Miles From Our Home: 2018 Canada ISOTed to December 1939

[guardian54]

I registered on this site specifically to inform you that a 25mm Bushmaster will carve through a 1940 vintage Panzer III or IV like cheese. I'm amazed no one brought it up by page 18.

www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php/Ammunition_Data
60mm penetration at 2000 meters with M791 APDS from 1983. M919 APFSDS from 1994 gives 100mm penetration at 2100 meters.

Panzer IIIs in 1940 had max 30+30mm frontal armour, and that was for the latest variants (J).
Panzer IVs are still on Ausf D with 30mm hull and turret front, and 30+30mm superstructure front.

Two bolted-together layers are not as protective as a single layer vs AP, so... you wasted a LOT of TOWs when an autocannon could easily slay anything the Germans had.

Also, a TAPV has armour to resist 12.7mm rounds, if we go optimistically by .50 cal M903 SLAP i.e. the highest penetration round for the .50 Browning, then that's 35mm penetration at 1500m.

Yeah, uh, a Panzer III with a 5cm KwK 38 literally can only pen 34mm at 1500m with its PzGr 39 APCBC shell.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_cm_KwK_38

So if the Canadians are playing it smart and staying at range they're not going to be penetrated by anythign short of a direct artillery hit, while the LAV's 25mm Bushmaster can casually dismantle German Panzers one after another before they can even aim.

EDIT: Just saw pyeknu's poorly disguised Japanese war crimes denialism on Page 20. Yeah, good luck with that when the Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese, etc. communities are making it more than clear how the Japanese raped their countries (though only China and Korea in 1939-1940).
The East Asians are quite likely to be apathetic about who wins in China since the Nationalists had a reputation for being hopelessly corrupt, so the exodites are more likely to let the chips fall where they may and focus on the destruction of Imperial Japan.

There are going to be a lot of people campaigning for Hirohito to be put to death for authorizing gas and biological attacks in China. Imperial Japan still isn't destroyed yet, and East Asia hasn't forgotten that.

As a side note, you too had issues with AH.com admin, eh? Well good luck.

[lordroel]

Aug 20, 2019 13:23:21 GMT guardian54 said:

EDIT: Just saw pyeknu's poorly disguised Japanese war crimes denialism. Yeah, good luck with that when the Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese, etc. communities are making it more than clear how the Japanese raped their countries (though only China and Korea in 1939-1940).
The East Asians are quite likely to be apathetic about who wins in China since the Nationalists had a reputation for being hopelessly corrupt, so the exodites are more likely to let the chips fall where they may and focus on the destruction of Imperial Japan.
And yes, there are going to be a lot of people campaigning for Hirohito to be put to death for authorizing gas and biological attacks in China. Imperial Japan still isn't destroyed yet, and East Asia hasn't forgotten that.
As a side note, you too had issues with AH.com admin, eh? Well good luck.

Can you point me towards this post about disguised Japanese war crimes denialism, also what about issues with AH.com admin, as far as i am concern, things that are on other forums are not a issue here as long as a member on this forum follows this forum rules and conduct, what happens on a different forum, remains on a different forum.

[guardian54]

Aug 20, 2019 15:11:54 GMT lordroel said:

Aug 20, 2019 13:23:21 GMT guardian54 said:

EDIT: Just saw pyeknu's poorly disguised Japanese war crimes denialism. Yeah, good luck with that when the Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese, etc. communities are making it more than clear how the Japanese raped their countries (though only China and Korea in 1939-1940).
The East Asians are quite likely to be apathetic about who wins in China since the Nationalists had a reputation for being hopelessly corrupt, so the exodites are more likely to let the chips fall where they may and focus on the destruction of Imperial Japan.
And yes, there are going to be a lot of people campaigning for Hirohito to be put to death for authorizing gas and biological attacks in China. Imperial Japan still isn't destroyed yet, and East Asia hasn't forgotten that.
As a side note, you too had issues with AH.com admin, eh? Well good luck.

Can you point me towards this post about disguised Japanese war crimes denialism, also what about issues with AH.com admin, as far as i am concern, things that are on other forums are not a issue here as long as a member on this forum follows this forum rules and conduct, what happens on a different forum, remains on a different forum.

alternate-timelines.proboards.com/post/58966/thread

The amount of effort he goes to make Hirohito look like a good guy does not fly well with a Chinese-Canadian like me. This is the emperor who personally authorized every single use of poison gas in China, Unit 731, etc.

