Miles From Our Home: 2018 Canada ISOTed to December 1939

[lordroel]

Mar 16, 2018 10:35:24 GMT stevep said:

Mar 16, 2018 10:09:57 GMT lordroel said:

It seems like it, wonder how Canada is going to fill the shoes of being the most advance power in the world.

  With difficulty I suspect as their also in a much nastier world at this point in time.  Plus with the difference in social values and the fact that I think even the British will have trouble recognising them as the new No. 1 while just about all the other big players in 1939 are used to thinking of them as that large thinly populated place just north of the US.  Especially since their population is still smaller than the major European powers it will take the rest of the world a little time to accept in their gut so to speak [as opposed to their brain] that if it wishes Canada can now punch very much above their former weight.

  Looking forward to seeing how things develop.

  One other point that occurred to me.  After Nazi Germany is dealt with, which could still take a year or so, and the question of Stalin and eastern Poland comes up the Canadians know how bad the Soviet regime is, what a threat it posed to the west after 45 and more explicitly what happened at Katyn.  Plus they are currently attacking Finland although I think the Canadians will be opposing any idea of the western powers giving support to the Finns.

But what about the 2018 Finish embassy in Canada, i do not think they are going to sit buy and watch as their country is attacked by the Soviet Union.

[stevep]

Mar 16, 2018 10:39:59 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 16, 2018 10:35:24 GMT stevep said:

  With difficulty I suspect as their also in a much nastier world at this point in time.  Plus with the difference in social values and the fact that I think even the British will have trouble recognising them as the new No. 1 while just about all the other big players in 1939 are used to thinking of them as that large thinly populated place just north of the US.  Especially since their population is still smaller than the major European powers it will take the rest of the world a little time to accept in their gut so to speak [as opposed to their brain] that if it wishes Canada can now punch very much above their former weight.

  Looking forward to seeing how things develop.

  One other point that occurred to me.  After Nazi Germany is dealt with, which could still take a year or so, and the question of Stalin and eastern Poland comes up the Canadians know how bad the Soviet regime is, what a threat it posed to the west after 45 and more explicitly what happened at Katyn.  Plus they are currently attacking Finland although I think the Canadians will be opposing any idea of the western powers giving support to the Finns.

But what about the 2018 Finish embassy in Canada, i do not think they are going to sit buy and watch as their country is attacked by the Soviet Union.

  They will be unhappy definitely but would they suggest that the allies, even with 2018 Canada, which would need time to tool up for war, take on both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, especially with Italy and Japan in the background.  Even if the Canadians could persuade the Americans to immediately join the conflict the latter, other than at sea, don't have significant military forces available either.  [I suspect that a suddenly ultra-powerful Canada will have a lot of Americans thinking they can get away with doing less to support the allies, if not start planning for 'defence' against Canada.

[lordroel]

Mar 16, 2018 10:56:52 GMT stevep said:

Mar 16, 2018 10:39:59 GMT lordroel said:

But what about the 2018 Finish embassy in Canada, i do not think they are going to sit buy and watch as their country is attacked by the Soviet Union.

  They will be unhappy definitely but would they suggest that the allies, even with 2018 Canada, which would need time to tool up for war, take on both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, especially with Italy and Japan in the background.  Even if the Canadians could persuade the Americans to immediately join the conflict the latter, other than at sea, don't have significant military forces available either.  [I suspect that a suddenly ultra-powerful Canada will have a lot of Americans thinking they can get away with doing less to support the allies, if not start planning for 'defence' against Canada.

In OTL 250 Finnish-Canadian citizens went to Finland to fight for Finland, it could happen here, but now they are armed with a lot better hardware and knowledge of how the fight is going to end, also i see the 2018 Finish embassy in Canada giving financial support to 1939 Finland and making the case in Canada that Finland can be a good ally if Canada supports Finland instead of Germany of 1939, but that is for redrobin65 to decide.  

