simpleton
Chief petty officer
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Post by simpleton on Aug 20, 2017 0:05:59 GMT
OTL Protestant Dutch rebelled against Philip II of Spain, the strongest monarch at the time. After several years of costly war for Holland, Spain and England (which financed Holland for a while). Philip II died in 1598, a year later expeditions to the East Indies started producing fabulous profits. So the Dutch started expanding their navy and merchant fleet rapidly. Starting in 1630 the Dutch captured a surprisingly large part of the Bazilian coast, including Recife. Unfortunately for Holland, migration to the large colonies was ridiculously small. Consequently, despite having the most powerful navy in the 17th century, the Dutch lost invaluable Formosa, New Amsterdam (NYC), very large Guiana and Brazilian territories defended by very small Dutch forces and failed to take valuable and weak Portuguese outposts like the Azores, Cape Verde, Bombay, Macao, Goa, Timor for lack of adequate forces (despite the Portuguese navy being much inferior to the Dutch navy.
Dutch migration to huge South Africa was also extremely small and instead of securing the invaluable, well communicated coast and remaining in contact and trade with Holland, Afrikaners became isolated far in the interior.
Nevertheless, Holland traded several times more far east goods, African slaves, etc, than powerful Spain (Manila trade), Britain, Portugal and France combined during the 17th and 18th centuries.
It is incredible that in 1700 Spain (awash with silver and gold from Peru and the New Spain) had a small fleet and sailed a ridiculous galleon each way per year in the Manila trade (through Mexico), the Dutch sailed over a dozen galleons per year both ways to the East Indies at much lower cost.
ATL At the beginning of the 12 year truce Holland decides to stop fighting powerfull armies and navies in Europe and proposes a deal with Spain. 1) Dutch protestants under 35 years old will abandon Holland within 20 years, provided Spain cedes barely inhabited Texas and the distant and barely colonized Montevideo and Valparaiso and helps to transport Dutch migrants to these colonies. 2) Holland will purchase Nicaragua and Panama pay for them by transporting Manila trade goods between the Oceans for 5 years. After that, Sapin will pay for transcontinental transportation with 5% of transported goods. Spain will pay for loading and unloading on both coasts. This will allow for much faster transportation that from Acapulco to Veracruz and at a lower cost for Spain. This will enable Spain to operate 2 or more galleons each way per year, greatly increasing profits.
Spain is fed up with the costly, never ending war and it wants to increase trade. Texas is completely useless for Spain. Montevideo is not only useless, Spain has fought Brazil over it and it and Valparaiso are simply to far from Spain. All 3 have extremely few non Indian inhabitants in 1609 and hostile Indians. Spain agrees to the deal, which includes tranporting 100,000 Dutch to Texas, 40,000 to Montevideo and 20,000 to Valparaiso.
Dutch migration begins immediately. within a year of the agreement, 20,000 Dutch sail for newly founded New Amsterdam, 20,000 for Texas, 10,000 for Montevideo and 10,000 each for the East indies, the Cape in South Africa, and 4,000 to valparaiso both in Spanish and Dutch ships. 2,000 Dutch and 5,000 African slaves arrive in Nicaragua and Panama and start building a gravity operated rail road (loaded carts going down hill will pull slightly lighter carts moving uphill,so that a load is moved simultaneously in each direction. Ballast for the heavier cart is provided by logs or water added at the top). The following year even more migrants arrive in each colony.