Even Wikipedia admits it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito#Accountability_for_Japanese_war_crimes

For example, Hirohito authorised the use of toxic gas 375 times during the Battle of Wuhan from August to October 1938.[4]

Historians such as Herbert Bix, Akira Fujiwara, Peter Wetzler, and Akira Yamada assert that the post-war view focusing on imperial conferences misses the importance of numerous "behind the chrysanthemum curtain" meetings where the real decisions were made between the Emperor, his chiefs of staff, and the cabinet. Historians such as Fujiwara[41] and Wetzler,[42] based on the primary sources and the monumental work of Shirō Hara, have produced evidence suggesting that the Emperor worked through intermediaries to exercise a great deal of control over the military and was neither bellicose nor a pacifist but an opportunist who governed in a pluralistic decision-making process. American historian Herbert P. Bix argues that Emperor Hirohito might have been the prime mover of most of the events of the two wars.

And that source linked in the Wikipedia article seems pretty reliable to me.

His denial that Hirohito had personal cupability for those war crimes is something I am obligated to call out.

It also violates plausibility too much for me to say nothing even if I was mainly furious over the depiction of Hirohito.
Basically the Asian-Canadian community except maybe the Japanese-Canadians would be baying for Hirohito to be hanged like a dog, and any Canadian government that sends an ambassador to Japan for this sort of pleasantries is committing political suicide.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Canadians

Just the biggest groups harmed by Imperial Japan (Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Philipino) add together to be more than 3 million people. So about 10% of the Canadian population is dead set against Imperial Japan. That's a kingmaker right there.

And the Canadian public would very rapidly be educated on just how many war crimes Hirohito authorized if they weren't already. So yet another nail in the plausibility coffin.

Since he's only denying the Chrysanthemum Throne's culpability, I did not report him as it wasn't quite "Japanese war crimes denial", just "Japanese Emperor war crimes denial".
Sorry, but I can't abide by even the latter, so I called him out in-thread.

[lordroel]

Aug 20, 2019 16:19:54 GMT guardian54 said:

Aug 20, 2019 15:11:54 GMT lordroel said:

Can you point me towards this post about disguised Japanese war crimes denialism, also what about issues with AH.com admin, as far as i am concern, things that are on other forums are not a issue here as long as a member on this forum follows this forum rules and conduct, what happens on a different forum, remains on a different forum.

alternate-timelines.proboards.com/post/58966/thread

The amount of effort he goes to make Hirohito look like a good guy does not fly well with a Chinese-Canadian like me. This is the emperor who personally authorized every single use of poison gas in China, Unit 731, etc.

Even Wikipedia admits it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito#Accountability_for_Japanese_war_crimes

For example, Hirohito authorised the use of toxic gas 375 times during the Battle of Wuhan from August to October 1938.[4]

Historians such as Herbert Bix, Akira Fujiwara, Peter Wetzler, and Akira Yamada assert that the post-war view focusing on imperial conferences misses the importance of numerous "behind the chrysanthemum curtain" meetings where the real decisions were made between the Emperor, his chiefs of staff, and the cabinet. Historians such as Fujiwara[41] and Wetzler,[42] based on the primary sources and the monumental work of Shirō Hara, have produced evidence suggesting that the Emperor worked through intermediaries to exercise a great deal of control over the military and was neither bellicose nor a pacifist but an opportunist who governed in a pluralistic decision-making process. American historian Herbert P. Bix argues that Emperor Hirohito might have been the prime mover of most of the events of the two wars.

And that source linked in the Wikipedia article seems pretty reliable to me.

His denial that Hirohito had personal cupability for those war crimes is something I am obligated to call out.

It also violates plausibility too much for me to say nothing even if I was mainly furious over the depiction of Hirohito.
Basically the Asian-Canadian community except maybe the Japanese-Canadians would be baying for Hirohito to be hanged like a dog, and any Canadian government that sends an ambassador to Japan for this sort of pleasantries is committing political suicide.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Canadians

Just the biggest groups harmed by Imperial Japan (Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Philipino) add together to be more than 3 million people. So about 10% of the Canadian population is dead set against Imperial Japan. That's a kingmaker right there.

And the Canadian public would very rapidly be educated on just how many war crimes Hirohito authorized if they weren't already. So yet another nail in the plausibility coffin.

Since he's only denying the Chrysanthemum Throne's culpability, I did not report him as it wasn't quite "Japanese war crimes denial", just "Japanese Emperor war crimes denial". Sorry, but I can't abide by even the latter.

Thanks for pointing it out to me, i did not notice it when previous posted, but i will make sure to keep a eye out if it happens again, if you want just report ore PM me if there is any post that you feel not happy with as is standerd on this forum.

