How Communists in Germany Allied with Nazis to Destroy Democracy

[spanishspy]

Interesting and sobering article about party leaders losing touch with the people.

[stevep]

Oct 2, 2018 21:11:01 GMT spanishspy said:

Interesting and sobering article about party leaders losing touch with the people.

  I suspect it might be more about them believing their own propaganda, especially about the inevitability of their victory and hence they saw the SDP as a greater threat than the Nazis.  Bloody idiots.

[spanishspy]

Oct 2, 2018 21:58:45 GMT stevep said:

Oct 2, 2018 21:11:01 GMT spanishspy said:

Interesting and sobering article about party leaders losing touch with the people.

  I suspect it might be more about them believing their own propaganda, especially about the inevitability of their victory and hence they saw the SDP as a greater threat than the Nazis.  Bloody idiots.

Agreed - it takes a lot of arrogance to see Social Democrats as worse than Nazis.

[stevep]

Oct 3, 2018 2:03:49 GMT spanishspy said:

Oct 2, 2018 21:58:45 GMT stevep said:

  I suspect it might be more about them believing their own propaganda, especially about the inevitability of their victory and hence they saw the SDP as a greater threat than the Nazis.  Bloody idiots.

Agreed - it takes a lot of arrogance to see Social Democrats as worse than Nazis.

  Worse as in being a greater threat to their own desires for power.  Which unfortunately is the sort of mistake many extreme [and some not so extreme] groups think.

[futurist]

Oct 2, 2018 21:58:45 GMT stevep said:

Oct 2, 2018 21:11:01 GMT spanishspy said:

Interesting and sobering article about party leaders losing touch with the people.

  I suspect it might be more about them believing their own propaganda, especially about the inevitability of their victory and hence they saw the SDP as a greater threat than the Nazis.  Bloody idiots.

This sort of reminds me of how Stalin thought that he made a brilliant decision by conducting the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Hitler instead of allying with Britain and France. Stalin thought that the Western Great Powers would bleed themselves dry and thus make the Soviet Union the big winner at the end of the war. Then France fell and the Soviet Union itself got invaded by Nazi Germany. Ouch.

[stevep]

Oct 3, 2018 23:34:23 GMT futurist said:

Oct 2, 2018 21:58:45 GMT stevep said:

  I suspect it might be more about them believing their own propaganda, especially about the inevitability of their victory and hence they saw the SDP as a greater threat than the Nazis.  Bloody idiots.

This sort of reminds me of how Stalin thought that he made a brilliant decision by conducting the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Hitler instead of allying with Britain and France. Stalin thought that the Western Great Powers would bleed themselves dry and thus make the Soviet Union the big winner at the end of the war. Then France fell and the Soviet Union itself got invaded by Nazi Germany. Ouch.

  Well it may not have seemed such a bad idea at the time, especially given western unwillingness to meet his demands, such as free passage through Poland in the event of a war with Germany - which the Poles understandable were most unwilling to agree to.  However, while Hitler was stupid to attack while he was still fighting Britain and its allies, Stalin should have been more aware of the dangers of an attack after the fall of France.

[eurowatch]

Oct 4, 2018 14:34:49 GMT stevep said:

Oct 3, 2018 23:34:23 GMT futurist said:

This sort of reminds me of how Stalin thought that he made a brilliant decision by conducting the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Hitler instead of allying with Britain and France. Stalin thought that the Western Great Powers would bleed themselves dry and thus make the Soviet Union the big winner at the end of the war. Then France fell and the Soviet Union itself got invaded by Nazi Germany. Ouch.

  Well it may not have seemed such a bad idea at the time, especially given western unwillingness to meet his demands, such as free passage through Poland in the event of a war with Germany - which the Poles understandable were most unwilling to agree to.  However, while Hitler was stupid to attack while he was still fighting Britain and its allies, Stalin should have been more aware of the dangers of an attack after the fall of France.

Soviet intelligence actually had the initial date for Operation Barbarossa pegged Down pretty accuratly, Thing was that the Germans launched the Balkan campaign which delayed Barbarossa and discredited the NKVD. Stalin may have also been seeking to avoid war as early as 1941 because he believed the army wasn't ready yet.

[futurist]

Oct 4, 2018 14:34:49 GMT stevep said:

Oct 3, 2018 23:34:23 GMT futurist said:

This sort of reminds me of how Stalin thought that he made a brilliant decision by conducting the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Hitler instead of allying with Britain and France. Stalin thought that the Western Great Powers would bleed themselves dry and thus make the Soviet Union the big winner at the end of the war. Then France fell and the Soviet Union itself got invaded by Nazi Germany. Ouch.

