Maps: Greater Greece (Megali Idea)

[lordroel]

Maps: Greater Greece (Megali Idea)

Greater Greece ore also known as the Megali Idea was a concept of Greek nationalism that expresses the goal of establishing a Greek state that would encompass all ethnic Greek-inhabited areas, including the large Greek populations that were still under Ottoman rule after the Greek War of Independence (1830) and all the regions that traditionally belonged to Greeks in ancient times (the Southern Balkans, Anatolia and Cyprus).

The term appeared for the first time during the debates of Prime Minister Ioannis Kolettis with King Otto that preceded the promulgation of the 1844 constitution. This was a visionary nationalist aspiration that was to dominate foreign relations and, to a significant extent, determine domestic politics of the Greek state for much of the first century of independence. The expression was new in 1844 but the concept had roots in the Greek popular psyche. It long had hopes of liberation from Turkish rule and restoration of the Byzantine Empire.

Wikipedia article regarding Greater Greece (Megali Idea)

Map I (Version I)



Yellow: Greece before 1912.

Red: Greece after the Balkan wars.

Blue: Greece in 1920.

Map II (Version II)

This French map shows Greater or Megali Greece at the moment it appeared to have become a reality. In 1919 the British, worried about resistance from Turkish nationalists as well as the possibility that Italian forces would try to seize Izmir, encouraged their allies the Greeks to land troops in Izmir and take possession of part of Asia Minor. Greeks had long claimed this territory, based both on its Greek-speaking, Orthodox population and its historical importance in the classical age. Famously, the Greek landing coincided with Mustafa Kemal's journey to Samsun, after which he established control of the nascent Turkish nationalist movement. The British were all too eager to see Greek forces try to solidify their territorial gains by advancing into Anatolia to crush the nationalist movement. When this effort failed catastrophically, Greek forces were driven out of Anatolia and ultimately forced to abandon the territory they had gained in Thrace as well. The Bosphorus and Dardanelles, as well as the region around them, are marked here as under international control as per the treaty of Sevres. It is hard to look at this map and not wonder how enduring a Greek victory in 1922 really could have been. Given the geographic and demographic dynamics, would Turkey have inevitably retaken this territory anyways?



Map III (Version III)

This Greece propaganda map was made in 1920 showing Greater Greece (Megali Idea) featuring Eleftherios Venizelos, a proponent of Megali Idea.

[stevep]

Interesting that the 1st map excludes Constantinople and keeps control of the straits in [presumably Turkish] hands.

I have toyed with scenarios where the Greeks actually win and think it would be possible for them to control both the straits and most of the Ionian coast region. As the article says holding it in the longer run might be more difficult. [However if as a result you have a more equal expulsion of populations then Greece won't be as strained and divided as OTL. Also, while they would still see the Greek population expelled from the Pontic region they would have much of the richest territory in Anatolia and you might see a significant rise in Greek population as a result.

One big butterfly might be if Alexander I of Greece didn't die from a bite by his pet monkey. [Possibly also didn't have the controversial marriage just before that as well]. That would have increased support from the allies, who mistrusted Constantine I, who regained the throne on his son's death, the dismissal of some of the better Greek generals and the unwise expansion of the conflict with the Turks.

[lordroel]

Jul 1, 2017 12:19:41 GMT stevep said:

Interesting that the 1st map excludes Constantinople and keeps control of the straits in [presumably Turkish] hands.

I have toyed with scenarios where the Greeks actually win and think it would be possible for them to control both the straits and most of the Ionian coast region. As the article says holding it in the longer run might be more difficult. [However if as a result you have a more equal expulsion of populations then Greece won't be as strained and divided as OTL. Also, while they would still see the Greek population expelled from the Pontic region they would have much of the richest territory in Anatolia and you might see a significant rise in Greek population as a result.