[stevep]

Mar 16, 2018 11:02:01 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 16, 2018 10:56:52 GMT stevep said:

  They will be unhappy definitely but would they suggest that the allies, even with 2018 Canada, which would need time to tool up for war, take on both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, especially with Italy and Japan in the background.  Even if the Canadians could persuade the Americans to immediately join the conflict the latter, other than at sea, don't have significant military forces available either.  [I suspect that a suddenly ultra-powerful Canada will have a lot of Americans thinking they can get away with doing less to support the allies, if not start planning for 'defence' against Canada.

In OTL 250 Finnish-Canadian citizens went to Finland to fight for Finland, it could happen here, but now they are armed with a lot better hardware and knowledge of how the fight is going to end, also i see the 2018 Finish embassy in Canada giving financial support to 1939 Finland and making the case in Canada that Finland can be a good ally if Canada supports Finland instead of Germany of 1939, but that is for redrobin65 to decide.  

  I think there is likely to be an attempt to keep Finland out of the German camp and its the one Axis power that there is a genuine sympathy for in the west as it really had no choice given geography and Stalin's behaviour.

  Which got me thinking.  How much of OTL future will the Canadians tell their allies and how much will leak out to the Nazis and others?  Especially at 1st the Axis powers especially are unlikely to believe what they hear, especially as its going to be unpleasant for them but there could be a lot of butterflies.  Possibly even a coup against Hitler in a while, which could complicate matters quite a lot.  [Such a German is still going to be very militaristic and will want to keep onto at least some of Hitler's annexations but waging a war to crush them would be politically more difficult if they seem to have removed the Nazis from power].

[lordroel]

Mar 16, 2018 11:09:51 GMT stevep said:

Mar 16, 2018 11:02:01 GMT lordroel said:

In OTL 250 Finnish-Canadian citizens went to Finland to fight for Finland, it could happen here, but now they are armed with a lot better hardware and knowledge of how the fight is going to end, also i see the 2018 Finish embassy in Canada giving financial support to 1939 Finland and making the case in Canada that Finland can be a good ally if Canada supports Finland instead of Germany of 1939, but that is for redrobin65 to decide.  

  I think there is likely to be an attempt to keep Finland out of the German camp and its the one Axis power that there is a genuine sympathy for in the west as it really had no choice given geography and Stalin's behaviour.

  Which got me thinking.  How much of OTL future will the Canadians tell their allies and how much will leak out to the Nazis and others?  Especially at 1st the Axis powers especially are unlikely to believe what they hear, especially as its going to be unpleasant for them but there could be a lot of butterflies.  Possibly even a coup against Hitler in a while, which could complicate matters quite a lot.  [Such a German is still going to be very militaristic and will want to keep onto at least some of Hitler's annexations but waging a war to crush them would be politically more difficult if they seem to have removed the Nazis from power].

The problem is that any 1939 German, Japanese ore Soviet who lives in America can go into 2018 Canada, bring some gold with them and buy in bookstore ore go to the library and get every information they need,

[stevep]

Mar 16, 2018 11:33:45 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 16, 2018 11:09:51 GMT stevep said:

  I think there is likely to be an attempt to keep Finland out of the German camp and its the one Axis power that there is a genuine sympathy for in the west as it really had no choice given geography and Stalin's behaviour.

  Which got me thinking.  How much of OTL future will the Canadians tell their allies and how much will leak out to the Nazis and others?  Especially at 1st the Axis powers especially are unlikely to believe what they hear, especially as its going to be unpleasant for them but there could be a lot of butterflies.  Possibly even a coup against Hitler in a while, which could complicate matters quite a lot.  [Such a German is still going to be very militaristic and will want to keep onto at least some of Hitler's annexations but waging a war to crush them would be politically more difficult if they seem to have removed the Nazis from power].

The problem is that any 1939 German, Japanese ore Soviet who lives in America can go into 2018 Canada, bring some gold with them and buy in bookstore ore go to the library and get every information they need,

  That is definitely a threat.  Suspect that the Japanese especially might be rather conspicuous, but any down-timers will rather stand out and gold could look a bit odd, although possibly down-time US dollars might be possible but how useful it would be I don't know.  However once they realise what is happening something like this is pretty likely and it would be difficult to defend against totally. 

