Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 31, 2019 13:11:53 GMT
As another TL featuring Bush Jr. that I came up with just last night, I call this one ‘ Blue Dog Dubya’—or, what if George W. Bush became a conservative Democrat, maybe even running for president as one? At least, this is all based in the assumption that Bush Jr. won’t turn out unrecognizably different from his GOP counterpart IOTL. Maybe this scenario could be paired with ‘Republican Barack Obama’ or something, which would make quite a TL in of itself if ever written. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 2, 2019 23:17:55 GMT
For yet another cross-time presidential election of mine that I’m thinking of making into a TL, ‘1944 FDR Vs. 2004 G.W. Bush’—in which the western half of the 2004 United States gets sent back to 1944. Once the usual shock and awe of this ISOT dissipates and assuming that a mutually agreed-upon election cycle takes place, the ensuing months should prove a tough match-up to call. It's the Silent-Generation New Dealer versus the Boomer neoconservative from sixty years into the future.
At first glance, the notion that FDR would stomp Dubya into the ground on Election Day makes sense, mainly because of his historical clout and lasting legacy. After all, he did lead America through the Great Depression and to victory in World War Two IOTL, leaving the US a global superpower with progressive legislation—whether welfare programs like Social Security, or minimum-wage and child-labor laws to protect workers—that remains in place to this day. However, I also think he has a number of things going against him that Bush would milk for just about every last drop.
For starters, being someone straight from 1944, FDR would probably be too socially conservative to jive with most 2004 voters. Whereas Dubya is at least accustomed to the permissive society (even though he probably disapproves in private), someone like Roosevelt would probably balk at uptimer social and cultural norms of that sort. He might also need to be a whole lot more quiet about civil rights concerns due to the attitudes of downtimer America, which works in Bush's favor since he can be a whole lot more vocal about it towards uptimer audiences. Add in FDR's mass internment of Japanese-Americans that Dubya hasn't come close to replicating, and I'd be rather unsurprised at normally Democratic-leaning minorities largely supporting him this time around. I can definitely see uptimer senior citizens being more divided, though; on the one hand, many of them would have good memories of the era and lasting reverence for FDR as the man who got America through the Great Depression and (most of) World War Two, but on the other, they might also perceive him as too left-wing once they get wind of his very economically progressive platform. Moreover, so long as Roosevelt is just a few years shy of becoming a senior himself, uptimer revelations of his suffering health and otherwise-impending death in office from OTL might siphon off downtimer support as well, however much the man vows to get examined by the best doctors and take their advice all but religiously.
On foreign policy, they'd be mutually hellbent on ending World War Two and ensuring that America retains its superpower status into the coming decades and beyond, so there's no issue there. Even so, Bush might attack him for supposedly being too "soft", "generous" or "kid gloves-prone" with the USSR IOTL in terms of how Eastern Europe was ultimately carved up, and would voice a hardline opposition towards communism well in advance. How FDR might defend himself and convince the public that he hates the Reds and what they stand for every bit as much as his GOP opponent from the next century, I don't know.
Still, I suppose that the closest thing to finding out who comes out on top in this election cycle would either be a) discussing the scenario as a thread or b) composing a TL that features it, front and center. The latter, however, may have to wait until I've become a better alternate-historian.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 19, 2019 17:14:18 GMT
Since I haven't seen them around all that much, I wonder if I could write a TL about a libertarian candidate becoming POTUS. Granted, this would probably happen in either the future or a rather different TL than the one we inhabit. Nonetheless, it'd make an interesting change of pace to have someone who's basically pro-freedom-all-around occupying the Oval Office someday.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 23, 2019 18:22:27 GMT
Since I haven't seen them around all that much, I wonder if I could write a TL about a libertarian candidate becoming POTUS. Granted, this would probably happen in either the future or a rather different TL than the one we inhabit. Nonetheless, it'd make an interesting change of pace to have someone who's basically pro-freedom-all-around occupying the Oval Office someday. Having come up with a potential title for such a TL just now, maybe I’ll call it Landslide For Liberty or something like that. In order to remain true to its name, it’d probably entail an overwhelming victory for the libertarian—or at least, libertarian-leaning—presidential candidate. Probably in a political environment characterized by everyday citizens being sick and tired of both parties and perceived government intrusion into their lives as well, but more on those grievances somewhere else, perhaps. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 26, 2019 23:31:13 GMT
(provisional title) Blue Dawn: Liberating Russia, 1994
In the middle of the August coup against Gorbachev in 1991, Yeltsin was supposed to be arrested. The POD is here. Yeltsin is detained and in an accidental bit of gunplay he is fatally shot.
