Germany and Russia form a two capital and emperor empire, like Rome and Constantinople in 1850 Germa

[simpleton]

OTL
in 1949 Frederick William IV (FW) refused the imperial crown of Germany when the Frankfurt Parliament offered it to him. Prussia already had the only mass produced breech loading, needle rifle in the world. 
The needle gun was not used in anger until 1862 against Denmark and then in 1866 against Austria. But against France, it was only deployed in 1870-71, when it was obsolete (paper cartridges and single shot) , relative to the Henry rifle, Remington pistol and Gatling repeating guns used in the civil war, all using metal cartridges.

When Germany finally unified in 1870, Nationalism, the economy, industry, the armed forces, agriculture, etc, blossomed rapidly.

By refusing the crown, FW delayed German delayed unification and prosperity 22 years and use of the cutting edge needle gun against France 21 years. Allowing Napoleon III time to develop French industry, armed forces, prestige, ruin Russia in the Crimean war, ruin the Mexican economy in the Intervention, kick Austria out of Italy, develop a needle gun and gather his whole army in France for |870.


ATL,
in 1849 FW accepts the crown and becomes Kaiser. Germany blossoms much more rapidly than the second republic and Napoleon III's France. FW invites the Danish king, government officials and military leaders to observe army maneuvers across the Danish border and a demonstration of the needle gun against his best musket soldiers. The rifle far outperforms the musket, deeply impressing the Danes, already impressed by German maneuvers and artillery. FW explains than if Denmark requests annexation to blossom, like Germany is doing. Otherwise the 20 divisions performing maneuvers and armed with with Dreyse rifles and 600 cannon will invade Denmark within 6 hours. In case annexation is chosen, Germany will keep Danish shipyards working full capacity and build RR lines, more shipyards, a canal, factories, etc, The Danish armed forces will be absorbed into the German ones and armed with the best weapons in the world. The choice between prosperity with Germany or bloodshed and devastation against Germany is yours.

Denmark requests annexation, greatly boosting the German navy, shipbuilding capacity, coastline, merchant fleet, providing control of access to the Baltic and an isthmus to build a much shorter canal,  than in N. Germany.

A month later, a now much stronger Germany repeats the same tactic with Switzerland, but deploying 30 divisions. Switzerland requests annexation and allows access to German forces. Germany repeats the same maneuver with Holland, deploying 35 divisions and 800 guns along the Dutch border. Demostrates the Dreyse rifle and extends an ultimatum. Holland has seen the economic boom in Germany and the rapid expansion and it knows it cannot defeat Swiss, German and Danish forces. It requests annexation. Finally, Germany repeats the maneuver with Austria, deploying 40 divisions in Swtzerland and Germany on the Austrian and Italian borders. Austria also requests annexation.

With the much larger German Navy, Germany invades Sardinia, Naples-Sicily and weak Boer South Africa and sends hoards of European immigrants to Suriname, DEI, SA, etc, which start laying RR, clearing jungles, building shipyards, steelmills, towns, cities, etc, the colonies thrive and more young Dutch migrate to them in a year than in centuries of Dutch rule, without development.

A much stronger Germany (with control of the Baltic) puts FW in a position to travel to St Petersburg for a week summit with the Tsar in 1850. He explains that Russia cannot fight a war without RR south of Moscow and that Germany controls the Baltic, so it can stop the RN and French navies entering it. He explains that Russia has the minerals, lumber, land and labor force desperately needed by Germany and that if Germany built 6,000 km of RR south of Moscow toward Krakow, Lviv, Kiev, Kharkov and Odessa and German companies built huge steelmills, shipyards, factories, etc, Russia would blossom as Germany is doing. He proposes fusion of the 2 mighty empires into an invincible one: the United Empires (UE), stretching from the Atlantic and Mediterranean to the Indian and Pacific, which can invade the Ottoman empire, the Americas, Japan, China, Thailand, etc,

If Germany arms and trains the Russian army, all west and Central Europe and Persia: expanding and aggressive France and Britain, weak Spain and Portugal (with their invaluable navies, shipyards, colonies and bases, merchant fleets and coaling stations all over the world), etc, will have to request annexation, rather than invasion by 150 Russo-German divisions. Once the UE controls all armies and navies in Europe, it can rapidly invade the Ottoman empire from Persia, the Caucasus, the Black and Mediterranean Sea, etc, and control the Bosphorus.

