mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Jun 14, 2018 4:01:55 GMT
The territory of the Free State of Prussia - Weimar's largest state - is sent from October 3, 1930 to October 3, 1990.
Bavaria etc. are obviously still 1990.
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Jun 14, 2018 8:19:51 GMT
We will hear even more about the damned Prussians.
Aside from that, it will be a very expensive kind of rebuilding package, even more so than rebuilding the east. And then there are the issues with the USSR (which might actually find a new lease on life because they can spin things a little. But then again, the whole situation is breaking down anyway). Added to that, there are all the political issues. It will be very interesting indeed.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 14, 2018 11:00:48 GMT
We will hear even more about the damned Prussians. Aside from that, it will be a very expensive kind of rebuilding package, even more so than rebuilding the east. And then there are the issues with the USSR (which might actually find a new lease on life because they can spin things a little. But then again, the whole situation is breaking down anyway). Added to that, there are all the political issues. It will be very interesting indeed.
Both Russia, in terms of the Kaliningrad region and even more so Poland have lost territory, the latter a substantial chunk with Silesia and Pomerania as well as their part of the former E Prussia. Also both eastern and western blocs have lost economic and military resources. For the Soviets their lost a lot of their front line military units deployed in E Germany and western Poland as well as probably a lot of tactical nukes disappearing. For the west a lot of the forward deployed NATO units have gone, although the US has probably escaped the best as their forces are concentrated more in the south and so unaffected. NATO and the EU has however lost a lot of its 2nd/1st most important member.
The other question is how many prominent members of the Nazi party and other war and crimes against humanity people are in the affected area and what do we do with them? After all the vast majority of their crimes haven't occurred yet, which creates legal problems, at least in the west.
A lot depends on what the Soviets and Poles do as both are likely to react angrily, possibly especially the Poles who have lost a lot of land and people. Also their likely to be less than happy with a good chunk of pre-Nazi Germany being the 'occupier' as they see it. The Soviets are more important however as their already pretty unstable and have nukes, a hell of a lot of them.
I suspect the communists would suggest a 'restoration' of the 1990 position with Germany partitioned between east and west and possibly also the 'restoration' of the Polish lands. How the west would respond to this I don't know. It would remove any substantial risk of conflict with the Soviets but isn't going to go down well with the rump Germany or probably a lot of other people in Europe who see a chance of pushing the Soviet threat back and also concerns about a still basically democratic Prussia being partially occupied by the communists. Also any people surviving or descendants of those expelled from the eastern lands would want to at least protect their ancestors and their homes.
On the plus side there will be a fair number of important people alive again, such as Einstein, as he was a professor in Berlin at the time. The idea of him meeting up with Stephen Hawking and some of the modern [i.e. 1990] scientists and learning what has been discovered since then. Number of other scientists, writers etc.
Even without any conflict in the east rump W Germany has seen substantial losses of territory and population. I think Bonn is included in the ISOT so their lost a lot of their political leadership and civil service although the federal status of W Germany will help there. Its going to have a huge job reintegrating the western part of Prussia let along an even larger and more backwards eastern Germany if the Soviets and Poles don't start something and the Soviet empire still collapses.
There's going to be a substantial economic hit as well with much of one of the largest economies in the world being gutted.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 14, 2018 13:53:31 GMT
The territory of the Free State of Prussia - Weimar's largest state - is sent from October 3, 1930 to October 3, 1990. Bavaria etc. are obviously still 1990. Poland will not be happy, Soviet Union will not be happy and West Germany that is in the process of absorbing East Germany will also not be happy.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 14, 2018 15:50:39 GMT
The territory of the Free State of Prussia - Weimar's largest state - is sent from October 3, 1930 to October 3, 1990. Bavaria etc. are obviously still 1990. Poland will not be happy, Soviet Union will not be happy and West Germany that is in the process of absorbing East Germany will also not be happy.
