so CNN said.

Pyro

Most of them made it out of Edmonton but the few that couldn't get out in time were given the usual punishment of torture or firing squad. There's even a harrowing account where some Russian soldiers doused a 12-year-old boy in gasoline and lit him on fire in front of his father's eyes. Needless to say the soldiers who committed that heinous act and survived the war found themselves on the wrong end of a noose, as did the high profile collaborators. Some left-leaning politicians in Ottawa did make a noise about reinstating they death penalty, but a few photos of the atrocities committed by Ivan and the cries for justice out West shut them up.

It kind of reminds me of what happened to my father. I said he was killed in the initial bombardment of Lethbridge earlier, but the honest truth is that I don't really know. Not many people from the old neighborhood are still around and the accounts vary. A lady who lived down the street said he was given a bullet to the head as an example to the survivors, while a friend of his said we was sent to a labor camp in the Crowsnest where he was worked to death like several others. It's just easier to say he was killed when they shelled the city. In any case, I hope the bastards who killed them got what they deserved.

sloreck

Has anybody heard the rumor that they have caught that leftie film maker who fled to Cuba? He's the one who made a film about auto workers before the war with a title like "GM and exploitation" that compared the "oppressed" American auto workers to the "empowered" workers at the Togliatti plant in the USSR. During the war he made several propaganda shorts for the Sovs shwoing Bloc troops being welcomed as "liberators", and American "volunteers" helping troops etc. Since the war he has done several showing the "victories" of revolutionary socialism including one on socialism & health care. With what I've seen with the CA folks evaluating the Cuban health system what a joke, top flight facilities for the party big wigs, 3rd world for the rest.

Even under the occupation he was a really overweight dude who always looked like he was 3 days past needing a shave, believe his name was Moore.

BlackWave

sloreck said: Has anybody heard the rumor that they have caught that leftie film maker who fled to Cuba? He's the one who made a film about auto workers before the war with a title like "GM and exploitation" that compared the "oppressed" American auto workers to the "empowered" workers at the Togliatti plant in the USSR. During the war he made several propaganda shorts for the Sovs shwoing Bloc troops being welcomed as "liberators", and American "volunteers" helping troops etc. Since the war he has done several showing the "victories" of revolutionary socialism including one on socialism & health care. With what I've seen with the CA folks evaluating the Cuban health system what a joke, top flight facilities for the party big wigs, 3rd world for the rest.

Even under the occupation he was a really overweight dude who always looked like he was 3 days past needing a shave, believe his name was Moore.
OOC:Yay, more right wing wish fufilment...:rolleyes:

IC:Well, according to the new Cuban government he ended up going off to South America somewhere. God knows where he is now. As for Cuban healthcare, it was actually pretty nice before the war...although afterwards with their economy going down it did start to slip--I mean, even the righties admit our healthcare system's a joke compared to the Euros and Japs, considering our economic problems--but it still beat it...but I wouldn't put that much stock in CA says, they've been woefully underbudget for years, and they mostly just pander to what DC tells them. Some places online have it better.

Anyway, looks like they're gonna take their time changing the economy in Cuba--they're ultimately aiming for something like what the PRC was planning. After all, considering the Eastern Euro countries initially just changed from corrupt communist shitholes with bad living conditions to corrupt capitalist shitholes with bad living conditions, that's only sensible.

BTW, who remembers the skirmish near Key West following the official end of the war? It was between some Cuban and South Am remnants who refused to give up. They did give us quite a trashing before the cruise missles came out...
Sucking the USA into a black hole? Mutated German tanks? All in a day's work here...

Matt Wiser

Wasn't that when a couple of Cuban FACs raided the Florida Coast? They sank a Coast Guard Cutter, shot up a bunch of fishing boats, and scared the hell out of everyone from Key West to Fort Lauderdale. Then they got sent to Davy Jones' Locker by carrier air from Eisenhower....the survivors were fished out of the water and tried for piracy IIRC, since their activities were after the official end of the war. No wonder the Cuban Navy stayed close to home ports after that unpleasantness, Fidel's howling notwithstanding.

Panzerfaust, how'd Major Ray do today? I haven't heard from her yet, so I presume she's still ID'ing people, or trying to, anyway. I've heard on CNN that other ex-POWs are being asked to go down to Florida to help with the war-crimes people, so she won't be the only one.

I've been wondering what happened to that blowhard. If he got caught, there's a treason trial in the works. There's no statute of limitations on treason, so shoving his fat ass into Federal District Court shouldn't be too much of a problem. Was he a traitor? Simple: look at his waistline. He was living pretty well in occupied territory while most people were lucky to get two meals a day (if that). He had to be in cahoots with the ComBloc in one way or another.

BlackWave

Well, unless the Cubans on our side are lying, and they've got no reason to do so, he's likely hanging out from anywhere from Columbia to Argentina. The CIA's not going to risk international incidents over some fat filmmaker who hasn't been seen in decades, and they're underfunded and understaffed as it is. I mean, really, there's no harm he and the other lefties can really do. Let them fade away into some jungle--they get to ponder their lives, we get them out of our hair.
Sucking the USA into a black hole? Mutated German tanks? All in a day's work here...

Panzerfaust 150

Location:Washington DC...We HAD a football team, now it's a
OOC: BlackWave, CA is Army civil affairs (I didn't think the USMC had CA units), not California.

Major Ray's just come off her session. I gave her and her wingman keys to a HMMWV and pointed them in the direction of downtown. I think she wants to find a nice quiet bar and a chance to have a stiff drink from when we last spoke. She ID'd six really bad people, including the "Marquis d' Mariel". Little SOB was begging us NOT to turn him over to the Marshals..fat chance. I think she's headed back to you tomorrow. Give her a chance to sleep off a really epic drunk..I have a standing invite to join them soon as my day's over. As for other ex-POWs, we have about 20 here now, they're practically holding a convention in the mess hall. They're all pretty happy to see these bozos get theirs. As for Moore...well, he's in our "Gold Book", mainly because he filmed executions. He's not going to see the inside of a courtroom. Yeah, it's punitive. Tough noogies. Considering some of his "body of work" includes that and accompanying the SAF on night firebomb raids of St Louis, Lima and Denver, I really don't care what happens to him. They may have done so already, considering we had some very tired folks from "over the fence" recover here...I can only imagine they took someone out, considering what little I overheard in the mess hall, and the fact they deplaned a few body bags...but didn't report any casualties.

BlackWave

OOC:California? I didn't mean that...either way, the statement still makes sense.
Sucking the USA into a black hole? Mutated German tanks? All in a day's work here...

Matt Wiser

I got a call from her; yeah, she'll be back at Hill tomorrow afternoon sometime. Something about sleeping in and the 12-hour rule. I gather she ID'd the....animals who used her, so to speak. One thing she says in her book, once she got to the Isle of Pines, it was solitary, torment, and terror. No work details like in the other POW camps, this was a punishment camp, and the Cubans made sure of it. 26 months in a 6x6 cell, no light other than through the small window, poor food, and guards who delighted in their jobs. No news from the outside, except from new arrivals. And then there were the interrogators.....wanting to know about her part in the escape, POW organization, etc. They got what they wanted eventually, even if it was out of date.

Were the two escapees down there? I imagine they were in demand because of the staff at the Mariel POW camp (where they escaped from) being in custody. The Grim Reaper wasn't the commandant, but the senior interrogator/political indoctronator. There were others there just as vicious.

You might be interested in Keegan's chapter on the Alaska-Canada campaign: he has a sub-chapter titled "Last Stand of the Sixth" about the 6th ID in the Yukon, and their getting ground to pieces. They took a lot with 'em, though. It took a year to get that division reconstituted at Fort Drum, ISTR from other books. The Canadians managed to get what was left of the division out of the Yukon, and down to the lower 48.

At least the Comedy Hour is off the air-for good. The ones we did catch, well, they'll have to explain themselves to a jury. As for the ones who got away, well, better luck next time.

sloreck

Marines do have CA units, not as many or as robust as the army. Even before the war Cuban health care was like all combloc healthcare - top of the line for the elite, 3rd world for the rest.

As senior doc with IIMEF, had some unpleasant duty after my brief trip to Havana, had to work with the graves people who were trying to properly honor those who were dumped in mass graves with ID's & a proper burial. We found a separate burial site with about 200-300 bodies in it. All had their hands bound behind their backs with razor wire, and had been shot in the back of the head. Still had uniforms and dog tags on. All were officers, Marine and Navy, and there were at least 20 nurses among the dead - 2 of whom I knew from before the war. Seems someone in Cuba read about the Katyn Forest. NCIS and some dudes in unmarked uniforms wearing wrap around Oakleys are all over that site. Plane full of pathology specialists from AFIP arrived this afternoon....

Matt Wiser

I remember from the book Open Water that there was a massacre of POWs at Gitmo: the two escapees weren't sure on the details, as they were on a different part of the base when they were forced to surrender (one of them was a pilot in VC-10, but Cuban artillery took care of her TA-4J, the other one was an aircraft maintenance officer in the same squadron). Wasn't there a Navy ship in port there when the balloon went up? I've read of a destroyer tender being there (they put in to avoid a hurricane, only to wind up in a storm of red). There were some 400 Marines down there, plus about 1200 Navy, and civilian contractors, dependents, etc. Throw in the 1400 or so crew on the destroyer tender Puget Sound and things added up. About 20% of the Puget Sound's crew were female, btw. Major Ray says in her book and in conversations with me that the POW population in Mariel was about half Navy, with the rest Marines, a few Air Force like herself, and some civilians from the base. The same ran in Holguin, but varied at the Isle of Pines, where hardcases were generally sent, regardless of service branch. She was one of the first Air Force women to fly combat, and one of the first to be shot down (in an F-4D over Cuba, 6 March 1986). Her male backseater died in captivity. Four years and 17 days....She was out of the Air Force for a while after coming home, but got back into the AF Reserve about ten years ago, which explains why she's just a major-if she had stayed on active duty, she'd be a Colonel by now.

