Long Live the King - a more successful Greece

[stevep]

Long Live the King

Chapter 1: The Anatolian war.

    2-10-20 - King Alexander is not bitten by a monkey, which causes his death from sepsis a few days later. This means that the Greek states doesn't see the return of the exiled King Constantine, the following dismissal of many veteran generals and loss of western support. 

    25-10-20 – The Greek election sees Venizelos's Liberal Party returned to power with a clear majority of the popular vote ~410,000 compared to 310,000 for the main opposition party, which backed the deposed King Constantine. More importantly the Liberals gained a clear if relatively narrow majority in Parliament, 183 seats to 165. [This and the continued survival of King Alexander meant there was no referendum on the return of the former King Alexander. That was followed by the allies cutting financial and military aid to Greece and also King Alexander sacked many military officers and others resigned].

    Dec 20 – The Greeks receive a check in their advance at the 1st Battle of Inonu but respond quickly with more forces and defeat the Turks in the 2nd battle three weeks later. [OTL the single Greek division was defeated in the 1st battle and a larger force defeated in a 2nd battle in March which boosted Turkish morale. It also prompted allied proposals to modify the Treaty of Sevres which was rejected by both sides. Here this doesn't happen. ].

    June 1921 – The Greeks successfully break the Turkish defences on the Afyonkarahisar-Eskishir Line which cuts the major rail links between the coastline and the Turkish heartland. Also in the pursuit they rout much of the Turkish forces, including the capture of general Inonu. [OTL the Greeks won but failed to pursue their defeated enemies. Here their better organisation and morale mean they not only win a little earlier but decisively shatter the Turkish forces.]

    Aug-Sept 1921 – In the bitterly fought battle of Sakarya the Greeks again defeat the weakened Turks, their commander General Kemal being wounded and three days later they capture Konya, the Turkish nationalist capital. After this the allies again call for negotiation to end the fighting and the Greeks are willing but the Turks still refuse. [OTL the Turks were slightly inferior in number and short of weapons while the Greeks were stretching their supply lines. TTL the Turks are markedly weaker and the continued leadership and victories mean the Greek have slightly more men and better morale. As such a Greek defeat, them being unable to force the Turkish defences mean that they have to withdraw and the Turks got a vital breather and morale boost.]

    From this point on the Turks increasingly rely on guerilla and terrorist type operations in Greek controlled area, which often led to harsh retaliation.

    23rd -30th Oct 1921 - The Constantinople Riots. Violent uprising by Turkish mobs in the city see attacks on the Christian minority and also western embassies, businesses and the like. Something like 15000 non-Turks are killed or injured in the early stages before allied forces move in to suppress the riots often with heavy casualties for the riots. Some of the earliest aid comes from elements of General Wrangel's White Russian army, elements of which had been in E Thrace since their withdrawal from Crimea the previous November. There is a lot of destruction and the sacking of the French embassy and killing of most of its staff causes extra outrage in the west and secure their continued support.


    March 22 – Reports of continued maltreatment of the Greek population along the Black Sea coast prompts the Greek occupation of the regions around Sinop and Samsun where many of them live, with British and some French support. Details are widely reported in the western press and further strengthen feelings against the Turks.

    May 22 – The Greeks have had to thin their lines somewhat to do this and a new Turkish offensive is launched near Ankara, although with rail links having been improved and air power helping detect enemy movements plus the fact the Greeks are on the defensive the Turks, despite considerable material aid from the Soviets are poorly equipped and the Greeks hold on after bitter fighting.

    The same month sees French forces from Syria advance into the Alexandretta and Cilicia regions of SE Anatolia. They also started talking with some local Kurdish tribes who were resentful of their treatment by the Turks.

    Those checks and the danger of things collapsing totally were the final straw for the bulk of the nationalists and lead by Kamel they opened negotiations with the western powers to end the conflict. This resulted in the Treaty of Busra in Aug-Sept 1922. By this the following are agreed:
a) Greek control was recognised over most of NW Anatolia with a border on the Meander River up to and including the rail links captured the previous summer up to the region around Izmir. This also gave them control of E Thrace and the straits. They would withdraw from the Ankara region and also the Black Sea coast.

b) France would have a protectorate over Cilicia and Alexandretta and Italy over SW Anatolia, basically south of the Meander from the coast east to Antalya. [Italy has continued its presence in the region because without Constantine returning Greece has not lost western support and also the greater Greek success in the war means holding onto the region has looked more attractive to the Italian government.  This doesn't stop the fall of the government to Mussolini's fascist regime.]

c) There would be a transfer of population with the remaining Greek populations of 'Turkey' who were largely from the Black Sea coast and Cappadocia moving to Greece and the Turks from the Greek controlled area to the new Turkish state. [As OTL the Turks will take a religious definition here where people will be allocated on grounds of religion rather than language or cultural identity, which means a fair number of Turkish speaking Christians will be expelled to Greece. Greece will be a bit more tolerant OTL as it has more lands and give the choice to most Greek speaking Muslims as to stay or go to Turkey. Also recognising their usefulness it will invite Wrangel's veterans to accept Greek citizenship and land grants in NW Anatolia and many will do so.]  All in all this saw about 600,000 people sent to Greece and nearly three times that under to Turkey.

    The Turkish state had already had to give up parts of the Yerevan province it had taken from the short lived Armenian state, transferring them to the new Armenian SSR in return for Soviet aid. [Basically here the Soviets get back a bit of Armenia as the Turkish bargining position is far weaker than OTL].

    Finally a period of peace settles over Anatolia, or at least in the western region.

    Basically finally putting together a short TL, which at a later stage one of you may identify later on.   Got a few more chapters to come.

  

[lordroel]

Sept 7, 2018 17:53:49 GMT stevep said:

Long Live the King

Chapter 1: The Anatolian war.

    2-10-20 - King Alexander is not bitten by a monkey, which causes his death from sepsis a few days later. This means that the Greek states doesn't see the return of the exiled King Constantine, the following dismissal of many veteran generals and loss of western support. 

    25-10-20 – The Greek election sees Venizelos's Liberal Party returned to power with a clear majority of the popular vote ~410,000 compared to 310,000 for the main opposition party, which backed the deposed King Constantine. More importantly the Liberals gained a clear if relatively narrow majority in Parliament, 183 seats to 165. [This and the continued survival of King Alexander meant there was no referendum on the return of the former King Alexander. That was followed by the allies cutting financial and military aid to Greece and also King Alexander sacked many military officers and others resigned].

