stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 17, 2018 12:36:53 GMT
Given the nature of the Nazi regime I suspect any politician than opposed fighting it would probably be committing political suicide. Also those with any knowledge of history would know how much support they could give the democracies and how many deaths and much destruction they could avoid. Even Germans and Italians - although Italy isn't in the war yet and may not enter it TTL - would almost certainly wish to see fascism removed. Especially if it avoided the massive deaths and destruction that the Axis countries as well as others suffered during the war. Well i wonder, is Italy going to be smart enough to sit out World War II, especially if the 2018 Italian embassy in Canada makes it clear to 1939 Mussolini that it is the best thing to stay out of any thing the Germans do. Which asks the question what would be the stance of the embassy in Canada? They won't want to see Italy involved in the war and probably defeated and occupied, probably with a lot of damage and death, albeit perhaps less than OTL but would they want Mussolini and the fascists to stay in power? I suspect they would encourage Italy to stay out of the war, plus if, as I expect, any Germany attack on the west fails, Mussolini will decide to play safe anyway. Just thought of one nasty point. OTL there was pressure from people in the British and French governments to help Finland in the Winter War and in the process occupy part of N Norway to make it practical - with the 'side' benefit of cutting iron ore exports to Germany. Once they know that the Germans are 'going' to occupy Norway I can see Churchill and possibly others pushing for a pre-emptive move but hopefully the Canadians can help avoid such a stupid move. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 17, 2018 12:40:54 GMT
Well i wonder, is Italy going to be smart enough to sit out World War II, especially if the 2018 Italian embassy in Canada makes it clear to 1939 Mussolini that it is the best thing to stay out of any thing the Germans do. Which asks the question what would be the stance of the embassy in Canada? They won't want to see Italy involved in the war and probably defeated and occupied, probably with a lot of damage and death, albeit perhaps less than OTL but would they want Mussolini and the fascists to stay in power? I suspect they would encourage Italy to stay out of the war, plus if, as I expect, any Germany attack on the west fails, Mussolini will decide to play safe anyway. Just thought of one nasty point. OTL there was pressure from people in the British and French governments to help Finland in the Winter War and in the process occupy part of N Norway to make it practical - with the 'side' benefit of cutting iron ore exports to Germany. Once they know that the Germans are 'going' to occupy Norway I can see Churchill and possibly others pushing for a pre-emptive move but hopefully the Canadians can help avoid such a stupid move. As mention on page 2 of this thread by me: In OTL 250 Finnish-Canadian citizens went to Finland to fight for Finland, it could happen here, but now they are armed with a lot better hardware and knowledge of how the fight is going to end, also i see the 2018 Finish embassy in Canada giving financial support to 1939 Finland and making the case in Canada that Finland can be a good ally if Canada supports Finland instead of Germany of 1939, but that is for redrobin65 to decide. I could see the 2018 Finish embassy who will be loyal to the 1939 Finish government for sure (Finland was a democracy after all) will do its best to assist 1939 Finland anyway they can, that includes convincing the 2018 Canadian government that 1939 Finland is a good ally in the making. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 17, 2018 20:04:02 GMT
Which asks the question what would be the stance of the embassy in Canada? They won't want to see Italy involved in the war and probably defeated and occupied, probably with a lot of damage and death, albeit perhaps less than OTL but would they want Mussolini and the fascists to stay in power? I suspect they would encourage Italy to stay out of the war, plus if, as I expect, any Germany attack on the west fails, Mussolini will decide to play safe anyway. Just thought of one nasty point. OTL there was pressure from people in the British and French governments to help Finland in the Winter War and in the process occupy part of N Norway to make it practical - with the 'side' benefit of cutting iron ore exports to Germany. Once they know that the Germans are 'going' to occupy Norway I can see Churchill and