Any "Japanese war crimes denial", like any "German war crimes denial" ore "Holocaust denial" is not allowed on this forum, we all know that they happen, not saying that they happen is a disgrace to all of the victims suffered by to crimes.

[guardian54]

Aug 20, 2019 16:28:58 GMT lordroel said:

Any "Japanese war crimes denial", like any "German war crimes denial" ore "Holocaust denial" is not allowed on this forum, we all know that they happen, not saying that they happen is a disgrace to all of the victims suffered by to crimes.

Problem is that sometimes there ARE scapegoatings.
For example, the Japanese general at Nanjing: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwane_Matsui#The_Nanjing_Massacre

On December 16 Matsui spent the day recovering from his malaria at the Tangshuizhen hot springs east of Nanjing, and then the next day he rode into Nanjing itself at the head of a large victory parade.[72] It is not clear to what extent Matsui was aware of the atrocities perpetrated in Nanjing. His former Chief of Staff in the SEA later testified that Matsui had been informed of "a few cases of plunder and outrage" shortly after entering the city,[73] and Matsui's own field diary also mentions being told that Japanese troops had committed acts of rape and looting.[74] Matsui commented in his field diary, "The truth is that some such acts are unavoidable."[75] When a representative from the Japanese Foreign Ministry came to investigate the matter, Matsui admitted that some crimes had occurred and he blamed his subordinate commanders for allowing too many soldiers into the city in violation of his orders.[76] After the war, Matsui's aide-de-camp Yoshiharu Sumi claimed that not long after the capture of Nanjing Matsui caught wind of a plan by some of his subordinates to massacre Chinese POWs and upon hearing of this he immediately put a stop to it.[77] However researchers have since discovered that Sumi's testimony contained a large number of inaccuracies.[78][79]

Matsui left Nanjing on December 22 and returned to Shanghai, though reports of scandalous incidents perpetrated by Japanese soldiers in Nanjing continued to filter in to his headquarters over the following month.[80] When Matsui returned to Nanjing on February 7, 1938, for a two-day tour he assembled his subordinates, including Prince Asaka and Heisuke Yanagawa, and harangued them for failing to prevent "a number of abominable incidents within the past 50 days".

We can't really expect a general who's sick and who was just being treated for malaria (and likely needs to return to treatment soon or is feeling very ill overall) to make a thorough inspection of the troops and the occupied city.

He then vacillated at the war crimes tribunals post-war before deciding to die to shield Prince Asaka (who would be in charge by dint of royal position once Matsui left Nanjing) from blame.

Also: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre#Matsui's_reaction_to_the_massacre

On December 18, 1937, as General Iwane Matsui began to comprehend the full extent of the rape, murder, and looting in the city, he grew increasingly dismayed. He reportedly told one of his civilian aides: "I now realize that we have unknowingly wrought a most grievous effect on this city. When I think of the feelings and sentiments of many of my Chinese friends who have fled from Nanjing and of the future of the two countries, I cannot but feel depressed. I am very lonely and can never get in a mood to rejoice about this victory ... I personally feel sorry for the tragedies to the people, but the Army must continue unless China repents. Now, in the winter, the season gives time to reflect. I offer my sympathy, with deep emotion, to a million innocent people."

On New Year's Day, over a toast he confided to a Japanese diplomat: "My men have done something very wrong and extremely regrettable."

I've also seen claims in both Chinese and English sources that Matsui tried to enforce order, but without Prince Asaka's support, the malaria-wracked old general couldn't stop the madness.

Potential primary culpability (and some guy kept on to be a scapegoat) is pretty well laid out here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Yasuhiko_Asaka#Role_in_the_Nanking_Massacre

In November 1937, Prince Asaka became temporary commander of the Japanese forces outside Nanking (or Nanjing), then capital of China, because General Matsui was ill. As temporary commander of the final assault on Nanking between 2 and 6 December 1937, he allegedly issued the order to "kill all captives", thus providing official sanction for what became known as the "Nanking Massacre" or the "Rape of Nanking" (12 December 1937 – 10 February 1938).[2] The order may have actually been issued, allegedly without the Prince's knowledge or assent, by Lieutenant Colonel Isamu Chō. He was a known radical ultra-nationalist staff member of the Central China Area Army who may have released the order under the sign manual of Asaka.

Technically, claiming that Matsui was not at primary fault and that Prince Asaka should have been hanged instead would be reducing his individual culpability--he WAS still the general in nominal command--and in some lenses could be seen as apologism for Matsui.


