James G
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Post by James G on Jun 26, 2019 8:37:37 GMT
Nope. Just a humorous remark. The Tower of London, officially Her Majesty's Royal Palace and Fortress of the Tower of London, is a historic castle located on the north bank of the River Thames in central London. The castle was used as a prison from 1100 (Ranulf Flambard) until 1952 (Kray twins), although that was not its primary purpose. Despite its enduring reputation as a place of torture and death, popularised by 16th-century religious propagandists and 19th-century writers, only seven people were executed within the Tower before the World Wars of the 20th century. Executions were more commonly held on the notorious Tower Hill to the north of the castle, with 112 occurring there over a 400-year period. In the First and Second World Wars, the Tower was again used as a prison and witnessed the executions of 12 men for espionage. Today, the Tower of London is one of the country's most popular tourist attractions. Under the ceremonial charge of the Constable of the Tower, and operated by the Resident Governor of the Tower of London and Keeper of the Jewel House, the property is cared for by the charity Historic Royal Palaces and is protected as a World Heritage Site. I didn't know it was still a prison in WW2. If Hitler had been a British captive he could have ended up there. As to Lukashenko, he's injured. I imagine he would be in a guarded military hospital somewhere in Poland or on a ship maybe. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 26, 2019 13:42:22 GMT
The Tower of London, officially Her Majesty's Royal Palace and Fortress of the Tower of London, is a historic castle located on the north bank of the River Thames in central London. The castle was used as a prison from 1100 (Ranulf Flambard) until 1952 (Kray twins), although that was not its primary purpose. Despite its enduring reputation as a place of torture and death, popularised by 16th-century religious propagandists and 19th-century writers, only seven people were executed within the Tower before the World Wars of the 20th century. Executions were more commonly held on the notorious Tower Hill to the north of the castle, with 112 occurring there over a 400-year period. In the First and Second World Wars, the Tower was again used as a prison and witnessed the executions of 12 men for espionage. Today, the Tower of London is one of the country's most popular tourist attractions. Under the ceremonial charge of the Constable of the Tower, and operated by the Resident Governor of the Tower of London and Keeper of the Jewel House, the property is cared for by the charity Historic Royal Palaces and is protected as a World Heritage Site. I didn't know it was still a prison in WW2. If Hitler had been a British captive he could have ended up there. As to Lukashenko, he's injured. I imagine he would be in a guarded military hospital somewhere in Poland or on a ship maybe. Might he end up in The Hague to face trail in the International Criminal Tribunal for World War III (ore what is will be named). |
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Jun 26, 2019 19:12:09 GMT
I didn't know it was still a prison in WW2. If Hitler had been a British captive he could have ended up there. As to Lukashenko, he's injured. I imagine he would be in a guarded military hospital somewhere in Poland or on a ship maybe. Might he end up in The Hague to face trail in the International Criminal Tribunal for World War III (ore what is will be named). It is possible. WW3 it is because it has been a global conflict. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Jun 26, 2019 19:13:39 GMT
One Hundred and Ninety–Six
There wasn’t just one small collection of like-minded members of the Security Council of Russia who were meeting secretly away from the formal gatherings to discuss joint approaches and dishing the dirty on others. FSB Director Bortnikov had discovered that away from his group, there was a second group who had their own private talks. While not exactly by chance, though not something that was being directly sought, FSB officers ended up monitoring a meeting where Prime Minister Ivanov hosted both the Foreign Minister and also the head of the GRU: Kozak and Shlyakhturov. This trio had a lot of unpleasant things to say about those whom he was spending time with but also him too.
As can be expected, he was rather upset to hear those things said – especially from the previously non-hostile Ivanov – though through his anger, Bortnikov also saw opportunity. How that would play out, how he could turn this all to his advantage, was what he had been pondering over when he and everyone else was called in again for another Security Council gathering. Minsk had been entered and then quickly taken by NATO forces. Soon afterwards, they’d snatched President Lukashenko as well. Like so much else, none of this was supposed to happen. It all came as another unwelcome surprise for him and everyone else.
It was at this meeting where Security Council head Patrushev chose to reveal the contents of the latest communication sent by the Americans. It had been held back from some members – Bortnikov among them – until now. He learnt that after the Belorussian gas attack on the Americans outside of Minsk, there had been a direct threat to Russia made over the Washington-to-Moscow Hot-Line. They’d threatened the Rodina with nuclear attacks if there was further use of chemical weapons. Such strategic strikes weren’t alluded to, weren’t hinted at but specifically stated in clear language. Bortnikov’s immediate reaction upon hearing this was just like those over several of his colleagues who were hearing this for the first time too: rage.
How dare they!
We’ll do the same back!