  Plus there might be more danger of information being passed to the US and possibly the UK then leaking to potential enemies via either supporters - especially for the Soviets and Nazis - or simply people from those countries picking up information from general gossip, newspaper articles and the like.  Probably going to be a lot of the Canadians "can do, X, Y, Z" or say "A, B, C will happen".

  The best defence might well be that the Nazi and Japanese leaders might be unwilling to accept the truth about their coming defeat and Soviet lower level operatives might be more willing but who dares tell Comrade Stalin about his mistakes?

[lordroel]

Mar 16, 2018 16:20:56 GMT stevep said:

Mar 16, 2018 11:33:45 GMT lordroel said:

The problem is that any 1939 German, Japanese ore Soviet who lives in America can go into 2018 Canada, bring some gold with them and buy in bookstore ore go to the library and get every information they need,

  That is definitely a threat.  Suspect that the Japanese especially might be rather conspicuous, but any down-timers will rather stand out and gold could look a bit odd, although possibly down-time US dollars might be possible but how useful it would be I don't know.  However once they realise what is happening something like this is pretty likely and it would be difficult to defend against totally. 

  Plus there might be more danger of information being passed to the US and possibly the UK then leaking to potential enemies via either supporters - especially for the Soviets and Nazis - or simply people from those countries picking up information from general gossip, newspaper articles and the like.  Probably going to be a lot of the Canadians "can do, X, Y, Z" or say "A, B, C will happen"

Also we do not have to forget, there are some countries in 2018 who have embassies in Canada who do not exist yet, how are they going to react.

[stevep]

Mar 16, 2018 16:22:31 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 16, 2018 16:20:56 GMT stevep said:

  That is definitely a threat.  Suspect that the Japanese especially might be rather conspicuous, but any down-timers will rather stand out and gold could look a bit odd, although possibly down-time US dollars might be possible but how useful it would be I don't know.  However once they realise what is happening something like this is pretty likely and it would be difficult to defend against totally. 

  Plus there might be more danger of information being passed to the US and possibly the UK then leaking to potential enemies via either supporters - especially for the Soviets and Nazis - or simply people from those countries picking up information from general gossip, newspaper articles and the like.  Probably going to be a lot of the Canadians "can do, X, Y, Z" or say "A, B, C will happen"

Also we do not have to forget, there are some countries in 2018 who have embassies in Canada who do not exist yet, how are they going to react.

  There are a lot since much of the world are currently western colonies.  Also others who will be in a precarious position.  What do the ambassadors for Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania tell their 1939 governments for instance?  Or those from Pakistan for instance, who may not come into existence in TTL?

[lordroel]

Mar 16, 2018 16:26:56 GMT stevep said:

Mar 16, 2018 16:22:31 GMT lordroel said:

Also we do not have to forget, there are some countries in 2018 who have embassies in Canada who do not exist yet, how are they going to react.

  There are a lot since much of the world are currently western colonies.  Also others who will be in a precarious position.  What do the ambassadors for Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania tell their 1939 governments for instance?  Or those from Pakistan for instance, who may not come into existence in TTL?

Prepare for Soviet domination, it to shame that Canada of 2018 cannot send troops to grantee their Independence for a reason that Canada (who still has not declare war on 1939 Germany) is in a semi-war with 1939 Germany and thus it would be hard for them to deploy troops to the 3 Baltic countries as they did in 2018 before the event.

[stevep]

Mar 16, 2018 16:29:36 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 16, 2018 16:26:56 GMT stevep said:

  There are a lot since much of the world are currently western colonies.  Also others who will be in a precarious position.  What do the ambassadors for Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania tell their 1939 governments for instance?  Or those from Pakistan for instance, who may not come into existence in TTL?

Prepare for Soviet domination, it to shame that Canada of 2018 cannot send troops to grantee their Independence for a reason that Canada (who still has not declare war on 1939 Germany) is in a semi-war with 1939 Germany and thus it would be hard for them to deploy troops to the 3 Baltic countries as they did in 2018 before the event.