Whoever gave the orders for that massacre ought to pay-dearly. One more thing to ask Raoul about. Any news on how the SSE Teams are doing with their documents search, and how the new Cuban Provisional Government is helping overall?

One thing Keegan's hit on in his look in the Alaska campaign is how fast the U.S. put in Special Operations people into Alaska: there were a pair of converted missile submarines used as SEAL delivery platforms that wound up delivering SEALs and Army SF into Alaska and British Columbia on a regular basis, and extracting people that Ivan shouldn't get his hands on. Too many coves, fijords, and inlets for the Soviet Navy to patrol, much less interdict. They did try minefields, but when one of the subs sank a minelayer...With Mark-48s reserved for the fast-attack boats, they had older Mark-37s. Two of them did the job just as well....U.S.S. Sam Houston was the Pacific Fleet boat, and U.S.S. John Marshall was the Atlantic Fleet one. (she did a lot of work on the Texas and Louisiana Gulf Coasts later on, as well as inserting/extracting SEALs against Cuba on occasion) There are even stories of SEAL raids on the Soviet Far East, as well as intelligence-gathering, but you know the sub guys: they don't call them the "Silent Service" for nothing.

Panzerfaust 150

Location:Washington DC...We HAD a football team, now it's a
Yeah, the "famous duo" is down here and they're actually in pretty high spirits..orders are to keep chickenshit to a minimum. Everyone's a professional here. We all went down to Downtown Key West. Now, a thing about Key West, the best bars in town serve those into "alternative lifestyles" Now, CID USUALLY frowns on this..but it's well known in Key West amongst the community...leave military alone. They're pretty appreciative. Wasn't that way BEFORE the war. But let's just say a lot of them came forward to do what they could to defend their homes. They formed a VERY good State Guard detachment, the rest formed air raid warden and auxiliary volunteer fire departments. 45 people from their community died in defense of their home.

They knew the POWs were in town...and everywhere we went, we could NOT pay for our drinks. Lots of hugs and thank yous, you'd think we just came back from Cuba. One guy comes up to us crying with some dogtags in his hands...he had more makeup than my wife. He says the dogtags were his brother's, an A-7 jock off of JFK. He was killed by ground fire during a raid on Mariel on 6 AUG 1985. He thanked us helping to maybe find what was left of his brother. He musta hugged every POW in the bar. As for him? He went to school after the war (He was 15 when the war ended) and became a prominent accountant in Key West.

Snowman23

Hey everyone, I haven't been able to check this in a while, but I was on the New Jersey when she got attacked by the Cubans. I reenlisted after reading through these stories, and they plopped me on what I do best: Shooting Big guns. They made me a officer in charge of gunnery. The bastards did nail us with a torp, but she took it alright. Then then ran me over to the Missouri as they needed a seasoned gun man, and we went south and bombarded positions around Havana in support of the Cuban rebels. Any of you guys see the news shots of the Missouri banging away at Cuban positions? Well I was the guy in charge of all that gunnery.

Matt Wiser

I'll bet Kelly Ann and the other ex-POWs are having a good time; after all, they deserve it. An unplanned reunion, and having their former tormentors now in cuffs and headed off to court is cause for a good party. As long as the ones who are still flying remember the 12-hour rule! The things you despised as a junior officer come back when you're a CO...sigh.

Glad to see Key West is another town where things have largely gone back to normal, or whatever normal is postwar. I've been there a couple of times in the '90s when playing with the 31st TFW at Homestead AFB, and flew out of NAS Boca Chica. Last time I was there, a Cuban MiG-23BN was still on the beach, where a Marine with a Stinger had nailed it (I wonder if it's still there), and the pilot had bailed out, but the locals said that a Tiger shark had gotten to him before the Coast Guard. And there were still Marine I-HAWK SAMs on the beachfront facing Cuba. They did have their hands full a few times with Cuban SOF and Naval Spetsnatz, I believe. They had a marker (or at least they did the last time I was there) where the two escapees had drifted ashore in that raft of theirs-the original is in the Museum at the Naval Academy, but a replica is supposed to be on display down there.

Any news on whether or not Raoul goes to Federal Court or a military tribunal? CNN and Fox are saying that the military wants to do the honors, but the Attorney General is arguing for proceedings in civilian court. Court TV had a debate on the issue, or so the Hill AFB legal officer said.

sloreck

Hope Raoul goes to a military tribunal. You know there will be some high powered leftie lawyers working for him, and the rules in a tribunal are stricter & don't allow for some of the shennanigans & theater that can happen in a trial like this. Besides he was taken down in Cuba - if he'd been arrested in the USA might be different.

Told my younger son (2nd marriage - wife & boys died in a camp)to take a trip to Cuba soon as things settle down a bit, he has his own shop making custom rods in Cali & there are some well preserved cars from the 50's in Havana - and the locals would be glad to sell them for US dollars and a chance to buy a contemporary car. It's one place where the locals want Detroit iron not Japanese or Korean.

Panzerfaust 150

I can't discuss what they're gonna do to Raoul...suffice it to say..it should please a LOT of you. Certain folks need to have a chat with him first. That's all I can say. As for me. I am being demobbed in a week or two..just got told today that they have an active duty NCO coming to replace me in about 10-15 days, soon as they can cut one loose. Thank god, my last war is over with.

That was your work Snow? I am sure the locals appreciated it. It looked good on CNN. Well, the usual suspects are squawking...Rump USSR, Venezuela, North Korea..and they're all acting as if we did it for the hell of it. The Rump USSR's demanding a UN Security Council meeting in Geneva to condemn us..they told them they'd "pencil it in". Sucks Ivan when you can't even get the UN to cover your ass anymore, don't it?

[lordroel]

From page 42

trekchu

I'm on the plane back to the states already.

Matt Wiser

Well done to those of you on your way back. Glad to see that you weren't needed any longer than was/is necessary. Panzerfaust, you guys checking out Sloreck's mass grave? Or is that the Marines' AOR?

Major Ray called: she'll be wheels up from NAS Boca Chica about 1600 EDT. Otherwise, she'd be in violation of the 12-hour rule. She did say things did get a little too wild about 0100: "If it shows up on the web, how'd we know there was someone at the bar with a camcorder?" It was a wet T-shirt contest, according to her WSO...ah, well. I asked her how things went, and she said, "Fine. I'll fill you in when I get back."

Raoul belongs in front of a military tribunal. No tolerance for the antics of lawyers there. Besides, who'd defend him anyway? If he was still around, Ramsey Clark sure would, but he had a run-in with an Su-17 during the invasion, remember? It'll probably be some JAG lawyer defending someone who he'd rather not.

Panzerfaust 150

Matt Wiser said: ↑Well done to those of you on your way back. Glad to see that you weren't needed any longer than was/is necessary. Panzerfaust, you guys checking out Sloreck's mass grave? Or is that the Marines' AOR?

Major Ray called: she'll be wheels up from NAS Boca Chica about 1600 EDT. Otherwise, she'd be in violation of the 12-hour rule. She did say things did get a little too wild about 0100: "If it shows up on the web, how'd we know there was someone at the bar with a camcorder?" It was a wet T-shirt contest, according to her WSO...ah, well. I asked her how things went, and she said, "Fine. I'll fill you in when I get back."

Well, lemme just say it was a reasonably well behaved...but debaucherous blowout. They needed it. A lot of those folks were holding a lot in for a long time. Funny thing is...they're talking about a reunion next year. And I somehow got invited..my liver is going to sue for divorce. Go easy on your people, I can say they defended the honor of the Air Force well. Priceless was the Karaoke hour....

In any event, Cuba is a USMC/AFPI matter for now. I got asked to be trial support, but it was phrased as "we're asking you as a first choice, but we understand if you say no". Sorry guys, I see a lot of the cases and crimes in my nightmares. I can't do it again. In some ways, it was worse than the war. Especially Khvostov. That was a case where when it was over, everybody in the courtroom, including the jury found the nearest watering hole to have a stiff drink, and then some.

Matt Wiser

As long as they successfully defended the Air Force's Honor, rest assured any reprimand will be verbal and mild. Besides, one of the enlisted guys (he's a junior at Utah State) found the video on the web. Now you guys know why I'd cast Demi Moore as Major Ray in any movie-she's a looker. Just ignore the scars on her back and the rope scars on her arms, though. They do show up on the video. She landed about an hour ago, and I asked her if she wanted to talk, and she said, "Not now, Colonel, if you don't mind. I want to go home and sleep. Tomorrow, though." And I told her, "Major, if you need to talk about anything related to this, my office door is always open."

I don't blame you a bit for turning that down. There does come a time when enough's enough. Let somebody else handle this one. Sloreck: were the bodies people from the base itself, or from the destroyer tender?