At that point the imperial navy will be stronger than the RN, so the UE can invade Ireland with 10 divisions and 1,000 ships, seize hundreds of British ships all over the world and force Britain to request annexation.

[lordroel]

Oct 4, 2017 18:01:44 GMT simpleton said:

OTL
in 1948 Frederick William tIV (FW) refused the imperial crown of Germany when the Frankfurt Parliament offered it to him. Prussia already had the only mass produced breech loading, needle rifle in the world. 
The needle gun was not used in anger until 1862 agianst Denmark and then in 1866 against Austria. But against France, it was only deployed in 1870, when it was obsolete (paper cartridges and single shot) , relative to the Henry rifle, Remington piston and Gatling repeating guns used in the civil war, all using metal cartridges.
When German finally unified in 1870, Nationalism, the economy, industry, the armed forces, agriculture, etc, blossomed rapidly.

By refusing the crown, FW delayed German delayed unification and prosperity 23 years and use of the cutting edge needle gun against France 22 years. Allowing Napoleon III to develop French industry, armed forces, prestige, etc,


ATL,
in 1848 FW accepts the crown and becomes Kaiser. Germany blossoms much more rapidly than Napoleon III's France. FW invites the Danish king, government officials and military leaders to observe army maneuvers across the Danish border and a demonstration of the needle gun against his best musket soldiers. The rifle far outperforms the musket, deeply impressing the Danes, already impressed by German maneuvers and artillery. FW explains than if Denmark requests annexation to blossom, like Germany is doing. Otherwise the 20 divisions performing maneuvers and armed with with repeating gun will invade Denmark within 6 hours. In case annexation is chosen, Germany will keep Danish shipyards working full capacity  The Danish armed forces will be absorbed into the German ones and armed with the best weapons in the world. The choice between prosperity with Germany or bloodshed and devastation against Germany is yours.

Denmark requests annexation, greatly boosting the German navy, shipbuilding capacity, coastline and control of access to the Baltic.

A month later a now much stronger Germany repeats the same tactic with Switzerland, but deploying 35 divisions. Switzerland requests annexation and allows access to German forces.

A much stronger Germany, with control of the Baltic puts FW in a position to travel to St Petersburg for a week summit with the Tsar. He explains that Russia cannot fight a war without RR south of Moscow and that Germany controls the Baltic, so it can stop the RN and French navies entering it. He explains that Russia has the minerals, lumber, land and labor force desperately needed by Germany and that if Germany buily 6,000 km of RR south of Moscow toward Krakow, Lviv, Kiev, Kharkov and Odessa and German companies built huge steelmill, shipyards, factories, etc, Russia would blossom as Germany is doing. He proposes fusion of the 2 mighty empires into an invincible one stretching from the Atlantic and Mediterranean to the Pacific, which can invade the Ottoman empire, the Americas, etc,

If Germany arms and trains the Russian army, all west and Central Europe and Persia: expanding and aggressive France, Holland, Spain and Portugal (with their invaluable navies, shipyards, colonies and bases and coaling stations all over the world), Austria, which controls Italy and Hungary), etc, will have to request annexation, rather than invasion by 150 Russo-German divisions. Once the emprie controls all armies and navies in Europe, it can rapidly invade the Ottoman empire from Persia, the Caucasus, the Black and Mediterranean Sea, etc, an control the Bosphorus.

At that point the imperial navy will be stronger than the RN, so we can invade Ireland with 10 divisions and 1,000 ships and force Britain to request annexation.

Do you have anythings against Holland because it always seems to be invaded by one of your timelines.