  Canada declared war on Germany on 10-9-39 so I think you have that wrong?  It was delayed because there was consultation rather than it being brought in automatically by Britain's dow as in 1914 but it was formally at war by November 39.  Which was exactly why Canadian troops were crossing the Atlantic.

  I agree that's all those ambassadors can do but its going to be pretty depressing for them to tell their forerunners prepared for 5 years of hell, with three invasions and brutal occupations then another 45 years under Soviet rule. 

[lordroel]

Mar 16, 2018 16:42:51 GMT stevep said:

Mar 16, 2018 16:29:36 GMT lordroel said:

Prepare for Soviet domination, it to shame that Canada of 2018 cannot send troops to grantee their Independence for a reason that Canada (who still has not declare war on 1939 Germany) is in a semi-war with 1939 Germany and thus it would be hard for them to deploy troops to the 3 Baltic countries as they did in 2018 before the event.

  Canada declared war on Germany on 10-9-39 so I think you have that wrong?  It was delayed because there was consultation rather than it being brought in automatically by Britain's dow as in 1914 but it was formally at war by November 39.  Which was exactly why Canadian troops were crossing the Atlantic.

  I agree that's all those ambassadors can do but its going to be pretty depressing for them to tell their forerunners prepared for 5 years of hell, with three invasions and brutal occupations then another 45 years under Soviet rule. 

1939 Canada declared war but not 2018 Canada.

[stevep]

Mar 16, 2018 17:15:31 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 16, 2018 16:42:51 GMT stevep said:

  Canada declared war on Germany on 10-9-39 so I think you have that wrong?  It was delayed because there was consultation rather than it being brought in automatically by Britain's dow as in 1914 but it was formally at war by November 39.  Which was exactly why Canadian troops were crossing the Atlantic.

  I agree that's all those ambassadors can do but its going to be pretty depressing for them to tell their forerunners prepared for 5 years of hell, with three invasions and brutal occupations then another 45 years under Soviet rule. 

1939 Canada declared war but not 2018 Canada.

  Ah with you.  However given the circumstances, with the Nazis being the enemies I would suspect its only a [very] short period of time before that occurs.

[lordroel]

Mar 17, 2018 0:57:26 GMT stevep said:

Mar 16, 2018 17:15:31 GMT lordroel said:

1939 Canada declared war but not 2018 Canada.

  Ah with you.  However given the circumstances, with the Nazis being the enemies I would suspect its only a [very] short period of time before that occurs.

That depends on the 2018 parties in Canada, if they are pro war against Germany ore not.

[stevep]

Mar 17, 2018 2:49:52 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 17, 2018 0:57:26 GMT stevep said:

  Ah with you.  However given the circumstances, with the Nazis being the enemies I would suspect its only a [very] short period of time before that occurs.

That depends on the 2018 parties in Canada, if they are pro war against Germany ore not.

  Given the nature of the Nazi regime I suspect any politician than opposed fighting it would probably be committing political suicide.  Also those with any knowledge of history would know how much support they could give the democracies and how many deaths and much destruction they could avoid.  Even Germans and Italians - although Italy isn't in the war yet and may not enter it TTL - would almost certainly wish to see fascism removed.  Especially if it avoided the massive deaths and destruction that the Axis countries as well as others suffered during the war.

[lordroel]

Mar 17, 2018 11:56:58 GMT stevep said:

Mar 17, 2018 2:49:52 GMT lordroel said:

That depends on the 2018 parties in Canada, if they are pro war against Germany ore not.

  Given the nature of the Nazi regime I suspect any politician than opposed fighting it would probably be committing political suicide.  Also those with any knowledge of history would know how much support they could give the democracies and how many deaths and much destruction they could avoid.  Even Germans and Italians - although Italy isn't in the war yet and may not enter it TTL - would almost certainly wish to see fascism removed.  Especially if it avoided the massive deaths and destruction that the Axis countries as well as others suffered during the war.

Well i wonder, is Italy going to be smart enough to sit out World War II, especially if the 2018 Italian embassy in Canada makes it clear to 1939 Mussolini that it is the best thing to stay out of any thing the Germans do.