The coup lasts a few more days than in OTL without Yeltsin but still falls due to the plotters weakness.
The Soviet Union 'survives'. The New Union Treaty comes into effect. Still, parts of the country have already and continue to breakaway.
Gorbachev faces a second coup in the midst of this. Hardliners take over in early 1992. The Caucasus is a war zone and then there is an illegal separatist effort made in Kaliningrad. Union forces retake it, drawing the Baltic States into a war which they lose and are occupied.
The Union is an enemy of the West. There is no shock treatment capitalism nor Western aid. This affects events globally.
Still, the Union cannot survive. Gorbachev's successor is taken down in a coup and then there is another one. Moscow is coup town!
Soviet forces withdrawing from Eastern Europe return home and a general - maybe Alexander Lebed - takes charge of them and marches on Moscow as a Napoleon type figure. He wins. The Union now has its fourth leader in just one year. 1992 ends with Lebed trying to re-engage with the West while slowly, in his own way, ending what is left of the communist mess.
Yet, the nation is still broken. The Union falls when Lebed dies in mid 1993 in an aircraft accident that has all the hallmarks of an assassination. Successors fight. The Union has a civil war. Bits break off to the south (the Stans) and the west (the Ukraine). The West freaks out at a civil war where they fear that at any moment it will go nuclear. It doesn't.
Most of Siberia breaks away successfully and in Moscow, the general in-charge there (heading an illegitimate regime) cannot stop this. The Baltics remain occupied and Poland feels threatened when a shouting match occurs. The West stands with Poland.
Early 1994, something occurs to bring about a situation where the Union, effectively western Russia & Belarus (not under Lukashenko), falls. Civil war again takes places. Russian atrocities occur not just against its own people but in the Baltics and where it fights the semi-independent Ukraine too. Chemicals and bio-weapons are used.
Russia has nukes but nothing like it had in 1991. By 1994, Russia is a paper tiger.
NATO invades.
Plausible?
It needs a lot of work to fill in the gaps. Getting rid of the nuke threat is the biggest one!
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 27, 2019 4:13:38 GMT
(provisional title) Blue Dawn: Liberating Russia, 1994In the middle of the August coup against Gorbachev in 1991, Yeltsin was supposed to be arrested. The POD is here. Yeltsin is detained and in an accidental bit of gunplay he is fatally shot. The coup lasts a few more days than in OTL without Yeltsin but still falls due to the plotters weakness. The Soviet Union 'survives'. The New Union Treaty comes into effect. Still, parts of the country have already and continue to breakaway. Gorbachev faces a second coup in the midst of this. Hardliners take over in early 1992. The Caucasus is a war zone and then there is an illegal separatist effort made in Kaliningrad. Union forces retake it, drawing the Baltic States into a war which they lose and are occupied. The Union is an enemy of the West. There is no shock treatment capitalism nor Western aid. This affects events globally. Still, the Union cannot survive. Gorbachev's successor is taken down in a coup and then there is another one. Moscow is coup town! Soviet forces withdrawing from Eastern Europe return home and a general - maybe Alexander Lebed - takes charge of them and marches on Moscow as a Napoleon type figure. He wins. The Union now has its fourth leader in just one year. 1992 ends with Lebed trying to re-engage with the West while slowly, in his own way, ending what is left of the communist mess. Yet, the nation is still broken. The Union falls when Lebed dies in mid 1993 in an aircraft accident that has all the hallmarks of an assassination. Successors fight. The Union has a civil war. Bits break off to the south (the Stans) and the west (the Ukraine). The West freaks out at a civil war where they fear that at any moment it will go nuclear. It doesn't. Most of Siberia breaks away successfully and in Moscow, the general in-charge there (heading an illegitimate regime) cannot stop this. The Baltics remain occupied and Poland feels threatened when a shouting match occurs. The West stands with Poland. Early 1994, something occurs to