lordroel
Administrator
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Post by lordroel on Jan 2, 2019 9:57:32 GMT
@lordroel - will you, or have you created a finished works section on this board, and James, could you please post a story only version. Again, thanks for posting this. Was thinking about this also, will work on creating a finished work only board. |
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arrowiv
Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Post by arrowiv on Jan 2, 2019 12:53:03 GMT
What about the fates of Putin and Bella following the war? Would they be tempted to switch sides after the war? It would be interesting to know what they did after 1987.
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jfoxx
Seaman
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Post by jfoxx on Jan 2, 2019 14:34:35 GMT
A wonderful ending to a wonderful story.
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dunois
Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Post by dunois on Jan 2, 2019 16:22:13 GMT
Romania - Probable on the road to become the North Korea of this world, nuclear weapon included - Almost assured that Ceausescu will try to inglobe Moldavia once the civil war start. - It will worry the rest of the continent and will make a lot of military noise against all his neighbourghs Indeed, I was thinking about this earlier too. Romania didn't go to war with the other Warsaw Pact allies so she has a chance to escape the worse of the fallout. However, a popular revolution could still occur just like OTL. Romania will still suffer from difficult economic conditions, unless somehow some of its debt is waved away or if it sort its economy out. Moldavia might end-up partitioned between Romania and Russia, Transnistria is guaranteed to flare-up just like OTL. Under this scenario Romania could get involved and abandon all pretences of communism in the process. Ceausescu could paint this as a victory at home and thereby gain some time. Russia could further down the line conceivably play the role that China plays with OTL North Korea. An hermit Romania could last depending on how succession of Ceaucescu goes. The country has a lot of natural ressources including oil. The situation of Eastern Europe is bound to be interesting TTL. Economic reforms will likely happen somewhat different to OTL, which means that eastern Europe could end up either better off or worse off than OTL. Credits and loans may also be less plentiful than OTL. Germany has some rebuilding to do. However France or even the United Kingdom may have some money to spare. A weaker Germany could trigger a better fate than OTL for the British economy, British industry might even do what it didn't do OTL and invest in Eastern Europe. |
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forcon
Lieutenant Commander
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Post by forcon on Jan 2, 2019 16:24:18 GMT
I've read the last few chapters a few times now; fantastic work.
I'm a little surprised that Russia ended up in perhaps a better situation, with Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan still part of the nation. However, I expect it will be a very long time before the West will trade with them and their will be even less economic support for Russia than there was in OTL's 1990s. China will be a mess for the foreseeable future, and the US is bogged down in South America. Europe will be picking up the slack, I expect.
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hussar01
Chief petty officer
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Post by hussar01 on Jan 2, 2019 18:52:27 GMT
Outstanding story once again. Sad to see it end, but all wars come to an end. Realy great effort and always impressive effort on story telling. Once again, thanks for the great story you have given us. Cannot wait for your next effort!
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Jan 2, 2019 21:38:51 GMT
Bravo! Good work as per usual! Thank you very much. Good ending!  Thank you kindly. Good epilogue James, though I would love to see and read even more about TTL's world. Russia is a a much stronger position than OTL as it managed to keep Belarus, Ukraine and Northern Kazakhstan. Ukraine is likely autonomous or even partitioned in some form. With possible emigration from there to Siberia, the country will become increasingly Russified after a few decades. Ukraine will become to Russia what Scotland is to the United Kingdom, a key constituent part with a different distinctive culture. Keeping Ukraine and Russia together will also help economically as the industrial supply chains from e.g the Donbass won't be broken by a border. Maybe depending on how things go economically, the demographic catastrophe of OTL might be lessened somewhat too. Still, this Russian Napoleon faces a huge task in rebuilding Russia. The country needs to look inwards for decades, strong institutions and the rule of the law need to be put in place. At least there's no Yeltsin and economic reforms are likely to be delivered very differently, especially as the United States won't be involved. I won't be surprised if eventually the EDA reaches out to the Russian Republic for trade opportunities and investment. Mitterand might even be the kind of guy to forge a "special relationship" of sorts with Russia if he feels France can gain something out of it. Thank you.Oh, there is so much more I could have written to be fair. Yep, the Russian