Any news on how the SSE Teams did on the documents hunt? I'm sure Fidel had a destruct plan JIC we invaded, but knowing how Communist governments work, they had multiple copies, and so....

We had a laugh in the wing office at Hill watching the CNN report on the UN. The Rump USSR, NK, and Venezuela trying to get a Security Council meeting, and practically being told off. The report also said that the Cuban UN mission all packed up and left for who knows where, so who'd tell the Cuban side anyway? There's how many vetoes of any resolution anyway-us, the Brits, French, Germans, Japanese, and maybe South Africa, so...back to the drawing board, Ivan.

Snowman23

I got some shore leave in Havana, you wouldn't believe how they treat us! Especially when they found out we where on the Missouri. They practically treated us like gods. One man, who spoke some English, told how it was seeing the Missouri's guns demolish a few Cuban government buildings that gave them the gusto to start the revolution. I feel damn proud.

sloreck

Matt:
The forensic pathologists from AFIP & Dover are working on identifying the bodies of the folks who were executed, as well as from the mass graves of those who were apparently killed during the attack in the more "normal" way & buried in the known mass graves. This will take some time. I expect that we'll find the officers were from the base and the tender. Whoever is going through records will need to check carefully as I have a gut feeling that there will be some officers not accounted for who may have been shipped out of Cuba to elsewhere (USSR) to be specially squeezed like the NVN was rumored to have done with B52 aircrew captured but never on any list.

We found evidence at the base hospital & an auxiliary hospital that when the places were overrun that all the wounded and staff were shot where they were. Since our enemies never seem to respect the red cross, thats why I have had (since 3 weeks after the invasion back in the 80s) a .38 S&W chiefs special in an ankle holster in addition to my .45 can't see it under bloused cami trousers.

Good news is that I'll be home within a couple of weeks, plenty of time to get my books & start reading for the fall semester.

BlackWave

Snowman23 said: ↑I got some shore leave in Havana, you wouldn't believe how they treat us! Especially when they found out we where on the Missouri. They practically treated us like gods. One man, who spoke some English, told how it was seeing the Missouri's guns demolish a few Cuban government buildings that gave them the gusto to start the revolution. I feel damn proud.

You must be lucky, because according to all accounts the majority of the population is mightily pissed off. Several Marines on patrol have been picked off by sniper fire, and more have gone missing, which is why they're going to be restricted to the main base(s). Wouldn't be suprised if there are some happy we've turned up, though. Oh, and I think the Missouri's going to regret blowing up those buildings--the Cubans are going to make us pay for the damage, and I'm afraid that legally we have to oblidge them--it'd be hypocritical not to. That captain may see a few zeroes subtracted from his salary...

OOC:It is more likely than not that the majority of Cuba would be pissed off that a foreign body they've been taught to hate, even more so in a TL like this, just invaded their nation...
Last edited: Jul 24, 2009
Sucking the USA into a black hole? Mutated German tanks? All in a day's work here...

Matt Wiser

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few die-hards loyal to the old regime. But wasn't one of the buildings the Mighty Mo blasted the Ministry of Interior? I don't think anyone in Havana is going to be sorry the Secret Police HQ ate some 16-inch.

Well, I had a long talk with Major Kelly Ann Ray today. I told my ops officer to keep my office door shut, and gave orders not to be disturbed. She had a lot that she wanted to talk about, even though nearly all of it's in the book. Being used as slave labor in Mariel and Holguin, mainly on sugarcane farms, having guards "entertain themselves" with the female prisoners and not being able to do a thing about it, then being caught up in the escape aftermath and sent to the Isle of Pines. Two-plus years in a 6x6 cell, one bath a month, constant interrogations, physical and....other abuse, you name it. No contact with the Red Cross like the EPWs we held, thus no contact with family, and no news from the outside, except from new arrivals. She thought that the plane ride to Costa Rica was the POWs' being sent to Russia, and only when they saw the Red Cross flag and the C-141s on the tarmac did they realize that it was over and they were on their way home. Kelly Ann was practically in tears when she finished, saying that seeing those Cubans again had brought back some very unpleasant memories. I told her the same thing she told me when I asked her how she coped, "The best revenge is to live well." She smiled, and asked "What's next, Colonel?" Her eyes lit up when I told her Mark Wahlberg is coming tomorrow for his "Hollywood ride", and asked if she'd be the pilot. "He'll be here at 0900 tomorrow, and give him the best ride in a Strike Eagle you can, Major." She said that she'd be glad to, and that would be a good way of getting back in her normal rythm.

This one's for our Canadian friends: Keegan's Russian sources don't say why Ivan went for Vancouver in the Spring-Summer of '86, instead of trying to push south of the U.S.-Canadian border again. All they say is that STAVKA decided on Vancouver, and the theater commander up north, not wanting to be "retired", went ahead with it, despite what Keegan says were "considerable misgivings." The man was "retired" anyway, when two Soviet Armies (5th, and 7th Guards) failed to take the city. Anyone up there have a guess as to why the Sovs tried an urban fight and then the failed amphib on Seattle, when their best chance was to push south of the border and finish cutting the U.S. in half? I Corps (2nd, 9th, 25th IDs, plus 3rd Marine Division and the Idaho Guard's 116th ACR, Washington's 81st Mech Brigade, and the Oregon Guard's 41st Infantry Brigade) did a lot of work up there.

Snowman23

Matt Wiser said: ↑I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few die-hards loyal to the old regime. But wasn't one of the buildings the Mighty Mo blasted the Ministry of Interior? I don't think anyone in Havana is going to be sorry the Secret Police HQ ate some 16-inch.

Yeah we hit that, some AA positions, and a few barracks of Presidential Guard troops.

BlackWave

Matt Wiser said: I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few die-hards loyal to the old regime. But wasn't one of the buildings the Mighty Mo blasted the Ministry of Interior? I don't think anyone in Havana is going to be sorry the Secret Police HQ ate some 16-inch.

True, but some civilian structures were also severely damaged and there were injuries, so that kinda ruined the effect for some Havanans. Still, it looks like that for Cubans life will just continue on as normal in time, just without having to look over your shoulder when you talk.

Sucking the USA into a black hole? Mutated German tanks? All in a day's work here...

Snowman23

BlackWave said: True, but some civilian structures were also severely damaged and there were injuries, so that kinda ruined the effect for some Havanans. Still, it looks like that for Cubans life will just continue on as normal in time, just without having to look over your shoulder when you talk.

Its unfortunate but we tried our very best to avoid Collateral Damage. Exactly what did we do? Any numbers. I feel terrible.

BlackWave

Snowman23 said: Its unfortunate but we tried our very best to avoid Collateral Damage. Exactly what did we do? Any numbers. I feel terrible.

Reportedly, a number of buildings around were damaged by the blast and debris. There's been an unconfirmed number of injuries, but if it's any consolation, I don't think there were any deaths. Still, I guess nobody's going to hang you over it--I suppose that now that victory's more or less ours you'll be returning home very soon for a hero's welcome.
Sucking the USA into a black hole? Mutated German tanks? All in a day's work here...

Kevin in Indy

Matt Wiser said: This one's for our Canadian friends: Keegan's Russian sources don't say why Ivan went for Vancouver in the Spring-Summer of '86, instead of trying to push south of the U.S.-Canadian border again. All they say is that STAVKA decided on Vancouver, and the theater commander up north, not wanting to be "retired", went ahead with it, despite what Keegan says were "considerable misgivings."

Yeah, if there was any reason besides logistics (although I am not sure they could have kept a good supply flow through there anyway) and vanity I would like to know about it.

Snowman23

BlackWave said: Reportedly, a number of buildings around were damaged by the blast and debris. There's been an unconfirmed number of injuries, but if it's any consolation, I don't think there were any deaths. Still, I guess nobody's going to hang you over it--I suppose that now that victory's more or less ours you'll be returning home very soon for a hero's welcome.

Oh that's good to hear. I have everything against the god damn barbarians the reds are, but innocent civilians I have no intentions of hurting.

Its strange though, there keeping Missouri on station, and they even said to prepare to set sail for a new destination in two days, but its not the states, the Captain, while he couldn't tell me exactly, told me to get ready for more combat and not homecoming. Any of you get anything similar? I'm wondering whats up....

BlackWave

Snowman23 said: Oh that's good to hear. I have everything against the god damn barbarians the reds are, but innocent civilians I have no intentions of hurting.

Its strange though, there keeping Missouri on station, and they even said to prepare to set sail for a new destination in two days, but its not the states, the Captain, while he couldn't tell me exactly, told me to get ready for more combat and not homecoming. Any of you get anything similar? I'm wondering whats up....

Most likely to Europe--I hear the Euros are offerng to sell us some of their fancy equipment. The rest of the fleet's coming home, as is the army, so I don't think we going on another crusade after this.

OOC:Just to avoid more wank. I mean, this thread has gone way off course...
Sucking the USA into a black hole? Mutated German tanks? All in a day's work here...

Snowman23

BlackWave said: Most likely to Europe--I hear the Euros are offerng to sell us some of their fancy equipment. The rest of the fleet's coming home, as is the army, so I don't think we going on another crusade after this.

OOC:Just to avoid more wank. I mean, this thread has gone way off course...

