Switzerland in WW2

[James G]

Another one of my hot-button historic topics.

Everyone will tell you in the current era that if in WW2 the Nazis invaded Switzerland, the Swiss would defeat them by withdrawing into the mountains and holding out. The Germans would give in and go home.
Everyone would tell you back then in 1940 that France couldn't be beaten. They would withdraw if pushed back, raise reserves, and win. The French lost.
People can be wrong.

It is an article of faith among so many that the Swiss would have won, even an unconventional victory. Against the Nazi war machine early in WW2 - really?
I think they would have been beaten like every other country invaded apart from the USSR.

Agree? Disagree?

[stevep]

Feb 21, 2018 21:45:16 GMT James G said:

Another one of my hot-button historic topics.

Everyone will tell you in the current era that if in WW2 the Nazis invaded Switzerland, the Swiss would defeat them by withdrawing into the mountains and holding out. The Germans would give in and go home.
Everyone would tell you back then in 1940 that France couldn't be beaten. They would withdraw if pushed back, raise reserves, and win. The French lost.
People can be wrong.

It is an article of faith among so many that the Swiss would have won, even an unconventional victory. Against the Nazi war machine early in WW2 - really?
I think they would have been beaten like every other country invaded apart from the USSR.

Agree? Disagree?

  Think Lordroel has prompted some discussion of this issue in the past.  The Swiss would have to give up much of their population centres but if they managed to withdraw into their prepared mountain stronghold's it would be very tough to winkle them out.  No doubt the Germans could do it, say some time after France falls and before the Soviets are attacked but how long it would take, how much material the Herr would lose and how many men would be the key questions.  Basically, even without the negatives, diplomatically and economically, of attacking Switzerland it would cost the Germans a lot and delay any attack on Russia to 42 I would suspect. 

[lordroel]

Feb 21, 2018 21:58:34 GMT stevep said:

Feb 21, 2018 21:45:16 GMT James G said:

Another one of my hot-button historic topics.

Everyone will tell you in the current era that if in WW2 the Nazis invaded Switzerland, the Swiss would defeat them by withdrawing into the mountains and holding out. The Germans would give in and go home.
Everyone would tell you back then in 1940 that France couldn't be beaten. They would withdraw if pushed back, raise reserves, and win. The French lost.
People can be wrong.

It is an article of faith among so many that the Swiss would have won, even an unconventional victory. Against the Nazi war machine early in WW2 - really?
I think they would have been beaten like every other country invaded apart from the USSR.

Agree? Disagree?

  Think Lordroel has prompted some discussion of this issue in the past.  The Swiss would have to give up much of their population centres but if they managed to withdraw into their prepared mountain stronghold's it would be very tough to winkle them out.  No doubt the Germans could do it, say some time after France falls and before the Soviets are attacked but how long it would take, how much material the Herr would lose and how many men would be the key questions.  Basically, even without the negatives, diplomatically and economically, of attacking Switzerland it would cost the Germans a lot and delay any attack on Russia to 42 I would suspect. 

You are right steve, it is this thread where i posted about a German invasion of Switzerland: What if: German invasion of Switzerland (Operation Tannenbaum)

[Tipsyfish]

The Swiss military strategy was changed from one of static defense at the borders, to a strategy of organized long-term attrition and withdrawal to strong, well-stockpiled positions high in the Alps that was known as the National Redoubt. This strategy was essentially one of deterrence. The idea was to cause huge losses to German forces and render the cost of invading too high for whatever benefits they could have gotten. During an invasion, the Swiss Army would cede control of the economic heartland and population centers, but retain control of crucial rail links and passes in the National Redoubt.

Switzerland was able to raise around 650,000 men into a field army out of a population of 4.2 million, with another 100,000 in stationary fortresses and manning fortress guns. These fortress guns hadn't been upgraded until the mid of the war, so were largely 1890 pieces or older. The Swiss airforce consisted of around 95 fighters and 125 observation craft that could be used as light fighters if need be. They only had three dedicated bombers of WW1 quality so they largely couldn't be used large scale. AA defenses were double layered. On the redoubt they would have around 55% AA capacity but ammunition for the guns would be in very short supply after about two weeks, unless they manage to bring all stores.

Invading was simply too costly for no gain. Germany would have gained pretty much nothing from invading and occupying Switzerland.

[James G]

I still think they would pull it off it they did invade. I understand the reasons not to invade, but my point was with regard to the supposed Swiss invincibility being a myth.
The Swiss would be surrounded from all sides with no help coming from outside. Every defended position in history has been overcome somehow in some manner after some time. The Swiss plan depended on everything going right and them holding firm. What if the Nazis did something unexpected? What if, when it came down to it, the Swiss government decided not to see their people killed and give in?
These things happen.

[lordroel]

Mar 10, 2018 19:44:21 GMT James G said:

I still think they would pull it off it they did invade. I understand the reasons not to invade, but my point was with regard to the supposed Swiss invincibility being a myth.
The Swiss would be surrounded from all sides with no help coming from outside. Every defended position in history has been overcome somehow in some manner after some time. The Swiss plan depended on everything going right and them holding firm. What if the Nazis did something unexpected? What if, when it came down to it, the Swiss government decided not to see their people killed and give in?
These things happen.

Think you should take some time and read this: Operation Tannenbaum: Hitler’s Invasion of Switzerland

[James G]

Mar 10, 2018 19:49:34 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 10, 2018 19:44:21 GMT James G said:

I still think they would pull it off it they did invade. I understand the reasons not to invade, but my point was with regard to the supposed Swiss invincibility being a myth.
The Swiss would be surrounded from all sides with no help coming from outside. Every defended position in history has been overcome somehow in some manner after some time. The Swiss plan depended on everything going right and them holding firm. What if the Nazis did something unexpected? What if, when it came down to it, the Swiss government decided not to see their people killed and give in?
These things happen.

Think you should take some time and read this: Operation Tannenbaum: Hitler’s Invasion of Switzerland

Will do right away!

[lordroel]

Mar 10, 2018 19:52:53 GMT James G said:

Mar 10, 2018 19:49:34 GMT lordroel said:

Think you should take some time and read this: Operation Tannenbaum: Hitler’s Invasion of Switzerland

Will do right away!

It is a interesting read about Switzerland in WW2.

[dayton3]

They love to quote the exchange between the German marshal and Swiss officer where the German asked the Swiss how many soldiers he could put into the field. The Swiss officer said "500,000".

the German marshal said "What if I cross your borders with 1,000,000 men?"

The Swiss officer replied "We'll each have to shoot twice"

Doesn't work that way in real life.