    Dec 20 – The Greeks receive a check in their advance at the 1st Battle of Inonu but respond quickly with more forces and defeat the Turks in the 2nd battle three weeks later. [OTL the single Greek division was defeated in the 1st battle and a larger force defeated in a 2nd battle in March which boosted Turkish morale. It also prompted allied proposals to modify the Treaty of Sevres which was rejected by both sides. Here this doesn't happen. ].

    June 1921 – The Greeks successfully break the Turkish defences on the Afyonkarahisar-Eskishir Line which cuts the major rail links between the coastline and the Turkish heartland. Also in the pursuit they rout much of the Turkish forces, including the capture of general Inonu. [OTL the Greeks won but failed to pursue their defeated enemies. Here their better organisation and morale mean they not only win a little earlier but decisively shatter the Turkish forces.]

    Aug-Sept 1921 – In the bitterly fought battle of Sakarya the Greeks again defeat the weakened Turks, their commander General Kemal being wounded and three days later they capture Konya, the Turkish nationalist capital. After this the allies again call for negotiation to end the fighting and the Greeks are willing but the Turks still refuse. [OTL the Turks were slightly inferior in number and short of weapons while the Greeks were stretching their supply lines. TTL the Turks are markedly weaker and the continued leadership and victories mean the Greek have slightly more men and better morale. As such a Greek defeat, them being unable to force the Turkish defences mean that they have to withdraw and the Turks got a vital breather and morale boost.]

    From this point on the Turks increasingly rely on guerilla and terrorist type operations in Greek controlled area, which often led to harsh retaliation.

    23rd -30th Oct 1921 - The Constantinople Riots. Violent uprising by Turkish mobs in the city see attacks on the Christian minority and also western embassies, businesses and the like. Something like 15000 non-Turks are killed or injured in the early stages before allied forces move in to suppress the riots often with heavy casualties for the riots. Some of the earliest aid comes from elements of General Wrangel's White Russian army, elements of which had been in E Thrace since their withdrawal from Crimea the previous November. There is a lot of destruction and the sacking of the French embassy and killing of most of its staff causes extra outrage in the west and secure their continued support.


    March 22 – Reports of continued maltreatment of the Greek population along the Black Sea coast prompts the Greek occupation of the regions around Sinop and Samsun where many of them live, with British and some French support. Details are widely reported in the western press and further strengthen feelings against the Turks.

    May 22 – The Greeks have had to thin their lines somewhat to do this and a new Turkish offensive is launched near Ankara, although with rail links having been improved and air power helping detect enemy movements plus the fact the Greeks are on the defensive the Turks, despite considerable material aid from the Soviets are poorly equipped and the Greeks hold on after bitter fighting.

    The same month sees French forces from Syria advance into the Alexandretta and Cilicia regions of SE Anatolia. They also started talking with some local Kurdish tribes who were resentful of their treatment by the Turks.

    Those checks and the danger of things collapsing totally were the final straw for the bulk of the nationalists and lead by Kamel they opened negotiations with the western powers to end the conflict. This resulted in the Treaty of Busra in Aug-Sept 1922. By this the following are agreed:
a) Greek control was recognised over most of NW Anatolia with a border on the Meander River up to and including the rail links captured the previous summer up to the region around Izmir. This also gave them control of E Thrace and the straits. They would withdraw from the Ankara region and also the Black Sea coast.

b) France would have a protectorate over Cilicia and Alexandretta and Italy over SW Anatolia, basically south of the Meander from the coast east to Antalya. [Italy has continued its presence in the region because without Constantine returning Greece has not lost western support and also the greater Greek success in the war means holding onto the region has looked more attractive to the Italian government.  This doesn't stop the fall of the government to Mussolini's fascist regime.]

c) There would be a transfer of population with the remaining Greek populations of 'Turkey' who were largely from the Black Sea coast and Cappadocia moving to Greece and the Turks from the Greek controlled area to the new Turkish state. [As OTL the Turks will take a religious definition here where people will be allocated on grounds of religion rather than language or cultural identity, which means a fair number of Turkish speaking Christians will be expelled to Greece. Greece will be a bit more tolerant OTL as it has more lands and give the choice to most Greek speaking Muslims as to stay or go to Turkey. Also recognising their usefulness it will invite Wrangel's veterans to accept Greek citizenship and land grants in NW Anatolia and many will do so.]  All in all this saw about 600,000 people sent to Greece and nearly three times that under to Turkey.

    The Turkish state had already had to give up parts of the Yerevan province it had taken from the short lived Armenian state, transferring them to the new Armenian SSR in return for Soviet aid. [Basically here the Soviets get back a bit of Armenia as the Turkish bargining position is far weaker than OTL].

    Finally a period of peace settles over Anatolia, or at least in the western region.

    Basically finally putting together a short TL, which at a later stage one of you may identify later on.   Got a few more chapters to come.

  

Nice stevep, so is this Greece trying to do the Greater Greece (Megali Idea)

[stevep]

Sept 7, 2018 18:00:26 GMT lordroel said:

Sept 7, 2018 17:53:49 GMT stevep said:

Long Live the King

Chapter 1: The Anatolian war.

    2-10-20 - King Alexander is not bitten by a monkey, which causes his death from sepsis a few days later. This means that the Greek states doesn't see the return of the exiled King Constantine, the following dismissal of many veteran generals and loss of western support. 

    25-10-20 – The Greek election sees Venizelos's Liberal Party returned to power with a clear majority of the popular vote ~410,000 compared to 310,000 for the main opposition party, which backed the deposed King Constantine. More importantly the Liberals gained a clear if relatively narrow majority in Parliament, 183 seats to 165. [This and the continued survival of King Alexander meant there was no referendum on the return of the former King Alexander. That was followed by the allies cutting financial and military aid to Greece and also King Alexander sacked many military officers and others resigned].

    Dec 20 – The Greeks receive a check in their advance at the 1st Battle of Inonu but respond quickly with more forces and defeat the Turks in the 2nd battle three weeks later. [OTL the single Greek division was defeated in the 1st battle and a larger force defeated in a 2nd battle in March which boosted Turkish morale. It also prompted allied proposals to modify the Treaty of Sevres which was rejected by both sides. Here this doesn't happen. ].