(
More migrants arrive in all these colonies in 1911
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Post by eurowatch on Aug 20, 2017 9:02:13 GMT
OTL Protestant Dutch rebelled against Philip II of Spain, the strongest monarch at the time. After several years of costly war for Holland, Spain and England (which financed Holland for a while). Philip II died in 1598, a year later expeditions to the East Indies started producing fabulous profits. So the Dutch started expanding their navy and merchant fleet rapidly. Starting in 1630 the Dutch captured a surprisingly large part of the Bazilian coast, including Recife. Unfortunately for Holland, migration to the large colonies was ridiculously small. Consequently, despite having the most powerful navy in the 17th century, the Dutch lost invaluable Formosa, New Amsterdam (NYC), very large Guiana and Brazilian territories defended by very small Dutch forces and failed to take valuable and weak Portuguese outposts like the Azores, Cape Verde, Bombay, Macao, Goa, Timor for lack of adequate forces (despite the Portuguese navy being much inferior to the Dutch navy. Dutch migration to huge South Africa was also extremely small and instead of securing the invaluable, well communicated coast and remaining in contact and trade with Holland, Afrikaners became isolated far in the interior. Nevertheless, Holland traded several times more far east goods, African slaves, etc, than powerful Spain (Manila trade), Britain, Portugal and France combined during the 17th and 18th centuries. It is incredible that in 1700 Spain (awash with silver and gold from Peru and the New Spain) had a small fleet and sailed a ridiculous galleon each way per year in the Manila trade (through Mexico), the Dutch sailed over a dozen galleons per year both ways to the East Indies at much lower cost. ATL At the beginning of the 12 year truce Holland decides to stop fighting powerfull armies and navies in Europe and proposes a deal with Spain. 1) Dutch protestants under 35 years old will abandon Holland within 20 years, provided Spain cedes barely inhabited Texas and the distant and barely colonized Montevideo and Valparaiso and helps to transport Dutch migrants to these colonies. 2) Holland will purchase Nicaragua and Panama pay for them by transporting Manila trade goods between the Oceans for 5 years. After that, Sapin will pay for transcontinental transportation with 5% of transported goods. Spain will pay for loading and unloading on both coasts. This will allow for much faster transportation that from Acapulco to Veracruz and at a lower cost for Spain. This will enable Spain to operate 2 or more galleons each way per year, greatly increasing profits. Spain is fed up with the costly, never ending war and it wants to increase trade. Texas is completely useless for Spain. Montevideo is not only useless, Spain has fought Brazil over it and it and Valparaiso are simply to far from Spain. All 3 have extremely few non Indian inhabitants in 1609 and hostile Indians. Spain agrees to the deal, which includes tranporting 100,000 Dutch to Texas, 40,000 to Montevideo and 20,000 to Valparaiso. Dutch migration begins immediately. within a year of the agreement, 20,000 Dutch sail for newly founded New Amsterdam, 20,000 for Texas, 10,000 for Montevideo and 10,000 each for the East indies, the Cape in South Africa, and 4,000 to valparaiso both in Spanish and Dutch ships. 2,000 Dutch and 5,000 African slaves arrive in Nicaragua and Panama and start building a gravity operated rail road (loaded carts going down hill will pull slightly lighter carts moving uphill,so that a load is moved simultaneously in each direction. Ballast for the heavier cart is provided by logs or water added at the top). The following year even more migrants arrive in each colony. ( More migrants arrive in all these colonies in 1911 Why would they abondon their country when they were by and large, winning the war? |
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lordroel
Administrator
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Post by lordroel on Aug 20, 2017 9:44:54 GMT
OTL Protestant Dutch rebelled against Philip II of Spain, the strongest monarch at the time. After several years of costly war for Holland, Spain and England (which financed Holland for a while). Philip II died in 1598, a year later expeditions to the East Indies started producing fabulous profits. So the Dutch started expanding their navy and merchant fleet rapidly. Starting in 1630 the Dutch captured a surprisingly large part of the Bazilian coast, including Recife. Unfortunately for Holland, migration to the large colonies was ridiculously small. Consequently, despite having the most powerful navy in the 17th century, the Dutch lost invaluable Formosa, New Amsterdam (NYC), very large Guiana and Brazilian territories defended by very small Dutch forces and failed to take valuable and weak Portuguese outposts like the Azores, Cape Verde, Bombay, Macao, Goa, Timor for lack of adequate forces (despite the Portuguese navy being much inferior to the Dutch navy. Dutch migration to huge South Africa was also extremely small and instead of securing the invaluable, well communicated coast and remaining in contact and trade with Holland, Afrikaners became isolated far in the interior. Nevertheless, Holland traded several times more far east goods, African slaves, etc, than powerful Spain (Manila trade), Britain, Portugal and France combined during the 17th and 18th centuries. It is incredible that in 1700 Spain (awash with silver and gold from Peru and the New Spain) had a small fleet and sailed a ridiculous galleon each way per year in the Manila trade (through Mexico), the Dutch sailed over a dozen galleons per year both ways to the East Indies at much lower cost. ATL At the beginning of the 12 year truce Holland decides to stop fighting powerfull armies and navies in Europe and proposes a deal with Spain. 