The Japanese royals will make for an interesting dispute. I look forward to how the Asian-Canadians deal with the problem in this story.

EDIT: Holy crap I just saw something that's so nonsense I have to reply to it:

May 19, 2019 10:18:05 GMT stevep said:

Would the allies, including Canada, be willing to accept Japanese control over those regions and oppose China and human rights pressures over the issue?  Or could some sort of 'independent' Manchuria be established and maintained with Japanese economic control/interests?

Word of advice: Never EVER say anything like this anywhere near a Chinese person or someone who's studied the Second Sino-Japanese War unless you are trying to start some very serious shit.
I can barely type straight due to shaking in RAGE.

You are suggesting that Unit 731 was better at human rights than either Communist or Nationalist China.
I suggest you think again. The "death toll" calculations from the Great Leap Forward were based on pretty crappy math, and though Nationalist China had more lethal purges compared to the Communists (Mao preferred to exile people, and it is overwhelmingly likely that once he hears about how China was rapidly surpassing the US economically he'd shrug and change tacks to start reforms moving earlier--he's not an idiot) it's still NOTHING compared to the IJA.
BTW Nationalist China also had its own famines, so it's not a Communist thing, just a largely-subsistence agrarian economy thing.

Sorry, but I have a bit of a problem with the institutions of Imperial Japan, as you can probably tell. I have no problem with the people, but the system, especially back in WWII... :/

[stevep]

guardian54 ,

   Your misreading what I said. I asked whether the politicians of the time would suggest/support the idea of a Manchurian state - which de-facto is likely to be under Japanese control/heavy influence despite pressure from assorted Chinese interests and human rights issues. Nothing to do with any suggestion that Chinese committed worst human rights crimes than Japan, although since the war the deaths from crimes/corruption/incompetence by the CCP have been very high.  That was not my point.

  I was thinking that since the bulk of the allies wished to avoid a war with Japan if they could, possibly especially if they were thinking of the potential of a war with Stalin developing what sort of aims the allies would have to settle the war in China.  Yes since as I understand it Chinese became the majority population in Manchuria in the 1930s it wouldn't be very democratic but, given that the Canadian ambassador was being very diplomatic in the interview with the emperor it sounded rather like their desire was to avoid war.  In which case, since they presumably also wished to end the Japanese occupation of China because of the appalling losses by the Chinese population, they would have to make some agreement with Japan and given what I understand of the Japanese position at the time I can't see them accepting the loss of their economic interests in Manchuria. 

  As such, unless you intend to say your determined on war with Japan, which seems to be something the allies seek to avoid at the moment at least, its a question of what terms would be likely to be suggested.  Frankly I think such a proposal wouldn't be accepted  by imperial Japan so its likely that either direct conflict is likely between the allies and Japan or a Chinese victory aided by weapons and equipment from the west along with probably a fair number of volunteers - which might well be likely to lead to a wider war anyway.  However I think the allies seek to avoid such a confrontation with Japan at least until the Nazis are completed defeated and possibly some resolution of issues with Stalin.  It could alternatively be that 2018 Canada isn't that willing to face another war and thinks that possibly some agreements can be made with Japan but the approach by the ambassador definitely didn't seem to be along of the line of deadlines or ultimatums.

  Steve

  PS  On your initial post about the effectiveness of the Bushmaster again German armour its not just that it can penetrate German armour at 2k but possibly as importantly as long as it can see the target it can hit it at that range, which is way beyond the effectiveness of WWII weapons of the time.

[lordroel]

Aug 21, 2019 15:09:22 GMT stevep said:

  PS  On your initial post about the effectiveness of the Bushmaster again German armour its not just that it can penetrate German armour at 2k but possibly as importantly as long as it can see the target it can hit it at that range, which is way beyond the effectiveness of WWII weapons of the time.

Well would a Busmaster be able to penetrate a Panther tank, i assume it has thinker armor than a Panzer 4.

[stevep]

Aug 21, 2019 15:17:59 GMT lordroel said:

Aug 21, 2019 15:09:22 GMT stevep said:

  PS  On your initial post about the effectiveness of the Bushmaster again German armour its not just that it can penetrate German armour at 2k but possibly as importantly as long as it can see the target it can hit it at that range, which is way beyond the effectiveness of WWII weapons of the time.

Well would a Busmaster be able to penetrate a Panther tank, i assume it has thinker armor than a Panzer 4.