One big butterfly might be if Alexander I of Greece didn't die from a bite by his pet monkey. [Possibly also didn't have the controversial marriage just before that as well]. That would have increased support from the allies, who mistrusted Constantine I, who regained the throne on his son's death, the dismissal of some of the better Greek generals and the unwise expansion of the conflict with the Turks.

Would we be correct if Greater Greece came into being than it would result that the Turkish might join the Axis and later in war where they might try to reclaim lost Turkish lands.

[stevep]

Jul 1, 2017 12:38:00 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 1, 2017 12:19:41 GMT stevep said:

Interesting that the 1st map excludes Constantinople and keeps control of the straits in [presumably Turkish] hands.

I have toyed with scenarios where the Greeks actually win and think it would be possible for them to control both the straits and most of the Ionian coast region. As the article says holding it in the longer run might be more difficult. [However if as a result you have a more equal expulsion of populations then Greece won't be as strained and divided as OTL. Also, while they would still see the Greek population expelled from the Pontic region they would have much of the richest territory in Anatolia and you might see a significant rise in Greek population as a result.

One big butterfly might be if Alexander I of Greece didn't die from a bite by his pet monkey. [Possibly also didn't have the controversial marriage just before that as well]. That would have increased support from the allies, who mistrusted Constantine I, who regained the throne on his son's death, the dismissal of some of the better Greek generals and the unwise expansion of the conflict with the Turks.

Would we be correct if Greater Greece came into being than it would result that the Turkish might join the Axis and later in war where they might try to reclaim lost Turkish lands.

  Well one idea I've been toying with, in response to the otherhistory.proboards.com/thread/1342/dbwi-nerf-united-kingdom by wiessaul on the Endless World site is that one effect of the stronger Britain, plus other factors, is that the Greeks win fairly big as I mention.  The Turks lose Cilicia as well which becomes a French protectorate for Armenians fleeing the partition of Armenia between Turks and Soviets.  [This latter is roughly as OTL but because the Turks are weaker the Soviets get a larger slice.  The Turkish state lacks much international support, is looking over its shoulder at the Soviets and then wracked by its own civil war between nationalists and Islamic elements.  Probably also some Kurdish unrest as well.

  As such its in turmoil for quite a while while Greece has the stability it lacked OTL.  It doesn't get its act together until the early 30's,

  In 1939-40 the war in Poland and western Europe goes roughly as OTL although a more advanced Britain, especially with a stronger navy goes a bit better.  Because Greece is a lot stronger Mussolini instead of purely an Italian attack from Albania makes an alliance with the Bulgarians [offering them Thrace and hinting at Constantinople] and the Turks.  Greece is able to hold off the initial attacks as OTL, although heavily pressed and initially rejects direct British aid, again as OTL, because it fears German intervention.  The Italian action frustrates Hitler who wants the Balkans stable and Mussolini to concentrate on Egypt and also Stalin who doesn't want clearly Axis orientated powers in control of the straits.  [They had some mistrust of Greece because the latter was also boosted by absorbing much of Wrangel's White Russian army after its retreat from the Crimean but relations had improved since due to both's fears of fascism - at least until Stalin signs his pact with Hitler].

  As OTL Germany intervenes in spring 41 to secure the Balkans before their attack on Russia.  All of western [i.e. European Greece] is lost but with increasing British aid they manage to hold the Ionian lands and most of the islands, while Britain has also cleared Libya.  [Both because its a bit more powerful and because with so much else going on and a markedly stronger Greece Hitler doesn't send the Afikca Korp to Libya. 

  Once the Germans attack Russia Stalin quickly mobilises some forces to attack the Turks from the east and with the lesser pressure on the Greeks and British from Germany their able to drive eastwards.  The Turkish state is partitioned between Greeco-British occupation in the west and Soviet in the east.  Post war and the defeat of the Nazis the former Turkish territory is divided into three sections, with the west occupied by the Greeks - albeit uncomfortably - and the east split between a Turkish SSR and a Kirdish one.  [Stalin playing divide and rule in the face of continued Turkish unrest.]

