mcnutt
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Post by mcnutt on Oct 10, 2018 15:55:49 GMT
OTL Claus Von Stauffenberg, who had volunteered to assassinate Hitler and then give the signal to being the planned coup, had only time to activate one of the two bombs he brought with him to the meeting, where Hitler would be in attendance. Activating the bomb was difficult for Von Stauffenberg, because he had lost his right hand. He was called into the meeting before he could deal with the second bomb. ITTL he has his aide, who had two good hands, do the bombs. The aide puts them in Stauffenberg’s brief case and takes them to him. Stauffenberg leaves the briefcase with the bombs behind as he leaves the meeting. ITTL he does not leave them next to the heavy wood leg of the table, which OTL cushioned the blast. He sees the explosion destroy the building and correctly assumes that the force of two bombs has killed everyone, including Hitler. The coup fails, the SS arrests the plotters and Heinrich Himmler uses the emergency to take power. This starts a power struggle with the SS cracking down on opponents. This inspires German officers on the Western front to surrender.The most prominent defector is Erwin Rommel. This causes chaos in the German military.The WAllies move quickly by November 17, 1944 they have surrounded Berlin. By December 3, 1944, they have taken Warsaw. Prague falls to the WAllies on December 4, 1944. On December 9, 1944, Himmler is overthrown and executed. The Provisional Government surrenders on December 16, 1944, VE Day. The USSR declares war on Japan on March 16, 1945 and begins their invasion of China. The WAllied European veterans arrive in the Pacific front in April 1945. Okinawa falls on May 22, 1945. Japan suffers even more with the stepped up bombing and blockade, Hirohito surrenders on August 3, 1945. The atom bomb remains a military secret until the Soviets announce they have developed one in 1949. There are other changes. There no occupation zones in Germany. The WAllies set up a joint occupation authority. The Soviets join it. Soviets send their troops to places where they can loot. In 1949, with the creation of the Federal Republic of Germany, the Soviets withdraw their troops like the WAllies. There is no East Germany or Berlin Blockade, Berlin Airlift or Berlin Wall. Beginning in 1949, Germany has its OTL 1990 to the present borders. In 1946, there is a not so velvet divorce, when Soviet occupied Slovakia breaks away from Czechoslavika. Poland is divided between its WAllied and Soviet occupied halts, until East Poland votes to reunite with West Poland in 1990. Czechzia and West Poland are the frontline NATO nations.They are the home to most of the US military bases. If you are the child of a German and an American service veteran, you probably have a different heritage. In 1946,the Soviets expel Jiang’s government which flees Taiwan. This affects American politics. No one asks the question Who lost China? The Soviet occupied People’s Republic of China is a satellite. The Soviets veto the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. The Soviets encourage Deng Xiopeng’s reforms. China’s economy booms. There is no playing the China card. US China relations open up under Reagan, after corporations lobby for the right to cash in on the lucrative China trade.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 10, 2018 20:40:56 GMT
Looks interesting but difficult to read with the wall of text. Can you break it up into paragraphs please? If you had that clear a western victory you might have different borders in the east in that Germany might keep either Pomerania or Silesia say as if their occupied by the western powers as their unlikely to support massive forced population deportations. Which could mean a distinctly smaller Poland as I can't see the Soviets giving up any of their 1939 annexations. Poland will definitely get E Prussia, possibly all of it as some compensation and other parts of its OTL gains from Germany but probably not all. Similarly I'm not sure the German minority in the Czech republic will all be deported either but their likely to lose all claims for reunification with Germany.
If there are no shared occupation zones in Germany then the Soviets are going to be deeply unhappy. Also that raises the question of how Germany is governed. The allies aren't going to be willing to allow self-government until their sure that Germany is properly de-Nazified and has a much more secure democratic regime. [Which is unlikely to occur without a period of international control]. Their also likely to want strict limits on the German military and armament industry and possibly in the early stages on their industry as a whole. OTL Western Germany was only formed when the three controlling powers gave up authority to the Germans themselves and that was in part because they wanted to secure German support in the on-going cold war. W Germany wasn't allowed to rearm until 1955 IIRC
Has such there would have to be some unified international control of Germany and the Soviets will want a say in this. If the western powers try and deny them that it might mean war. If it doesn't the Soviets have the propaganda tool that the western allies are allowing a reunited Germany to threaten eastern Europe again.
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Dan
Warrant Officer
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Post by Dan on Oct 14, 2018 7:43:05 GMT
If I recall correctly, I think the biggest fear that the WAllies had around a coup against Hitler succeeding would be if someone competent took over instead.
By that stage of the war, the result was, in my opinion, inevitable, the only question was how much of Germany would US/UK/France etc take and how much would the Soviets take.
ITTL, this situation works out better for everyone except Stalin, although it would depend when the allied occupation zones were decided upon, as these may still lead to the creation of East Germany.
If the occupation zones are as OTL, then it's a bonus for Stalin as he's getting all of this territory "for free", although the Russians were just about on Polish territory by the time the POD took place.
I think the Soviets would still take Warsaw by the proposed VE day, so getting them out of Poland will prove nigh on impossible unfortunately.
If you could have a POD around 1942-43 then it's entirely feasible.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 18, 2018 19:55:40 GMT
If I recall correctly, I think the biggest fear that the WAllies had around a coup against Hitler succeeding would be if someone competent took over instead. I agree. Hitler was their ace in the hole because he was incompetent yet had all that authority. If German generals had fought the war they wanted to, they might not have won in the end, but the whole war would have been more costly for the WAllies. |
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Post by eurowatch on Oct 18, 2018 20:18:09 GMT
If I recall correctly, I think the biggest fear that the WAllies had around a coup against Hitler succeeding would be if someone competent took over instead. I agree. Hitler was their ace in the hole because he was incompetent yet had all that authority. If German generals had fought the war they wanted to, they might not have won in the end, but the whole war would have been more costly for the WAllies. Depends on when you are talking about since it was only towards the end of the war he lost it. Prior to that he let his generals wage the war the way wanted or did come With some good ideas (Kiev was due to his insistence). And it wasn't like the WAllies weren't trying to assassinate him, he just had a Divine amount of luck. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 19, 2018 0:07:26 GMT
I agree. Hitler was their ace in the hole because he was incompetent yet had all that authority. If German generals had fought the war they wanted to, they might not have won in the end, but the whole war would have been more costly for the WAllies. Depends on when you are talking about since it was only towards the end of the war he lost it. Prior to that he let his generals wage the war the way wanted or did come With some good ideas (Kiev was due to his insistence). And it wasn't like the WAllies weren't trying to assassinate him, he just had a Divine amount of luck.
I don't know. He was mis-managing the economy and military development before the war, helped by colleagues such as Goring. While he supported Manstein's sickle cut through the Ardennes he didn't produce a lot less of merit and it was his determination that meant the attack on Moscow continued when many of the generals wanted to hunker down in more defensive [and suppliable] positions. Stalingrad was largely his work as well, ditto with Kursk and then all the no retreat orders.
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Oct 19, 2018 3:49:13 GMT
No Hitler and Germany fighting better just means a nuked Germany in late '45/early '46. On the plus side, dim-bulb Western leftists won't scream about the use of nukes being "racist" in this world...
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 19, 2018 11:14:34 GMT
No Hitler and Germany fighting better just means a nuked Germany in late '45/early '46. On the plus side, dim-bulb Western leftists won't scream about the use of nukes being "racist" in this world...
Agree that, unless its very early there's no real chance of changing the outcome and Germany is likely to see more destruction, possibly including nukes if the change occurs early enough. However the thing is its also going to mean more allied deaths as well as more civilians.
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