France, Cold War and NUKE 'EM ALL

[James G]

Several times over many years, I've been assured that the national policy of France in the Cold War was that if the Big Bad Soviets invaded West Germany and crossed the River Rhine, France would start sending nukes flying. Tactical strikes first then soon enough they'd blast Moscow and Leningrad and every Soviet village eventually.
Usually, the posters on sites who express this view will also tell you that France wasn't / isn't part of NATO either: which wasn't / isn't true either.
My answer to this is always 'yeah, right' but I've been told time and time again that it was French national policy and set in stone.


So... let's imagine this. Summer 1986 and a Soviet mixed arms tank/MR company gets over the Rhine into the West German part of the Rhineland. Say a dozen tanks, twenty APCS and a few hundred men. NATO hasn't lost, Soviet tanks have just got a bridgehead. The French policy is inflexible though.
France fires off a tactical missile and eliminates them - and many unlucky nearby West German civilians - quickly. A Soviet counter-strike follows. Then a counter-counter-strike. Then a counter-counter-counter-strike. We go from tactical warheads to strategic hits. Everyone dies.

Really?
France had the policy but I doubt, strongly do not believe, that it would be done. The idea of nuclear warning shots in a crowded environment like the Rhineland, like Central Europe either, doesn't wash with me. There were more knowledgeable people in the French government / military than me. They knew that outcome of that. So did the politicians who would have had to order their death, the death of their families and every French national too by following this inflexible policy.
It may have been a policy but... really?

I have been told time and time again that it would have happened. Can anyone else really see France committing national suicide like this? No conventional counterattack, no plugging the gap with reserves just straight to the nukes. Better dead than red!
Agree, disagree?

[lordroel]

Feb 21, 2018 19:21:59 GMT James G said:

Several times over many years, I've been assured that the national policy of France in the Cold War was that if the Big Bad Soviets invaded West Germany and crossed the River Rhine, France would start sending nukes flying. Tactical strikes first then soon enough they'd blast Moscow and Leningrad and every Soviet village eventually.
Usually, the posters on sites who express this view will also tell you that France wasn't / isn't part of NATO either: which wasn't / isn't true either.
My answer to this is always 'yeah, right' but I've been told time and time again that it was French national policy and set in stone.


So... let's imagine this. Summer 1986 and a Soviet mixed arms tank/MR company gets over the Rhine into the West German part of the Rhineland. Say a dozen tanks, twenty APCS and a few hundred men. NATO hasn't lost, Soviet tanks have just got a bridgehead. The French policy is inflexible though.
France fires off a tactical missile and eliminates them - and many unlucky nearby West German civilians - quickly. A Soviet counter-strike follows. Then a counter-counter-strike. Then a counter-counter-counter-strike. We go from tactical warheads to strategic hits. Everyone dies.

Really?
France had the policy but I doubt, strongly do not believe, that it would be done. The idea of nuclear warning shots in a crowded environment like the Rhineland, like Central Europe either, doesn't wash with me. There were more knowledgeable people in the French government / military than me. They knew that outcome of that. So did the politicians who would have had to order their death, the death of their families and every French national too by following this inflexible policy.
It may have been a policy but... really?

I have been told time and time again that it would have happened. Can anyone else really see France committing national suicide like this? No conventional counterattack, no plugging the gap with reserves just straight to the nukes. Better dead than red!
Agree, disagree?

Have you ever read this: Russia's Cold War Plan to Crush France (In 7 Days)

[James G]

Feb 21, 2018 19:28:13 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 21, 2018 19:21:59 GMT James G said:

Several times over many years, I've been assured that the national policy of France in the Cold War was that if the Big Bad Soviets invaded West Germany and crossed the River Rhine, France would start sending nukes flying. Tactical strikes first then soon enough they'd blast Moscow and Leningrad and every Soviet village eventually.
Usually, the posters on sites who express this view will also tell you that France wasn't / isn't part of NATO either: which wasn't / isn't true either.
My answer to this is always 'yeah, right' but I've been told time and time again that it was French national policy and set in stone.


So... let's imagine this. Summer 1986 and a Soviet mixed arms tank/MR company gets over the Rhine into the West German part of the Rhineland. Say a dozen tanks, twenty APCS and a few hundred men. NATO hasn't lost, Soviet tanks have just got a bridgehead. The French policy is inflexible though.
France fires off a tactical missile and eliminates them - and many unlucky nearby West German civilians - quickly. A Soviet counter-strike follows. Then a counter-counter-strike. Then a counter-counter-counter-strike. We go from tactical warheads to strategic hits. Everyone dies.

Really?
France had the policy but I doubt, strongly do not believe, that it would be done. The idea of nuclear warning shots in a crowded environment like the Rhineland, like Central Europe either, doesn't wash with me. There were more knowledgeable people in the French government / military than me. They knew that outcome of that. So did the politicians who would have had to order their death, the death of their families and every French national too by following this inflexible policy.
It may have been a policy but... really?

I have been told time and time again that it would have happened. Can anyone else really see France committing national suicide like this? No conventional counterattack, no plugging the gap with reserves just straight to the nukes. Better dead than red!
Agree, disagree?

Have you ever read this: Russia's Cold War Plan to Crush France (In 7 Days)

I've seen something like that before over the releases of Czechoslovak war plans from the mid-60s. The whole things was rather optimistic!
I'll give it a proper read later.