Duh! Forgetting to check the date. This was after the Soviets have already withdrawn so they haven't lost a lot of forces, other than those in Kaliningrad or Poland. You are going to get some more modern West Germans lost as their in the former E Germany at the time sorting things out for the reunification. Along with possibly some other western politicians and businessmen.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jun 14, 2018 17:57:18 GMT
Poland will not be happy, Soviet Union will not be happy and West Germany that is in the process of absorbing East Germany will also not be happy.
Duh! Forgetting to check the date. This was after the Soviets have already withdrawn so they haven't lost a lot of forces, other than those in Kaliningrad or Poland. You are going to get some more modern West Germans lost as their in the former E Germany at the time sorting things out for the reunification. Along with possibly some other western politicians and businessmen.
In 1990? nah, they were in the progress of withdrawing forces. As usual, the transfer of people from 1930 to 1990 mean we face a huge cultural shock for the newcomers, also the countries hit hard (esp. poland) would look for a few million people who suddenly vanished. the infrastructure in these areas will be also less developted, even if the difference is not so big as in other scenarios. Nobody will be "happy", some people like Erich Koch (since 1928 as a party ruling person of the NSDAP in prussia) would suddenly learn about his "historical crimes", you also have some (don´t know the exact numbers) dozen thousend people who are completly incompatible to modern germany (here i speak about the die-hard nazis who allready lived/worked in prussia. On the plus side you have old cities that are not destroyed in ww2. But how to explain to these people that they now live in "foreign" areas (poland, russia) and that they have to move to germany (if that is the plan - but on the other side, could poland/russia expulse 1/3 of 43 mio people? In 1939 43 mio germans lived in prussia... most in the western parts, but around 1/3 in areas that are now no longer german soil) The negative effect of the loss of some nuclear weapons, a few thousend western allied soldiers (in the west of prussia) should also give them all a huge headache. overall it would be a desaster - germany was the 3rd largest economy in 1990, here 2/3 of its area is replaced by outdated machinery, non-usable hardware/mechanics and its citicens are - to say it carefully - not up to date of 1990. On the plus-side - you could talk to Guderian and Co about their ideas of modern warfare, they could read their own books and give advice about their position to this NOW. just kidding...
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Jun 15, 2018 19:18:02 GMT
Given that it's just after the 1930 election (although I can't recall exact dates for everything and don't have the time to properly research this), we also get the fun situation of Hitler probably being in Berlin. Goebbels would definitely have been there. I think that they could be arrested within the bounds of the law, if only for their efforts in organising violence and a few other things.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 15, 2018 19:23:27 GMT
Given that it's just after the 1930 election (although I can't recall exact dates for everything and don't have the time to properly research this), we also get the fun situation of Hitler probably being in Berlin. Goebbels would definitely have been there. I think that they could be arrested within the bounds of the law, if only for their efforts in organising violence and a few other things. Well at least we do not have Hermann Göring as Minister President of Prussia, he would assume that position in 1933, but we do have Otto Braun as Minister President of Prussia, and it seems he is a Social Democratic politician and a opponent of the Nazi regime.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jun 17, 2018 19:06:24 GMT
Given that it's just after the 1930 election (although I can't recall exact dates for everything and don't have the time to properly research this), we also get the fun situation of Hitler probably being in Berlin. Goebbels would definitely have been there. I think that they could be arrested within the bounds of the law, if only for their efforts in organising violence and a few other things. Well my estimated dense of nazis was wrong... i thought about EAST-prussia... you are right. in 1930 in PRUSSIA you face a great number of nazis (the leaders) and followers... even if not as bad as 1933 or 34. But i disagree with you about arresting them. No Timecops and in 1990 (err, 1930) you cannot catch em for crimes they WILL commit in a few years. So, as much as i would personally want em face their justice you couldn´t do this on a legal base. But on the other side, around the world, bah, in germany there would be enough people who happily club them to death (the staying part). Hell, myself would happily go to "prussia" in 1990 and look what i could do about that situation.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 17, 2018 19:13:01 GMT
Looking at the map, East Germany does not exist anymore.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 17, 2018 19:42:51 GMT
That's a point. I had forgotten that Gdansk/Danzig wasn't part of Prussia at the time so it will still be the Polish one from 1990, which reduces Polish losses a bit and probably means a good bit of the Solidarity Union is still about.