  I don't know but the Panther wasn't available OTL until 43 - in part in reaction to encountering heavy Soviet tanks in Russia OTL and even then being rushed into service meant that it had a lot of teething problems.  I can't see anything similar being available for this conflict especially given the pounding German infrastructure has taken and that large areas are already occupied and the German military is basically well into melt-down.

[lordroel]

Aug 21, 2019 16:58:47 GMT stevep said:

Aug 21, 2019 15:17:59 GMT lordroel said:

Well would a Busmaster be able to penetrate a Panther tank, i assume it has thinker armor than a Panzer 4.

  I don't know but the Panther wasn't available OTL until 43 - in part in reaction to encountering heavy Soviet tanks in Russia OTL and even then being rushed into service meant that it had a lot of teething problems.  I can't see anything similar being available for this conflict especially given the pounding German infrastructure has taken and that large areas are already occupied and the German military is basically well into melt-down.

Well now the Germans are encountering Leopard II tanks, the irony, 1940s Germany military being attack by late 1970s German design tanks.

[Zyobot]

Aug 22, 2019 3:54:58 GMT lordroel said:

Aug 21, 2019 16:58:47 GMT stevep said:

  I don't know but the Panther wasn't available OTL until 43 - in part in reaction to encountering heavy Soviet tanks in Russia OTL and even then being rushed into service meant that it had a lot of teething problems.  I can't see anything similar being available for this conflict especially given the pounding German infrastructure has taken and that large areas are already occupied and the German military is basically well into melt-down.

Well now the Germans are encountering Leopard II tanks, the irony, 1940s Germany military being attack by late 1970s German design tanks.

True. I take it that being thirty-something years behind in terms of technological advancement, Third Reich armor would get pummeled by '70s German tanks should they be deployed on the battlefield?

[guardian54]

Aug 21, 2019 15:09:22 GMT stevep said:

Yes since as I understand it Chinese became the majority population in Manchuria in the 1930s it wouldn't be very democratic but, given that the Canadian ambassador was being very diplomatic in the interview with the emperor it sounded rather like their desire was to avoid war.  In which case, since they presumably also wished to end the Japanese occupation of China because of the appalling losses by the Chinese population, they would have to make some agreement with Japan and given what I understand of the Japanese position at the time I can't see them accepting the loss of their economic interests in Manchuria. 

  As such, unless you intend to say your determined on war with Japan, which seems to be something the allies seek to avoid at the moment at least, its a question of what terms would be likely to be suggested.

No terms remotely acceptable to the Japanese would be accepted by Canada's population.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Canadians
The Chinese-Canadian (1.8 million circa 2016), Filipinio-Canadian (over 850,000 circa 2016), Vietnamese-Canadian (>240K) and Korean-Canadian (200K) communities DWARF the Japanese-Canadians (a bit over 120,000 circa 2016) by such a margin that they would DEMAND Japan be "contained". Manchuria goes back to China no ands, ifs, or buts, and Korea must be liberated.

The Filipinos would throw their lot in with the Chinese and Koreans purely out of collective memory and hatred of Imperial Japan. Everyone in that community lost ancestors or relatives of ancestors in the war to the Japanese.

That's 10% of Canada's population right there. Easily enough to be a kingmaker in national elections and even some provincial ones (BC, Ontario).
You only need about 10% of the population willing to act out to have a general uprising or protests that result in total system paralysis.

Now I don't expect all the emigrants to be angry, but at least half angry enough to proselytize is still table-flipping huge at 5% of the population. The other half of the 10% would have to mostly support it out of bandwagoning and social pressure.

And when everyone else is pumped up over fighting the most "Righteous War" they've heard of, pointing out the evils of the other main Axis power is going to fly pretty easily. Each person in the 5% proselytizing would grab perhaps 2 non-Asians, forming a voting bloc of at least 20% of the population demanding that Japan's raping of Asia be ENDED. And if that means war, then it is war!


Imagine 10% of the population aggressively propagandizing about some foreign regime's crimes, instead of the usual something like 0.1% protesting or being upset about something. And more so, the idea that "Japan got away with it" (Unit 731, Hirohito, etc.) would make it in some ways seem worse than Nazi Germany where at least all the biggest fish were caught and put down.

There is no way in hell Justin Trudeau is going to stand up for a country well known to be officially running literal rape farms. And if he does he's out of office so fast his head would spin.
Even in modern times Japan cannot be arsed to disguise their sheer contempt for the rest of East Asia at large:
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/04/osaka-drops-san-francisco-as-sister-city-over-comfort-women-statue
www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/2164034/japanese-nationalist-group-apologises-member-who-kicked-taiwan
The only reason that piece of shit in the latter article still has his foot is because he was at least smart enough to keep it to Taiwan, which was a slightly less abused "model colony"/assimilationist thing, unlike elsewhere. If he tried that in China, Korea, or Vietnam, he'd be literally risking limb and life.