However, he also had the presence of mind to notice the non-reaction from others. Bortnikov was able to see who had previous knowledge of that message. Putin – obviously –, Kozak, General Makarov, Patrushev and Shlyakhturov were those already in the know. None of them were among those in Bortnikov’s group of allies. Among those who looked to him as a leader now, Defence Minister Zubkov hadn’t been informed until now either. Bortnikov truly shared the man’s clear outrage at not being told of this as he read that on his face. Putting aside all his own plots and plans, Bortnikov believed that it was only right that the nation’s defence minister should have been told this beforehand. That hadn’t been the case though.
After this, things got interesting… in the Chinese sense.
The reason why the moment to do this now had been chosen became apparent. It was all about a decision to be made to use gas once again.
It had been the Belorussians who had attempted to inflict serious casualties on the US Army and degrade its fighting potential by employing VX. However, while all of those involved in the process of the partially successful attack had been Belorussians, the hand of Russia, the Security Council, was behind this. Just because those at the sharp end didn’t know they were acting for Russia didn’t mean that they weren’t. Lukashenko himself, the dictator who at that time was in his last days as Belarus’ leader, wasn’t the one ultimately behind that. It was these men here in Moscow, Bortnikov among them, who had signed off on the attack. The idea had been that the Americans could face serious issues when hit with gas: it was hoped that a couple of combat brigades, even a division, might be knocked out of action. Any response was to fall on the Belorussians too.
Patrushev spoke of a series of chemical weapons strikes to take place. The plan was to unleash gas against non-American troops in both Belarus and Latvia. Troops from the smaller NATO countries were to be deliberately targeted. Those undertaking the attack would once more be exclusively non-Russian with Belorussians and Moscow-linked Militia the ones who would get their hands dirty. There were untraceable stocks of chemicals, all with the planted fingerprints of others (metaphorical prints) on them, to be used. Civilian casualties were expected to occur, though those were unimportant. The intention was to force several nations among NATO and the wider Coalition to have their appetite for continuing the war crumble remarkably once this occurred.
Putin asked for thoughts on this from his top-tier people.
Kozak was the first to speak up. He pounced on this idea, giving it his full support. The United States hadn’t used nuclear weapons when its own troops were gassed, he said, and they wouldn’t even consider doing so for those smaller countries. With a sneer, he reeled off the names of such ‘little’ nations – Belgium, the Czech Republic and Hungary – who the Americans would see their troops gassed and do nothing about it. When nothing was done, NATO’s war effort would fracture. He was convinced this would work and even asked why it wasn’t done sooner. Afterwards, NATO would come cap in hand begging for a diplomatic solution to the war.
Reshetnikov attempted to say something in response but no one would discover what it was. He’d taken over the SVR after Fradkov had had his ‘accident’ and found that that organisation’s claws had been clipped. His respect among the others was rather low. That was especially true when it came to General Makarov. The armed forces C-in-C interrupted him before Reshetnikov got a few words out and urged caution. He wasn’t opposed to the usage of gas but spoke of all of the Russian reservists deployed forward and their aged chemical protection gear. Russia could easily end up coming off with far more casualties than the better-prepared NATO.
Taken by surprise, Bortnikov witnessed outbursts of stringent objection to this plan coming from both Shoygu and the defence minister. The Minister for Emergency Situations joined with Zubkov in stating that this was a foolish and dangerous idea. Shoygu’s people were still overwhelmed with addressing the fallout from that biological weapons leak and he expressed concern over whether the wind blew the wrong way and spread nerve gas into Russia. The defence minister spoke of Makarov’s reservations about the danger to Russian soldiers but more so rejected what Kozak was saying about the Americans doing nothing in response. Neither of them supported this and the strength of their objections was something he had seen in private on other matters yet Bortnikov hadn’t expected them to do so in public like this.
Whether others were going to speak up – Ivanov, Bortnikov’s co-conspirator General Gerasimov and also Shlyakhturov – wasn’t something that the answer was going to be discovered. A full-on argument commenced between Kozak on one side and Shoygu & Zubkov on the other. The foreign minister told Shoygu that the effects of the bio-leak should long ago have been properly addressed: he personally had failed to see this was done properly. As to the defence minister, Kozak told him that his real concern should be on finding out who was responsible for that failure last week of the Volk operation in Belarus and when it came to worrying about Russian troops dealing with gas, Zubkov should get control of things properly to make sure that they were prepared. That gave it back as good as they got it, tearing into all of Kozak’s previous assertions about NATO being on the brink of internal collapse – each time which had been proved to be false – and his current promise that the use of gas would this time cause that.