    June 1921 – The Greeks successfully break the Turkish defences on the Afyonkarahisar-Eskishir Line which cuts the major rail links between the coastline and the Turkish heartland. Also in the pursuit they rout much of the Turkish forces, including the capture of general Inonu. [OTL the Greeks won but failed to pursue their defeated enemies. Here their better organisation and morale mean they not only win a little earlier but decisively shatter the Turkish forces.]

    Aug-Sept 1921 – In the bitterly fought battle of Sakarya the Greeks again defeat the weakened Turks, their commander General Kemal being wounded and three days later they capture Konya, the Turkish nationalist capital. After this the allies again call for negotiation to end the fighting and the Greeks are willing but the Turks still refuse. [OTL the Turks were slightly inferior in number and short of weapons while the Greeks were stretching their supply lines. TTL the Turks are markedly weaker and the continued leadership and victories mean the Greek have slightly more men and better morale. As such a Greek defeat, them being unable to force the Turkish defences mean that they have to withdraw and the Turks got a vital breather and morale boost.]

    From this point on the Turks increasingly rely on guerilla and terrorist type operations in Greek controlled area, which often led to harsh retaliation.

    23rd -30th Oct 1921 - The Constantinople Riots. Violent uprising by Turkish mobs in the city see attacks on the Christian minority and also western embassies, businesses and the like. Something like 15000 non-Turks are killed or injured in the early stages before allied forces move in to suppress the riots often with heavy casualties for the riots. Some of the earliest aid comes from elements of General Wrangel's White Russian army, elements of which had been in E Thrace since their withdrawal from Crimea the previous November. There is a lot of destruction and the sacking of the French embassy and killing of most of its staff causes extra outrage in the west and secure their continued support.


    March 22 – Reports of continued maltreatment of the Greek population along the Black Sea coast prompts the Greek occupation of the regions around Sinop and Samsun where many of them live, with British and some French support. Details are widely reported in the western press and further strengthen feelings against the Turks.

    May 22 – The Greeks have had to thin their lines somewhat to do this and a new Turkish offensive is launched near Ankara, although with rail links having been improved and air power helping detect enemy movements plus the fact the Greeks are on the defensive the Turks, despite considerable material aid from the Soviets are poorly equipped and the Greeks hold on after bitter fighting.

    The same month sees French forces from Syria advance into the Alexandretta and Cilicia regions of SE Anatolia. They also started talking with some local Kurdish tribes who were resentful of their treatment by the Turks.

    Those checks and the danger of things collapsing totally were the final straw for the bulk of the nationalists and lead by Kamel they opened negotiations with the western powers to end the conflict. This resulted in the Treaty of Busra in Aug-Sept 1922. By this the following are agreed:
a) Greek control was recognised over most of NW Anatolia with a border on the Meander River up to and including the rail links captured the previous summer up to the region around Izmir. This also gave them control of E Thrace and the straits. They would withdraw from the Ankara region and also the Black Sea coast.

b) France would have a protectorate over Cilicia and Alexandretta and Italy over SW Anatolia, basically south of the Meander from the coast east to Antalya. [Italy has continued its presence in the region because without Constantine returning Greece has not lost western support and also the greater Greek success in the war means holding onto the region has looked more attractive to the Italian government.  This doesn't stop the fall of the government to Mussolini's fascist regime.]

c) There would be a transfer of population with the remaining Greek populations of 'Turkey' who were largely from the Black Sea coast and Cappadocia moving to Greece and the Turks from the Greek controlled area to the new Turkish state. [As OTL the Turks will take a religious definition here where people will be allocated on grounds of religion rather than language or cultural identity, which means a fair number of Turkish speaking Christians will be expelled to Greece. Greece will be a bit more tolerant OTL as it has more lands and give the choice to most Greek speaking Muslims as to stay or go to Turkey. Also recognising their usefulness it will invite Wrangel's veterans to accept Greek citizenship and land grants in NW Anatolia and many will do so.]  All in all this saw about 600,000 people sent to Greece and nearly three times that under to Turkey.

    The Turkish state had already had to give up parts of the Yerevan province it had taken from the short lived Armenian state, transferring them to the new Armenian SSR in return for Soviet aid. [Basically here the Soviets get back a bit of Armenia as the Turkish bargining position is far weaker than OTL].

    Finally a period of peace settles over Anatolia, or at least in the western region.

    Basically finally putting together a short TL, which at a later stage one of you may identify later on.   Got a few more chapters to come.

  

Nice stevep , so is this Greece trying to do the Greater Greece (Megali Idea)

  Not so much trying as succeeding.   Think with this butterfly they have a much better chance and its all fairly reasonable.  Not sure about the alternative election result on 25-10-20 as OTL while the Liberals won the election vote by 1% they lost the seats by a large amount.  However for the sake of the scenario I'm assuming that Alexander's survival prevents the unification of the opposition.

  Of course they still have to face the rest of the century and only got rough guidelines till ~45.

[stevep]

   Afraid I've been very lazy but finally got the 2nd chapter put together.

----

Chap 2: The Rise of the King

   Greece in 1922 was victorious in war and had greatly increased its land area and considerably its population but it faced a number of problems.

a) Politically there were deep divisions, compounded both by the split in the royalist camp between the current king Alexander and his father, the former king Constantine, deposed in 1917, with most royalists being more loyal to Constantine than his 2nd son. Similarly while Venizelos dominated the Liberal and sometimes republican element his increasingly dictatorial style was resented by some. Furthermore there was the question of not only settling the new Ionian lands but also of the absorbing the substantial Greek populations in those lands who's views might differ from those of 'old' Greece. Not to mention the small but important numbers of White Russians who took up the offer of lands in Anatolia and the also small number of Greek speaking Muslims who decided to stay in Greece rather than move to Turkey.

b) Related to this was the language question, as to whether the national language would be the Demotic version spoken by the vast bulk of the Greek population or the Katharevousa [purified] form preferred by the educated elite and the Orthodox church. Government documents and newspapers were usually published in the latter form, which few ordinary Greeks could read. The situation was so bad that a translation of the New Testament into demotic prompted riots in Athens. [Although the victory of Venizelos's government in the 1920 elections was to be important in maintaining the progress of Demotic speak in the formal education system rather than the backlash that occurred OTL between 1920-22.]

c) Another issue of some debate was what would be the capital. Athens had been the capital since the forming of the modern independent state but it was now the 3rd largest city after Constantinople and Smyrna and the former, as the previous capital of the Byzantium empire also had huge potential prestige. Also both of those newly reclaimed cities had much greater economic hinterland.

d) Furthermore the expanded Greece had a number of potential enemies. Its defeated rivals, Bulgaria and Turkey had lost land and were bitter at this. Communist Russia was also hostile because of the refuge giving to White refugees. Furthermore Italy, which had the Dodecanese Is and SW Anatolia south of the Meander as well as designs on Corfu and both had interests in southern Albania.