Republic is strong and has offloaded the weaker bits, the troublesome bits too, of its empire. This will be a militaristic country with a focus first on internal matter - soldiers getting their revenge on former masters, but it will be expanisionist in the end as much countries often are. In the future, France might have an enemy there. Thank you James. Brilliant work. As a Cold War kid born just before your timeline started, this really hit home. Thank you for reading. Its my favourite time period to write about. A truly amazing ending! It really looks like the two superpowers took quite a beating, not just physically, but also mentally. Thank you very much. That they did indeed. The outward rage of the US shows that. It is the same with the USSR where military officers, fed up of it all, act as they do. just my two cents Russia: - Whatever successor state born from the civil war will probably get the OTL border of the Russian Federation plus Byelorussia and whatever can get of Ukraine (even if i bet they will try to get all the place). - Alexander Lebed can be a strong candidate for the military figure, sure it will be young at the time but between war loss and political elimination he can get the rank. - The Russian goverment can try to sell Kalinigrad to Germany to get some needed cash (attempted OTL) - Lviv can be given to Poland in exchange of support in keeping the rest of Ukraine (even that attempted in OTL) - Once things are back in order we will see Moscow trying to get back what was once her with every mean possible...basically what we have now. East Germany: - reunification is unavoidable, war or not war people want to get back to be a single nation and frankly East Germany is no more viable as a independent nation. - Neighbourgh nations will want some assurance that the actual border will remain intact Finland - once the soviet civil war start will immediately go the EDA/EEC to obtain membership, high probability to obtain it as soon as possible Romania - Probable on the road to become the North Korea of this world, nuclear weapon included - Almost assured that Ceausescu will try to inglobe Moldavia once the civil war start. - It will worry the rest of the continent and will make a lot of military noise against all his neighbourghs Poland and the rest of the former european communist nation - not official/full member of the EDA/EEC, stil strong economic tie and a relationships akin to OTL EU/Norway. - Military not Europeans troops there for political reason, still a lot of military and intelligence collaboration, lot of military aid and common training; strongly implied that there will be a military action if the Russian invade but not officially stated EDA/EEC - On her way to become OTL EU with added a military branch and protocol - Spain and Greece more probable candidate, Finland very possible during the civil war and maybe Bulgaria (even if for some very ironic developement, Sofia become a member by become part of the Jugoslavian Federation). - She will be never a superpower like the USA and URSS, still she will be a strong regional power with a long reach and in general not someone that can be easily pushed - Long term relations with the USA probably cold due to the continued war in the rest of the continent and previous war and pre-war problem. - big political fight at european level between hawk and dove, with the second vindicated by the fall of the URSS. India - The new big kid on the block in term of regional power - Probably occupied in pacify Sry Lanka and stare down Pakistan; Indian eyes now fixed to Tibet. Albania - chaos like OTL, probably eat by Jugoslavia or under the italian sphere of influence (OTL Operation Alba). ME - chaos and more chaos...but at least they can sell oil to the rest of the world. - Turkey may try something in the caucaus during the civil war (alliance with Azebarjan?) and to patch things up with Europe aka her biggest commercial patner; jokey with Damascus and Bagdad over being the regional leader General developement - creation of various regional military/economic alliance to protect themselfs and in response towards american intervention and the general chaos (ex: Mercosur, Andean community, ECOWAS,ECCAS, SADW, etc. etc.) Russia does have Belarus, all of the Ukraine, most of Kazakh and bits elsewhere. I did think of Lebed but he would have been a lt.-colonel during the war, maybe a full colonel by the end of it. Let's say he gets a generalship postwar... even then... I cannot seeing it being him.I would have used him if I thought it reasonable but it just didn't work in my mind. My thinking on Kalingrad is no for Germany - it goes independent - and Poland wouldn't get any of the Ukraine if it all stays with this Russian Republic - Russians, White Russians and Little Russians - all together. German unification: possibly only later though, after leaving East Germany occupied and under special administration for a while. Finland in the EDA, yes. Romania as Europe's NK, maybe. Eastern Europe will want to be tied to the EDA, yes. Spain, maybe, Portugal and Greece in the end will all probably end up in a European project. Europe's future is in some ways bright yet there will always be that eastern danger. India sounds agreeable. The Middle East could go any way and will still be a mess no matter what. The Israeli-Arab understanding late in the war will fall apart and the fate of Iran where it was abandoned when in uprising will be a big matter of concern. Great ending James