So that suggested side-story really, REALLY does not pass plausibility sniff tests.

This guy put it well:
www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/april-1942-alternate-indian-ocean.305957/page-150#post-12826381

Dear All,

A number of things - firstly, there was no law forbidding aerial bombardment of combatants or non-combatants at the time - You could do it and it was legal. The only thing that regulated it was the Law of Reprisal ("You gas London and we feed Berlin the Vegetarian Option". - answers on a postcard for those who got that).

Secondly the Chrysanthemum Throne did not care if we slaughtered all the Japanese POWs or reduced Nihon to radioactive rubble. Did not care. The Chrysanthemum Throne did not care about the brutal murderous mistreatment of non-Japanese civilians and combatants taken prisoner by its forces, even when contrary to Japanese Law! It did not care. Even when it actions resulted in that Court of Last Resort: War, it refused to modify its behaviour or its armed forces behaviour: The Chrysanthemum Throne refused to abide by the Customs, Laws and Usages of War - rendering the even the Enforcement of the Laws of War by Act of Reprisal a nullity: The Chrysanthemum Throne was known to commit atrocities as Imperial policy, whether Nanking, Bataan, Singapore or HK, it meant that the ability of the custom and usage of Reprisal to restrain the Japanese Army and Navy was nil.

It made for a bloodier war than need be. A war of the Chrysanthemum Throne that was untrammelled by Law domestic, international or any of the practical Laws, Customs, and Usages of War - No Truth Speaking to Power. The Allied combatants knew the kind of enemy they were fighting, where words such as "murderous", "cannibalistic", "sadistic", "vile" were merely signposts on the road to Hell that was endured by millions in chains in Asia during the Japanese Occupation.

I suggest the Allied fliers buckets of goodwill regarding the Imperial combatants who bailed from the Bismarck Sea Marus had possibly been drained by 1943, or perhaps earlier in Nanking or Bataan or Singapore or HK. Though I could be wrong.

Yours
Stafford1068

Bushido Delenda Est!

[lordroel]

Aug 25, 2019 4:42:26 GMT guardian54 said:

Aug 21, 2019 15:09:22 GMT stevep said:

Yes since as I understand it Chinese became the majority population in Manchuria in the 1930s it wouldn't be very democratic but, given that the Canadian ambassador was being very diplomatic in the interview with the emperor it sounded rather like their desire was to avoid war.  In which case, since they presumably also wished to end the Japanese occupation of China because of the appalling losses by the Chinese population, they would have to make some agreement with Japan and given what I understand of the Japanese position at the time I can't see them accepting the loss of their economic interests in Manchuria. 

  As such, unless you intend to say your determined on war with Japan, which seems to be something the allies seek to avoid at the moment at least, its a question of what terms would be likely to be suggested.

No terms remotely acceptable to the Japanese would be accepted by Canada's population.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Canadians
The Chinese-Canadian (1.8 million circa 2016), Filipinio-Canadian (over 850,000 circa 2016), Vietnamese-Canadian (>240K) and Korean-Canadian (200K) communities DWARF the Japanese-Canadians (a bit over 120,000 circa 2016) by such a margin that they would DEMAND Japan be "contained". Manchuria goes back to China no ands, ifs, or buts, and Korea must be liberated.

The Filipinos would throw their lot in with the Chinese and Koreans purely out of collective memory and hatred of Imperial Japan. Everyone in that community lost ancestors or relatives of ancestors in the war to the Japanese.

That's 10% of Canada's population right there. Easily enough to be a kingmaker in national elections and even some provincial ones (BC, Ontario).
You only need about 10% of the population willing to act out to have a general uprising or protests that result in total system paralysis.

Now I don't expect all the emigrants to be angry, but at least half angry enough to proselytize is still table-flipping huge at 5% of the population. The other half of the 10% would have to mostly support it out of bandwagoning and social pressure.

And when everyone else is pumped up over fighting the most "Righteous War" they've heard of, pointing out the evils of the other main Axis power is going to fly pretty easily. Each person in the 5% proselytizing would grab perhaps 2 non-Asians, forming a voting bloc of at least 20% of the population demanding that Japan's raping of Asia be ENDED. And if that means war, then it is war!