   The position of King Alexander in his early years was very weak, being little more than a puppet of Venizelos's government. When he had been in Paris during the peace conferences he hadn't even been allowed to talk by telephone with his mother, who with his father and elder brother were in exile in France.

   This was further weakened by his determination to marry Aspasia Manos, a commoner and daughter of an army colonel, Petros Manos, which was opposed by his family and much of the establishment. Even Venizelos, initially opposed the marriage as he thought it would be enable Alexander to loosen the PM's grip on him by enabling him to contact his family via the colonel. The marriage was initially done in secret because of the opposition to it and when details were leaked shortly afterwards she was forced into exile. The two only got together during the peace conference, which became a belated honeymoon for the couple. She was finally allowed back into Greece in the summer of 1920, only a few months before Alexander's OTL death.

   Things started to change on the 25th March 1921 with the birth of the couple's 1st child, their daughter Sophia. [OTL the child was named Alexandra after her dead father, but here with him still alive she was named after the king's mother.] The fact that the child was a girl calmed tensions as the question of the status of a son would have complicated matters but it did make the couple start thinking of the future of their family.

   Also during this period the family were able to make some visits to Anatolia although Venizelos continued to refuse the king any formal role, especially not in the army. However they visited Smyrna and some of the refugee camps for Greeks fleeing the fighting further east. Both gained some publicity calling for more aid for those people Alexander was able to become the head of a charity calling for international aid which attracted funds and also raised their profile.

   Those visits were stopped in October, when with the chaos in Constantinople causing concern there was an attempted assassination of the Aspasia by a Turk while she was visiting Bursa. This prompted a nasty anti-Turkish riot and also gave Venizelos an excuse to ban any future visits on the grounds of safety. Aspasia's popularity received a further boost when it is announced the following month that she is pregnant again. Their 1st son, Alexander, is born in May 1922, sees widespread celebration, merged with that resulting from the final ending of the war and the victorious peace terms obtained.

   This does again raise questions of the succession as originally the scandal over the marriage meant Aspasia wasn't given the title of queen and there was doubt over whether the couple's children would inherit the throne, given the royalists still largely supported his deposed father Constantine and his elder brother George. However there was a small but growing band of support for Alexander aided a number of the military, an increasing number of the ordinary population and also some of the exiled White Russians who were settling in Greek Anatolia.

   Two events in 1923 brought things to a head. In March the exiled Constantine died and members of the family in exile recognised Alexander's older brother George as the rightful king. Supporters of his claim came out onto the streets in Athens and other areas of 'old' Greece, prompting clashes with their opponents. This angered Venizelos and he supported moves to confirm that the younger Alexander would be his fathers heir. Reaction to George's claim was far more muted in northern Greece, the islands andAnatolia which saw counter-demonstrations, sometimes in favour of Venizelos but especially in Anatolia in favour of the popular Alexander.

   Later in the year the government sought to confirm the domination of the Demotic version Greek language in education. Already fairly dominant in primary education it was still challenged at higher levels by the Katharevousa version, which was still prominent in higher education and government use. However this was deeply opposed by many people, especially in Anatolia who spoke Demotic and saw no reason they or their children should be forced to learn a new and radically different version of the language. In response to the issue Venizelos put forward laws to make Demotic the common language for all levels of education and also government use. More conservative elements, including the church and the exiled royals opposed this and supported the continued use of Katharevousa. Alexander was persuaded by supporters and especially his wife to come out in support of Demotic causing a new split with the older royalists and elements of the church but this was widely popular with the ordinary people.

   In 1925 Venizelos won another election aided by the divided opposition but less than 45% of the overall vote. However there was growing concern in many quarters about his increasingly autocratic rule and more and more groups were becoming disastisfied at his continued dominance of the country.

   Things came to a head in 1928 when reports of corruption in the government including some of his important supporters and after heated debates he had to call a new election and a coalition of modern liberals and royalists won a majority, forcing him to resign. The king as a popular figure and symbol of unity for most Greeks managed to gain a much freer hand and with his family, now including his 2nd son George and younger sisters Aspasia and Helen were active socially as well as in many bids to create a sense of national unity and help many of the poorer people as well as boosting the settlement of Anatolia.

[lordroel]

Sept 22, 2018 17:01:05 GMT stevep said:

   Afraid I've been very lazy but finally got the 2nd chapter put together.

No problem stevep, nice to see a update.

[stevep]

Chap 3: - Between the wars. 1922-1940:

   During the 1920's Greece suffers problems with the absorption of a large number of refugees but with less people to absorb [compared to OTL] and rich new territories they see fairly steady economic growth. This is helped by the general economic prosperity in the 1920's and the rich agricultural lands of western Anatolia, which along with the commercial importance of the Smyrna region and the strategic importance of the straits provides for a expanding economy and general improvement in living standards for all.

   This was also helped by good relations with Britain and, for most of the period both France and what became the kingdom of Yugoslavia. Greece, although still predominantly an agricultural state also saw a steady growth in industry, albeit still at best probably a 3rd rate military power. It also saw steady educational reforms.

   Progress was hindered by the Great Depression which started in 1929 but while some aspects of trade declined a reasonably stable home economy meant it avoided the worst effects that occurred in many neighbouring countries. With a relatively stable economy and a popular monarchy helping to secure stability it was one of only two countries in eastern Europe to stay a democratic country.

   The country did have security concerns, with bad relations with Turkey to the east, Bulgaria to the north and from ~1930 deteriorating relations with Italy while Soviet Russia stayed icy. However this was balanced by a close alliance with Britain and friendly ones with France and Yugoslavia. Also while they seemed to be largely surrounded by foes those were also limited.