G, thanks for posting this timeline on Alternate Timelines. Thank you. My gratitude is to you for having this forum available. When this first started on AH.com it had the look and feel of Red Dawn, and I expected a similar "wel the war is over, that's that" ending. Instead we've had a far, far superior story in detail an order of magnitude deeper and more involved than I ever hoped for. This has been epic in every sense of the word, my hat sir, is off to you. @lordroel - will you, or have you created a finished works section on this board, and James, could you please post a story only version. Again, thanks for posting this. Thank you. I don't like short endings. I try to write stories I would like to read and those deal with things at the end. I also wanted a non-happy ending where things were complicated rather than everything being fine. Your kind words are appreciated. There is a story-only version where I got through most of the pre-war stuff posted: there is now a sub-forum up and it is there. I will add to it, hopefully finishing by the end of the weekend |
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Jan 2, 2019 21:39:04 GMT
What about the fates of Putin and Bella following the war? Would they be tempted to switch sides after the war? It would be interesting to know what they did after 1987. Erm... Putin. Returned home at some point, maybe in '86 during the last releases of POWs: KGB people, senior officers. Not welcomed back but ended up somewhere non-important. Either escaped from the USSR as it fell and the military went after the Party and the KGB or killed. Let us say he left alive but with only the clothes on his back. Bella. Released from US custody only long after Freedom's Sword took down Castro. Went home and wouldn't have liked how things are where the Republic of Cuba is led by Miami Cubans returning home. While he wouldn't have loved Castro, I think that the post-war Cuba would be horrible for him. People such as Bella wouldn't be killed or anything, just have no role in the new Cuba. Let's say he stayed and retired on a farm but with nothing to show for anything. A wonderful ending to a wonderful story. Thank you very much. Indeed, I was thinking about this earlier too. Romania didn't go to war with the other Warsaw Pact allies so she has a chance to escape the worse of the fallout. However, a popular revolution could still occur just like OTL. Romania will still suffer from difficult economic conditions, unless somehow some of its debt is waved away or if it sort its economy out. Moldavia might end-up partitioned between Romania and Russia, Transnistria is guaranteed to flare-up just like OTL. Under this scenario Romania could get involved and abandon all pretences of communism in the process. Ceausescu could paint this as a victory at home and thereby gain some time. Russia could further down the line conceivably play the role that China plays with OTL North Korea. An hermit Romania could last depending on how succession of Ceaucescu goes. The country has a lot of natural ressources including oil. The situation of Eastern Europe is bound to be interesting TTL. Economic reforms will likely happen somewhat different to OTL, which means that eastern Europe could end up either better off or worse off than OTL. Credits and loans may also be less plentiful than OTL. Germany has some rebuilding to do. However France or even the United Kingdom may have some money to spare. A weaker Germany could trigger a better fate than OTL for the British economy, British industry might even do what it didn't do OTL and invest in Eastern Europe. I like the idea of a Romania being a NK-lite for a while, doing what it does to survive in the post-WP collapse chaos. I then reckon it opens ties with Western Europe, things go bad, and the son of the great leader succeeds. Instead of a long-term NK, maybe a Belarussian style nation. I see Eastern Europe ties to the EDA but not so much as they did fight each other. New governments there might not be so democratic. In time that might change. I barely mentioned the UK in my epilogue. I'm not sure as to Britain's long-term future. I've read the last few chapters a few times now; fantastic work. I'm a little surprised that Russia ended up in perhaps a better situation, with Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan still part of the nation. However, I expect it will be a very long time before the West will trade with them and their will be even less economic support for Russia than there was in OTL's 1990s. China will be a mess for the foreseeable future, and the US is bogged down in South America. Europe will be picking up the slack, I expect. Thank you. I didn't want to smash the country apart because that has been done in other stories. I wanted them to stay reasonably powerful. Russia will have few friendly ties with the West, yes. Outstanding story once again. Sad to see it end, but all wars come to an end. Realy great effort and always impressive effort on story telling. Once again, thanks for the great story you have given us. Cannot wait for your next effort! Thank you kindly. I try! These are stories which I like to read myself so I try to write them. New story coming soon, something more modern. |
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dunois
Petty Officer 2nd Class
Posts: 42
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Post by dunois on Jan 2, 2019 22:26:20 GMT
Just some further thinking on the future of TTL world from me.