[eurowatch]

Oct 4, 2017 18:12:15 GMT lordroel said:

Oct 4, 2017 18:01:44 GMT simpleton said:

OTL
in 1948 Frederick William tIV (FW) refused the imperial crown of Germany when the Frankfurt Parliament offered it to him. Prussia already had the only mass produced breech loading, needle rifle in the world. 
The needle gun was not used in anger until 1862 agianst Denmark and then in 1866 against Austria. But against France, it was only deployed in 1870, when it was obsolete (paper cartridges and single shot) , relative to the Henry rifle, Remington piston and Gatling repeating guns used in the civil war, all using metal cartridges.
When German finally unified in 1870, Nationalism, the economy, industry, the armed forces, agriculture, etc, blossomed rapidly.

By refusing the crown, FW delayed German delayed unification and prosperity 23 years and use of the cutting edge needle gun against France 22 years. Allowing Napoleon III to develop French industry, armed forces, prestige, etc,


ATL,
in 1848 FW accepts the crown and becomes Kaiser. Germany blossoms much more rapidly than Napoleon III's France. FW invites the Danish king, government officials and military leaders to observe army maneuvers across the Danish border and a demonstration of the needle gun against his best musket soldiers. The rifle far outperforms the musket, deeply impressing the Danes, already impressed by German maneuvers and artillery. FW explains than if Denmark requests annexation to blossom, like Germany is doing. Otherwise the 20 divisions performing maneuvers and armed with with repeating gun will invade Denmark within 6 hours. In case annexation is chosen, Germany will keep Danish shipyards working full capacity  The Danish armed forces will be absorbed into the German ones and armed with the best weapons in the world. The choice between prosperity with Germany or bloodshed and devastation against Germany is yours.

Denmark requests annexation, greatly boosting the German navy, shipbuilding capacity, coastline and control of access to the Baltic.

A month later a now much stronger Germany repeats the same tactic with Switzerland, but deploying 35 divisions. Switzerland requests annexation and allows access to German forces.

A much stronger Germany, with control of the Baltic puts FW in a position to travel to St Petersburg for a week summit with the Tsar. He explains that Russia cannot fight a war without RR south of Moscow and that Germany controls the Baltic, so it can stop the RN and French navies entering it. He explains that Russia has the minerals, lumber, land and labor force desperately needed by Germany and that if Germany buily 6,000 km of RR south of Moscow toward Krakow, Lviv, Kiev, Kharkov and Odessa and German companies built huge steelmill, shipyards, factories, etc, Russia would blossom as Germany is doing. He proposes fusion of the 2 mighty empires into an invincible one stretching from the Atlantic and Mediterranean to the Pacific, which can invade the Ottoman empire, the Americas, etc,

If Germany arms and trains the Russian army, all west and Central Europe and Persia: expanding and aggressive France, Holland, Spain and Portugal (with their invaluable navies, shipyards, colonies and bases and coaling stations all over the world), Austria, which controls Italy and Hungary), etc, will have to request annexation, rather than invasion by 150 Russo-German divisions. Once the emprie controls all armies and navies in Europe, it can rapidly invade the Ottoman empire from Persia, the Caucasus, the Black and Mediterranean Sea, etc, an control the Bosphorus.

At that point the imperial navy will be stronger than the RN, so we can invade Ireland with 10 divisions and 1,000 ships and force Britain to request annexation.
Do you have anythings against Holland because it always seems to be invaded by one of your timelines.

It instead seems to run on the video game logic that strong powers should always invade and annex their weaker neighbours, geo-politics and military reality be damned.

[lordroel]

Oct 4, 2017 18:33:58 GMT eurowatch said:

Oct 4, 2017 18:12:15 GMT lordroel said:

It instead seems to run on the video game logic that strong powers should always invade and annex their weaker neighbours, geo-politics and military reality be damned.

That might be true.

[doug181]

Seems far fetched to me

[lordroel]

Oct 5, 2017 23:06:44 GMT doug181 said:

Seems far fetched to me

What is far far fetched, that Germany and Russia form a two capital.