   Turkey until the establishment of a military government in 1933 was rived by internal strife as assorted groups struggled for dominance. The military secular nationalists struggled with assorted Muslim groups of greater or less conservatism, some of which favoured a revived Ottoman sultanate whereas others did not. Also another secular group favoured closer relations with, or even sub-ordinance to the Soviet Union. Furthermore, while the Armenians and Greeks had been killed or expelled in the SE there was a substantial Kurdish minority. On top of all this was the task of incorporating nearly two million Turks who had been expelled from either the expanded Greek state or in markedly smaller numbers from Bulgaria, French Syria or Soviet Armenia.

   All in all there was more than a decade of greater or lesser chaos and sometime large scale violent at times verging on civil war. This was compounded by the Antalya crisis in 1926-28 when the Italians objecting to sometimes violent opposition from the Turkish population of the region to Italian rule and increasing attempts to bring in Italian settlers. Accusing the Turkish state, such as it was, of actively supporting such violence Italy launched a series of attacks into Turkish territory as well as harsh suppression of their own Muslim subjects. For a while there is concern that Italy will itself size another chunk of the rump Turkish state but after some bloody fighting, with the Turks again getting military aid from the Soviets, an Italian withdrawal from those gains is negotiated but also many of the Turks of the Antalya region are expelled in turn.

   Until about this point relations between Greece and Italy are fairly well. However Mussolini makes continued comments about restoring the Roman empire and while the Greek minority in Antalya had gained a fair degree of security, with the Muslims deported they also come under pressure. Furthermore Italy has interests in Corfu and also in Albania, the southern parts of which have a Greek minority and where Greece also has designs. Coupled with this is the continued Italian presence on Rhodes. As such there is a cooling of relations between Rome and Athens from 1930 especially.

   The Soviet Union is seen as less of a threat, although an attempted assassination on the king and his heir in 1932 is thought by many to be organised by local communists with Moscow's support. However especially after Stalin's rise to power it largely turns inwards and is seen by many as a brutal but distant threat.

   Bulgaria, having lost its own Aegean coastline and with claims as well on neighbouring lands under Greek [and also Yugoslav] control is a potential threat but is too small in itself to be a serious rival, especially while it lacks support for other powers.

   Greece in turn looks towards closer contacts with Yugoslavia, France and most of all Britain to provide diplomatic support and boost its security. Some of those aspects fail such as the idea that two Iron Duke battleships and the battlecruiser Tiger, which Britain is to give up under the 1930 London Naval Treaty, be modernised and sold at a bargin price to Greece. This falls through due to objections from the US but Greece in the period 1928-37 buys no less than 9 cruisers and 28 destroyers as well as subs and mine-layers from Britain, largely rebuilding its fleet. In the process also helping maintain Britain's shipyards during the hungry years of the early 30's especially. Greece also purchases some a/c and miliatry vehicles, again largely from Britain. While still not a top rank military power and lacking modern capital ships by the end of the 30's it is clearly the 3rd most powerful naval power in the Med, after France and Italy. [Helped in part by the collapse of Spain into civil war.

   In some ways this was strengthened by the darkening political climate in the late 30's as the fascists in Germany and Italy grow more strident in their language and demands and numerous smaller countries fall into dictatorships. Purchases from Britain decline somewhat because Britain's demands for its own rebuilding forces consume virtually all its capacity and for the 1st time the US also starts making military sales to Greece, albeit still some way behind the UK.

   While the navy is important, given Greece's long coastline and active merchant marines the army is also slowly built up, along with defences on the borders with Turkey and Bulgarian and from 1933 with Italian Antalya. New defences are also started in 1939 on the borders with Albania after Italy formally annexes that state.

 

  Another quick update on this short timeline.  Next chapter will be the early stages of Greece in WWI.

[futurist]

Great TL, Steve!

[stevep]

  Well it took longer than I planned but finally got up the energy to do some number crunching and get the next chapter out.  Or at least some of it as the damned thing grew like topsy so this is only about half of what I was considering.

Chap 4: - Conflict with Italy and Turkey Part 1. Nov-Dec 1940:

   Greece feels fairly secure, despite growing tensions until war breaks out over Poland, which cases some increased spending on organising and training reserve units. It is after the sudden fall of France and Italy's joining Germany in conflict with Britain and its allies that things really start looking dangerous.

   Greece had not established heavy defences on any border because so many were at risk. [i.e. not a massive expenditure on the Metaxas Line in TTL.] Instead from 33 as instability grew and especially from 1937 money had been spent on upgrading the army and supporting forces, as well as the navy and a small air force. Much of the new equipment was from Britain, although some problems occurred after March 39 as the rate of British rearmament increased and hence sales to Greece and other 3rd countries were delayed a bit.

   Even so with a larger population and greater wealth and stability Greece when fully mobilsed could assemble 26 Inf divisions¹, 1 Cav Div and 4 Arm Brigs. The latter were an attempt to supply a mobile force for flexibility and were also a favour of the king. One was deployed in Thessay, one near Constantinople and two in western Anatolia, near Busra and Smyrna.

   Despite the fact it was already at war with Britain, which Mussolini was confident would still make peace he also desired to take land from Greece and puppetise what was left. Therefore, he ordered a build-up in Italian controlled territories, both Albania and Antalya, alongside his 'invasion' of Egypt. [As OTL this moves only a short way past the Libyan border before fortifying positions because with only foot infantry supplies were insufficient.

   Hence on the 28th October 1940 Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Athens which would have made it a puppet state and seen a number of regions annexed openly Italy. Even before the deadline expired or the Greek rejection had reached him Italian forces were attacking across the borders. From Albania 8 Inf divisions, a Mtn div and the Centauro Arm Div attacked the Epirus region of NW Greece while another 10 Inf Divs attacked from Atalya towards Smyrna.²

   However Mussolini hasn't been totally reckless seeking to persuade Bulgaria and Turkey to also attack Greece, albeit with relatively little warning. The Bulgarians as OTL refuse to do so citing their army not being ready for action and concerns about their other borders. There was some evidence that they were also concerned that such a move was happening without German support and hence it was not wise to risk upsetting them.

   The Turks had some doubts as well. They knew that after the defeats two decades before and with the internal instability that had followed their military was weak. Both because much of it was largely still equipped with WWI arms, many of them poorly supported and because the internal divisions, which still continued to some degree meant that the army was politically divided and a fair number of officers were in position more for their political and factional influence rather than their ability. Also they were doubtful that Italy would seek to grab all the spoils after a victory, or at least increase further their Anatolian possessions. Some also argued that this might be a feint by Italy to lure them into a war simply to distract Greece. However the chance to regain some of their lost lands, many of the population had been expelled from was too great while the idea of a war against Greece was seen as a way of uniting the country. Hence Ankara replied it would attack, although the Turks left silent that they would wait a couple of days until they were sure that Italy was actually attacking and to hopefully draw off Greek forces before their attack. Turkey however started to mobilise its reserves, which of course raised some concern in Greece.