What is obvious with the benefit of hindsight from OTL 2019, is that TTL is a strategic victory for the nations of "The Western World" in general, at least for 30 to 40 years. Why? Well amongst other things:
- China won't be there to become the workshop of the world after all it went through. Is there even a central government in place or is the country just a giant mess? Hong Kong might become independent post 1997 or stay linked with the UK long-term which would be a great outcome for both parties.
- China will in effect be a third-world country for at least 30 extra years TTL.
- South America will be more unstable than OTL and will receive less investments from the US. No NAFTA and likely no MERCOSUR either as US backed regimes stay in power for longer.
- Africa will receive even less help than OTL as help from the US is spent internally and Europe has bigger fishes to fry. The apartheid may last somewhat longer in South Africa, especially if the trop of "South Africa invites Eastern European immigrants" is realised which I think is unlikely.
- The Middle-East is even more of a mess than OTL.
Other countries might take-up the role that China played OTL. It could be India (unlikely though due to politics), Indonesia/South Asia or even West Africa if tied with the EDA/EEC on a mutually-beneficial basis.
China might reunite eventually and if it does, the country will be anti-everything and one of the most nationalistic nations on Earth. Why?
There has been another war with the Russians, one that costed the lives of tens of millions of Chineses, more "unfair treaties" as the nation was dismantled with Xinjiang, Tibet etc heaved off. The relationship between China and Russia will be equivalent to the one between the US and Mexico.
The Americans did precisely nothing to support or help China, the alliance was a sham, China was betrayed.
The Japanese and the Koreans will rearm and they are traditional ennemies.
The Vietnamese likely hate the Chinese even more after the nuking of Hanoi. Conflicts at the border are a given.
Eventually the Russians will have no other choice but to opt for a rapprochement of sorts with the West/Europe. Relations might be frosty but trade needs to flow. Why?
- Russian energy investments from the 1970s onwards followed a strategy of selling oil & gas to the west. Internal consumption was also on the cards though, with gargantuan plans to ship coal from Siberia to Western Russia by rail or via very high voltage lines. If Russia can't sell oil to others, the country will have isssues in gaining hard currency.
- Unlike OTL, China won't be there as a market for Siberian oil and gas. A lot of pipelines are currently under construction to just do this OTL. It won't happen TTL. Instead China will seek to control these ressources by force a few decades thence.
- The fact that no EDA forces will be based in Eastern Europe will lessen the feelings of encirclement that arose OTL.
- Just like OTL, Europe will need oil and gas. Fracking may or may not happen OTL as circumstances are different.
The relationship will be similar to OTL in some ways. Frosty, with pettiness on both hands and likely with heavy duties levelled on Russian oil/gas as reparations.
On another note, thanks for providing me with a daily "to do" in my evenings last year. I might miss looking at your TL on the train home after my Toastmasters meetings :-)
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Post by davehowery on Jan 3, 2019 4:29:04 GMT
Kind of a messy ending for the USA and chunks of the world... but in a world where nukes were used and massive armies clashed on both sides of the world, it's not surprising. Great story, James, I've enjoyed reading this over the many months. Looking forward to your next work...