Imagine 10% of the population aggressively propagandizing about some foreign regime's crimes, instead of the usual something like 0.1% protesting or being upset about something. And more so, the idea that "Japan got away with it" (Unit 731, Hirohito, etc.) would make it in some ways seem worse than Nazi Germany where at least all the biggest fish were caught and put down.

There is no way in hell Justin Trudeau is going to stand up for a country well known to be officially running literal rape farms. And if he does he's out of office so fast his head would spin.
Even in modern times Japan cannot be arsed to disguise their sheer contempt for the rest of East Asia at large:
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/04/osaka-drops-san-francisco-as-sister-city-over-comfort-women-statue
www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/2164034/japanese-nationalist-group-apologises-member-who-kicked-taiwan
The only reason that piece of shit in the latter article still has his foot is because he was at least smart enough to keep it to Taiwan, which was a slightly less abused "model colony"/assimilationist thing, unlike elsewhere. If he tried that in China, Korea, or Vietnam, he'd be literally risking limb and life.

So that suggested side-story really, REALLY does not pass plausibility sniff tests.

This guy put it well:
www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/april-1942-alternate-indian-ocean.305957/page-150#post-12826381

Dear All,

A number of things - firstly, there was no law forbidding aerial bombardment of combatants or non-combatants at the time - You could do it and it was legal. The only thing that regulated it was the Law of Reprisal ("You gas London and we feed Berlin the Vegetarian Option". - answers on a postcard for those who got that).

Secondly the Chrysanthemum Throne did not care if we slaughtered all the Japanese POWs or reduced Nihon to radioactive rubble. Did not care. The Chrysanthemum Throne did not care about the brutal murderous mistreatment of non-Japanese civilians and combatants taken prisoner by its forces, even when contrary to Japanese Law! It did not care. Even when it actions resulted in that Court of Last Resort: War, it refused to modify its behaviour or its armed forces behaviour: The Chrysanthemum Throne refused to abide by the Customs, Laws and Usages of War - rendering the even the Enforcement of the Laws of War by Act of Reprisal a nullity: The Chrysanthemum Throne was known to commit atrocities as Imperial policy, whether Nanking, Bataan, Singapore or HK, it meant that the ability of the custom and usage of Reprisal to restrain the Japanese Army and Navy was nil.

It made for a bloodier war than need be. A war of the Chrysanthemum Throne that was untrammelled by Law domestic, international or any of the practical Laws, Customs, and Usages of War - No Truth Speaking to Power. The Allied combatants knew the kind of enemy they were fighting, where words such as "murderous", "cannibalistic", "sadistic", "vile" were merely signposts on the road to Hell that was endured by millions in chains in Asia during the Japanese Occupation.

I suggest the Allied fliers buckets of goodwill regarding the Imperial combatants who bailed from the Bismarck Sea Marus had possibly been drained by 1943, or perhaps earlier in Nanking or Bataan or Singapore or HK. Though I could be wrong.

Yours
Stafford1068

Bushido Delenda Est!

guardian54, you made your point, as did i concerning posting about War Crimes, so can we go back to the thread and discuses this good TL, thank you.

[stevep]

Aug 25, 2019 4:42:26 GMT guardian54 said:

Aug 21, 2019 15:09:22 GMT stevep said:

Yes since as I understand it Chinese became the majority population in Manchuria in the 1930s it wouldn't be very democratic but, given that the Canadian ambassador was being very diplomatic in the interview with the emperor it sounded rather like their desire was to avoid war.  In which case, since they presumably also wished to end the Japanese occupation of China because of the appalling losses by the Chinese population, they would have to make some agreement with Japan and given what I understand of the Japanese position at the time I can't see them accepting the loss of their economic interests in Manchuria. 

  As such, unless you intend to say your determined on war with Japan, which seems to be something the allies seek to avoid at the moment at least, its a question of what terms would be likely to be suggested.

No terms remotely acceptable to the Japanese would be accepted by Canada's population.

  That is basically what I was saying.  I was speculating as to why the Canadian ambassador was taking such a fairly tame stance with Japan, apart from him being a diplomat of course.   Its clear that their seeking to avoid war, at least at the moment.

  Plus there is a difference between being very unhappy with Japan and being willing to go to war, quite possibly on their own.  Values in the 1940's were different to nowadays in the west and having fought one bloody - to them especially - war the western allies are unlikely to be that eager to take on Japan over the issue of Manchuria and Korea.  They will support political and economic means to get Japan out of China proper including military aid to the Chinese government and, especially once the war with Nazi Germany is over making sure their colonies are defended against a Japanese attack but I doubt that they would be willing to go to war, without being attacked, over Manchuria.  Ditto the US is likely to be very unwilling to get into such a conflict without being attacked.  Without the shock of the fall of France its still going to be deeply isolationist.