   The Italian attacks quickly ran into problems as many units weren't fully equipped and leadership and reliability of equipment was often lacking. On the NW front the difficult terrain made attacks against well dug in defenders difficult and the Italians found the front line Greek forces already moblised, with more on the way. As such attacks stalled, often with heavy losses, Initially there were only a couple of divisions facing them, along with two independent brigades but they were quickly reinforced and the Italians found their attacks proving futile.

   In Anatolia the terrain was also rugged and much of the border was along the Meander River, which caused further problems. The Greeks initially only had 3 divisions active along here, not quite at full strength but they were quickly reinforced by two more. Things changed on the 4th November when 12 Turkish divisons attacked Greek Anatolia with only two divisions and a couple of assembling brigades in their way. Fortunately two divisions heading for the Italian front were hurriedly recalled and the 1st Arm Brg [Alexander] and 2nd [Leonidas] which had been left in reserve were also pushed forward, On the 8th the government also decided to order the 4th [Constantine] brigade and the 14th Inf division from Constantinople to help as well.

   As soon as the Italians attacked Churchill [assuming minimal butterflies for simplicity] offered British military support and again when it became clear that the Turks had also joined the conflict. However after some discussion the Greek government declined such help as it might prompt German intervention and they feared that while they were hopefully they could hold the Italians.

   This seemed to be the best bet as in November three quick clashes, near Ousakeion [Turkish Usak] , Nicomedia [Turkish Izmit] and Inonu [Turkish name, not sure of what the Greeks might have called it] saw the ramshackle Turkish units heavily defeated, having no response to the Greek mobile forces and largely destroying 6 of the Turkish divisions, forcing the others to withdraw.

  In turn however this had pulled forces from the Menader line and the Italians had forced a crossing at Tralles [Turkish Aydin] and were threatening a breakout. This actually started out on the 24th but fortunately the arrival of the Leonidas brigade on the 25th and the Alexander brigade on the 28th helped turn the Italian advance into a rout, largely destroying two Italian divisions.

   Both sides now needed a breather as they regrouped. The Turks were organising more units, albeit even more poorly equipped and they were to have some troubles with supplies. [It was later found out that Stalin, fearful that the attack on Greece was backed by Germany and an attempt both to control the straits and to pull Turkey into the Axis camp ordered a cut in military supplies to Turkey, which further compounded their problems in assembling new units. The Italians were also worried by their position in the east but the Greeks had also suffered losses and they were concerned about how weakly they had left the border with Bulgaria defended.

   Furthermore things were happening at sea. On the night of the 11-12th Nov a British air strike hit the Italian naval base at Taranto. Two elderly battleships, Conti di Cavour and Caio Duilio were sunk in shallow water and never fully refloated and the Giulio Cesare damaged but later repaired. Also a number of cruisers and destroyers were also damaged. This reduced the naval threat to the allies in the Med. However they found out only shortly afterwards they had missed the key units. The two new BBs Littoiro and Vittorio Veneto were not present and so escaped as did 6 heavy cruisers and twelve destroyers. This was because Mussolini, worried by early problems in Atalya had ordered a large convoy of reinforcements sent and they have sailed only the previous day. This included the Ariete Arm Div, the Triese Mot Div and two further Inf Divs. [This also means that the en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Strait_of_Otranto_(1940) the following evening didn't occur as the transporters involed in that mission are TTL involved in this convoy.]

   When this convoy is spotted off the Greek coast it causes some panic especially as intel reports some details of the units involved. Unfortunately the Greek navy can't face such a force and it lands its troops and some supplies at Antalya and the Greeks also heard that the Italians have removed a Inf Div from Rhodes, to also reinforce their next attack.

   The allies do manage some revenge when the force returns as a successful ambush, the Battle of Kithira sees Greek the Greek navy along with the British Med fleet force a combat and while the elderly BB Ramilles is damaged and the allies lose three cruisers and see others damaged the combined forces manage to sink the Vittorio Veneto and the heavy cruisers Bolzano, Fiume and Pola as well as damaging several other ships and sinking most of the transports. To add insult to injury for the Italians the Littoiro runs into a minefield and is damaged for three months off the Otranto.

   The additional forces and the fact another wave of 14 Turkish divisions along with reports of Bulgarian mobilisation causes great concern in Greece and the government reverses its stance on British aid, only to be informed that the British are just commencing an attack on the Italian forces that have 'invaded' Egypt. [Here Operation Compass is started several weeks earlier in part because of pressure from Churchill and in part because the situation is seen as more critical.

   Operation Compass, carried out by the 7th Armoured division and the 4th Indian Motorised Division is an outstanding success. In less than a week they destroyed 4 divisions and drove the Italians from Egyot. However they were stopped from advancing into Libya and attacking Bardia. The decision had been taken in London that aid must be sent to Greece³.




  Footnotes:-

  1 - This is somewhat larger than OTL details which seems to suggest ~13 Inf and 1 Cav fighting the Italians in Mar 41 and other, albeit smaller forces in the Metaxas line [Wiki gives 6 Inf Div for this] and presumably elsewhere in Greece. i.e. doubt that Athens, Corfu which had been threatened by Italy earlier and Crete and the other islands were undefended. I guestimated that the total available was ~22 Inf and 1 Cav divs so have given a 20% increase in the total infantry and have added the 4 Arm brigades. With spending on forces rather than defences, because Greece doesn't know which direction a threat might come from they are somewhat better equipped, rather than reliant largely on ~WWI equipment.

The 4 Arm Brigades are actually pretty weak, consisting of only two regiments each, one of tanks, and one motorised infantry regiment which includes a motorised artillery section. Those are partly also because of the more general nature of the threat and the greater wealth of the Greece state meaning some use of machines to replace manpower. Also King Alexander was interested in motor vehicles and along with a couple of army officers were very impressed by a demonstration of the experimental British mobile force during a visit during the 1920s'. The tanks are fairly old and light although the 1st, Leonidas brigade, deployed near Smyrna includes some newer British tanks.

One point to note is that while the Italian divisions had a two brigade structure the Greece had a three division structure which means individually their about 50% stronger – which was the case OTL as well.