Previous arguments among the Security Council had been halted by Patrushev. Bortnikov saw Putin touch his arm briefly when he was about to do this. There was no call for order and to respect the presence of the president. The argument did die down though it did get rather personal throughout. Bortnikov waited for Putin to then announce a course of action to be taken in reflection to all of these comments. That didn’t happen. Instead, Shlyakhturov turned the meeting to something else when he asked Patrushev if they could discuss the continued domestic troubles in Western Russia. Ivanov was turned to and instructed to bring them up to speed on the anti-war marches going on. This wasn’t his usual brief but he followed orders and did so. Bortnikov was no fan of the man though had to admit that he was on top of things here. He himself was asked by Putin to list further FSB actions with regard to this and did so. It was Makarov’s turn for questioning next. He informed the Security Council upon request about that state of all of those reservists who had taken an extraordinary time to get prepared to see war yet were now arriving on the Russian-Belorussian border and also into Latvia. They couldn’t preform any serious offensive task, he was sorry to say, but they were digging-in and were getting ready to stop a drive on Smolensk or Tallinn by NATO’s tanks. NATO was bombing them already yet they were capable of holding out for some time. Patrushev had questions about numbers of desertions. Those were few, came the response, and the only real issue with anything like that had been the earlier failure from thousands to answer the call to mobilise: now in the field, those men on the frontlines were going to fight to defend the Rodina.
Kozak brought them back to the gas issue again. That was what they were here to discuss and, still smarting from the verbal tirade he’d taken, he wanted to see a resolution to the question. He wanted to win the argument, Bortnikov believed.
Were chemical weapons going to be used again?
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oldbleep
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Post by oldbleep on Jun 26, 2019 21:49:34 GMT
Were chemical weapons going to be used again? This is not going to end well. |
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Post by initiation on Jun 26, 2019 23:19:49 GMT
Jeez. Using more gas would not go down well. Would they risk attacks against other nuclear states (UK/France)...
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lordbyron
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Post by lordbyron on Jun 27, 2019 0:16:54 GMT
This would be stupider than Japan deciding to attack Pearl Harbor and, probably, will lead to nuclear warfare at worst (do they think the Biden administration is stupid?!?), James G ... The difference between Japan's attack on Pearl and this is, well, that the whole world would resemble the aftermath of The Day After, Threads, or Protect and Survive (a TL on AH.com; people on here ought to read it, if they haven't already)... Waiting for more... |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Jun 27, 2019 3:57:16 GMT
Jeez. Using more gas would not go down well. Would they risk attacks against other nuclear states (UK/France)... I don't think that they'll dare to do that. They'll be targeting non-nuclear states, and presumably the small ones too because a country like Germany or Italy has the industry to very quickly be able to retaliate. Poland also doesn't make much sense as a target because, well, it's Poland and they'll fight on to the last. But yes, this is another typical example of a dictatorship thinking that Western countries are weak and don't have a backbone of the will to fight, even though history proves quite the opposite. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Jun 27, 2019 8:40:06 GMT
Were chemical weapons going to be used again? This is not going to end well. If it goes ahead, yes, if. Jeez. Using more gas would not go down well. Would they risk attacks against other nuclear states (UK/France)... The plan is for the 'little countries' so not them. This would be stupider than Japan deciding to attack Pearl Harbor and, probably, will lead to nuclear warfare at worst (do they think the Biden administration is stupid?!?), James G ... The difference between Japan's attack on Pearl and this is, well, that the whole world would resemble the aftermath of The Day After, Threads, or Protect and Survive (a TL on AH.com; people on here ought to read it, if they haven't already)... Waiting for more... They tested US resolve, judged it weak and aim to proceed with more. I don't think that they'll dare to do that. They'll be targeting non-nuclear states, and presumably the small ones too because a country like Germany or Italy has the industry to very quickly be able to retaliate. Poland also doesn't make much sense as a target because, well, it's Poland and they'll fight on to the last. But yes, this is another typical example of a dictatorship thinking that Western countries are weak and don't have a backbone of the will to fight, even though history proves quite the opposite. There are all those voices at the not-a-Politburo-no-way who are against this for the reason it is foolish and won't work... like every other cunning plan has failed too. |
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forcon
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Post by forcon on Jun 27, 2019 18:20:55 GMT
One Hundred and Ninety Seven
Lukashenko’s regime was gone and much of Belarus had been liberated. What was left of the Belarusian Army rapidly fell apart as NATO airpower pounded them. There was no organised central command structure left and the largest forces that remained operating were those at the battalion level, and even many of those had lost their leaders as they either made to flee to Russia or were killed by NATO commandos, aircraft, or artillery.
US Psychological Operations (PSYOPS) forces were moving heaven and earth to get those last remnants of the Belarusian military to lay down their arms and also to convince the people of Belarus that Lukashenko was gone, whether they liked it or not, and that NATO was now in charge. C-130 aircraft dropped thousands of pamphlets telling the Belarusian people just that, while Radio Free Europe blasted the airwaves with anti-Russian propaganda. The fall of Lukashenko was welcomed in some circles and opposed in others, with many militiamen laying down their arms, and in some cases, joyously greeting NATO troops as their liberators from the oppressive and tyrannical regime.