  That's about as far as I've drafted it so far but the 20thC is not a good one for Turkey.  They are one of the groups who lose big compared to OTL.  - I keep having assorted ideas and put things together but am too lazy/cowardly to actually formalise something and post it.

  Steve

[lordroel]

Jul 2, 2017 11:52:24 GMT stevep said:

Jul 1, 2017 12:38:00 GMT lordroel said:

Would we be correct if Greater Greece came into being than it would result that the Turkish might join the Axis and later in war where they might try to reclaim lost Turkish lands.

  Well one idea I've been toying with, in response to the otherhistory.proboards.com/thread/1342/dbwi-nerf-united-kingdom by wiessaul on the Endless World site is that one effect of the stronger Britain, plus other factors, is that the Greeks win fairly big as I mention.  The Turks lose Cilicia as well which becomes a French protectorate for Armenians fleeing the partition of Armenia between Turks and Soviets.  [This latter is roughly as OTL but because the Turks are weaker the Soviets get a larger slice.  The Turkish state lacks much international support, is looking over its shoulder at the Soviets and then wracked by its own civil war between nationalists and Islamic elements.  Probably also some Kurdish unrest as well.

  As such its in turmoil for quite a while while Greece has the stability it lacked OTL.  It doesn't get its act together until the early 30's,

  In 1939-40 the war in Poland and western Europe goes roughly as OTL although a more advanced Britain, especially with a stronger navy goes a bit better.  Because Greece is a lot stronger Mussolini instead of purely an Italian attack from Albania makes an alliance with the Bulgarians [offering them Thrace and hinting at Constantinople] and the Turks.  Greece is able to hold off the initial attacks as OTL, although heavily pressed and initially rejects direct British aid, again as OTL, because it fears German intervention.  The Italian action frustrates Hitler who wants the Balkans stable and Mussolini to concentrate on Egypt and also Stalin who doesn't want clearly Axis orientated powers in control of the straits.  [They had some mistrust of Greece because the latter was also boosted by absorbing much of Wrangel's White Russian army after its retreat from the Crimean but relations had improved since due to both's fears of fascism - at least until Stalin signs his pact with Hitler].

  As OTL Germany intervenes in spring 41 to secure the Balkans before their attack on Russia.  All of western [i.e. European Greece] is lost but with increasing British aid they manage to hold the Ionian lands and most of the islands, while Britain has also cleared Libya.  [Both because its a bit more powerful and because with so much else going on and a markedly stronger Greece Hitler doesn't send the Afikca Korp to Libya. 

  Once the Germans attack Russia Stalin quickly mobilises some forces to attack the Turks from the east and with the lesser pressure on the Greeks and British from Germany their able to drive eastwards.  The Turkish state is partitioned between Greeco-British occupation in the west and Soviet in the east.  Post war and the defeat of the Nazis the former Turkish territory is divided into three sections, with the west occupied by the Greeks - albeit uncomfortably - and the east split between a Turkish SSR and a Kirdish one.  [Stalin playing divide and rule in the face of continued Turkish unrest.]

  That's about as far as I've drafted it so far but the 20thC is not a good one for Turkey.  They are one of the groups who lose big compared to OTL.  - I keep having assorted ideas and put things together but am too lazy/cowardly to actually formalise something and post it.

  Steve

Would a Greece that takes a bite of of Turkey also mean that we might see a Armenia state as was planed, that leaves Turkey as a smaller weak state hostile to its neighbors.

[stevep]

Jul 2, 2017 11:54:11 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 2, 2017 11:52:24 GMT stevep said:

  Well one idea I've been toying with, in response to the otherhistory.proboards.com/thread/1342/dbwi-nerf-united-kingdom by wiessaul on the Endless World site is that one effect of the stronger Britain, plus other factors, is that the Greeks win fairly big as I mention.  The Turks lose Cilicia as well which becomes a French protectorate for Armenians fleeing the partition of Armenia between Turks and Soviets.  [This latter is roughly as OTL but because the Turks are weaker the Soviets get a larger slice.  The Turkish state lacks much international support, is looking over its shoulder at the Soviets and then wracked by its own civil war between nationalists and Islamic elements.  Probably also some Kurdish unrest as well.