[simpleton]

lordroel,

Rome and Constantinople were a two capital empire.

I have nothing against any country. The Dutch navy, coastline, shipyards, agriculture, huge merchant fleet, enterprising population and colonies were invaluable for Germany and it seems a lot more logical to use them to create a strong empire than to allow 2,000 Dutch to rule millions of DEI natives, without developing great European settlements in the DEI and Suriname to everybody's benefit.

It is incredible that the great continental European powers (Germany, France Austria and Russia) wasted millions of people gaining and losing small, overcrowded territories for centuries and took turns supporting or fighting the Ottoman empire inconclusively at great cost, and that Germany, Austria, Denmark, Sweden-Norway and Italy never had a decent colony, while ridiculously weak Holland, Portugal and Spain ruled huge empires until the Spanish-American war and WW II.

It is also incredible that while epic battles took place in Europe over small, low value areas like Silesia (the Austro-Prussian war and then the 7 years war, which wrecked all European economies), huge, very sparsely populated, invaluable territories in South Africa were ruled by a few thousand independent Boers, huge areas in the Americas were defended by ridiculous armies, that a few thousand British ruled over hundreds of millions of Indians, hardly developing India for centuries and that huge areas in Russia remained impoverished and undeveloped thanks to constant wars, which prevented RR construction to settle and exploit them.

Regarding game logic, I have never participated in a computer game. I simply know with certainty that 20 German divisions armed with Dreyse rifles and 600 cannon at the Danish border in 1849 leave Denmark with the options: to sacrifice its army pointlessly or request annexation by a vibrant economy, for France, Austria or Britain cannot arrive in Denmark in time, even if they were willing to face war with a united Germany (OTL a much stronger France in 1862 than in 1849 did not declare war when Prussia, much weaker than Germany invaded Denmark, with only 38,000 Prussians, 100 cannon and 20,000 Austrians, a much smaller force than the 20 German divisions ATL). BTW, Bismark was so stupid that he turned down Christian IX's offer that instead of severing Schleswig-Holstein from Denmark, all Denmark would join the German League. Now that is far fetchedly stupid, for the Danish army, navy, shipyards, coast, population, merchant fleet, agriculture and control of access to the Baltic would be invaluable for Germany when the league, including  Danish troops invade France in 1870.

[simpleton]

Back to this timeline:

While the UE is laying RR in Russian Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Italy, etc, and annexing Britain, it invades Montevideo from Suriname, Thailand from Indochina and Borneo. Formosa, Okinawa and Hawaii from the PI. Maracaibo from the A-B-C Islands and Jamaica, Veracruz and New Orleans from Havana, NYC, Charleston, Baltimore and Philadelphia from Halifax.
 Mexico, Uruguay and Venezuela request annexation as soon as Veracruz, Montevideo and Maracaibo fall. The UE immediately begins to lay a RR line Veracruz-Mexico City (Mexico does not have a single km of RR). The huge UE navy seizes or sinks thousands of US and Latin American ships (merchant, passenger and naval) in weeks.

The fall of New Orleans, NYC, etc, paralyzes the US and allows fast UE advance, the Dreyse rifle (which allows rapid fire from the prone position) and modern artillery and tactics decimate the US army, attacking in formation. After a month of terible losses and rapid UE advance /St Louis and the Mississippi basin have fallen, the US capitulates.

The rapid collapse of Mexico, Venezuela, Uruguay and the US shocks Latin America. Brazil (ruled by a Braganza-Habsburg emperor) requests annexation and all other nations in the America's follow suit.

Simultaneously with operations in America, the UE invades to Ottoman empire, which rapidly collapses. Millions of Muslims are deported to Borneo, South Africa, Suriname, Colombian, Perucian and Brazilian jungles to lay RR and build towns to settle them.

[simpleton]

In 1856 The UE invades Japan, Korea and Manchuria from Okinawa and Indochina. The UE raises, trains and arms troops there and deploys also a large numbers of troops from India, PI, GEI, Ottomans, Formosans, Thais, Indochinese, Europeans, etc, to invade weak China in 1857.