possibly others pushing for a pre-emptive move but hopefully the Canadians can help avoid such a stupid move. As mention on page 2 of this thread by me: In OTL 250 Finnish-Canadian citizens went to Finland to fight for Finland, it could happen here, but now they are armed with a lot better hardware and knowledge of how the fight is going to end, also i see the 2018 Finish embassy in Canada giving financial support to 1939 Finland and making the case in Canada that Finland can be a good ally if Canada supports Finland instead of Germany of 1939, but that is for redrobin65 to decide. I could see the 2018 Finish embassy who will be loyal to the 1939 Finish government for sure (Finland was a democracy after all) will do its best to assist 1939 Finland anyway they can, that includes convincing the 2018 Canadian government that 1939 Finland is a good ally in the making. Possibly but with what offers? They can't promise to get back any lands/people lost to the Soviets. Although if things work as I hope there will be no German attack on the Soviets as they will hopefully go down in 1940/41 with the assistance of 2018 Canada so Finland won't be allying with Nazi Germany. Possibly Canada can also offer a defence agreement with Finland but that would be a hell of a commitment. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 17, 2018 20:12:27 GMT
As mention on page 2 of this thread by me: In OTL 250 Finnish-Canadian citizens went to Finland to fight for Finland, it could happen here, but now they are armed with a lot better hardware and knowledge of how the fight is going to end, also i see the 2018 Finish embassy in Canada giving financial support to 1939 Finland and making the case in Canada that Finland can be a good ally if Canada supports Finland instead of Germany of 1939, but that is for redrobin65 to decide. I could see the 2018 Finish embassy who will be loyal to the 1939 Finish government for sure (Finland was a democracy after all) will do its best to assist 1939 Finland anyway they can, that includes convincing the 2018 Canadian government that 1939 Finland is a good ally in the making. Possibly but with what offers? They can't promise to get back any lands/people lost to the Soviets. Although if things work as I hope there will be no German attack on the Soviets as they will hopefully go down in 1940/41 with the assistance of 2018 Canada so Finland won't be allying with Nazi Germany. Possibly Canada can also offer a defence agreement with Finland but that would be a hell of a commitment. Well there are also other countries who want 2018 Canada to aid them, so 2018 Canada is going to get busy for a while. |
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Post by redrobin65 on Apr 22, 2018 0:33:47 GMT
Dec. 13, 1939, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
“You can excuse me for not believing this. Again, are you sure?”
“Positive,” said Minister of Public Affairs Ralph Goodale.
Most of the Cabinet was in a secure, heavily guarded meeting room. Notable absences were Chrystia Freeland (Minister of Foreign Affairs) and Francois-Phillipe Champagne, who were both in the United States attempting to introduce the ‘uptime’ Canada.
“Well, I believe it,” remarked Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. “The main question is; where on earth do we go from here?”
“We’ve recovered the remains of eleven airliners that crashed,” said Minister of Transport Marc Garneau. “The navigation systems onboard are beginning to work again, which is a huge boon for us. I recommend that we officially ground all civilian airliners, though it’s kind of meaningless since most are not moving because of their…navigational deficiencies.”
“We also have to consider energy,” said Minister of Natural Resources James Carr. “Currently we have quite a good amount, but we still need to find a source for importing. I’d suggest Venezuela, as right now they are the third largest oil producer in the world. The Saudis haven’t really developed theirs too much yet.”
“How are we doing in contacting the 1939 countries?” asked Minister of Democratic Institutions Karina Gould.
“Freeland and Champagne are meeting with Roosevelt right now,” answered Minister of Finance Bill Morneau. “Shugart and Boehm are going to the United Kingdom. They had a hard time believing us, but the Globemaster landing at Heathrow should convince them, along with all the documents sent with ‘em.”
“I’m not sure we should be showing them all our technology willy-nilly,” stated Minister of Infrastructure and Communities Amarjeet Sohi. “We have an immense lead technologically! Canada has an incredible opportunity to lead the world.”