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
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Post by James G on Jan 3, 2019 18:07:10 GMT
Just some further thinking on the future of TTL world from me. What is obvious with the benefit of hindsight from OTL 2019, is that TTL is a strategic victory for the nations of "The Western World" in general, at least for 30 to 40 years. Why? Well amongst other things: - China won't be there to become the workshop of the world after all it went through. Is there even a central government in place or is the country just a giant mess? Hong Kong might become independent post 1997 or stay linked with the UK long-term which would be a great outcome for both parties. - China will in effect be a third-world country for at least 30 extra years TTL. - South America will be more unstable than OTL and will receive less investments from the US. No NAFTA and likely no MERCOSUR either as US backed regimes stay in power for longer. - Africa will receive even less help than OTL as help from the US is spent internally and Europe has bigger fishes to fry. The apartheid may last somewhat longer in South Africa, especially if the trop of "South Africa invites Eastern European immigrants" is realised which I think is unlikely. - The Middle-East is even more of a mess than OTL. Other countries might take-up the role that China played OTL. It could be India (unlikely though due to politics), Indonesia/South Asia or even West Africa if tied with the EDA/EEC on a mutually-beneficial basis. China might reunite eventually and if it does, the country will be anti-everything and one of the most nationalistic nations on Earth. Why? There has been another war with the Russians, one that costed the lives of tens of millions of Chineses, more "unfair treaties" as the nation was dismantled with Xinjiang, Tibet etc heaved off. The relationship between China and Russia will be equivalent to the one between the US and Mexico. The Americans did precisely nothing to support or help China, the alliance was a sham, China was betrayed. The Japanese and the Koreans will rearm and they are traditional ennemies. The Vietnamese likely hate the Chinese even more after the nuking of Hanoi. Conflicts at the border are a given. Eventually the Russians will have no other choice but to opt for a rapprochement of sorts with the West/Europe. Relations might be frosty but trade needs to flow. Why? - Russian energy investments from the 1970s onwards followed a strategy of selling oil & gas to the west. Internal consumption was also on the cards though, with gargantuan plans to ship coal from Siberia to Western Russia by rail or via very high voltage lines. If Russia can't sell oil to others, the country will have isssues in gaining hard currency. - Unlike OTL, China won't be there as a market for Siberian oil and gas. A lot of pipelines are currently under construction to just do this OTL. It won't happen TTL. Instead China will seek to control these ressources by force a few decades thence. - The fact that no EDA forces will be based in Eastern Europe will lessen the feelings of encirclement that arose OTL. - Just like OTL, Europe will need oil and gas. Fracking may or may not happen OTL as circumstances are different. The relationship will be similar to OTL in some ways. Frosty, with pettiness on both hands and likely with heavy duties levelled on Russian oil/gas as reparations. On another note, thanks for providing me with a daily "to do" in my evenings last year. I might miss looking at your TL on the train home after my Toastmasters meetings :-) I strongly agree with that general world summary. So much will have changed and the West will be thinking of itself for a long time afterwards rather than elsewhere. China too is well summed up there too. Its relationship with the world will be very different and the internal issues with take a couple of generations to overcome. The Soviet energy issue was one of many reasons behind the war and something going to be followed once it was over. There will always be a market in Europe for their oil and gas, especially as what the defunct USSR, not the Russian Republic, did in wartime wasn't 'that' bad when it came to much of Europe. It will take time, be difficult and be fraught with controversy, but it is very likely indeed. A new war story starting soon, hopefully something else to keep your interest! Kind of a messy ending for the USA and chunks of the world... but in a world where nukes were used and massive armies clashed on both sides of the world, it's not surprising. Great story, James, I've enjoyed reading this over the many months. Looking forward to your next work... Thank you. Yep, I wanted things to be difficult and not a case of everything going easy in the end. New story coming very soon. |
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Brky2020
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 406
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Post by Brky2020 on Jan 6, 2019 2:15:52 GMT
Bravo, James! Good work!
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Post by lukedalton on Jan 9, 2019 0:23:31 GMT
An immense thanks for your great work and in wrote this long story and all the talent and effort you put in it; while i have already said my criticism it was a very intriguing and enjoyable voyage.
As a meager partecipant of the original megathread in the other site, well i can say that, at least personally, i prefer your finale (and general attitude of the story) that not devolve in a...ehm let's say political revenge fantasy
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Jan 20, 2019 13:04:24 GMT
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lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,973
Likes: 49,378
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Post by lordroel on Mar 2, 2019 18:45:34 GMT
So i am working on a Facebook/Twitter post for this great timeline if James G aproves of it and i have so far created this one, it simple but looks nice. Image I
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