In 1857 China is invaded by 100 divisions and 2,000 ships. China loses 2 million men (half of them surrendering) in a month to artillery and the Dreyse rifle and capitulates. Krupp has built huge steelmills in Sweden, Alsace, Bohemia, Ukraine, India, Kazakhstan, China,  the middle east, the US, Canada, Mexico, South Africa, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Australia and the GEI.
With unlimited steel, railroad ties (from huge lumberyards in Russia, Canada, the US, Borneo, Brazil, Colombia, Peru, etc,) and workforce (10 million Chinese, Indians, Japanese, Russians, Ottomans, Filipinos, GEI natives, Thais, Latin Americans, Europeans, Africans, etc, the UE lays down 2 million km of RR in 10 years, enabling unprecedented migration (by far most RR workers remain in developed areas) into unpopulated, formerly inaccessible prairies in Russia, US, Canada, Argentina, etc, jungles, forests and montain regions (replete with minerals), etc,

Large quantities of steel are also used to build thousands of passenger and cargo ships displacing 100,000 tons to transport millions of immigrants, students, businessmen, armed forces, burocrats, teachers and tourists all over the world and hundreds of millions of tons of cargo every year. They are built in 1,000 shipyards, employing hoards in China, India, Korea, Japan, GEI, Indichina, Manchuria and in every country with suitable coast.

The UE invests unprecedented amounts in reasearch, education, medical services, sanitation, huge industrial plants to mass produce quality goods for the exploding world wide demand, building RR, roads, ports, canals, towns and cities. Prosperity and progress are unprecedented by the increased value of former wasteland.

[simpleton]

Back to December 1848:
When FW learns that the Frankfurt Parliament is locked in discussion about whether to include all of Austria (Hungary, Slavic and Italian territories in a Great Germany) or just German Austria or excluding Austria altogether (small Germany), he requests permission to address Parliament. Eager for official recognition, Parliament immediately grants permission for the following address:

My fellow Germans, although we all long to see a strong, unified Germany thrive, we must sadly admit that while long unified, mighty Britain, France, Russia, the US, Brazil, etc, rapidly expand their economies and territories (the US has just acquired a huge territory from Mexico, with ridiculously low casualties and a small army) & modernize, we have wasted yet another year arguing and divided, a pathetic patchwork of dozens of small, weak nations with heterogenous armies, practically no navies and disjointed RR, road, educational, medical and legal systems, vulnerable to any strong empire or coalition.

Ironically, many of you (perhaps the majority want to either force a strong, united Austria (which has expanded the domain of the German League by invading northern Italy) to sever itself from the majority of its population, so that only German Austria can be part of unified Germany. Even worse, some of you even want to exclude Austria altogether from unified Germany, forgetting that most the rest of the German League members have gained no territory outside the German League (Prussia took Silesia from Austria), while Austria has continuously expanded in non German territories and successfully ruled and developed them, thereby boosting its economy and armed forces and thereby boosting the German League.

Frederick the Great invaded Austrian Silesia, eventually triggering the 7 years war, which ruined all European populations, armies and civilians for years. Imagine what Prussia, Austria, Saxony, Bavaria, etc, could have accomplished had they joined forces in 1756 to attack the Ottoman empire, liberating millions of Balkan Christians from the Ottoman yoke, reclaiming Constantinople, Anatolia, etc, for Europe, instead of tearing each other and the rest of Europe apart in 7 years of devastation and bloodsheed among Europeans and Christians. There should never be another war among Europeans, much less among German nations and the only way to ensure this is to unify the strongest possible Germany now.

Spain weakened itself when it expelled first the Jews and then the Jesuits. The Sun king weakened France greatly when it expelled the Huguenots (the most enterprising Frenchmen). Prussia and Holland prospered when they wellcomed the Huguenots.