Ahh thanks Blackwave, you must have some good contacts. And for the combat I guess where doing some training exercises with the Limeys, Frogs, and Krauts. I'm excited to see how the war games would play out. I think the Euro forces are itching to try and "sink" Missouri after ran into there main fleet and slaughtered most of the Brits carriers and a few escorts at night and got out with only a few hits. I was on New Jersey during those games, we got it by two Exocets from a few lucky French birds from the Charles De Gualle that got through undetected form a radar hiccup and where declared sunk. Bastards. I don't think the judges have heard of the kinda hits Pittsburgh grade steel can take!

OCC: Fine, just thought I might see what else America could do....

BlackWave

Snowman23 said: Ahh thanks Blackwave, you must have some good contacts. And for the combat I guess where doing some training exercises with the Limeys, Frogs, and Krauts. I'm excited to see how the war games would play out. I think the Euro forces are itching to try and "sink" Missouri after ran into there main fleet and slaughtered most of the Brits carriers and a few escorts at night and got out with only a few hits. I was on New Jersey during those games, we got it by two Exocets from a few lucky French birds from the Charles De Gualle that got through undetected form a radar hiccup and where declared sunk. Bastards. I don't think the judges have heard of the kinda hits Pittsburgh grade steel can take!

OCC: Fine, just thought I might see what else America could do....
Well, this time they've got all those fancy new cruisers that, by all accounts, make our most advanced stuff look like rubber dingies. I mean, we're not exactly #1 any more, but let's show them there's life in the old Mis still. Hopefully they'll give you a chance and pit you against something your size--and then, show them what it's made of...
Sucking the USA into a black hole? Mutated German tanks? All in a day's work here...

Snowman23

BlackWave said: Well, this time they've got all those fancy new cruisers that, by all accounts, make our most advanced stuff look like rubber dingies. I mean, we're not exactly #1 any more, but let's show them there's life in the old Mis still. Hopefully they'll give you a chance and pit you against something your size--and then, show them what it's made of...

I don't care what any of these Techno freaks says, nothing is better then sending nine 16 inch shells down range at a target 20 miles away.....Damn the missiles, full speed ahead! My gun crew know what there doing, they are filled with men who fought in WWIII. Those bastards just have a leg up because they didn't have to spend so many funds on rebuilding infrastructure and such after the war....

Matt Wiser

Nuthin' wrong with letting the Navy have an exercise with the Germans, French, Italians, etc. We have 'em come over for Red Flag all the time-those Eurofighters can be nasty, but the F-22 guys and gals keep them off the strike birds for the most part. Sometimes they get sneaky, and divert the F-22s off strike escort, despite instructions to the contrary, and those Eurofighters and Rafales cause us a lot of trouble. I've been "shot down" by Eurofighters and Rafale in Red Flag more than once, unfortunately.

Keegan does suggest logistics as one possiblity in not going back to the U.S.-Canada border in that Spring-Summer of '86, but since the Russian Republic's own records are incomplete at best, we've only got guesswork. Unless the rump USSR dissolves and their archives open up, that is. But if logistics was the reason, why go further into British Columbia, where the roads and terrain favored the defender (and did), not to mention giving more fertile ground for guerilla activities? Unless someone in Moscow was taken with an attack of vanity....Or the Soviets were wary of what had happened the previous fall, perhaps, and didn't want to repeat the episode?

Panzerfaust 150

Location:Washington DC...We HAD a football team, now it's a
OOC: I am assuming the thread was set about 20 years after the end of WWIII, with certain assumptions. One, yeah, we aren't #1. but those that are aren't real eager to tangle with us. Two, Cuba's gonna be the only real dustup here. I did it because the US has an interest in resolving that situation, it was established earlier Castro was misbehaving and that well, he wasn't known historically for being ENTIRELY sensible. Look at his rash statements and requests in the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962. IIRC, Khrushchev was as nervous about Castro seizing the missiles as he was war with the US.

IC: I think it's just post Cuba jitters. Sounds mostly like maintain alert status and the like. I doubt anyone's going to war for Cuba. Hell, the die hards are going to fade away for the most part, as the plan I keep hearing is to pull out once we're done getting the bodies of our POWs out, and taking the reparations owed. Then, it's the new government's problem. We're staying in Gitmo, of course. I heard we "advised" the new government that there would be a Marine brigade in permanent residence.

As for exercises, yeah, the Europeans come to play every year. Some switch from REFORGER, eh? I hear we're providing the refs this year, so who knows...Mighty Mo might get to run amok! As for me, just got my demob orders...now to get a space available flight to Maxwell. Wife handled the move while I was gone. The new highways are amazing, nothing like the old ones....unending traffic jams, poor road maintenance. Much better now. Then again, wars tend to sometimes make that necessary.

Matt, thank Major Ray for us again. I thanked her on the flightline, she gave me a hug that if I wasn't a sturdy fellow, would have cracked a rib. She was tearing up a bit..mixed emotions, but she did the nation and the world a service. I think we're all happy to be done with the sewer rats that were the Cuban Communist Party.

And in a damn, I wish I didn't have to say this: The comedy hour's back, with the filmmaker everyone loves to hate in Caracas. Let him rot...he knows damn well we can snatch him anytime we like....

[lordroel]

From page 43

Snowman23

Panzerfaust 150 said: And in a damn, I wish I didn't have to say this: The comedy hour's back, with the filmmaker everyone loves to hate in Caracas. Let him rot...he knows damn well we can snatch him anytime we like....

Maybe the Mighty Mo can make a side trip and blow his ass right to hell while hes palling around with his other commie buddies.... :mad:

Pyro

Matt Wiser said: Keegan does suggest logistics as one possiblity in not going back to the U.S.-Canada border in that Spring-Summer of '86, but since the Russian Republic's own records are incomplete at best, we've only got guesswork. Unless the rump USSR dissolves and their archives open up, that is. But if logistics was the reason, why go further into British Columbia, where the roads and terrain favored the defender (and did), not to mention giving more fertile ground for guerilla activities? Unless someone in Moscow was taken with an attack of vanity....Or the Soviets were wary of what had happened the previous fall, perhaps, and didn't want to repeat the episode?

That always made me scratch my head, it would've been easier to send more of their forces through the Alaska Highway and head for the border via Alberta than slog through the mountainous terrain of British Columbia and fight a bloody stalemate in Vancouver. Then again, maybe Ivan didn't think we Canadians would fight as well as we did because of the massive cuts Trudeau made to the military in the years before the war. The war pretty much made him one of the reviled men in Canada.

Panzerfaust 150 said: And in a damn, I wish I didn't have to say this: The comedy hour's back, with the filmmaker everyone loves to hate in Caracas. Let him rot...he knows damn well we can snatch him anytime we like....

Maybe he'll conveniently "disappear" in his sleep one of this days.

Matt Wiser

Wars do have that effect, unfortunately. Old-timers here in Utah tell me the I-15 between Ogden and Provo going through Salt Lake was often a nightmare. Now it's eight lanes each way, traffic flows pretty smoothly, and it's kept in tiptop shape. The same goes for I-84 in both Utah and Idaho-three lanes each way, but still, a lot better than it was prewar.

I'll pass that along, Panzerfaust. She did fill you in on the story of her captivity, I trust? Find her book at Amazon or Borders, it can bring you to tears at times, but it is a testimony of the will to survive. She did say there were a couple of times when she thought she wouldn't make it. But she wanted to survive. And so she did. Major Ray wanted that meeting in my office; seeing some of those...creatures again was a bit too much, even with that night on the town-it did make her forget for a few hours. The "Marquis of Mariel" was one among many that she wishes to see die slowly, and I imagine she didn't sleep much last night, and just had to talk.
She remembers that scum-sucker coming into her cell and...entertaining himself-several times. She told me that if it wasn't for the two-way mirror, she may not have been able to handle it. Thanks for making it as easy as possible: when the Air War College has a break, come on up to Hill or Mountain Home. At least that ex-SNAF guy runs a pretty great ski operation in Park City.

Ugh....that fatso made it to Caracas? There's gotta be a way to shut him up-permanently. At least the leftie profs who ran the previous show in Havana are now in the hands of the FBI (most of them, anyway). I saw that ex-UCLA one doing a perp walk on CNN; I imagine the jury isn't going to be as tolerant of his views as the Cubans were. And what happened to Fidel? He hasn't shown up in Caracas yet, and I imagine the Marines and/or the 82nd Airborne are checking out his old guerilla haunts in the Sierra Maestra Mountains.

BlackWave

Matt Wiser said: Wars do have that effect, unfortunately. Old-timers here in Utah tell me the I-15 between Ogden and Provo going through Salt Lake was often a nightmare. Now it's eight lanes each way, traffic flows pretty smoothly, and it's kept in tiptop shape. The same goes for I-84 in both Utah and Idaho-three lanes each way, but still, a lot better than it was prewar.

I'll pass that along, Panzerfaust. She did fill you in on the story of her captivity, I trust? Find her book at Amazon or Borders, it can bring you to tears at times, but it is a testimony of the will to survive. She did say there were a couple of times when she thought she wouldn't make it. But she wanted to survive. And so she did. Major Ray wanted that meeting in my office; seeing some of those...creatures again was a bit too much, even with that night on the town-it did make her forget for a few hours. The "Marquis of Mariel" was one among many that she wishes to see die slowly, and I imagine she didn't sleep much last night, and just had to talk.
She remembers that scum-sucker coming into her cell and...entertaining himself-several times. She told me that if it wasn't for the two-way mirror, she may not have been able to handle it. Thanks for making it as easy as possible: when the Air War College has a break, come on up to Hill or Mountain Home. At least that ex-SNAF guy runs a pretty great ski operation in Park City.