  2 - This is slightly larger than the OTL Italian attack which had two less Inf units attacking from Albania and of course none from Italian Atalya as that didn't exist. I'm actually assuming Italy has no additional forces compared to OTL but has more units in the initial attack. This seems reasonable as a massively overconfident Mussolini actually allowed 300,000 troops and 600,000 reservists to go home to bring in the harvest and OTL Italy sent additional divisions to Albania. This included 6 in Nov, 4 in Dec, 6 in Jan 41 and 4 more by March 41, totalling 3 Mtn and 17 Inf reinforcements.

Also assume that the Italian forces in Libya [14 Inf Div] amd E Africa [2 Inf and 5 colonial Inf Divs] are as OTL. Hence you have a garrison in Atalya with some reinforcements in the months before the attack, although disrupted by British subs but less left in Italy itself. Similarly assuming that british forces in the ME region are pretty much as historical.



   3 - The cutting short of Operation Compass means Italian losses are markedly less. However its another blow to their morale and it does free up British forces earlier for intervention in Greece. Also because of the shortages of forces the 4th Indian Div isn't sent to east Africa, the attacks on the Italians there being postponded. However there are substantial advantages for the allies. Without the advance the defensive line is much more secure and the units receive much less wear and tear damage.  Of course there is another big advantage for the allies that the people of this timeline would never know but we would, although not possibly obvious at this stage.

  Steve

[lordroel]

Oct 9, 2018 16:54:42 GMT stevep said:

  Well it took longer than I planned but finally got up the energy to do some number crunching and get the next chapter out.  Or at least some of it as the damned thing grew like topsy so this is only about half of what I was considering.

Nice number crunching stevep.

[stevep]

  Since I have the details fairly fresh in my head here's the next chapter.

Chap 5: - Conflict with Italy and Turkey Part 2. Jan-Mar 1941:

   The Greek position looks precarious by the start of 41. While the NW border looks fairly secure in Anatolia their forces await a new attack from both the Turks, slowly assembling their new forces and the Italians, bloodied but with reinforcements including motorised/armoured units that can counter the Greek advantage. Also while the Italians in the west can replace losses, albeit slowly when it comes to material the Greeks are unable to really rest troops or replace materials. Britain could in theory provide most of its needs but is short of materials as it slowly rebuilds its own armies after the disaster in France and also has the problem of transporting any such stockpiles from Britain around Africa to Greece. Furthermore the transfer of forces from Egypt has left that vital area sparcely defended, relying on the poor performance and logistics of the Italians.

   The initial British force arriving in Smyrna in late December is the 4th Indian Div, and the 4th armoured brigade, leaving only the 6th Australian Div, the 5th Indian and the 7th armoured brigade in India although other forces are being assembled. However with the immediate danger of invasion disappearing from Britain and the crisis in both Greece and the ME the region is the top priority for reinforcements, even through they would now have to go around Africa. Also the situation in Malta is getting desperate. The major reductions to the Italian fleet may help in this but whether the island can be relieved is a matter of concern.

   They have barely arrived when both Italians and Turks, having squabbled over the timing, finally launch new offensives combined with a new attack from Albania.

   In the north west the Greeks have only 6 Inf Divs and a Cav Div as they have had to commit forces to the Bulgarian border, although so far the latter do not move from neutrality. However despite facing 17 enemy Divs the defensive terrain, the bad weather and the fact a number of those Italian units have already seen heavy combat in previous attacks means the Greeks hold and inflict heavy losses, although they suffer some themselves and are running low on supplies.

   In Anatolia things are more frantic. The Italians make an attack higher up the Meander valley, surprising the Greeks while having a feint attack at Tralles. In desperate actions the Greek 17th Inf Div fights to prevent a breakthrough until the arrival of elements of the 4th Indian on the 9th and counter-attacks, joined by the rest of the division and the 4th Arm Brg the following day. With the Greek 19th Inf also arriving on the 12th the Italian forces are held and in heavy fighting the poor quality of their armour again proves fatal in the face especially of the British Matilda's. By the 19th the crisis is over and on the 21st the bulk of three Italian divisions are forced to surrender including the recently arrived Ariete Arm Div and the Triese Mot Div. Coupled with losses from accompanying units and those attacking at Tralles the Italians have seen the core of their forces destroyed and the Greeks can now feel some relief.

   Further north the Turks have been slowly advancing. Three Greek divisions and the two Arm Brgs have been fighting a delaying action, aided by the poor quality of the Turkish forces and the assistance of local militias, who hold out at Nicomedia and Inonu. Now however the allies are able to turn on them, the British forces and the Greek 2nd Arm Brig smashing two divisions pinned by a Greek unit near Ousakeion then drive north towards Inonu isolating 5 other divisions and relieving the city. The isolated divisions are forced to retreat, chased by the Greek 1st and 2nd Arm Brig and some local cavalry irregulars, inflicting heavy casualties and forcing the units to abandon their already limited artillery and baggage train. Meanwhile the British forces push on to Nicomedia, helping to destroy two more Turkish units and forcing the rest of the Turkish units to retire in some disarray.

   By the end of January the fronts are reasonable quite again but the allies are taking a more needed breather and worrying about declining supplies and manpower. The Italians in Antalya are now seen as a minimal threat but still have up to 5 divisions of Inf as well as a brigade on Rhodes, although they are thought to be short on supplies themselves. Similarly in Epirus although the Greeks have won and inflicted heavy losses on the Italians they have suffered themselves and are also increasingly short of munitions.

   February sees relative quiet as all sides are preparing for the next round. There are two points of conflict. At sea the Greeks win a morale boosting victory off Milos on the 14th when an Italian attempt to push a convoy through to Antalya is intercepted by their navy and while the HC Thebes is sunk the Italians lose two of their own HCs, three DDs and 4 of the 7 transport and cargo ships. Most noticeably the nature of the ships, bringing supplies and fuel rather than more men highlights the shortages the Italian forces in Antalya are suffering.

  This is highlighted from the 18th when a hurriedly organised attack, crossing the upper Meander takes the Italians by surprise and destroys their 46th Div, then the Alexander Brig, backed rapidly by the 4th Indian and the British 4th Arm Brig manage to force their way through to the coast just west of Antalya, capturing another brigade and much of the Italian stockpiles then push west.