1) Dutch protestants under 35 years old will abandon Holland within 20 years, provided Spain cedes barely inhabited Texas and the distant and barely colonized Montevideo and Valparaiso and helps to transport Dutch migrants to these colonies. 2) Holland will purchase Nicaragua and Panama pay for them by transporting Manila trade goods between the Oceans for 5 years. After that, Sapin will pay for transcontinental transportation with 5% of transported goods. Spain will pay for loading and unloading on both coasts. This will allow for much faster transportation that from Acapulco to Veracruz and at a lower cost for Spain. This will enable Spain to operate 2 or more galleons each way per year, greatly increasing profits. Spain is fed up with the costly, never ending war and it wants to increase trade. Texas is completely useless for Spain. Montevideo is not only useless, Spain has fought Brazil over it and it and Valparaiso are simply to far from Spain. All 3 have extremely few non Indian inhabitants in 1609 and hostile Indians. Spain agrees to the deal, which includes tranporting 100,000 Dutch to Texas, 40,000 to Montevideo and 20,000 to Valparaiso. Dutch migration begins immediately. within a year of the agreement, 20,000 Dutch sail for newly founded New Amsterdam, 20,000 for Texas, 10,000 for Montevideo and 10,000 each for the East indies, the Cape in South Africa, and 4,000 to valparaiso both in Spanish and Dutch ships. 2,000 Dutch and 5,000 African slaves arrive in Nicaragua and Panama and start building a gravity operated rail road (loaded carts going down hill will pull slightly lighter carts moving uphill,so that a load is moved simultaneously in each direction. Ballast for the heavier cart is provided by logs or water added at the top). The following year even more migrants arrive in each colony. ( More migrants arrive in all these colonies in 1911 Why would they abondon their country when they were by and large, winning the war? Second that. |
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Aug 20, 2017 16:17:23 GMT
Why would they abondon their country when they were by and large, winning the war? Second that. 3rd that. Even when Charles II allied with France, the most powerful state in Europe at the time, in the 1680's the Dutch were able to successfully defend their country. Plus also a suggestion of abandoning the country in the 17thC would have been deeply divisive. You are likely to see large numbers of people, especially in rural areas deciding to risk staying. Especially since the death toll from trans-continental traffic was pretty high at this point. Furthermore this would assume that the Dutch would trust the Spanish. They would be highly exposed while large numbers of people were in transit while the Spanish would want some troops in the Netherlands to prevent anyone else grabbing the lands as the Dutch leave. |
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simpleton
Chief petty officer
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Post by simpleton on Aug 21, 2017 17:40:03 GMT
Yes and they successfully defended against Louis XIV and periodic sea and river floods, but at a great cost for 2 centuries of war and for a tiny speck of marshy land. Eventually, they were steamrolled by Napoleon (losing trade for a while and not losing indefinitely the DEI, only because Britain returned it after Napoleon fell) the Japanese (owing to a ridiculous Dutch population, navy and colonial army in the DEI with oil, rubber, tin, nickel, etc,) and to Hitler. The Kaiser could and should have easily invaded the Holland along the Belgian border, to bypass the strong forts in east Belgium, but he decided to charge the forts and waste invaluable weeks, men, munitions, etc, which allowed Britain and France to mobilize and stall the offensive.
Moreover, the Dutch did not successfully defend their country against Louis XIV and England, it was the Austrians, Spaniards, etc, who held back France and Britain for 6 years, at great cost for all European economies and populations and to the great benefit of the Ottomans. France and England did not crusg the Dutch, only because they did not coordinate attack by sea and land, but attacked only by land and when stalled by flooded fields, only by sea, so the Dutch could first fight on land and then board the ships and surprise the Anglo-French fleet in Solebay (inflicting little damage, but killing an important admiral) and then more successfully in other battles. Had the Anglo-French forces attacked by sea and land simultaneously, they would have been crushed.
The point is that, as in the case of Israel today (surrounded by populous enemies with large economies and armies), Holland and its allies wasted excellent opportunities, territories and resources fighting in Europe instead of reinforcing invaluable colonies wchich it did not defend so well as Holland, owing to tiny armies. Holland lost New Amsterdam (NYC), huge Dutch Brazil (Recife, etc,), Formosa, etc, and failed to take Portuguese Timor, Macao, etc, all of them defended by ridiculous forces, precisely because it wasted tens of thousands of men fighting huge armies in Europe.