Ugh....that fatso made it to Caracas? There's gotta be a way to shut him up-permanently. At least the leftie profs who ran the previous show in Havana are now in the hands of the FBI (most of them, anyway). I saw that ex-UCLA one doing a perp walk on CNN; I imagine the jury isn't going to be as tolerant of his views as the Cubans were. And what happened to Fidel? He hasn't shown up in Caracas yet, and I imagine the Marines and/or the 82nd Airborne are checking out his old guerilla haunts in the Sierra Maestra Mountains.

CNN just reported that captured prisoners confirmed he's not in the country. I doubt he'll announce his existence just yet; most likely keep quiet, or he'd have done so already. There are plenty of places he could have reached by now, and considering that the CIA hasn't really been the same since they had to start it over from scratch back at the end of the war he may as well stay there. He'll likely bite the dust in a couple of years naturally.

And fat boy's showed up? Ah well, let him cry. Nobody without a red armband's gonna listen to him anyway.
Sucking the USA into a black hole? Mutated German tanks? All in a day's work here...

Matt Wiser

Fatso can cry all he wants; there aren't that many "socialist paradises" left. What's left besides Caracas? Pyongyang and Moscow. At least down there, the weather's nice.

Hey sloreck, did the guys at Gitmo ever find who commanded the attack on the base? That's a fellow who would have a lot of questions to answer if we ever get our hands on him. Unless the DGI (Cuban intelligence) handled the..unpleasantness that we've dug up. Whoever gave the orders for that has a lot to answer for. I imagine that Raoul is being asked about this, along with many other incidents during the invasion.

Finally finished the Keegan chapter on the Alaska-Canada campaign. He correctly concludes that Vancouver was the Soviet Stalingrad. While it didn't exactly have the same end as the German experience on the Volga, lack of supply and reinforcement forced the Soviets to pull back, and any thought of a Spring-Summer offensive in '87 was just that: thought. Still, two MRDs were caught by I Corps as they did a rearguard, and 3rd Marine Division and the Canadians saw to it the survivors did get below the 49th Parallel-as EPWs. His Russian sources view the amphib attack on Seattle with contempt: The CINC-Soviet Navy tried to get in on the act, and steal some of the Army's thunder (and having a chance of doing what the Army had tried and failed to do was too good to pass up). Well, having a trained Naval Infantry Brigade and an MRD that was amphibious-oriented getting wiped out without even getting onto a beach will steal the thunder, without a doubt.

Matt Wiser

The next chapter deals with the international aspects of the war: how the U.S.'s allies responded (or failed to respond) to the invasion. A lot of that's already been discussed here, but there's some additional things that have come to light. First, the BND (West German Intelligence), despite being told by the Green-led government in Bonn not to do so, passed on intelligence to the U.S. via the West German Embassies in both Switzerland and Turkey. Apparently the BND had sources inside East Germany, and copies of Soviet after-action reports from North America were sent to the East Germans, and some of these reports found their way into BND hands, who then passed them onto the CIA or DIA (among other things). Second, the Middle East was still preoccupied with the Iran-Iraq War, and with Soviet arms deliveries cut off to the Iraqis, settled into a quagmire for both sides. American allies in the Middle East, notably the Israelis, Egyptians, Jordanians, and Saudis, provided what assistance they could, with the Israelis (with the roles reversed from 1973) sending arms, ammunition, and intelligence to the U.S., and allowing members of the IDF to go to the U.S. to fight. In addition, the Saudis and Gulf States continued selling oil to the U.S., as long as the tankers were escorted by the U.S. Navy, despite Soviet threats of "severe punishment." Finally, the reaction of America's allies in the Far East and Pacific is discussed, with the Aussies, Kiwis, ROKs, Thais, Filipinos, and notably, Japanese, doing whatever they could, despite the rumblings from Moscow against such activity. While the Japanese were technically neutrals, shipments of military-grade electronics, F-4 and F-15 fighters, tank and artillery ammunition, TOW missiles (bult by Fujitsu) and other weapons were sent, mostly clandestinely, but sometimes quite openly. The ROKs and Taiwan were more blatant, and their respective navies escorted ships bound for the U.S. to Okinawa, where the U.S. Pacific Fleet took over. Based on U.S., Taiwanese, and South Korean records, half of the small-arms, tank, and artillery ammunition used by the U.S. Sixth Army (Southwestern U.S.) and Eighth Army (Pacific Northwest) came from Far Eastern sources. Of course, F-5 and F-20 fighters came via Taiwan and South Korea, along with Taiwanese license-built M-60A3 tanks and M-113 APCs. The Thais couldn't contribute much in the way of troops, given as how the Vietnamese were across their border in Cambodia and Laos, but shipments of rice helped with food supplies, and the Filipinos sent a "volunteer" infantry brigade to the Pacific Northwest, just in time to take part in the Vancouver campaign, and fought in the Pacific NW to the end of the war. (Pyro, did anyone you know fight alongside the Filipinos? They were tough, by all accounts, especially the Filipino Marines-who had a habit of using bolo knives on sentries when raiding Soviets who were laagered up for the night....)

Snowman23

Matt Wiser said: Finally finished the Keegan chapter on the Alaska-Canada campaign. He correctly concludes that Vancouver was the Soviet Stalingrad. While it didn't exactly have the same end as the German experience on the Volga, lack of supply and reinforcement forced the Soviets to pull back, and any thought of a Spring-Summer offensive in '87 was just that: thought. Still, two MRDs were caught by I Corps as they did a rearguard, and 3rd Marine Division and the Canadians saw to it the survivors did get below the 49th Parallel-as EPWs. His Russian sources view the amphib attack on Seattle with contempt: The CINC-Soviet Navy tried to get in on the act, and steal some of the Army's thunder (and having a chance of doing what the Army had tried and failed to do was too good to pass up). Well, having a trained Naval Infantry Brigade and an MRD that was amphibious-oriented getting wiped out without even getting onto a beach will steal the thunder, without a doubt.

Oh yeah, the Pugent Sound Turkey Shoot. That was fun, blasting the commies transports with Iowa's 16 inchers at a distance of 2 miles. The bastards didn't even know what was hitting them. Sometimes for fun we loaded armor piercing and just watched them react to having holes 1 1/2 feet just popping up in the hull. The AP rounds just passed right through Transports and blew up after the fuse went off. I actually saw one go through one ship, then have its fuse go of as it hit another transport. The Red Navy, as much as Ivan might want to boast, did not stand a chance against the USN, because hurting us only makes us want to shove more firepower down your throat.

Matt Wiser

Snowman, did you see a half-dozen or so F-105s bombing and strafing the amphibs? If you did, that was the unit I fly with now: the 419th TFW. The Seattle Turkey Shoot (as they call it here) was the F-105's last hurrah, before they got F-4s via Japan. Wing HQ has a lot of gun-camera stills shot by the Thuds of ships being bombed, rocketed, and ripped up by 20-mm Vulcan fire. A lot of that 16-mm film has been converted to DVD, and the Hill Aerospace Museum shows some of it in their mini-theater. One of the Thuds that flew in Seattle is now on display at Boeing's Museum of Flight in Seattle, another is at the Hill Aerospace Museum, and another's at Fairchild AFB. All three have ship kills prominently displayed on the nose of the aircraft. One other thing that you might answer, Snowman, since you were there: It's said that the Navy and Coast Guard had a problem picking up Soviet survivors after it was all done. It seems those who made it to shore were set upon by angry locals and often wound up getting lynched. There were supposedly some incidents where the Coasties and the Navy had to keep survivors from such a fate, and a couple of them got ugly. Any truth to that, or just another wild story out of the war?

jacobus

Matt Wiser said: The next chapter deals with the international aspects of the war: how the U.S.'s allies responded (or failed to respond) to the invasion. A lot of that's already been discussed here, but there's some additional things that have come to light. First, the BND (West German Intelligence), despite being told by the Green-led government in Bonn not to do so, passed on intelligence to the U.S. via the West German Embassies in both Switzerland and Turkey. Apparently the BND had sources inside East Germany, and copies of Soviet after-action reports from North America were sent to the East Germans, and some of these reports found their way into BND hands, who then passed them onto the CIA or DIA (among other things). Second, the Middle East was still preoccupied with the Iran-Iraq War, and with Soviet arms deliveries cut off to the Iraqis, settled into a quagmire for both sides. American allies in the Middle East, notably the Israelis, Egyptians, Jordanians, and Saudis, provided what assistance they could, with the Israelis (with the roles reversed from 1973) sending arms, ammunition, and intelligence to the U.S., and allowing members of the IDF to go to the U.S. to fight. In addition, the Saudis and Gulf States continued selling oil to the U.S., as long as the tankers were escorted by the U.S. Navy, despite Soviet threats of "severe punishment." Finally, the reaction of America's allies in the Far East and Pacific is discussed, with the Aussies, Kiwis, ROKs, Thais, Filipinos, and notably, Japanese, doing whatever they could, despite the rumblings from Moscow against such activity. While the Japanese were technically neutrals, shipments of military-grade electronics, F-4 and F-15 fighters, tank and artillery ammunition, TOW missiles (bult by Fujitsu) and other weapons were sent, mostly clandestinely, but sometimes quite openly. The ROKs and Taiwan were more blatant, and their respective navies escorted ships bound for the U.S. to Okinawa, where the U.S. Pacific Fleet took over. Based on U.S., Taiwanese, and South Korean records, half of the small-arms, tank, and artillery ammunition used by the U.S. Sixth Army (Southwestern U.S.) and Eighth Army (Pacific Northwest) came from Far Eastern sources. Of course, F-5 and F-20 fighters came via Taiwan and South Korea, along with Taiwanese license-built M-60A3 tanks and M-113 APCs. The Thais couldn't contribute much in the way of troops, given as how the Vietnamese were across their border in Cambodia and Laos, but shipments of rice helped with food supplies, and the Filipinos sent a "volunteer" infantry brigade to the Pacific Northwest, just in time to take part in the Vancouver campaign, and fought in the Pacific NW to the end of the war. (Pyro, did anyone you know fight alongside the Filipinos? They were tough, by all accounts, especially the Filipino Marines-who had a habit of using bolo knives on sentries when raiding Soviets who were laagered up for the night....)