[lordroel]

Feb 21, 2018 19:33:48 GMT James G said:

Feb 21, 2018 19:28:13 GMT lordroel said:

Have you ever read this: Russia's Cold War Plan to Crush France (In 7 Days)

I've seen something like that before over the releases of Czechoslovak war plans from the mid-60s. The whole things was rather optimistic!
I'll give it a proper read later.

Would that be called the “The Plan of Actions of the Czechoslovak People’s Army for War Period“, dated 1964, have heard from it, also from its Polish counterpart of invading the Netherlands and Denmark.

[James G]

I've seen these before too.
Brilliant map: I love it, Admiral.
We've never seen the Soviet plans though. Some generals spoke in Stockholm IIRC, but anything on paper disappeared never to be seen.

[stevep]

Feb 21, 2018 19:21:59 GMT James G said:

Several times over many years, I've been assured that the national policy of France in the Cold War was that if the Big Bad Soviets invaded West Germany and crossed the River Rhine, France would start sending nukes flying. Tactical strikes first then soon enough they'd blast Moscow and Leningrad and every Soviet village eventually.
Usually, the posters on sites who express this view will also tell you that France wasn't / isn't part of NATO either: which wasn't / isn't true either.
My answer to this is always 'yeah, right' but I've been told time and time again that it was French national policy and set in stone.


So... let's imagine this. Summer 1986 and a Soviet mixed arms tank/MR company gets over the Rhine into the West German part of the Rhineland. Say a dozen tanks, twenty APCS and a few hundred men. NATO hasn't lost, Soviet tanks have just got a bridgehead. The French policy is inflexible though.
France fires off a tactical missile and eliminates them - and many unlucky nearby West German civilians - quickly. A Soviet counter-strike follows. Then a counter-counter-strike. Then a counter-counter-counter-strike. We go from tactical warheads to strategic hits. Everyone dies.

Really?
France had the policy but I doubt, strongly do not believe, that it would be done. The idea of nuclear warning shots in a crowded environment like the Rhineland, like Central Europe either, doesn't wash with me. There were more knowledgeable people in the French government / military than me. They knew that outcome of that. So did the politicians who would have had to order their death, the death of their families and every French national too by following this inflexible policy.
It may have been a policy but... really?

I have been told time and time again that it would have happened. Can anyone else really see France committing national suicide like this? No conventional counterattack, no plugging the gap with reserves just straight to the nukes. Better dead than red!
Agree, disagree?

  I think a lot would depend on the exact details.  If there was still hope of winning [or at least not losing] by conventional means and the USSR wasn't heavily attacking France itself - say with chemical weapons - then I suspect that they would be reluctant to initiate nuclear use.  However if they could see the NATO defence collapsing and hadn't received assurances that the Red Army would stop short of the French border then I could see some sort of warning shot being likely.  Most likely a tactical strike against a Russian military concentration but possibly further back.

  The French don't have a large number of nukes compared to the US or Soviets but if things were to escalate to an all out exchange between them and the Soviets it would hurt the latter a lot.  Depending on French plans, the viability of the ABM system around Moscow and sheer look whether Moscow was hit or not, although I think it would see a fair bit of damage and other Russian/Soviet centres, both population/industrial and military are likely to be hit. 

  Its likely of course, once nukes start flying, especially in more than token numbers, everybody will get drawn in, in which case much of the northern hemisphere will be smashed.  However how easily or not things would escalate, fortunately we never found out.

[lordroel]

Feb 21, 2018 21:18:15 GMT James G said:

I've seen these before too.
Brilliant map: I love it, Admiral.
We've never seen the Soviet plans though. Some generals spoke in Stockholm IIRC, but anything on paper disappeared never to be seen.

Well that is because Soviet plans to invade West Europe where turned into Russian plans to invade Europe and thus they are actual and not relics of the past.

[stevep]

Feb 22, 2018 4:13:17 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 21, 2018 21:18:15 GMT James G said:

I've seen these before too.
Brilliant map: I love it, Admiral.
We've never seen the Soviet plans though. Some generals spoke in Stockholm IIRC, but anything on paper disappeared never to be seen.

Well that is because Soviet plans to invade West Europe where turned into Russian plans to invade Europe and thus they are actual and not relics of the past.

  I don't know about that.  No doubts they still have plans and traditional paranoia in Russia is very likely a significant factor.  However now plans to attack Europe have to start a lot further back.  They have to conquer the Ukraine and the Baltics for a start, then much of the former Warsaw Pact rather than starting half way through Germany.  While western forces have declined a lot more than the Russian ones have in terms of numbers that's still a big task and needs far different plans.

[lordroel]

Here is are some article fascinated to read:

Mapping the Soviet Invasion of Western Europe

WORLD WAR III PLANS REVEALED Here’s how the USSR planned to survive an all-out nuclear war with NATO and march its soldiers into the heart of a scorched Europe

Conquering France in a week

Warsaw Pact invasion of Europe map



After securing Bavaria, the Czechoslovak army was supposed to conquer Lyon in the south of France. After that — presumably having lost quite a few soldiers to radiation poisoning — Soviet reinforcements would have arrived from the Carpathian Military District to push all the way down the Pyrenees.

The idea was to accomplish this within a week, which seems ambitious.