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Jun 17, 2018 22:33:36 GMT
Given that it's just after the 1930 election (although I can't recall exact dates for everything and don't have the time to properly research this), we also get the fun situation of Hitler probably being in Berlin. Goebbels would definitely have been there. I think that they could be arrested within the bounds of the law, if only for their efforts in organising violence and a few other things. Well my estimated dense of nazis was wrong... i thought about EAST-prussia... you are right. in 1930 in PRUSSIA you face a great number of nazis (the leaders) and followers... even if not as bad as 1933 or 34. But i disagree with you about arresting them. No Timecops and in 1990 (err, 1930) you cannot catch em for crimes they WILL commit in a few years. So, as much as i would personally want em face their justice you couldn´t do this on a legal base. But on the other side, around the world, bah, in germany there would be enough people who happily club them to death (the staying part). Hell, myself would happily go to "prussia" in 1990 and look what i could do about that situation. It appears that I lost most of my post, but there already is a lot you can get them for. Including Volksverhetzung (5 years), calling for crimes, defamation, defamation of foreign states, displaying and using forbidden symbols, membership of a terrorist organisation, and a whole bunch more. Of course, this mostly makes use of modern law, but it can easily be twisted that these took place (and are taking place) in the territory of the BRD. Failing that, you can try them under GDR law. Or even just Weimar law offers plenty of possibilities as long as the will is there. The crimes didn't begin in 1933 after all.
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jasonsnow
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Post by jasonsnow on Jun 18, 2018 1:49:31 GMT
Wait... the Nazis had already broken the law several times. The Beer Hall Putsch, Hitler violating his no-speech condition, street violence, homicide, discrimination against Jews and Communists... Not to mention the absolute hell they would receive from the Poles, Norwegians, Danes, French, Yugoslavs, Greeks, Austrians, British, Italians, Belgians, Dutch, Czechoslovakians, Luxembourgish, and most especially the Russians (not to mention Jews, Romani, homosexuals, the disabled community, etc.). There would be international pressure to bring those Nazis to justice. And if they're not punished by the hand of law, they will be punished by the hand of the people.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 18, 2018 3:12:02 GMT
I can see a South Germany being formed being made up of Bavaria,Württemberg,Baden,Hesse,Thuringia and Saxony. The other places that are not part of 1930 Prussia but are under control of 1990 West ore East Germany will by govern either directly ore indirectly by South Germany while what is now 1930 Prussia will be occupied mostly until it can become a independent country by the French,British, United States and what is now Russia.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jun 18, 2018 6:55:36 GMT
Well my estimated dense of nazis was wrong... i thought about EAST-prussia... you are right. in 1930 in PRUSSIA you face a great number of nazis (the leaders) and followers... even if not as bad as 1933 or 34. But i disagree with you about arresting them. No Timecops and in 1990 (err, 1930) you cannot catch em for crimes they WILL commit in a few years. So, as much as i would personally want em face their justice you couldn´t do this on a legal base. But on the other side, around the world, bah, in germany there would be enough people who happily club them to death (the staying part). Hell, myself would happily go to "prussia" in 1990 and look what i could do about that situation. It appears that I lost most of my post, but there already is a lot you can get them for. Including Volksverhetzung (5 years), calling for crimes, defamation, defamation of foreign states, displaying and using forbidden symbols, membership of a terrorist organisation, and a whole bunch more. Of course, this mostly makes use of modern law, but it can easily be twisted that these took place (and are taking place) in the territory of the BRD. Failing that, you can try them under GDR law. Or even just Weimar law offers plenty of possibilities as long as the will is there. The crimes didn't begin in 1933 after all. HI, sorry to hear that you lost parts of your message. No - german law is quite easy in these points. Everything that happened in 1930 was NOT under the laws of modern germany. So everything for example Adolf Hitler has said in 1929 is not to judge