  Well it may not have seemed such a bad idea at the time, especially given western unwillingness to meet his demands, such as free passage through Poland in the event of a war with Germany - which the Poles understandable were most unwilling to agree to.  However, while Hitler was stupid to attack while he was still fighting Britain and its allies, Stalin should have been more aware of the dangers of an attack after the fall of France.

To be honest, it really doesn't matter much what Poland, Britain, and France think about letting Soviet troops enter Poland. After all, if Poland gets invaded, the Soviet Union was able to send its troops to Poland without anyone stopping them. The only difference that the M-R Pact made is that, instead of fighting to save Poland, the Soviet Union fought to destroy Poland.

I do agree, though, that with hindsight, Britain and France should have probably agreed to the Soviets' conditions for an alliance. Sure, it could have meant that some Eastern European countries would fall under Communist rule, but that would not have been any worse than real life--where all of Eastern Europe fell under Communist rule. With a Soviet alliance, France might not have fallen and thus the cumulative death toll of World War II could have been significantly reduced.

Also, agreed that Stalin should have been more prepared for an Axis invasion of the Soviet Union after the Fall of France. Personally, in addition to being more prepared for this, I would have also deported all Soviet Jews--or at least all healthy Soviet Jews--to the interior of the Soviet Union before Operation Barbarossa in order to save their lives. Plus, the healthy Jews could have been drafted into the Soviet military or forced to work in Soviet factories during the war--something which would have been to the Soviet Union's advantage.

[Zyobot]

Well this was a terrible judgement call on the KPD's part. Not that I have--or have ever had--socialist sympathies myself, but I honestly expected them to be more upright than this (as a rather uninformed person); apparently not.

I have no clue how they didn't see the Nazi backstab coming; that should've been a given for reasons that are (hopefully) known to the rest of us.

[stevep]

Oct 4, 2018 19:59:35 GMT futurist said:

Oct 4, 2018 14:34:49 GMT stevep said:

  Well it may not have seemed such a bad idea at the time, especially given western unwillingness to meet his demands, such as free passage through Poland in the event of a war with Germany - which the Poles understandable were most unwilling to agree to.  However, while Hitler was stupid to attack while he was still fighting Britain and its allies, Stalin should have been more aware of the dangers of an attack after the fall of France.

To be honest, it really doesn't matter much what Poland, Britain, and France think about letting Soviet troops enter Poland. After all, if Poland gets invaded, the Soviet Union was able to send its troops to Poland without anyone stopping them. The only difference that the M-R Pact made is that, instead of fighting to save Poland, the Soviet Union fought to destroy Poland.

I do agree, though, that with hindsight, Britain and France should have probably agreed to the Soviets' conditions for an alliance. Sure, it could have meant that some Eastern European countries would fall under Communist rule, but that would not have been any worse than real life--where all of Eastern Europe fell under Communist rule. With a Soviet alliance, France might not have fallen and thus the cumulative death toll of World War II could have been significantly reduced.

Also, agreed that Stalin should have been more prepared for an Axis invasion of the Soviet Union after the Fall of France. Personally, in addition to being more prepared for this, I would have also deported all Soviet Jews--or at least all healthy Soviet Jews--to the interior of the Soviet Union before Operation Barbarossa in order to save their lives. Plus, the healthy Jews could have been drafted into the Soviet military or forced to work in Soviet factories during the war--something which would have been to the Soviet Union's advantage.

  I think part of the problem was that the western powers over-estimated both the potential strength of Poland and also their effective strength against Nazi Germany.  After all just about everybody in the west expected a war of attrition before greater western resources meant that Germany was defeated.  The sudden conquest of western Europe was a shock to just about everybody including Stalin who expected and hoped for a such a long war to wear down both groups of 'enemies'.

  Also it would have been politically difficult going to war to protect Poland and agreeing to what would very likely be its occupation by the Soviets at the same time.  Coupled with the fear of communism and the poor performance of the Red Army in a recent clash with the Japanese - I think Zhukov's crushing victory was a bit later - plus reports of the purges the Soviets were viewed as not only an unfriendly force but also an unreliable one.

  In hindsight it may have been a bad move but we would never know.  Also given the Polish fear of both Russia and communism you have the potential danger that if the western powers ignore Polish concerns about Soviet forces being able to enter [invade] Poland the Polish government might decide its better to come to terms with Germany.  [Which again is likely to be a bad move in hindsight but may well not be clear at the time.]