OOC: This is excellent. I believe that all the countries you mentioned would have behaved pretty much as you described in a Third World War in the Eighties.

Snowman23

Matt Wiser said: Snowman, did you see a half-dozen or so F-105s bombing and strafing the amphibs? If you did, that was the unit I fly with now: the 419th TFW. The Seattle Turkey Shoot (as they call it here) was the F-105's last hurrah, before they got F-4s via Japan. Wing HQ has a lot of gun-camera stills shot by the Thuds of ships being bombed, rocketed, and ripped up by 20-mm Vulcan fire. A lot of that 16-mm film has been converted to DVD, and the Hill Aerospace Museum shows some of it in their mini-theater. One of the Thuds that flew in Seattle is now on display at Boeing's Museum of Flight in Seattle, another is at the Hill Aerospace Museum, and another's at Fairchild AFB. All three have ship kills prominently displayed on the nose of the aircraft. One other thing that you might answer, Snowman, since you were there: It's said that the Navy and Coast Guard had a problem picking up Soviet survivors after it was all done. It seems those who made it to shore were set upon by angry locals and often wound up getting lynched. There were supposedly some incidents where the Coasties and the Navy had to keep survivors from such a fate, and a couple of them got ugly. Any truth to that, or just another wild story out of the war?

On the F-105's: Yeah they where some crazy sonsofbitches. One actually flew right over the Iowa, then dived to wave skimming height, and then flew right at one of the few escorts and gave the frigate a dose of 20 mm's. That was something I will always remember. They where not only dodging Ivan;s AA but our fire as we just let loose down range on the transports

On the Survivors: That's true as well. They actually had to send about 50 men off from the Iowa to help out some coasties and police on the shore. They sent the Marines and a few volunteers. I was one of them. We went of in a whaleboat, and i can tell you, it wasn't pretty. We landed just in time to prevent like 20 of the Ivans from being ripped apart by a mob of almost 100. We saw about 4 bodies already lynched as well. Also, it turn violent at least once. I was there. There where 2 Ivans and a mob of almost 200. And we had to shot into the air, but they kept pushing, so we had to shoot into the crowd. It wasn't pretty, Thank god, somehow we didn't kill any, but I saw at least 7 people hauled away bleeding pretty badly. It wasn't nice, and I hate to think of it, but it was necessary. I hate Ivan as much as anyone, but killing innocent, unarmed men isn't the answer. What we should have done, is thrown all the class A war criminals out into a mob. Then the mob could get vengeance on deserving individuals.

jacobus

It's not generally known, but the American puppet regime was in the process of forming its own small air arm, intended to provide support to their counterinsurgency auxillaries in the field. Besides the types shown here (Yak-52, Mi-2) the puppet air service was presented with a few captured Cessna Mescalero trainers by the Soviets. None of these aircraft were armed, as the auxilliaries weren't fully trusted and few had completed training by the time of the liberation. The regime's aircraft would probably have been used as spotters if they had been deployed.

s303.photobucket.com/albums/nn155/jp6869/?action=view¤t=Yak52696.jpg

s303.photobucket.com/albums/nn155/jp6869/?action=view¤t=Mi-2.jpg&newest=1

Matt Wiser

That's a nice bit of info. When I was at the Air War College, we never heard anything about that, and I certainly never heard about an ALA air arm when I was squadron Ops Officer, then XO, then CO. Our Intel shop would've told us, and I don't recall getting any kind of brief or even a mention in an intel summary about such a plan. It does make sense, though. This would've had to have been someplace in Texas or Oklahoma, I would expect. Panzerfaust was in MI during the war, so he might have heard about it.

Pyro

Matt Wiser said: (Pyro, did anyone you know fight alongside the Filipinos? They were tough, by all accounts, especially the Filipino Marines-who had a habit of using bolo knives on sentries when raiding Soviets who were laagered up for the night....)

When I went to visit my Uncle in Vancouver a couple years ago he took me to drink with a few veterans at his favorite watering hole (which included a former Filipino Marine who started his own software company in the city after the war). They told me a couple stories about the battle, and particularly how the Soviets were afraid to set foot in some parts of Vancouver at night because of it.

Matt Wiser

Pyro, any of your friends also fight alongside 3rd Marine Division? They helped cut off Ivan's rearguard when he decided to pull out, and two MRDs were cut off, surrounded by the Marines and your guys, and wiped out (in some battalions, almost to a man). They were the 3rd, 4th, and 9th Marines, 13th Marines (division artillery), and 3rd Marine Air Wing was most of the TACAIR in the Pacific Northwest for the better part of the war. (Carrier air and the AF occasionally showed up-look at Seattle, but the Pacific NW was mostly a Marine show TACAIR wise for the most part, sorry to say) Btw, the Filipinos later went with 2nd ID (a Filipino battalion fought with 2nd ID in the Korean War) when a minor push to the Alberta-Montana border (a reinforced Motor Rifle Regiment on a raid) got the congresscritters into hysterics, and they wound up east of the Rockies for most of the remainder of the war, along with the 163rd ACR from the Montana NG.

Keegan now goes into the Fall-Winter of '87, where the U.S. didn't stop, but continued with Phase II of PRAIRIE FIRE, pushing south of the Amarillo-OKC-Fort Smith-Mississippi river line, and down to Lubbock, Wichita Falls, then D/FW, Texarkana, and then the Mississippi. An Indian Summer that year meant that the fall rains didn't come at their usual time, and that meant Sixth and Fifth Armies could keep on going once their supply dumps were refilled. Third Army (Powell) was still in Mississippi and eastern Louisiana, but their time was coming, and soon. Hurricane Andrea in the Gulf, though, screwed everyone's plans that September, and when the storm hit the Texas coast, the wind and rain meant that both sides had to hunker down. The D/FW mess came afterwards, and that wasn't fully cleared until January. One thing about the hurricane: both sides had the same communications, supply, and air-support issues (or lack thereof in all three categories), so neither side could take advantage of the other's problems. Even though she was only a Category 2, the wind, rain, and other problems made fighting nearly impossible. Hurricane Darlene later that month made sure both sides in Louisiana got the same thing as their colleagues in Texas. A Cat 1, but still, try fighting in a hurricane or tropical storm...

Panzerfaust and The Mann might like this: Mark Wahlberg came by this weekend for his "Hollywood flight", and Major Kelly Ann Ray flew him. He was honored to have an ex-POW flying him, and she was glad to have a star flying backseat with her. When they landed, he was like a little kid, asking for more. I asked him if the flight meant he got a part in the Scott brothers' movie, and he said that he'd have to wait and see. I didn't notice until after they landed, but Tony was there, waiting to debrief and see if Mark handled the flying well enough to get the part. He may have, as both were smiling afterwards. As for Major Ray, she was all smiles, and she's pretty much back to normal. But I did notice something new painted on the side of her F-15E: a POW-MIA emblem. And she did get some sad, but expected news yesterday: the body of her WSO had been found in a Cuban warehouse, along with all the other POW remains, and ID'd. He had family in Butte, Montana, and she'll be going to the funeral. I've already asked for us to do the missing-man flyover at the service when the arrangements are made.

trekchu

jacobus said: OOC: This is excellent. I believe that all the countries you mentioned would have behaved pretty much as you described in a Third World War in the Eighties.

OOC: With the exception of Germany. There is no way that the Greens come to power in that time period in the first place, never mind us sitting that one out.

Panzerfaust 150

Location:Washington DC...We HAD a football team, now it's a
Well,
It was known about, but not considered much of a threat. We don't even think Ivan even armed any of the aircraft in question. And, considering the manpower pool Ivan was pulling the Auxiliaries from....you can imagine what the "down chit" and accident rates were. Nobody today has ever admitted to being part of it. And, considering it was, at it's height, oh, about a dozen a/c total, not much of a contribution to Ivan's war effort.

Matt Wiser

Maybe the Quisling pretend government convinced Ivan that it needed a pretend air force. Talk about clay pigeons, though! None of those aircraft would've stood a chance against the Cobra Chicks, or any other attack helo outfit, let alone fast-movers. And certainly their pool of "qualified" personnel was limited-"qualified" in the political sense, I mean.