In other, less idyllic cases, however, resistance was met as poorly-armed but ferocious loyalists to the last vestiges of the regime tried to halt or at least bloody the NATO advance. Casualties, even in small numbers, were considered to be a good thing by these resistors. The objective for them now was not to repulse the NATO advance but to make it stop through its own casualty numbers, but this was a hopeless endeavour after everything V Corps had seen in this war so far.
Men died in great numbers throughout those last days, most of them Belarusian but some American, French, Italian, Polish, and other nationalities as well. It was effectively all over, NATO commanders reasoned, so why oh why could the Belarusians not see that yet? Those that fought back killed some of the hated invaders and then died themselves and after everything the troops had seen, many remarked that t looked rather pointless.
Why should so many die now at this late stage, when the result of World War III was already determined?
Although the Belarusian State had all but collapsed, Allied forces had yet to reach the Russian border. V Corps began to race towards the border region, seeking to eliminate what was left of the 1st Guards Tank Army and the 36th Army before they could escape back into Russia, where they would not be pursued.
The last remnants of the Lukashenko regime were taken down as NATO troops patrolled the streets, but that territory between Minsk and the border had to be taken. The 1st Cavalry & 1st Armored Divisions raced to the border with the French Army not far behind them, fighting their way through whatever opposition faced them. The goal was to prevent the Russian forces from escaping, and to have a NATO military presence across all of Belarus before an insurgency could gain confidence or get off of the ground.
In an effort to achieve the former objective, NATO airpower pummelled the Russian columns escaping over the border throughout the last days of the battle for Belarus. Helicopter gunships, strategic bombers and tactical fighters all played their part with thousands of tonnes of munitions unleashed on those below, with the Allies suffering minimal losses due to the near total elimination of Russia’s air defence assets.
When NATO failed to totally obliterate the remnants of Russia’s forces in Belarus, General Mattis gambled. A division-sized force containing dozens of units, virtually all eliminated to the battalion size, from various Russian corps-level commands had made it over the border back into Russia, moving along the E-30 Highway. Mattis sent elements of the 35th Armor Regiment careering across the border into the flanks of that rag-tag Russian force.
The fighting took place short of Smolensk and was the only major land engagement on Russian soil; it was a tremendous gamble for Mattis to take, but the risks were, he decided, worth it. Blocking positions were established on the E-30 and the Russians ran straight into those before Allied airpower returned and finished them off, with over four thousand becoming casualties in the space of just six hours, before NATO forces were immediately ordered back over the border into Belarus.
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James G
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Post by James G on Jun 27, 2019 18:25:47 GMT
First it was Sakhalin, then Kola and now Western Russia.
Western troops on Russian soil!
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crackpot
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Post by crackpot on Jun 27, 2019 18:48:40 GMT
Curious as to what the death toll is at this point.... some bloody battles have taken place. Great stuff as usual Gentlemen.
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forcon
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Post by forcon on Jun 27, 2019 19:17:26 GMT
Curious as to what the death toll is at this point.... some bloody battles have taken place. Great stuff as usual Gentlemen. Thank you! To hazard a guess: US KIA: 40,000 military & 5,000 civilian Polish KIA: 25,000 military & 50,000 civilian British KIA: 9,000 military & 600 civilian German KIA: 14,000 military & 1,500 civilian Russian KIA: 250,000 military & 12,000 civilian Belarus KIA: 50,000 military & 50,000 civilian Civilian casualties in Poland, Belarus & Sakhalin are higher because of the fighting taking place there with artillery, air-power etc used in such huge quantities. American, British & German civilian casualties would come from Spetsnaz and air attacks. |
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Post by davidfloyd on Jun 28, 2019 1:39:51 GMT
Wow. An actual invasion (not actually, but that's what the Russians will say) of the Rodina?? Hard for me to see them not retaliating with chemicals in Latvia.
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Jun 28, 2019 5:57:12 GMT
Wow. An actual invasion (not actually, but that's what the Russians will say) of the Rodina?? Hard for me to see them not retaliating with chemicals in Latvia. Well, it was victoriously repulsed by a Russian counterattack (to the Russian rear, of course. That's always the vest direction for counterattacks). But yes, this will be quite a moral blow and will show the Russian leadership that NATO isn't afraid of entering Russia proper. That will be very interesting in their calculations. It means that if they don't make peace, NATO would be willing to push into Russia to come and get them. They no longer have the conventional forces to even attempt to resist that and also don't have the ability to move sufficient industry (or even have it at all) to rebuild their shattered army. That leaves them with only the nuclear option, which will mean a loss as well. And in thwt case, it won't just be the responsible parties themselves but their families as well. The only other option is retaliation and hoping that NATO won't meet it head on. And given the degraded state of Russian air defenses, that would seriously hurt. |
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