   With the position in Antalya looking on the verge of collapse Mussolini urges new offensives to regain the imitative and also his prestige. However his generals make clear that the next wage of attacks can't occur before the start of March so a fighting retreat towards the Marmaris peninsula, with forces pulling back from opposite Tralles. Shortages of fuel along with concerns about their western flank means that the allied mobile forces aren't able to cut them off but by early March the Greek 19th Div controls the neck of the peninsula, supported by a couple of units of artillery. With two weakened divisions looking westward to guard the new gain against any Turkish attack the allies have pulled back their mobile forces.

   From the 3rd to the 7th March Italian forces again move onto the offensive. There is a new set of attacks in Epirus and the units on the Marmaris are also ordered to attack, although their commander ignores the orders and starts slowly evacuating men to Rhodes.

   Further south Italian forces again cross the Egyptian border, this time being more menacing as it includes 6 Infantry divsision, 3 of them Blackshirts but also the Centauro Arm Div, the 1st Mobile Div and the 102 Trento Motorised Div, giving them a mobile arm.

   Even further south the forces in E Africa, having raised 5 more colonial divisions to give a total of 10 plus 2 Italian divisions somewhat reluctantly send 1 Italian and 4 Colonial Divs NW into the Sudan. Their movement is slow due to the terrain and the fact they are totally foot infantry as well as the relatively poor logistical support and morale of the colonial forces.

   Mussolini is seeking to win a big victory in seizing Egypt, which he knows is only thinly defended as well as finally make progress in Greece before the Germans intervene as he has heard reports that Hitler is considering helping out his ally, especially after the British entry into Anatolia raises concerns about his perennial worry of the Romanian oilfields.

   Fortunately for the allies some reinforcements have arrived. With the arrival of the 12 Arm Brig the 7th Arm Div is back up to full strength while the 9th Australian and 5th Indian are also recent additions in Egypt while the 2nd NZ is due to arrive any time soon. Also with the attack into Italian E Africa cancelled for the moment and the threats from multiple fronts Churchill manages to get the S Africans to remove their restriction about their units only being used south of the equator. As such the 1st SA, already in Kenya will be moved north to Egypt to shortly be replaced by the 2nd SA.

   Some of those units were to move onto Greece but the current situation means that is postponed. Also supplies are a problem.

   Meanwhile, with continuing concerns about the northern border the Greek government in late February starts a programme of defensive construction. Nothing massive, just what can be done with manual labour. A position in front of Salonika to guard against a drive west from Bulgaria and two shorter ones to the east. Some defensive positions are started at the neck of the Gallipoli peninsula and also, with greater emphasis on the tongue of E Thrace that lead to Constantinople. About 30 miles wide attempts were made to provide defensive positions and barrier to enemy movement. [Must admit I'm replying on an old atlas here as can't seem to find a map of the area with an actual scale on it, let alone any real terrain details. ] they are not only concerned about Bulgarian but also some reports of an increasing probability of attack from Germany.

   The saving grace for the Greeks and British was that the Asian front was quiet and the Turks were actually considering signing a ceasefire with the allies. This gave them a pause while the war was going on elsewhere.

   In Epirus the Greeks hold again, but are wearing thin and it is necessary to swap out three of the exhausted divisions with new ones from elsewhere in Greece to try and allow them to rest and regroup although there were few reserves left. Italian losses are however also heavy and their morale is faltering.

   In Africa the British have the vital advantage of interior lines, aided also by the railway between Alexandria and Khartoum. Coupled with the massive advantage of fully mobile forces. As such while the 6th Aus div had been raiding the Italians advancing from the west to delay their advance and the newly arrived 9th Aus div joins the 7th Aus in garrisoning the capital and delta region the 7th Arm and the 5th Ind moved west. From the 17th -28th March they linked up with the 6th Aus and again used their mobility and the relative weakness of the Italian mobile units to isolated and destroy the Italian force piecemeal. The two new units reach Misheifa then drive north, catching the 64th Inf and 2nd BS divs on the march and largely scattering them within a couple of hours. This prompts the Italian mobile units to about turn to seek combat and protect their own supply lines. However the British have air superiority, albeit with small forces and more confidence. While the rest of the Italian infantry further west hunker down, fearing attack this leave O'Connor to organise a drive east against them while the 6th Aus strikes from the east. Again the Italian tanks prove fragile and their command and control collapses. In 48 bloody hours the Italians lose most of their tanks and start to retreat.

   During the next week the 3 'British' divisions chase the retreating Italians, causing many to surrender as they lack the mobility to get away and large numbers surrender. In all while the remnants of the 3 mobile units largely get away they need major efforts to rebuild them. Only the 62nd Inf and parts of the 1st BS divs reach Bardia where they join two other divisions. Churchill and Wavell would both like to besige the place and force their surrender but events elsewhere makes that impossible. Hence the British withdraw again back towards the Nile.

   At the end of March the 7th Aus is starting to entrain for passage to Khartoum where local forces approaching as they fight to slow the advance of the Italians who have been slowly struggling through the desert toward it and the Nile. They are to be joined by the 5th Indian once that has returned from the western desert and a couple of armoured brigades.

   A few days earlier on the 275th March the Yugoslav regent, Prince Paul and PM Cvetkovic reluctantly signs Yugoslavs adherence to the Tripartite Pact. This is deeply unpopular with many of the Serbian military especially and two days later a military coup overthrows the government and the 17 year old prince Peter is declared of age and the king.

   Hitler sees this as a personal insult and immediately orders that the planned attack on Greece be extended to include an attack to crush Yugoslavia. The storm clouds gather quickly.

++++++

 

  I hope people think I've got things reasonably balanced.  The Greeks are doing very well and the British are punching well above their weight.  However this is partly based on historical factors with the Greeks managing to hold the Italians and being a bit better equipped and slightly larger in total forces than OTL and their reserves are wearing down, especially in the west.  In the desert the Italian units were of poor quality and their colonial ones even weaker and relatively small British forces did do spectacularly both in OTL Operation Compass and in E Africa.    However next turn they meet much more formidable opponents.

[lordroel]

Oct 9, 2018 20:51:05 GMT stevep said:

  Since I have the details fairly fresh in my head here's the next chapter.

Chap 5: - Conflict with Italy and Turkey Part 2. Jan-Mar 1941:
However next turn they meet much more formidable opponents.

Good update stevep

And yes i think you are right, the Germans where always a better opponent to face then the Italians.