Hey, Panzerfaust, whose idea was it for the party in Key West? Major Ray says it wasn't the ex-POWs'. Or did it just start up on its own? The video of the wet T-Shirt contest is all over the web.....Major Ray's ground crew had a look-see, and they were, shall we say, impressed. At least AF OSI isn't interested-they have more important things to go after. Like a former POW who got named in some Cuban documents as a collaborator in a POW camp down there. Air Force Times has the story online today, and the fellow had better look out-if he doesn't have a lawyer now, he'd better get one soon.

Panzerfaust 150

As for the Wet-T shirt party..well, my mind gets fuzzy on exactly HOW it began...my wife wasn't too happy that my mug is on the youtube video face down in my beer with two female ex-POWs having their arms around me! :rolleyes: (No, nothing happened! Hell, they got me back to barracks ok). Yeah, perhaps the Wet-T shirt part was ill-advised...but as I said before..it may have been a case of some folks letting off a LOT of steam. I give OSI, NCIS and CID a lot of credit...this one they let go..and with damn good reason.

Arizona Ranger

Was made a Field Major in the Roswell Rangers staging hit and run raids into Texas, Mexico, and Colorado ....

The Roswell Rangers was a Popski's Private Army style unit based of of SW New Mexico made up of overaged Military Vets from Vietnam, Korea, and even WW2. I was one of the numerous volunteers deemed 4-F by the Regular US Military who was accepted in their ranks. We were mobile utilising Pick Up Trucks, Jeeps, and even a Converted 18 Wheeler with multiple MG Mounts....

Also in our ranks was an Expat Briton named Captain Meigs who served with the Paras in Ulster and God help us a group of Rhodesians who were living in Arizona and wanted to payback Ivan for the Marxist Uprising in their land...

Took out a column of Trucks headed for Amarillo and captured 2 Soviet Colonels who surivived being blown away by their guys who went over to our side....

Matt Wiser

Given what most of the partygoers had gone through, I think someone at NAS Boca Chica told the various agencies not to get involved. Besides, most of the ex-POWs are civilians now, anyway. As Major Ray told me, she thought that she'd never see those Cubans again, and seeing them in the various line-ups brought back many unpleasant memories. Like I said, there's some that she'd have die slowly after what they did to her and her fellow prisoners. All those memories came back, and everyone had to blow off steam somehow. Even the OSI guys at Hill called me today and said they'd viewed the video online. "Nothing wrong here," they said. Any punishment was up to me as 419th TFW CO, and I told them I'd handle it in-house. (meaning: nothing in her record) Panzerfaust, were the Magnificent Two the ones you mention? They may be twenty-plus years older, but they still are lookers, based on the video....(Lisa would put me on the couch if I told her I saw the video)

First time we've heard from somebody else in New Mexico. You guys in that part of the state were out of III Corps' AO, so not much got heard about you fellows. X Corps was in the Las Cruces-El Paso-Alamogordo area, so they didn't work with you. The ROKs went in between III and X Corps (ROK 1st and 9th Divisions, 3rd Marine Brigade, plus Corps troops), so you probably ran into them, when PRAIRIE FIRE kicked off.

Anyone here work with the Taiwanese? The Army's official history says there was a Taiwanese Army Division and a Marine brigade here beginning Summer of '86, but I've never run across anyone who fought alongside them. It was said they were in Colorado, and some of the stuff they did made even guerillas blanch. After that, they were down with X Corps in Southern New Mexico and West Texas. Incidentally, since the PRC government went up in a mushroom cloud via SS-17s on Beijing, the Taiwanese are now considered as "China" for the UN's purposes. All the various mini-states and warlords don't count for much, other than the body counts when they fight each other and it's a slow news day otherwise.

[lordroel]

From page 44

Pyro

Matt Wiser said: Pyro, any of your friends also fight alongside 3rd Marine Division? They helped cut off Ivan's rearguard when he decided to pull out, and two MRDs were cut off, surrounded by the Marines and your guys, and wiped out (in some battalions, almost to a man).

Ah, yes. One of them told me how crazy it got with their supply line cut, almost no ammunition, and then surrounded by a swarm of angry Canadians and Americans (and Filipinos). Knowing they they couldn't escape, many of the Ruskies charged toward the Canadian/American position and got brutally cut down. I almost didn't believe it when I heard it, but when I met veteran of the 3rd Marine Division at last year's airshow, he verified that account. Desperation tends to force people to do stupid things, especially in war.

Oh, and while I'm on the subject of the Lethbridge Air Show, I think I'm going to bug the organizers to invite your wing over. Especially with the upcoming film and all. :cool:

Matt Wiser

Pyro, we'll be there, as soon as we get the word via channels as to when. I'll bring Major Kelly Ann Ray and her Strike Eagle as well. And don't forget to bug the organizers about the 366th (my wife's wing). There's several vets from the 335th TFS in her wing, including Lt. Col. Kara Sackhoff, who was pilot in the first all-female F-4 crew in the AF. She commands the 390th TFS, the Wild Boars, these days. Lisa and I are the only husband-and-wife team in the AF who are wing COs, even if I'm running a Reserve one. There's one in SAC coming, though: Col. Cindy Moreau is halfway through her tour as CO of the 93rd BW at Castle, now her husband is going to be taking charge of the 320th BW at Mather AFB near Sacramento in a few weeks. I wonder what old "Iron Ass" LeMay would think of that, if he was still with us? If you haven't yet, take a look at the video of the Key West party for a look at Major Ray. She doesn't like the fact that some of the physical scars of her captivity appeared on camera. Those guards used bamboo sticks on her back and chest, and the scars are still there, sadly, along with some lingering rope marks where nylon rope was used to truss her up, North Vietnamese style, and the ropes cut nearly to the bone.

No word on final casting for the movie, though the Scott brothers told me that they will announce at the Victory Day Air Show at Mountain Home AFB. And they plan to film at Mountain Home, too. Which makes the Chamber of Commerce very happy. And they promised cameos to Me, Lisa, Major Ray, Col. Sackhoff, and many others in both the 366th and 419th.
Awful nice of 'em.

Arizona Ranger

Matt Wiser said: First time we've heard from somebody else in New Mexico. You guys in that part of the state were out of III Corps' AO, so not much got heard about you fellows. X Corps was in the Las Cruces-El Paso-Alamogordo area, so they didn't work with you. The ROKs went in between III and X Corps (ROK 1st and 9th Divisions, 3rd Marine Brigade, plus Corps troops), so you probably ran into them, when PRAIRIE FIRE kicked off..

Well the III Corps never took us seriously and wanted to disband us since we were doing more of an effective job against the Ivans and Pedros....

ROK's were great soldiers and some of them went along as "Observers" during our El Paso/Juarez raids.....

How about the South Africans in WW3 ? The various ANC/SWAPO Units thought it was gonna be a cakewalk into Jo'Burg with the help of Mugabe's Clowns and various MPLA/FRELIMO Units.....

Well they did'nt count on the stiff resistance from the White Farmers and Zulu Units formed from scratch after a deal was reached with King Buthlezi and the ass kicking they got at Bloemfoentin which made the British Casualties at the Somme look pale in comparison....

Or the suprise intervention from a USMC Unit landed at Capetown which joined several SA Units there and proceeded to roll up the ANC Forces in a manner that resembled the Greek Victories against Mussolini's forces in 1940...

How many US Liberals nearly had heart failure when they saw White South Africans come up and shake hands/ hug/kiss the Black Marines in that unit and offer them cans after cans of Laager and Miele Cakes to thank them from saving them from an unspeakable fate ?

Afterwards, PW Botha announced he would begin immediate reforms to address the Aparthied policies and stated all US/Allied Forces were free to use South African Bases, Airfields/Ports and all servicemen/women were welcome there regardless of colour.....

Afterwards Winnie Mandela speaking in exile in Harare/Salisbury 3 weeks before Mugabe's overthrow stated she would fly to Moscow to encourage the USSR to send more aid and troops from Cuba to start up a second battle of liberation and after arriving in Moscow reportedly was taken to hospital to recover from what Pravda called "Massive Nervous Exhaustion" and was never seen again...

Matt Wiser

You should've seen the South Africans who came here: they handled a lot of air base security tasks in the Southwest, and they teamed up with some of the Indian tribes for that purpose. The Indians were scouts and trackers, and if they found Soviet or Cuban SOF, they'd call in the South Africans and the AF Combat Security Police to deal with 'em. We've talked about them earlier in the thread. They brooked no nonsense, and at least where I was, no base that had the South Africans as base security was penetrated by enemy SOF. They had to convince the Indians (many of them being Apaches) of the need to take prisoners for interrogation-many of the Indian trackers, when they ambushed enemy SOF, didn't take any prisoners....unless they were ordered to do so.

Matt Wiser

Pyro, got a question for you: Given that most of the U.S. forces were busy in the Plains states and later on, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico, etc., was there any grumbling on your side of the border about no real offensive action before Ivan was pushed back across the Rio Grande and (hopefully) Mexico getting knocked out of the war? There's been some magazine articles from Canadians who felt there should've been some kind of offensive action besides the counterattack at Vancouver. Keegan feels the U.S.'s course of action was the right one: get back on the Rio Grande and have Mexico City sign a peace, then transfer forces north. (in conjunction with more Pacific Fleet carrier and sub activity aimed at Alaska)

Matt Wiser

This was a common sight throughout the war: A Cuban Su-25. These were mostly in New Mexico, Colorado, and as far north as Wyoming during the failed Spring-Summer Offensive in '86. There's several restored aircraft on display at various museums, along with quite a few wrecks. FYI the AF Museum's specimen is in Soviet AF markings, as is the Smithsonian's.



jacobus

Matt Wiser said: This was a common sight throughout the war: A Cuban Su-25. These were mostly in New Mexico, Colorado, and as far north as Wyoming during the failed Spring-Summer Offensive in '86. There's several restored aircraft on display at various museums, along with quite a few wrecks. FYI the AF Museum's specimen is in Soviet AF markings, as is the Smithsonian's.