New Holland, or at the time defenseless Texas, Acadia, New Orleans, the Chesapeake Bay, Montevideo, Buenos Aires, South Africa, etc, were far more valuable and easier to take than the 7 provices, having to defend them against formidable armies and periodic floods.
If shipbuilders, traders, textile, industries, government, scholars, etc, decide to leave, remaining peasants will have to become protestant and being a peasant under a foreign king, which is more interested in exploiting the land than in making it thrive is not very attractive. In any case, by taking Acadia or the other territories mentioned, farmers could be replaced with the foreign settlers already there, more experienced in working the new lands.
It makes a lot more sense to reinforce and extend valuable territories, dominate world trade with much lower cost in lives and defense, than to defend a small piece of land without posibility of expansion other than into the sea. Draining 1,000 akers of land, filling them with fertile earth and defending them for enemy and flood cost thousands of times more than taking and defending the huge territories mentioned above, with sparsely populated
neighbors.
Europeans never realized the value of large or strategically located territories outside Europe and wasted large armies and economies fighting over small territories. Louis XIV lost huge, hardly populated New France, while he wasted his armies fighting in Europe. Had he sent several thousand men to the Americas, he could have taken them all. Spain fough France, Austria, Britain, the Ottoman empire, etc, for centuries, wasting the gold, silver, etc, and Spaniards. It eventually lost all important colonies when Napoleon invaded it and it could not stop revolts in the Americas. It lost the PI and Cuba, because the navy was obsolete and weak and the colonial armies were tsmall. Had any European nation forgot about fighting Europeans and Ottomans in Eurasia and concentrated on the Americas, South Africa, East Inies, Philippines, Japan, etc, the whole world would have benefitted, as less Europeans died and huge, sparsely populated territories became more productive.
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simpleton
Chief petty officer
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Post by simpleton on Aug 21, 2017 18:25:58 GMT
In 1609 when New Amsterdam was founded and ATL the migration begins, Jamaica has 3,000 inhabitants (the Taino have died and there are Spaniards and a few hundred black slaves). The Dutch can easily buy it from Spain and settle 5,000 Dutch there to produce sugar, rum, tobacco, etc,
In 1609 the non-native populations of other valuable territories were: New England O (the first 102 arriving in 160 aboard the Matflower, 42 of them dying within months), Acadia (300), New Orleans 0 (it would not be founded until a century later), Texas 0, Yucatan Peninsula 1,400, Belize 0, Northern Brazil (a huge area including Recife, etc,) 3,200, Southern Brazil (a very large area including Sao Paulo, Montevideo, not yet founded, etc, which became Dutch Brazil rapidly in 1630, when it was more populated) 2,800, even good size Cuba (the major sugar exporter at the time) has just 23,600).
Even Ireland had 1.2 million, Denmark-Norway had a million people, Sweden had 1.3 million and Scotland had 800,000 all spread over a large area and much weaker navies than the Dutch navy. Therefore, it would be easier for the Dutch Republic (1.5 million and a much more powerful navy) to invade first Denmark, then Norway, then Sweden, then Scotland and finally Ireland (acquiring several ports, shipyards and large numbers of sailors and settlers for Dutch colonies) and ally itself and trade intensely with huge but not so populous Polish-Lithuania (8 million and practically no navy) to retain a larger and more defensible foothold in Europe, without powerful neighbors (France alone had 20 million and a formidable industry. England-Wales had 4.4 million).
Defending Ireland, Hadrian's wall, the narrow southern Denmark border and the isthmus between the White Sea and the Baltic is far easier than defending the extensive Dutch borders. Holland would also gain absolute control of Baltic trade.
So the opportunities away from Holland are a much better option, than losing large numbers just to retain a small territory surrounded by powerful armies.
Most incredibly at the time Japan had 16.2 million people, more than Russia (14 million), Polish Lithuania (8 million), Persia (3.2 million) or all the Americas´ non natives combined (under 1.5 million, ten times fewer). Tiny Japan had 1/10 the population of huge China (160 million)!
Infinitesimal Hawaii had more people than there were non natives in all the colonies of France, Holland, Britain, Portugal (excluding central, coastal Brazil) and Texas, California, New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada and Yucatan, all combined!
Accordingly, Holland would have benefitted greatly from discovering Hawaii in the 17th century and using Hawaiians to help populate the American Pacific and from using Okinawan settlers to develop huge Borneo, Pacific Americas, Palawan, Mindoro, New Guinea, New Zealand, etc,
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