“We weren’t planning on doing that,” said Trudeau. “Obviously we have to keep our lead, but we still have a responsibility to…to uplift others. Now, does anyone have any suggestions as to how we convince the public without causing panic?”
Dec. 13, London, United Kingdom
“I must say, the technology on the aircraft you arrived on is very impressive, Mr. Shugart,” Secretary of State for Air Sir Kingsley Wood. “We were all skeptical of your claims.”
Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Ian Shugart gave a strained smile. “We weren’t sure if you would believe us, but I’m glad you did. I assume that you read the packages we brought?”
Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain put down his copy uneasily. “I have, and it’s awful. Jesus…seventeen million in this…Holocaust?”
“Yes,” stated Peter Boehm, Personal Representative of the Prime Minister. “Add in all of the military and civilian deaths on both sides in all theatres and you have around seventy three million dead.”
Several members of the War Cabinet looked queasy. Finally, Minister for the Coordination of Defense Lord Ernle Chatfield spoke: “What does Canada plan to contribute militarily?”
“Canada will provide escorts for convoys as well as material and transport for natural resourses. We will also deploy ground troops to the United Kingdom and eventually France as well as combat, surveillance and anti-submarine aircraft. Detailed analysis of German combat strength and doctrine from our World War 2 along with other historical documents as well.”
Susan le Jeune d’Allegeershecque, British High Commissioner to Canada, cleared her throat. “There is also the matter of the approximately 603,000 British expatriates and tourists currently in Canada.”
Chamberlain was silent for a moment. “I think that we will come to a descision on what happens to them later. I think, ladies and gentlemen, that we shall find accomadations for you while we reflect on what you have brought us.”
Boehm looked bashful. “We don’t want to be an inconvenience; we were planning to sleep on the plane…”
“Nonsense!” First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill said. “You are guests of the British Government, from the future no less. Only the best for diplomats.”
Dec. 13, 1939, CFB Suffield, Alberta
“Again Major, I’m very sorry for the situation you and your men find yourselves in,” Lieutenant-Colonel Mike Onieu said.
CFB Suffield was home to BATUS (British Army Training Unit Suffield.) The British soldiers usually practiced during the summer due to the horrible winter weather. However, they had a reasonable amount of armoured vehicles at the facility during the winter months.
Major Mark Johnson grimaced. “Thank you sir. I’m just glad there weren’t more of us trapped here since it’s the winter. Not too many of us here.”
“Yes, that’s fortunate. Now Major, I understand that there are armoured vehicles kept here year round. Do you mind telling me how many, and what type?”
Johnson narrowed his eyes. “We have around twenty Challengers, eighty Warriors, ten AVRE, thirteen helicopters, three AS-90s, and four Starstreak SML. More that we have the manpower for, as most are flown in come summertime. We just maintain the vehicles here, sir.”
“Ah. Well, the Canadian Government may have a use for those vehicles…..”
Dec. 13, 1939, Washington D.C., United States of America
With a sigh, Franklin Delano Roosevelt shuffled through the papers that the ‘uptime’ Canadians had given him. They included information of future Presidents, the number of Americans in uptime Canada, the course America had taken, and a wealth of information on resources. There were parts that were very troubling. Millions murdered in Europe. Millions murdered in the Pacific. Pearl Harbour and the Pacific Campaign. The rise of the Soviet Union as a superpower. The threat of global thermonuclear annihilation…
Nonetheless, America had a chance to fix her mistakes, do things differently in many aspects. Transportation, infrastructure, race relations…this would require a herculean effort from many people.
There was also the matter of the approximately 975,000 uptime Americans either living, working, studying or on vacation in Canada at the time of ‘The Shift.’ It was expected that a reasonable amount would stay in Canada, which had similar laws in many cases to the 2018 United States. Still, some would want to come back, but where would they go? Much of the country would not be willing to radically shift their legal system in regards to many things that uptimers held dear. Maybe the Pacific Islands? The whole thing needed a lot of thought.