bring about a situation where the Union, effectively western Russia & Belarus (not under Lukashenko), falls. Civil war again takes places. Russian atrocities occur not just against its own people but in the Baltics and where it fights the semi-independent Ukraine too. Chemicals and bio-weapons are used. Russia has nukes but nothing like it had in 1991. By 1994, Russia is a paper tiger. NATO invades. Plausible? It needs a lot of work to fill in the gaps. Getting rid of the nuke threat is the biggest one! [Adjusts glasses] ...Well this premise certain seems...interesting. As much as I’d like to get the popcorn ready, though, I also get the impression that this will take time to flesh out and fine-tune before becoming an actual, full-blown publication online. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 27, 2019 9:37:00 GMT
(provisional title) Blue Dawn: Liberating Russia, 1994In the middle of the August coup against Gorbachev in 1991, Yeltsin was supposed to be arrested. The POD is here. Yeltsin is detained and in an accidental bit of gunplay he is fatally shot. The coup lasts a few more days than in OTL without Yeltsin but still falls due to the plotters weakness. The Soviet Union 'survives'. The New Union Treaty comes into effect. Still, parts of the country have already and continue to breakaway. Gorbachev faces a second coup in the midst of this. Hardliners take over in early 1992. The Caucasus is a war zone and then there is an illegal separatist effort made in Kaliningrad. Union forces retake it, drawing the Baltic States into a war which they lose and are occupied. The Union is an enemy of the West. There is no shock treatment capitalism nor Western aid. This affects events globally. Still, the Union cannot survive. Gorbachev's successor is taken down in a coup and then there is another one. Moscow is coup town! Soviet forces withdrawing from Eastern Europe return home and a general - maybe Alexander Lebed - takes charge of them and marches on Moscow as a Napoleon type figure. He wins. The Union now has its fourth leader in just one year. 1992 ends with Lebed trying to re-engage with the West while slowly, in his own way, ending what is left of the communist mess. Yet, the nation is still broken. The Union falls when Lebed dies in mid 1993 in an aircraft accident that has all the hallmarks of an assassination. Successors fight. The Union has a civil war. Bits break off to the south (the Stans) and the west (the Ukraine). The West freaks out at a civil war where they fear that at any moment it will go nuclear. It doesn't. Most of Siberia breaks away successfully and in Moscow, the general in-charge there (heading an illegitimate regime) cannot stop this. The Baltics remain occupied and Poland feels threatened when a shouting match occurs. The West stands with Poland. Early 1994, something occurs to bring about a situation where the Union, effectively western Russia & Belarus (not under Lukashenko), falls. Civil war again takes places. Russian atrocities occur not just against its own people but in the Baltics and where it fights the semi-independent Ukraine too. Chemicals and bio-weapons are used. Russia has nukes but nothing like it had in 1991. By 1994, Russia is a paper tiger. NATO invades. Plausible? It needs a lot of work to fill in the gaps. Getting rid of the nuke threat is the biggest one! [Adjusts glasses] ...Well this premise certain seems...interesting. As much as I’d like to get the popcorn ready, though, I also get the impression that this will take time to flesh out and fine-tune before becoming an actual, full-blown publication online. It is full of gaps and needs work... plus research. But I'm considering doing it next year. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 27, 2019 14:34:27 GMT
[Adjusts glasses] ...Well this premise certain seems...interesting. As much as I’d like to get the popcorn ready, though, I also get the impression that this will take time to flesh out and fine-tune before becoming an actual, full-blown publication online. It is full of gaps and needs work... plus research. But I'm considering doing it next year. Alright, well, in that case, I’ll be waiting. How NATO plans on invading Russia of all places—albeit a vastly weakened one—is beyond me. Hence one of the reasons that your proposed TL piques my lasting interest. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 27, 2019 14:40:34 GMT