by modern laws. The next point about this is, how about the situation in "old prussia" now? The people in it, the area was transfered in time from 1930, so there exist at last a 50% right POV that the people in it lay under the laws of 1930-germany/Weimar, including Death sentence and all laws who were active in that time. That is a can of worms nobody can judge from our POV. We have - parts of modern poland suddenly as "german areas (prussia)" with germans-only in it. The plot said that the whole was transferred, so the former polish people have vanished, just like the former germans in say Berlin or Hannover. So you have also gigantic troubles to explain why suddenly 5-10 mio germans, living in 1930-germany - should be polish people in poland. These people have not accepted (and nobody could expect them to do so) to live in foreign countries. Worse, they have NOT done anything evil - in 1930 germany had no hostile moves against poland, no mass genocide commited against slaves, jews, handicapped etc... so to blame them for crimes they have NOT done is impossible - at last under every countries law existing in 1990. The same is true even for Adolf Hitler. We (the rest of germany, say in bavaria) know that he is the propably second most evil human in history (next to Stalin), but the laws have zero chances to catch him. If you arrest him every judge will give him free - because the claim of his crimes are not true in the moment (the people he WILL order in FUTURE to slaughter still exist (if in the area of 1930 weimar)). The trick of nuernberg wouldn´t help anybody here - that was post-war, with basically unlegal acts of "winning" countries... just try that process today and every single nazi would get his liberty, basically because every judge would decline the cases (why? because it was build on "post factum"-laws, that were enforced onto people who did - at last in the judges-world (not my personal view of it!) not violate any laws of its time. That alone let em escape untouched (in modern ways). The good thing about this is, that around 70-80% of the german jews that the nazis killed OTL in 33-45 would still be alive, so you save at last 300-500k people from death. And you have suddenly such people like Albert Einstein living and alive, Thomas Mann or Stefan Zweig. They all were living in Prussia in 1930, so they are "back". Esp. Einstein could be VERY interesting if he and others are confrontated with "modern" physics, nukes and the whole history of humans from 1930-1990. But also the other 43mio people in prussia - they would learn that they had supported the most evil system in human mankind, many of them would have commited incredible evil crimes - in 10-15 years. But also you have lots of very brutal and criminal people (from the communists and the SA/SS), ready to kill hostile people in political affairs. That is fundamentally different to our "modern" democratic conflicts - basically Hamburg 2017 on steroids, all other prussia. then you have to clear the problem that a lot (50-100k?) "allied" forces, but also russian forces had vanished, including lots of nuclear weapons. These were on the ground of the now prussian area yesterday, today they are gone - nobody know were they are. That alone would cause HUGE problems in the countries that had stationed forces onto german ground (basically british and american forces, but also belgian and dutch if i remember correctly, but also and esp. russian and polish forces). For poland, the loss of a few million people, more casulties as WW2 (!) this would shock the country, in a time of instability... even worse, if the polish police would try to inspect the things, they would be confrontated by german police and people who have zero, absolutly zero love for poland or polish police forces. You basically have a war between germans - who "rightfully" defend their country from hostile polish invasors - and polish forces who rightfully want to know what happened to their core areas of economy with a few million polish people living here till yesterday But the biggest impact is the loss of economic values - in the EU and the world. Germany was the biggest exporter of goods in that time, if you loose 90% of these exports (for other countries NEEDED imports), worse - the financial exchange from germany to other european countries is gone - with a 3rd world-economy as 1930 weimar has germany cannot and will not finance other 3rd world european countries that are IN the EU. That is a big cluserf..ck of extreme dimensions... But stevep is utterly wrong, only parts of the GDR are in the 1930er area, thuringa, saxonia and in mecklenburg-pomerania the modern germans would stay.
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