  Don't forget your talking of the same governments that agreed to accept that the bulk of eastern Europe, including Poland, for which Britain went to war, over to a brutal dictatorship.  Admittedly this was partly due to their own intensive propaganda campaign to make the Soviets acceptable allies and the exhaustion from a much longer and bloodier war and it was with great reluctance on Churchill's part.  As such if they could get a Japanese withdrawal from China then I suspect that the bulk of the 1940 western world will see that as a good result. 

  I repeat, I'm not saying this is going to happen, or even be likely.  That's ultimately up to RedRobin as the author of this story.  However that looks like the way the Canadian government is thinking at the moment. 

  There is another factor here.  Just as the 1940 world will struggle to understand the Canadian viewpoint on a lot of issues the reverse also applies.  It could well be that the political leadership of Canada, while they know as recorded history, of the nature of the Japanese imperial government they don't really understand how deeply ingrained the military expansionism was.  Possibly their thinking/hoping that there will be a step by the government to crush the main militarists to enable a peace settlement.  They could well be wrong here.  Again that's up to RedRobin as to how he sees things developing.

[guardian54]

lordroel , Sure. Since I'm a technical-minded guy, most of my questions about stories are technical ones. For example...

Why are LAV losses so high?

Given the sensor tech differences, Canadian LAV losses versus Panzer III and IV seem a bit high, and using a TOW is totally expensive overkill instead of just shooting them with the autocannon, as they can spot the Panzer a long, long way away, and kill it far sooner than the Panzer can kill them, both in range (as I mentioned with citations at the top of this thread page) and in speed of targeting.

This is the armour data for a LAV III (used by Canada, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAV_III#Protection)

The basic armour of the LAV III, covering the Standardization Agreement STANAG 4569 level III, which provides all-round protection against 7.62×51mm NATO small calibre rounds. A ceramic appliqué armour (MEXAS) can be added, which protects against 14.5×114mm heavy calibre rounds from 500 meters. In December 2008 the Government of Canada awarded EODC Engineering, Developing and Licensing Inc. C$81.5 million worth of contracts to provide for add-on-armour kits, modules and spares for its LAV III wheeled armoured personnel carriers.[27][28] This armour kit is intended to provide increased protection against improvised explosive devices (IED), explosively formed penetrators and 30 mm caliber armour piercing rounds.

Uh, guys, even if we go with the LOWER protection threshold mentioned, 14.5x114mm from 500 meters...

www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php/Ammunition_Data
14.5mm KPV: BS-41 AP-I has 52mm RHAe penetration with kinetic energy effects at 1500m.

Meanwhile the 5cm KwK 38, the highest penetration gun found on German panzers, has APCBC (685m/s muzzle velocity, hence the inferior penetration) shells that pen 59mm at 500m, or 45mm at 1000m for vertical armour, which a LAV is NOT presenting.

If we go by the protection needed to withstand Russian 2A42/2A72 30mm autocannons, those can pen 60mm at 1800m.

It seems a LAV III should be almost as protected frontally as a Tiger (100mm vertical plate), which, by 1940-1941 standards, makes it incredibly powerful.

It IS plausible that a 75mm HE shell could noticeably damage one, as sloped armour doesn't help HE effects, but destruction seems questionable. Given mobility, range and protection supremacy, the Canadians sure seem to be losing quite a number of LAVs...

Hope the author updates soon and/or answers the technical problem. Perhaps the Germans are just waiting in ambush with engines and vehicle cold and hand-cranking the turrets. That could give them flanking shots which would easily pen and kill a LAV.

stevep , This is... actually very plausible for the Canadian government. And it doesn't even have to be naivete.
10% of the population may be on the warpath, but even the Chinese-Canadians would agree to wrapping up the war in Europe first as Canada isn't exactly rich/powerful enough to easily fight two major wars at once. Besides, the fleet has to build up its logistics train (like how the USN had to abandon the Western Pacific due to logistics)!
It seems that's likely the main bulk of the Canadian government's propaganda machine.
Disagreement/dispute/question resolved, hurrah!

[James G]

guardian54 I in all honesty ask if you just came here to cause trouble? Because it sure looks like it. You stated you only joined the site to 'correct' one member... or was it a 'call out' as you deemed it? This isn't ah.com, this isn't their Chat section where call outs to gain on message progressive points are the done thing. You have then moved to pulling threads out of another poster's story. I'd respectfully ask that you kindly stop.