As to trade, the Canadians had apparently been large exporters of raw materials along with food in 2018 and they were eager to continue that, along with modern medicine. They mostly wanted energy and chemicals in return.
All over Canada
The country initially reacted to the news of the Shift in disbelief. Many though that it was one big joke. This school of thought ended with the public announcement and piles of evidence. The pictures and videos on television. The less developed American side of the border. The ‘holes’ in the internet. For many Canadians, this realization hit with surprise and wonder.
Foreign tourists, student, workers and anyone else who had most of their family outside of Canada reacted with grief and shock. Many simply wandered around in a catatonic state, unsure of what to do. The government did its best to accommodate all of them, but it was nigh impossible to do so. Many Canadians decided to open their homes to stranded people.
The Canadian Armed Forces were mobilizing. Across the country, leaves were cancelled and reservists called up. Many retired veterans returned to the Forces to fill out units and train new personnel, which there were many. Between December 13th and December 24th, almost 36,000* Canadians would volunteer for the Armed Forces.
Dec. 15, Ottawa, Ontario
General Jonathan Vance, Chief of Defence Staff (CDS), was sitting in a guarded meeting room in the National Defence Headquarters (NDHQ) building. With him were the representatives from many Canadian technology, industry, shipbuilding, aerospace and defence companies. Some of the companies were foreign, but had substantial facilities in Canada. By now, the meeting was drawing to a close.
“….and we think that with proper supplies, we can substantially increase LAV production by Ju – sorry, April,” the rep from General Dynamics Mission Systems Canada said. “If it’s possible, we’ll look for more facilities. We will need to build many more Mk. 82s, Mk. 83s and Mk. 84s as well, but we don’t have enough room in our main plant. As I said, we’ll need proper supplies for all of this.”
“We will try to build more parts for the Hornet,” remarked the Boeing Winnipeg rep, “This is plausible, and we will also increase Harpoon production. Again, we need a lot of supplies and cooperation between all of us for this to happen.”
“Thank you,” said Vance. “How goes the progress on the Harry DeWolf?”
The rep for Irving Shipbuilding cleared his throat. “We have all the main sections fitted together and were planning to launch in a month and a half. She was not supposed have any anti-ship or ASW capabilities as you know. However, the ship is almost done. We might adjust the Margaret Brooke to allow for those weapons, which will delay the whole thing. Thank God that Max Bernays isn’t much more than a keel right now.”
Vance nodded. “Ladies and Gentlemen, thanks for your input. I am aware that we need more combat aircraft. We can pull Hornets and maybe Freedom Fighters out of storage, but we need newer and more airframes to fight the Second World War again.”
The Bombardier rep frowned. “If you’re suggesting a brand new fighter like the Arrow…”
“I’m not suggesting the Arrow,” said Vance. “We need something versatile to fill up the air fleet.”
“Then what are you suggesting?” asked the Raytheon Canada rep.
In response, Vance simply pushed forward blueprints of familiar aircraft.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 22, 2018 7:55:02 GMT
We can pull Hornets and maybe Freedom Fighters out of storage, Do you have any numbers on how many are in storage. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 22, 2018 9:31:30 GMT
Basically if they start developing some circa 1950 a/c that would be very useful for the war effort as they would be more suitable for the European powers and you could probably also give plans to the allies for them to develop their own. Even a Mosquito would be a huge advantage over anything anybody in Europe has at the moment, as long as you don't run out of cabinet makers.  Ditto possibly digging up models of say later Merlin and other engine designs for things like the WWII Typhoon. Ditto a Centurion design for armour. Getting better radio communications and electronics would be a huge boost to the allies. A simplified IFF system coupled with a proxy fuse would be a great boost to operations especially in the air. More capable radar as well. Hopefully the Canadians will be able to stop the RAF's bomber clique from obsessing with strategic bombing of Germany. Hugely wasteful and destructive, especially of British manpower and resources until the last stages of the war. Of course rumours will leak wider afield and how much their received and believed [or probably not] in Berlin, Tokyo and Moscow, among others will be important. Good update and looking forward to seeing how things develop.  Also I wonder if Chamberlain is told about his cancer and how he's viewed by the future, as well as how he views his 1st Lord of the Admiralty now. The up-time non-Canadians are likely to have a huge impact on their 'home' countries, even if very few of them leave Canada because of the huge technological and social changes. On the other hand you could see a lot of down-timers seeking to move to Canada, especially with the attractions of living there and the probable large need for manpower for increased production that is likely. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 22, 2018 9:33:49 GMT
Also I wonder if Chamberlain is told about his cancer and how he's viewed by the future, as well as how he views his 1st Lord of the Admiralty now. I think he might end up in Canada for treatment. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 22, 2018 9:45:19 GMT
I like how you mentioned the grief and shock of many people. Other ISOTs have missed this.