A united Netherlands until 1830 (the most successful Germanic nation) prospered with a small population and territory, but a powerful navy and merchant fleet, which enabled unprecendented trade, wealth and acquisition of invaluable, huge colonies all over the world. However, Holland never settled its colonies, so that fter centuries of Dutch rules over millions of natives, there are only a very few thousand Dutch in the DEI, Suriname, etc, a very small Dutch force was defeated and expelled from Formosa and repeated attempts to take Macao and Chinese coast failed for centuries. Belgium doomed itself to medicority by seceding from Holland in 1830, so that millions of Belgians crowd a tiny land, while the endless DEI, Suriname and South Africa (an independent Dutch settlemt) have ridiculously few Europeans.

If Parliament could entice Holland and South Africa to join the German League or unified Germany, the Dutch colonies and South Africa would be rapidly settled, developed and secured with a a million German immigrants in a few years. They would rapiudly build RR lines, roads, towns, cities, shipyards, industries, clear the jungle for plantations of spices, coffee, cacao, coconut, sugar, banana, avocado, guava, tamarind, rubber, etc,
The Afrikaner knowledge of the land and natives and a large number of Europeans would allow a vibrant nation with thousands of km or RR, dozens of shipyards, a steelmill, hundreds of factories and towns and dozens of cities to arise rapidly.
Ironically such rapidly develped areas would attract more Dutch in a year, than have migrated in centuries to inhospitable areas.

Similarly, Switzerland, Denmark and Sweden-Norway are Germanic countries, which would greatly benefit from joining the German League or a united Germany and greatly boost the German economy and prodive invaluable coast, shipyards, sailors, iron ore (Germany would build a gigantic steelmill in Sweden, for mutual benefit, which will enable building RR, ships, machinery, tools, etc, for Germany, Russia, etc,).

The word France comes from the Franks, fierce German warriors, Charlemagne spoke Germanic dialect. Should France join the German League and ceased suppporting the Ottomans against Austrians and Russians, Europe would stop tearing itself apart and thrive and expand east at an unprecedented rate.

How can Parliament expect to successfully create a strong, unified Germany, if it itself remains divided and tries to break up or even exclude Austria, the only strong, united member of the German league to successfully expand German borders for centuries?

Rather than fracture Austria, Let us learn from it and create strength by incorporating other nationalities and help them thrive within our borders.

Rather than divide, destroy, exclude & delay unification even longer, a wise Parliament should unite first itself, then attract Germanic and other nations and include & facilitate union, so we can all prosper in a most strong and prosperous, united Germany in January 1859.

Parliament erupts in applause. the address si published in all German and most European newspapers. FW is confirmed as the strong leader, soon to become Kaiser.

Taking full advantage of his surge in popularity, even before becomeing Kaiser, FW suggests to parliament that all German states send troops to aid Austria to invade all continental Italy in a rapid campaig that will impress France and Switzerland (which will be facing a strong German force near their borsers. He also orders a demostration of the Dreyse rifle and modern tactics and maneuvers to all German league members (especially Austria, which will receive 10,000 rifles and 1/4 million cartridges for the Italian campaign) and prospective members (South Africa, Holland, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, etc,). FW asks Parliamet to secure funds to build Dreyse rifle and paper cartridge factories immediately in Austria and Bavaria, and if Holland, South Africa and SWeden join the league now, also there, so that the huge the unified German army can be rapidly rearmed only the breakthrough gun.

FW suggests to Parliament to offer Holland contracts for 100 ships, construction of a Dreyse rifle factory and RR lines in the DEI, Suriname, etc, if it joins the league within 2 weeks. Offer each Denmark & Sweden-Norway orders for 40 ships and to build RR, shipyards and a canal near the Danish Isthmus and a large steelmill and a Dreyse rifle factory in Sweden if they join the league within 2 weeks. Offer Switzerland construction of RR and Dreyse rifle and cartridge and steel factories if it joins the German league within 2 weeks. Of course all new members will have to pay no tariffs to sell their produce and pruducts in all member states.