  As such its in turmoil for quite a while while Greece has the stability it lacked OTL.  It doesn't get its act together until the early 30's,

  In 1939-40 the war in Poland and western Europe goes roughly as OTL although a more advanced Britain, especially with a stronger navy goes a bit better.  Because Greece is a lot stronger Mussolini instead of purely an Italian attack from Albania makes an alliance with the Bulgarians [offering them Thrace and hinting at Constantinople] and the Turks.  Greece is able to hold off the initial attacks as OTL, although heavily pressed and initially rejects direct British aid, again as OTL, because it fears German intervention.  The Italian action frustrates Hitler who wants the Balkans stable and Mussolini to concentrate on Egypt and also Stalin who doesn't want clearly Axis orientated powers in control of the straits.  [They had some mistrust of Greece because the latter was also boosted by absorbing much of Wrangel's White Russian army after its retreat from the Crimean but relations had improved since due to both's fears of fascism - at least until Stalin signs his pact with Hitler].

  As OTL Germany intervenes in spring 41 to secure the Balkans before their attack on Russia.  All of western [i.e. European Greece] is lost but with increasing British aid they manage to hold the Ionian lands and most of the islands, while Britain has also cleared Libya.  [Both because its a bit more powerful and because with so much else going on and a markedly stronger Greece Hitler doesn't send the Afikca Korp to Libya. 

  Once the Germans attack Russia Stalin quickly mobilises some forces to attack the Turks from the east and with the lesser pressure on the Greeks and British from Germany their able to drive eastwards.  The Turkish state is partitioned between Greeco-British occupation in the west and Soviet in the east.  Post war and the defeat of the Nazis the former Turkish territory is divided into three sections, with the west occupied by the Greeks - albeit uncomfortably - and the east split between a Turkish SSR and a Kirdish one.  [Stalin playing divide and rule in the face of continued Turkish unrest.]

  That's about as far as I've drafted it so far but the 20thC is not a good one for Turkey.  They are one of the groups who lose big compared to OTL.  - I keep having assorted ideas and put things together but am too lazy/cowardly to actually formalise something and post it.

  Steve

Would a Greece that takes a bite of of Turkey also mean that we might see a Armenia state as was planed, that leaves Turkey as a smaller weak state hostile to its neighbors.

  Gods that was a quick response.  I thought I was the only one who spent 24-7 on the assorted AH sites.

  Technically there are two Armenian states.  The Soviets one, as OTL but a bit larger and possibly also regaining a bit more after the Turkish defeat in WWII and the smaller one in what was Cilicia which is part of the French protectorate of Syria.  Not sure how they would interact after the fall of the Soviet empire as they would have either a Turkish or [more likely] Kurdish state between them.  Also haven't decided how much Greekification [if you know what I mean] would occur in their part of western 'Turkey' during the cold war and how good or bad relations between Greece and what Turkish state emerges are.  Suspect it would be pretty bad as likely that a number of Greeks would have settled in those territories and the Greeks would probably have thought of it as theirs so you could see a nasty guerilla war there.

[lordroel]

Jul 2, 2017 12:00:36 GMT stevep said:

Jul 2, 2017 11:54:11 GMT lordroel said:

Would a Greece that takes a bite of of Turkey also mean that we might see a Armenia state as was planed, that leaves Turkey as a smaller weak state hostile to its neighbors.

  Gods that was a quick response.  I thought I was the only one who spent 24-7 on the assorted AH sites.

I have to make sure that all post are answered in less than 24 hours (depending if i know anything about the subject).

We can both agree that relations between a Greater Greece and Turkey will be more colder than it was for a long time in OTL.