It is full of gaps and needs work... plus research. But I'm considering doing it next year. Alright, well, in that case, I’ll be waiting. How NATO plans on invading Russia of all places—albeit a vastly weakened one—is beyond me. Hence one of the reasons that your proposed TL piques my lasting interest. Rule #1 of invading Russia: don't invade Russia. For rules #2 through to #99, see #1. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 27, 2019 14:49:52 GMT
Alright, well, in that case, I’ll be waiting. How NATO plans on invading Russia of all places—albeit a vastly weakened one—is beyond me. Hence one of the reasons that your proposed TL piques my lasting interest. Rule #1 of invading Russia: don't invade Russia. For rules #2 through to #99, see #1. I had a feeling that you’d say that. Best of luck to nineties NATO in this nigh-impossible endeavor of theirs—because they’ll sure as f—k need it. |
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lordbyron
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Post by lordbyron on Nov 27, 2019 16:37:36 GMT
[Adjusts glasses] ...Well this premise certain seems...interesting. As much as I’d like to get the popcorn ready, though, I also get the impression that this will take time to flesh out and fine-tune before becoming an actual, full-blown publication online. It is full of gaps and needs work... plus research. But I'm considering doing it next year. I've got an idea for you, James G , and here it is: the KAL 007 shootdown goes worse (maybe the US delegation is on board, instead of just Larry McDonald--including ex-president Richard Nixon) and, well, the US-Soviet Cold War relations go downhill, and a number of incidents and accidents lead the Soviets to believe that the US plans to use the Able Archer exercise to actually invade so the Soviets preempt them (it's based on a timeline I read on AH.com; search for Able Archer War) and World War III breaks out as a result... |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 27, 2019 17:08:05 GMT
It is full of gaps and needs work... plus research. But I'm considering doing it next year. I've got an idea for you, James G, and here it is: the KAL 007 shootdown goes worse (maybe the US delegation is on board, instead of just Larry McDonald--including ex-president Richard Nixon) and, well, the US-Soviet Cold War relations go downhill, and a number of incidents and accidents lead the Soviets to believe that the US plans to use the Able Archer exercise to actually invade so the Soviets preempt them (it's based on this timeline: www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/able-archer-83-timeline-of-a-third-world-war-in-1983.279881/) and World War III breaks out as a result... , the page you have linked to AH.com does not work, also some members of the forum are not members of AH.com and thus cannot see some of the board there. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 27, 2019 17:20:03 GMT
It is full of gaps and needs work... plus research. But I'm considering doing it next year. I've got an idea for you, James G , and here it is: the KAL 007 shootdown goes worse (maybe the US delegation is on board, instead of just Larry McDonald--including ex-president Richard Nixon) and, well, the US-Soviet Cold War relations go downhill, and a number of incidents and accidents lead the Soviets to believe that the US plans to use the Able Archer exercise to actually invade so the Soviets preempt them (it's based on this timeline: www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/able-archer-83-timeline-of-a-third-world-war-in-1983.279881/) and World War III breaks out as a result... I read that back in the day. The idea inspired me to write my first own WW3 tale. lordbyron, the page you have linked to AH.com does not work, also some members of the forum are not members of AH.com and thus cannot see some of the board there. Just being helpful: If you remove the last bracket, the link works. |
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lordbyron
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Post by lordbyron on Nov 27, 2019 17:21:36 GMT
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 27, 2019 17:23:37 GMT
Thanks for the updated link lordbyron, will check it out. |
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