OOC: Great job, showing us what an Su-25 would have looked like had it ever seen service in Cuban camo and markings. I've done a couple of planes, but you put mine to shame.

Matt Wiser

OOC: The credit belongs to the artist known as Iranian F-14 over on the what-if modelers board. He's done a number of Soviet-bloc aircraft in markings of those who never operated them (among many other profiles). I just had it on my hard drive.

Matt Wiser

Remember the discussion about the 888th and 999th "Special Missions" Squadrons and all the Soviet aircraft they flew? Well, after the war, those planes that survived wound up at the Nellis Test Range, flying with the Air Force's Fighter/Bomber Weapons School. Here's one of the Triple-Nine's birds, during the war: a Tu-22M Backfire. How the plane was "acquired", no one is saying. Or if they do, they give the old adage, "I can tell you, but I have to kill ya afterwards."

OOC: Many thanks to John "Maverick" Lacey over on the what-if modelers board for the artwork. Check his thread over on the what-if board at www.whatifmodelers.com It's worth checking out, as well as all the other artists there, many with AH possiblities.



Matt Wiser

Fellows, remember the Su-24 that defected, flying to Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls about a week after the base and city were retaken in PRAIRIE FIRE II? Well, here's the plane postwar, when it was flown as part of the Enemy Aircraft Evaluation Program at Edwards AFB. A similar program was done after World War II with captured German and Japanese aircraft, and some guys who had done that program in 1945-46 came out of retirement to offer advice on how to run this one. (OOC: again, many thanks to John "Maverick" Lacey on the What-if modelers board, for the artwork.)

Almost done with Keegan's next chapter, which deals with PRAIRIE FIRE II: the September-October phase. And the prelude to Ivan's Midland-Odessa counteroffensive. Like the Battle of the Bulge, we didn't expect it. But instead of six weeks to get back to the preoffensive line as in the Bulge, this time it took only two.



Snowman23

I remember when Prairie Fire was launched. I was on the Iowa, and she we where busy blasting CommBloc positions in Panama. We launched Operation HEADHUNTER at the same time to retake the Canal Zone to keep CommBloc stretched. We landed on the Pacific Side, as the Caribbean was to dangerous to try and launch any offensive through. We landed the 5th Marines and a US Army Armored Brigade organized just to add some extra punch. Also we had the support of around 2,000 organized guerrillas in a bunch of small bands. They where originally made up of US Soldiers who evaded capture and some anti-communist Panamanians. Then we dropped in a view advisers to organized them and lead them against a few specific points. It worked almost flawlessly. Most of the Panamanians and Central American forces just gave up after a few days. Only the few Cuban and Soviet troops gave heavy resistance. Then, when Ivan and Fidel sent a expedition to reinforce the place, the USS Nimitz and USS Ranger sent of an air raid that blew the shit out the convoy. What a great victory. The stupid commies didn't even try to sabotage the locks, so they only needed repairs form some minor battle damage and then the Canal was ready for US ships.
Last edited: Aug 2, 2009

Matt Wiser

Well, Ivan did stage a Backfire Regiment from Northern Fleet to Cuban bases to do just that, keep the Caribbean a dangerous place for the U.S. Navy. And he also sent the Cubans a Badger Regiment, all painted up in Cuban markings and eventually, with Cuban AF crews (to satisfy Fidel's pride). They did standoff strikes against targets on the Gulf Coast and in Florida with AS-5 Kelt missiles, but when PRAIRIE FIRE kicked off, the Navy did a series of carrier air strikes against targets in Cuba, and the Cuban Badgers responded. 24 aircraft went out, and ran afoul of F-14s off of John F. Kennedy and Eisenhower. Only four returned. The SNAF Backfires went behind the Cubans, and lost 17 of 30 for no damage to the carriers, though several islands in the Bahamas took AS-4 missiles....

I'm wondering if we found any of the remaining Badgers when we moved into Cuba? Anyone there get to have a look at San Antonio De Los Banos or Holguin Air Bases? That's where the Badgers were based during the war. The POWs held at Holguin had a front-row seat to the carrier raid, and they enjoyed it. The Cuban guards certainly didn't, and the POWs were the object of the guards' fury.

(OOC: thanks again to the artist Iranian F-14 on the what-if modelers forum. He does great work)



Snowman23

Yeah Iowa moved with those carriers. That was my only brief stint in the Atlantic. We bombarded Coastal positions in support of a drive along the Gulf Coast. Anyone see those shells give the Ivans a beat down?

TheMann

Snowman23 said: Yeah Iowa moved with those carriers. That was my only brief stint in the Atlantic. We bombarded Coastal positions in support of a drive along the Gulf Coast. Anyone see those shells give the Ivans a beat down?

I saw all of it, because I was for a while flying air cover for the BBs as they worked their way along the Gulf Coast during the Battle of Houston in '88. We always liked the show best when a BB shell made contact with a refinery or a chemical plant with flammable materials. KABOOM was always the result. If the guys on Iowa ever eyeballed a F/A-18 roaring along with tail number 58-0215, that was me at that point.

Matt Wiser

The Mann: Well, they announced the casting for the movie, earlier than planned, but some Hollyweird news site had it, so the Scott brothers went ahead anyway: Mark Wahlberg and Brad Pitt, along with Kate Winslet and Charlize Theron. All four of 'em passed their flights with the least amount of throwin' up in the cockpit. Wahlberg plays yours truly, with Pitt playing the 335th CO before he bit the big one near D/FW. Kate Winslet plays Lisa, while Charlize has the role of Kara Sackhoff. And the AF has told us to go down to AMARC and inspect the F-4Es in storage to see which ones are usable for the movie. We'll be on "temporary active duty" for the movie filming. DOD's movie liasion office is coming up in a few days to iron out the details. Oh, and Harrison Ford has a bit part as General Tanner (CO, 10th Air Force).

Keegan has a pretty good explanation for PRAIRIE FIRE II running out of steam in October '87: supply. And not just the supplies for Fifth and Sixth Armies, but the supplies for the liberated civilians. Then there was the job of reestablishing local and state government, though in Texas, New Mexico, and Louisiana were still effectively under military government wherever the U.S. Army and Marines were operating. And Powell was finally going to get unleashed in Northern Louisiana with Third Army crossing the Mississippi-just after Midland-Odessa.

Panzerfaust 150

That's where our war began really, when Powell got unleashed. Ironic I was part of Third Army. Grandfather was with them the last time around...and now I was this time. We got to Houston about a week after 18th Airborne and I MEF got there towards the tail end of PRAIRIE FIRE. There were just so many damn EPWs we were kept there another week while the rest of Third Army moved out to the south.

Matt Wiser

That was GULF HAMMER, right? The big airborne and amphib assault on Houston. When Powell got unleashed, he made the most of the opportunity. With Ivan's Midland-Odessa offensive bogged down, TPTB turned him loose. Too bad VII Corps was busy in D/FW, and III Corps and the ROKs handling Midland-Odessa. God, that was nasty: when the Intel officer came to me (I had just gotten the squadron) and said, "Major, look at the enemy OB." All those SA-11s, SA-6s, SA-8s....not what any tacair driver wants to see. Panzerfaust, you were with XVIII Airborne Corps, right? But were you guys jump-qualified? Or did you guys go in over the beach, behind the Marines (2nd and 6th MarDivs)?

Clearing Louisiana must've been a mess, with all the blown bridges from the early days of the invasion along the I-10 and U.S. 90 corridors. Hopefully the locals helped find ways of keeping the 'gators away from the engineers getting some bridges up. The 4th Marine Division and their amphib vehicles no doubt came in very handy at times. But when 5th and 24th IDs crossed the Mississippi west of Vicksburg...those were Cubans there, and they got jumped on with both feet. A college friend was in 24th ID (started out a platoon leader and ended as a battalion commander), and he said that once they bounced across the river, the Cubans (second-stringers-Cat B or C) who stayed to fight, died. Those who didn't either ran or surrendered. They didn't have a serious fight in 24th ID until Shreveport.

Panzerfaust: Major Kelly Ann Ray's book is going to be turned into a movie. Were there any Hollyweird types in Key West, because she'd pitched the book a few years ago to a couple of producers and there were no takers. Now Showtime wants to do a movie all of a sudden.

Arizona Ranger


Anyone know if they ever wrote a book about the Ghurka Unit the UK sent over that helped guard the White House during the dark days ?

We understand several bodies of a Spetsnaz group were found strewn over the great lawn and the Stone Faced Ghurka's never uttered a peep ....

Snowman23

Arizona Ranger said: Anyone know if they ever wrote a book about the Ghurka Unit the UK sent over that helped guard the White House during the dark days ?

We understand several bodies of a Spetsnaz group were found strewn over the great lawn and the Stone Faced Ghurka's never uttered a peep ....

OCC: Im pretty sure in the time line D.C. was nuked, so they wouldn't have much to protect.