There will be many people who are very upset and it won't be gotten over with quickly. The loss of such family members abroad, in the way which they have just disappeared so there was no chance to say goodbye and how they are just lost, will be quite traumatic.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 22, 2018 9:49:38 GMT
I like how you mentioned the grief and shock of many people. Other ISOTs have missed this. There will be many people who are very upset and it won't be gotten over with quickly. The loss of such family members abroad, in the way which they have just disappeared so there was no chance to say goodbye and how they are just lost, will be quite traumatic. I worry that a 2018 Canadian Neo-Nazi wannabe walks into the 1939 German Embassy in Washington D.C. with boxes of WW II related material that gives the Germans the information about what they are about to do and how they are going to lose big. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 22, 2018 10:05:56 GMT
I like how you mentioned the grief and shock of many people. Other ISOTs have missed this. There will be many people who are very upset and it won't be gotten over with quickly. The loss of such family members abroad, in the way which they have just disappeared so there was no chance to say goodbye and how they are just lost, will be quite traumatic. I worry that a 2018 Canadian Neo-Nazi wannabe walks into the 1939 German Embassy in Washington D.C. with boxes of WW II related material that gives the Germans the information about what they are about to do and how they are going to lose big. There is an outside chance of that although now much he would be believed, especially since he's telling the Nazis things they don't want to believe, which rarely goes down well with fanatical extremists. Tokyo might be a more likely option here but is still likely to be shooting messengers, or at least making them very unpopular. A greater fear, which I forgot to mention in my last post, is the Soviet intelligence networks in both Britain and the US, couple with the fact that, as your TL and recent news makes clear James, there are still a lot of idiots who think the Soviet system had serious merits!  Hopefully the Canadians will inform Britain especially about the Cambridge ring and others. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 22, 2018 10:22:23 GMT
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Post by redrobin65 on Apr 22, 2018 12:42:05 GMT
We can pull Hornets and maybe Freedom Fighters out of storage, Do you have any numbers on how many are in storage. About twenty of each. Some of the F-5s were just mothballed, same with a couple of Hornets. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 22, 2018 12:46:27 GMT
Do you have any numbers on how many are in storage. About twenty of each. Some of the F-5s were just mothballed, same with a couple of Hornets. Well they need them, i think for every modern fighter active two are on the ground being worked on ore other, but i think it will be at least some month ore even a year before the F-5s and Hornets who where mothballed to be active again. |
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Post by redrobin65 on Apr 22, 2018 12:47:59 GMT
I like how you mentioned the grief and shock of many people. Other ISOTs have missed this. There will be many people who are very upset and it won't be gotten over with quickly. The loss of such family members abroad, in the way which they have just disappeared so there was no chance to say goodbye and how they are just lost, will be quite traumatic. Yup. Many of the people stuck in Canada will not get over this easily. |
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Ditto possibly digging up models of say later Merlin and other engine designs for things like the WWII Typhoon. Ditto a Centurion design for armour.
Hopefully the Canadians will inform Britain especially about the Cambridge ring and others.